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AOC: “It’s a physical impossibility to lift yourself up by a bootstrap, by your shoelaces? It’s physically impossible. The whole thing is a joke.”

Bootzilla

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For anyone actually interested, here's the origin of the phrase. AOC is 100% correct.

The phrase "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" originated shortly before the turn of the 20th century. It's attributed to a late-1800s physics schoolbook that contained the example question "Why can not a man lift himself by pulling up on his bootstraps?" So when it became a colloquial phrase referring to socioeconomic advancement shortly thereafter, it was more or less meant to be sarcastic, or to suggest that it was a nigh-impossible accomplishment. Eventually, however, the phrase's commonly-accepted meaning evolved, and now when we tell people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," it's implying that socioeconomic advancement is something that everyone should be able to do—albeit something difficult. Also: Considering boots with bootstraps (or at least the shoe parts that are commonly called bootstraps, since boots with straps have existed for centuries) weren't popularized until about 1870, the character called Bootstrap Bill from Pirates of the Caribbean, which took place in the late 1700s, is a bit of an anachronism.
 

sahlberg

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For anyone actually interested, here's the origin of the phrase. AOC is 100% correct.
It is a proverb. You are not supposed to take it literally.
Just like jokes. You should not take them literally either. And memes.

I have another one : An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
Oh no! It is a lie, you can still get sick even if you eat an apple every day.
Call MSNBC, we have been lied to all this time.


Crazy left don't understand and takes literally :
1, jokes
2, memes
3, exaggerations
4, proverbs (new entry)
 

Bootzilla

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It is a proverb. You are not supposed to take it literally.
Just like jokes. You should not take them literally either. And memes.

I have another one : An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
Oh no! It is a lie, you can still get sick even if you eat an apple every day.
Call MSNBC, we have been lied to all this time.


Crazy left don't understand and takes literally :
1, jokes
2, memes
3, exaggerations
4, proverbs (new entry)
It's not just inaccurate, though, it's deliberately ironic. It's sarcasm that got lost on people.
 
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Musky_Cheese

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I was raised with very little. We were dirt poor. I didn’t even own boots or boot straps.

My mother died a few years ago. Had only pictures, clothes, and furniture when she died. She didn’t own a home or car. No money or anything to leave her children or grandchildren. Something that she mentioned many times before she passed.

I own a house, cars, land. My wife and I, our children legit want for nothing. I didn’t attend college. Went to work immediately after high school.

So while AOC may feel people can’t come from little and succeed, I and millions of others are proof that isn’t true.

Every day people come to the USA with little and build success. People come from all over the world and don’t get here feeling it was a mistake or they’ve been tricked.

Perhaps if I went to college for economics and could only get a bartender job, I’d feel like AOC. Then again, I would have realized I must have fucked up. To each their own.
 
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sahlberg

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It's not just inaccurate, though, it's deliberately ironic. It's sarcasm that got lost on people.
She was not being sarcastic. She is actually this dumb (and is easily triggered by Trump).
She is actually this dumb and thought she made a great point: showing how Trump was lying.


Here is what would happen if Trump was telling a joke:
Trump: So, An Irishman, a talking dog and the Pope was on the British Airways flight from NY to London ...
AOC: STOP. STOP LYING! That never happened. The Pope has a private jet. He would never fly British Airways.
 
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sahlberg

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It is a proverb. You are not supposed to take it literally.
Just like jokes. You should not take them literally either. And memes.

I have another one : An apple a day keeps the doctor away.
Oh no! It is a lie, you can still get sick even if you eat an apple every day.
Call MSNBC, we have been lied to all this time.


Crazy left don't understand and takes literally :
1, jokes
2, memes
3, exaggerations
4, proverbs (new entry)
Anyway, it is very ironic.
She is using this idiom, and that the physics in it does not work out in the real world, to attack her political opponents that use it to tell people to take charge of their destiny and make their own future.
Not realizing that she herself is the perfect manifestation of this idiom.

She was a dirt poor nobody, working a dead end bartender job with little to no future.
But she saw/got an opportunity and she took it and ran with it.

Now she has build a large and very passionate following. She has made herself the most powerful political voice on the left in US politics. She controls a large part of the narrative of the democratic party and even have the established leaders in the party fear her.
She went from a nobody with no real future to someone once given an opportunity quickly becoming one of the most powerful left voices in american politics.

If that is not a perfect example of this idiom I don't know what is.
And the irony is that she does not realize it.
 

Dev1lXYZ

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I was raised with very little. We were dirt poor. I didn’t even own boots or boot straps.

My mother died a few years ago. Had only pictures, clothes, and furniture when she died. She didn’t own a home or car. No money or anything to leave her children or grandchildren. Something that she mentioned many times before she passed.

I own a house, cars, land. My wife and I, our children legit want for nothing. I didn’t attend college. Went to work immediately after high school.

So while AOC may feel people can’t come from little and succeed, I and millions of others are proof that isn’t true.

Every day people come to the USA with little and build success. People come from all over the world and don’t get here feeling it was a mistake or they’ve been tricked.

Perhaps if I went to college for economics and could only get a bartender job, I’d feel like AOC. Then again, I would have realized I must have fucked up. To each their own.
You won the thread with this post. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
 
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I was raised with very little. We were dirt poor. I didn’t even own boots or boot straps.

My mother died a few years ago. Had only pictures, clothes, and furniture when she died. She didn’t own a home or car. No money or anything to leave her children or grandchildren. Something that she mentioned many times before she passed.

I own a house, cars, land. My wife and I, our children legit want for nothing. I didn’t attend college. Went to work immediately after high school.

So while AOC may feel people can’t come from little and succeed, I and millions of others are proof that isn’t true.

Every day people come to the USA with little and build success. People come from all over the world and don’t get here feeling it was a mistake or they’ve been tricked.

Perhaps if I went to college for economics and could only get a bartender job, I’d feel like AOC. Then again, I would have realized I must have fucked up. To each their own.
My dad had a similar story. He grew up dirt poor in Taiwan and my grandparents had little education, so they had to get by with odd jobs. Even worse, where my dad lived was very unsafe and as the oldest son, he also had to take care of 3 siblings.

However, even though my grandparents were poor, they had strong family values and constantly encouraged my dad, uncle, and aunts to study hard. My dad worked his butt off, got into dental school, and got his degree.

Though his story doesn't end there. He felt that Taiwan didn't have the opportunities he wanted, so he looked towards the US. The thing was that his Taiwanese degree was not eligible in the US, so he had to apply to American dental schools to get a DMD. He eventually got accepted into a dental school (a really good one, at that) and graduated with a DMD. And he did this while learning how to communicate in English as learning a second language in the classroom is nothing like applying your non-native language in real life.
 

Bootzilla

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She was not being sarcastic. She is actually this dumb (and is easily triggered by Trump).
She is actually this dumb and thought she made a great point: showing how Trump was lying.
.
I don't think she was talking to Trump was she? Nor do I think they were making a joke. Most people use the phrase unironically these days.

It's not a meaningful or substantial point, but she is correctly pointing out that using that phrase unironically is pretty dumb.
 
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Bootzilla

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I was raised with very little. We were dirt poor. I didn’t even own boots or boot straps.

My mother died a few years ago. Had only pictures, clothes, and furniture when she died. She didn’t own a home or car. No money or anything to leave her children or grandchildren. Something that she mentioned many times before she passed.

I own a house, cars, land. My wife and I, our children legit want for nothing. I didn’t attend college. Went to work immediately after high school.

So while AOC may feel people can’t come from little and succeed, I and millions of others are proof that isn’t true.

Every day people come to the USA with little and build success. People come from all over the world and don’t get here feeling it was a mistake or they’ve been tricked.

Perhaps if I went to college for economics and could only get a bartender job, I’d feel like AOC. Then again, I would have realized I must have fucked up. To each their own.
Why do people ALWAYS respond to arguments about social trends with anecdotal examples? It really is the core fallacy of American Conservatism.

Like, if someone said "Bees are dying off at an alarming rate, and 90% of them will be gone soon," would you simply respond "I saw a bee once, so you're wrong."

It's a non-point. Social mobility is down 70% in the last 50 years. People are succeeding less. It doesn't mean that no one succeds, but it's moving the wrong way.
 
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Musky_Cheese

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Why do people ALWAYS respond to arguments about social trends with anecdotal examples? It really is the core fallacy of American Conservatism.

Like, if someone said "Bees are dying off at an alarming rate, and 90% of them will be gone soon," would you simply respond "I saw a bee once, so you're wrong."

It's a non-point. Social mobility is down 70% in the last 50 years. People are succeeding less. It doesn't mean that no one succeds, but it's moving the wrong way.
People succeed everyday. Both immigrants and people born in the USA.

AOC and others aren't arguing it doesn't happen enough. They are arguing it is near impossible for the have nots, especially PoC and that the game is rigged.
 
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Bootzilla

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AOC and others aren't arguing it doesn't happen enough. They are arguing it is near impossible for the have nots, especially PoC and that the game is rigged.
No one is arguing it's near impossible. But the game is "rigged" in the sense of being broadly unfair/more difficult for some than others, and I think that's a totally fair point.

I grew up poor. I worked hard, went to college (for a useless major, but whatever), stayed out of trouble, but I still struggled to get a break for most of my 20s. Eventually, I did make it, and I have a nice white collar career now and my own place in the greatest city in the world, and life is good. But I know a lot of people that didn't, and some of them smarter and harder working than me. Shit's hard. We could make it less hard.
 

Tesseract

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75% of individuals will end up in the middle class if they graduate high school and get a steady job, any kind of blue collar job

social mobility is a lousy scam, wanting for recognition and redistribution of opportunity that already exists for everyone
 

Musky_Cheese

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No one is arguing it's near impossible. But the game is "rigged" in the sense of being broadly unfair/more difficult for some than others, and I think that's a totally fair point.

I grew up poor. I worked hard, went to college (for a useless major, but whatever), stayed out of trouble, but I still struggled to get a break for most of my 20s. Eventually, I did make it, and I have a nice white collar career now and my own place in the greatest city in the world, and life is good. But I know a lot of people that didn't, and some of them smarter and harder working than me. Shit's hard. We could make it less hard.
I would say that she and others are arguing that it is near impossible. She has gone as far as to say that no one has ever made a billion dollars. That they could have only stolen a it.

75% of individuals will end up in the middle class if they graduate high school and get a steady job, any kind of blue collar job

social mobility is a lousy scam, wanting for recognition and redistribution of opportunity that already exists for everyone
Yeah I think the stat is if you A) Finish high school B) don't have children until you are married and C) work a full time job you will be in the middle class
 

Bootzilla

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I would say that she and others are arguing that it is near impossible. She has gone as far as to say that no one has ever made a billion dollars. That they could have only stolen a it.
I think you're misrepresenting her argument. She's saying no one has ever made a billion dollars on their own, it always comes as the result of opportunities, support, and the labor of others, who often don't get to share in that success. She is saying that no one is ever truly self-made, and I think that's true.

Yeah I think the stat is if you A) Finish high school B) don't have children until you are married and C) work a full time job you will be in the middle class
But even that doesn't mean what it did. In an era where the average American has less than $1000 in the bank, middle-class can mean living on the brink of disaster.
 
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pennythots

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people tend to take jokes and insults that are directed at them and turn it around to show it has no power over you. like how jim sterling called pc gamers part of the "pcmasterrace" and now it's an actual thing pc gamers say unironically.

on the topic of social mobility and can people make it or not it would be nice if people could share their sources for the rest of us to look at. two people making qualitative statements and going in circles just looks like two pigeons playing chess.
 

Musky_Cheese

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I think you're misrepresenting her argument. She's saying no one has ever made a billion dollars on their own, it always comes as the result of opportunities, support, and the labor of others, who often don't get to share in that success. She is saying that no one is ever truly self-made, and I think that's true.
“No one ever makes a billion dollars. You take a billion dollars,”

Well, you didn’t make those widgets, did you?” Ocasio-Cortez replied. “You employed thousands of people and paid them less than a living wage to make those widgets for you. You didn’t make those widgets. You sat on a couch while thousands of people were paid modern-day slave wages, and in some cases real modern-day slavery depending on where you are in terms of food production.

“You made that money off the backs of undocumented people. You made that money off the backs of black and brown people being paid under a living wage. You made that money off the backs of single mothers — all of these people who are literally dying because they can’t afford to live. And so no one ever makes a billion dollars, you take a billion dollars.”

“And to be ethical, if you’re a billionaire today, the thing that you need to do is give up control and power. So we don’t want your money as much as we want your power — the people, not me, the people (want your power).”


I am not misrepresenting anything.
 

Rran

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also boot-strap, tab or loop at the back of the top of a men's boot, which the wearer hooked a finger through to pull the boots on, 1870, from boot (n.1) + strap (n.).

Circa 1900, to pull (oneself) up by (one's) bootstraps was used figuratively of an impossible task (among the "practical questions" at the end of chapter one of Steele's "Popular Physics" schoolbook (1888) is, "30. Why can not a man lift himself by pulling up on his boot-straps?" and an excellent question it is). By 1916 the meaning of the phrase had expanded to include "better oneself by rigorous, unaided effort." The meaning "fixed sequence of instructions to load the operating system of a computer" (1953) is from the notion of the first-loaded program pulling itself (and the rest) up by the bootstrap. It was used earlier of electrical circuits (1946).


So on one hand, she's right in that it was initially meant to be an impossible task (if not a "joke"). But it's not shoelaces. And more importantly, arguing the origin of a phrase that evolved into its current usage way back in 1916 seems like a really dumb way to criticize the actual concept of what the phrase means.
 

Bootzilla

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Door seems pretty open to me.

People are just advocating for a sturdier door.
I think that a lot of people supporting Trump want this to be the case, but it doesn't square with reality.

In addition to his hardline stance on illegals, Trump has cracked down on literally every legal means of immigration, including asylum, worker visas, and family sponsorship. Beyond this, he's also put a lot of soft barriers in place, slowing visa approvals to the point where they are no longer viable (work visas in particular need to be filled in a timely fashion or the employer will withdraw). Limiting access to immigration services, raising the bar on economic requirements, starting "denaturalization task force" to go after permanent residents and citizens....

I would be all for heightened border security if it was paired with fairer immigration policy that allowed people of all economic classes to come here legally and work, but instead he has definitively moved all of that in the wrong direction.

Immigrants lower crime, they're responsible for around 20% of our small businesses. I want them here, I want them to be allowed here legally.
 

Pagusas

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Interesting, so I guess a boy who’s father died young, raised by a single mother enlisted in the Air Force, and paying his own way through college by working 3 jobs and taking extra courses to graduate faster (and cheaper), then working his way up the career ladder via hard work, long hours, dedication and goal setting, to eventually being wealthy enough to support his entire family and run his own business is just a fairy tale I must have just imagined living.
 
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Whitesnake

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I think that a lot of people supporting Trump want this to be the case, but it doesn't square with reality.

In addition to his hardline stance on illegals, Trump has cracked down on literally every legal means of immigration, including asylum, worker visas, and family sponsorship. Beyond this, he's also put a lot of soft barriers in place, slowing visa approvals to the point where they are no longer viable (work visas in particular need to be filled in a timely fashion or the employer will withdraw). Limiting access to immigration services, raising the bar on economic requirements, starting "denaturalization task force" to go after permanent residents and citizens....

I would be all for heightened border security if it was paired with fairer immigration policy that allowed people of all economic classes to come here legally and work, but instead he has definitively moved all of that in the wrong direction.

Immigrants lower crime, they're responsible for around 20% of our small businesses. I want them here, I want them to be allowed here legally.
I don’t understand how you don’t see the correlation between stricter vetting and safety.
 
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Bootzilla

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I don’t understand how you don’t see the correlation between stricter vetting and safety.
"Stricter vetting" is a comically generous characterization of what I just posted, and immigrants commit major crimes at a lower rate than the population as a whole, so safety isn't the biggest concern on my mind.
 
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