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[Moon_frogger]

If you go out of your way to interpret that paragraph in an incredibly narrow way, sure. But his point is that times changed, things became more complex, and a need for more direction necessitated more linearity. With a more intuitive, coherent world structure, and a map that leverages the GamePad to be as accurate as possible, it becomes easier to come up with an experience similar to the original The Legend of Zelda.

It's easy enough to disagree with that point, certainly, but "to recreate what was done in the original we a peripheral that wasn't available for the original" is a jarringly ridiculous summation of it, and that from-a-high-horse "It's drivel, gentlemen!" declaration is completely unearned.

No honestly, demons souls did it just fine without a second screen, or a map. It's just mindless promotion of the gamepad. There's no high horse involved, you just need to look through the pr speak to see there's nothing at all of substance to his remarks.

 

[littletran22]

at least I still love the new zelda no matter if it is open world or not

 

[deltatheta]

No honestly, demons souls did it just fine without a second screen, or a map. It's just mindless promotion of the gamepad. There's no high horse involved, you just need to look through the pr speak to see there's nothing at all of substance to his remarks.

You seem pretty confident considering it's a game that we know very little about.

 

[Clefargle]

Question:

Did Aonuma ever explicitly use the term "Open World" at E3 or did he speak broadly about the world and how the player approaches it in Zelda U relative to past games? I'm on mobile or I would look for myself, but I seem to remember it being the latter and the gaming press latched onto "open world Zelda".

 

[Moon_frogger]

You seem pretty confident considering it's a game that we know very little about.

My confidence comes from the lack of any other Nintendo game that uses the wii u game pad in essential way. It's all fluff. Convenient, helpful fluff but always gimmicky and never the cornerstone of a games design. I think my confidence comes from having learned to ignore vague hype concerning gimmicky hardware that rarely pans out in the end. Also they've been saying 'we're rethinking Zelda' for the last how many years? Each one brings new ideas but never reinvents the wheel. The trailer was indeed incredible, and Zelda might finally be getting the redesign it needs but I think it's reasonable to be skeptical when they say 'only possible with the wii u gamepad!'

 

[Kai Dracon]

I think it's worth remembering that a game design Nintendo keeps going back to is the Metroid model. Echos of it show up in a lot of games. Pikmin 3 notably invoked some Metroid-ish design elements in its map layout, with areas bending back on themselves and shortcuts opening up as new items are acquired and the story progresses.

I'm suspicious that their thinking with Zelda U is a game which isn't really designed quite like the generic western sandbox template. A sandbox game has a tendency to feel like a large undifferentiated map with "nodes" dotted around it. Each node triggers an event, like a story mission. But the overall world tends to feel samey. I.e. in GTA, you can go on a mission where you blow up half the city, but afterwards you respawn in the same game world that is much the same as it was before.

I could see the new Zelda having a large overworld map that is pretty open to a degree, but still has large sections gated in a metroid fashion. Advancement of the story still required to unlock major portions of the game, not just instanced mission nodes. It just doesn't feel like the Zelda team would want to sacrifice "reveals". The pacing of getting to a new overworld area, a parallel world, a new temple. For the sake of simply having a "go anywhere, do anything" sandbox map.

 

[Ansatz]

That's the only thing I needed to hear, a direct confirmation that Zelda won't adopt mainstream trends, the structure and formula is almost identical in any open world game I play and I don't see anything positive about it. I use GTA Vice City as my point of reference for how a game should be designed and from there the series got progressively worse and now it's unplayable for me. Those games are basically all about realism and immersion, so anything they change/add that improves a game in that way is in conflict and compromises the gameplay, for instance making the city massive means longer drives to get to the next mission, which hurts the experience for me because I don't care about (typically shallow) sandbox elements.

The overworld in 3D Zelda is an interesting topic, I'm not sure what I want it to be and what emotions I want to be triggered as I traverse it. Do I want it to be bombarded with gameplay situations (puzzles, obstacles, enemies) as in Skyward Sword or do I want it to feel like I'm on an adventure in a believable world (as opposed to feeling like a glorified puzzle game)? Honestly Zelda should stick to being Zelda, yes there have been plenty of 3D overworld styles in the past and now they're introducing something different again but at the same time they still felt like they belong in a TLoZ game. I don't want to speculate but I feel even more confident now.

I think it's worth remembering that a game design Nintendo keeps going back to is the Metroid model. Echos of it show up in a lot of games. Pikmin 3 notably invoked some Metroid-ish design elements in its map layout, with areas bending back on themselves and shortcuts opening up as new items are acquired and the story progresses.

I'm suspicious that their thinking with Zelda U is a game which isn't really designed quite like the generic western sandbox template. A sandbox game has a tendency to feel like a large undifferentiated map with "nodes" dotted around it. Each node triggers an event, like a story mission. But the overall world tends to feel samey. I.e. in GTA, you can go on a mission where you blow up half the city, but afterwards you respawn in the same game world that is much the same as it was before.

I could see the new Zelda having a large overworld map that is pretty open to a degree, but still has large sections gated in a metroid fashion. Advancement of the story still required to unlock major portions of the game, not just instanced mission nodes. It just doesn't feel like the Zelda team would want to sacrifice "reveals". The pacing of getting to a new overworld area, a parallel world, a new temple. For the sake of simply having a "go anywhere, do anything" sandbox map.

I always end up drawing parallels to the Metroid series when I think about Zelda overworlds lol. Specifically I guessed alot of things right about Skyward Sword and I based that on Prime 3 and Galaxy, so you're probably on to something here. Maybe Metroid is secretly Nintendo's best series, the solution to overworlds in 3D Zelda is right in front of them!

 

[cackhyena]

My confidence comes from the lack of any other Nintendo game that uses the wii u game pad in essential way. It's all fluff. Convenient, helpful fluff but always gimmicky and never the cornerstone of a games design. I think my confidence comes from having learned to ignore vague hype concerning gimmicky hardware that rarely pans out in the end. Also they've been saying 'we're rethinking Zelda' for the last how many years? Each one brings new ideas but never reinvents the wheel. The trailer was indeed incredible, and Zelda might finally be getting the redesign it needs but I think it's reasonable to be skeptical when they say 'only possible with the wii u gamepad!'

Didn't ZombiU use it pretty effectively?

 

[big_z]

Zelda needs change, aonuma has said it himself and that its the long time die hards holding it back. I really hope he doesn't give in and ends up making just another cookie cutter Zelda.

 

[Cipherr]

Anyone thinking it would was delusional, honestly.

Thank god.

This. I have Skyrim for Skyrim, and GTA for GTA. Don't go trying to turn a franchise into another one, thats fucking stupid as hell.

Zelda needs change

Zelda can change just fine without mimicking shit thats already out. This is not a binary "COPY SKYRIM OR DIE" situation at all. Thankfully they realize that.

And fans aren't holding back a damn thing unless they are the ones writing the code.

 

[Partition]

So basically it sounds like they are just improving on what they always wanted to achieve - a more direct transition from the 2D gameplay to 3D.

In OOT, Hyrule Field was rather small, and had almost nothing to do in it, other than serve the purpose of a hub to connect segregated areas. The two most glaring issues with this was that the areas were too walled off or narrow (Death Mountain comes to mind), which made the game feel too linear and constricted - and Hyrule Field itself was stripped of all the life it had in the previous 2D games.

Of course they made strides in improving the 3D games' overworlds, most notably in Wind Waker, but that was another game that suffered from linearity and lack of content in general.

So hopefully, what the Wii U game does is simply what the first Zelda game did - you are dropped in this huge and dangerous world with little instruction. Linearity is toned down to the point that you aren't told where to go, and some dungeons can be done out of order. But the complexity of design is kept in that there will be walled off areas you will need items to pass - but these walls will look natural in design and blend in with the environment. The segregated areas won't be corridors, like Skyward Sword often felt like, but instead could even serve as smaller hub worlds themselves, or other big open areas.

Items wouldn't have to be exclusively obtained in dungeons either. They should be hidden over the overworld too - or maybe given from sidequests after talking to NPCs. It really sounds like this is the direction they are going in, and if the next Zelda game is anything like this, it will without a doubt be my favorite one.

 

[Alex]

The number one thing Nintendo seems to struggle with, to me, is rewarding exploration and completion. Clinging to coins, 1ups, heart containers, etc since the 80s. I liked the structure of ALBW, but it didn't really help much with some of my complaints as I was still doing elaborate optional dungeons/puzzles and getting a big rupee at the end. (if i want money, ill farm bees, thank you!)

That's what I worry about with an open world. I hope it's far more of a structure thing because I don't trust Nintendo to fill up a big world with interesting areas, story bits and rewards.

 

[Moon_frogger]

Didn't ZombiU use it pretty effectively?

When I said 'Nintendo game' I thought it might be obvious that i meant 'published and developed by Nintendo'. Sorry if I was unclear. And yes, zombiu and Nintendoland both did it very effectively followed by.... Nothing else at all. Tropical freeze actually had black screen down there if I'm not mistaken. I really hope those vague comments prove me wrong but I don't think 'the game isn't out yet' is any real barrier to my skepticism.

 

[cackhyena]

When I said 'Nintendo game' I thought it might be obvious that i meant 'published and developed by Nintendo'. Sorry if I was unclear. And yes, zombiu and Nintendoland both did it very effectively followed by.... Nothing else at all. Tropical freeze actually had black screen down there if I'm not mistaken. I really hope those vague comments prove me wrong but I don't think 'the game isn't out yet' is any real barrier to my skepticism.

The simple things they've done with something like WW is really all I need. That is just icing on the cake that is me playing the game in my bed on the pad. It's a great addition. I don't need anything spectacular done with the pad. I just want a solid Zelda.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Zelda needs change, aonuma has said it himself and that its the long time die hards holding it back. I really hope he doesn't give in and ends up making just another cookie cutter Zelda.

Nah, it'll be different, just not THAT different.


It'll be Zelda after all, making it too drastic would be a mistake.

 

[Number_6]

I don't see anything new here. As soon as he mentioned the inspiration from Zelda 1, I didn't expect GTA or Skyrim style. And I'm glad, both of those are vast and open, but shallow and ultimately boring.

I'm hoping for something more like a 3D Zelda 1, like he introduced.

 

[atr0cious]

When I said 'Nintendo game' I thought it might be obvious that i meant 'published and developed by Nintendo'. Sorry if I was unclear. And yes, zombiu and Nintendoland both did it very effectively followed by.... Nothing else at all. Tropical freeze actually had black screen down there if I'm not mistaken. I really hope those vague comments prove me wrong but I don't think 'the game isn't out yet' is any real barrier to my skepticism.

Pikmin 3, runner up GotY for 2013, and with the stylus update, in the running for Goty 2014, has great uses with the second screen. Hell you can even play Pikmin Snap, setting a way point and then taking pictures from eye level as you pass through the stage, and the stylus update made it a completely different game.

 

[SoaringDive]

I don't see anything new here. As soon as he mentioned the inspiration from Zelda 1, I didn't expect GTA or Skyrim style. And I'm glad, both of those are vast and open, but shallow and ultimately boring.

I'm hoping for something more like a 3D Zelda 1, like he introduced.

Exactly the same thoughts here. I expected a flat Dark Souls, not Skyrim with puzzles and (decent) combat. Especially when he talked about problem solving within the world.

 

[K-A-Deman]

Pikmin 3, runner up GotY for 2013, and with the stylus update, in the running for Goty 2014, has great uses with the second screen. Hell you can even play Pikmin Snap, setting a way point and then taking pictures from eye level as you pass through the stage, and the stylus update made it a completely different game.

Wait, you can use the Go Here function and then switch to Camera?? I Didn't know this...

 

[Munkybhai]

Wait, you can use the Go Here function and then switch to Camera?? I Didn't know this...

I had no idea either! Time to flood the screenshot thread again.

 

[atr0cious]

Wait, you can use the Go Here function and then switch to Camera?? I Didn't know this...

I had no idea either! Time to flood the screenshot thread again.

Yea, I wanted to do like a route based competition, but I never got around to it.

 

[JNA]

So wait, first they said or at least gave the hint that the game was open world "see that mountain yada yada", yet now it says open world won't work the same way other games are?

I'm very confused. Can someone explain this to me. Like, if I were a 4 year old lol.

 

[Anteo]

So wait, first they said or at least gave the hint that the game was open world "see that mountain yada yada", yet now it says open world won't work the same way other games are?

I'm very confused. Can someone explain this to me. Like, if I were a 4 year old lol.

Have you ever played GTA? I played San Andreas and watched a full playthrough of V(seriously). The story is mostly linear, as in "explore anything you want, but get to the next plot point you need to do A, then B opens up and you do that. finally you unlock C and do it". Of course, it mixes up a "now you can do A,B and C in any order to unlock D" here and there
I guessing he doesnt want that. On the other hand I have no idea how Skymir works

 

[keisuke999]

I really hope its just basically the original LoZ. Big world, little direction, burn all the bushes.

 

[Señor Coyote]

Sounds perfect to me. I don't want it to be an completely open experience like Skyrim but I definitely don't want it to be like the sky in Skyward Sword, which was a basically lifeless version Princess Peaches Castle or Gruntilda's Lair from Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[Phreakuency]

Waiting for the "Zelda Wii U decided to go in a different direction than that supposed gameplay footage showed"

As in, no the game won't look that good and no you won't be riding, freely to those distant mountains.

They had to make a huge bang, they did (in my opinion by severely stretching the truth) and now the next 12-24 months consists of scaling back those promises.

 

[SegaShack]

Good. Not into GTA, Skyrim, or Watch Dogs.

 

[Sayad]

I don't care how open the world is long as traveling from one place to the other isn't as boring as it is in every main 3D Zelda game. I loved the land portion of Wind Waker, there was always monsters to fight, obstetrical to traverse and things to explore, reminded me of a LttP's over-world, but then there was also the sea part... Show me a rich dense world and I wont care how big it is, no more horse riding through empty plains please.

 

[KJRS_1993]

I'd love it if it took more cues from Dark Souls than Skyrim.
A huge, interconnected world with very separate and unique environments that is yours to explore from the get go, provided that you can find the tools to reach it.

Also, no overlong tutorial! I can't ever replay Twilight Princess because it's so god damn long until the game gets started.

 

[Soodanim]

I see nothing wrong with what he had said. But I never expected Red Dead Zelda anyway. I just expected open by Zelda standards, and that seems to be what we will get.

 

[Shion]

Zelda needs change, aonuma has said it himself and that its the long time die hards holding it back. I really hope he doesn't give in and ends up making just another cookie cutter Zelda.

Huh?

I don't know what's going on in Zelda communities these days. But when I was a hardcore Zelda fan, and was hanging out in places like Zelda Universe, we were very critical towards both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.

 

[djtiesto]

Aonuma could possibly be talking about how this game won't be as much of a "sandbox" as other open world titles. While some Zelda mechanics encourage that sort of chaos (breaking pots in others' homes) I don't really see Link stealing a horse, killing 40 NPC's, and then dying at the hands of the guards and respawning.

The real issue with the overworld design is striking the right balance between having both the sweeping fields (Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess) and the dense puzzle-y layouts (Link's Awakening, Skyward Sword) all the while allowing the player to have many possible directions to progress in (The Legend of Zelda). A hard task, but if they could pull it off correctly enough it would be awesome.

I like your thinking - getting a game that balances all of these elements would be just what the doctor ordered for the Zelda series.

 

[sciencerob]

I'm glad that it won't be open in the same way as other "open world" games. It makes me more excited for it actually. I hope this fad of demanding open worlds goes away... fast.

 

[Ninjimbo]

All I want is Skyward Sword's content density with a connected overworld. That will please the "immersion" people and it would please me because I want to be solving stuff all the time.

 

[DizzyCrow]

Aonuma on how Nintendo approaches the open world in Zelda Wii U

About the challenge to adapt to an open world
''In the original Legend of Zelda, there was no clear way to lead the main character to his goal. It was something that we entrusted to the players to find by themselves. As the game later expanded into a franchise, the structure of the game worlds became more and more complex – especially with the introduction of 3D – making it necessary for us to point the player in the right direction. Consequently, progression in the games became more linear.

To recreate a similar experience to the original, we have to give the game world a simple structure that players can understand intuitively. In doing so, it’s very important that we make every aspect of the world feel real and physically connected, so that it’s doesn’t look fake.

We can achieve this thanks to the hardware features of Wii U, but to truly get a deep understanding of the game world, we also need a real map that depicts the world as it is. The GamePad is very effective for displaying this, and thus also [for] providing players with a constant hint on where to head to. I think we can safely say that the innovations in this new game are only possible thanks to the Wii U hardware.''

To ensure Zelda Wii U is regarded the same ways as Ocarina of Time
''The innovation of a vast open world could in one sense be seen as a return to the roots of the series. But in returning to these roots, we are also bringing with us all the things we have learned and ways the series has developed over all this time, which will help to create new and exciting gameplay possibilities.''

Source

 

[10k]

The Legend of Zelda: The Half Open World

The feel of open world.

 

[BY2K]

Source

Oh I like that.