• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Rumor Apple Preparing a ‘Portable Hybrid Console’ With a Brand New SoC That Offers Enhanced GPU Performance Increase

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
People comparing hardware with Steam deck, when M1 is even better than Steam Deck offers. The problem will be the overprice from Apple and the games catalog, because Apple will use the current iOS games.

Besides, probably many games will not support the console, its happening with M1 computers. Developers are disabling compatibility with M1 even if the games works perfectly.
Do we have any benchmarks comparing the two? AMD has several chips that beat the m1 at a low power draw.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430





The new MacBooks have a CPU that's better than anything that Intel ever delivered to Apple, probably faster than Alderlake (with just 2 small cores as it should be), with media accelerators various orders off magnitude faster than anything available on the PC segment, and a GPU that should be at least on par with the PS5, probably faster than the SeX.
All this peaking at 60W.


WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THE IBM PC SEGMENT?!!
Do we have any benchmarks on that? "High end gpu" can mean anything, and when Apples $5000 pro computer comes with an RX580...
 
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
Apple is just really the best right now. That's amazing performance. But ... how much will it cost?


EDIT: also nvidia claimed the RTX 3060 laptop was 25% more powerful than the PS5. We discovered that was a lie. Might be the same thing.
Bigger issue is and always be software compatibility and Apple supporting gaming outside of Apple Arcade. I wish they’d implement Vulkan or, barring that, make it much easier to translate Vulkan to Metal. They also need to make the Mac App Store more amenable for gaming both in features and pricing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: reksveks

Kokoloko85

Member
Sep 26, 2019
4,269
5,337
485
If its a decent hybrid with plenty of games then why not? MS got into the industry and Stadia is trying it. I think Stadia, Apple, MS can battle it out, probably Amazon joining soon.

Like passive aggressive Phil Spencer said, he see’s Google and co as the competition not Nintendo and Playstation
 
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
Apple should be funding native ports / remakes of AAA games for Mac that also work on at least iPads and Apple TV’s if not also iPhones. These titles could be cross play and crossbuy with keyboard / mouse and controller support standard across all version within their ecosystem with touch options for iPads / iPhones. Imagine if you could buy GTA VI on iPad and you get something that can be played between keyboard / mouse or controller, and that same game purchase gets you a copy on Apple TV and Mac. Why would you even need a switch?

Of course, they need an Apple TV Pro.… something that competes with PS5 / SeX in power.
 
Last edited:

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
That Mac App Store has been a failure by Apple's standard but yeah, it does seem like there is a lot of work to be done.
Why? Sooner or later it'll be one app store servicing iOS and MacOS, when iOS and MacOS merge into one. Once every Mac is on Mx, that would be the next thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ripeavocado

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,257
4,965
425
Why? Sooner or later it'll be one app store servicing iOS and MacOS, when iOS and MacOS merge into one. Once every Mac is on Mx, that would be the next thing.

In that future, do you think Mac wont let you install apps from outside the app store? I see the blurry of the lines raising more questions around their fee.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dream-Knife
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
Why? Sooner or later it'll be one app store servicing iOS and MacOS, when iOS and MacOS merge into one. Once every Mac is on Mx, that would be the next thing.
The App Store is pretty much already merged. I don’t think iOS and macOS will ever completely merge. They‘ll just have all the same frameworks, APIs, dev tools, apps, and hardware. There will be subtle distinctions in input, UI, and UX that keep them firmly separate. The big difference being that Mac won’t ever be fully under Apple’s walled garden.

Although, I would be lying if I didn’t say that I would love an iMac that was similar to a Surface Studio. These machines need a touch screen
 
Last edited:

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
In that future, do you think Mac wont let you install apps from outside the app store? I see the blurry of the lines raising more questions around their fee.
It'll get murky. Part of me thinks they'd wall it in, but they do have a number of users who still want it to be somewhat open.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
Last edited:
  • Fire
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

Epic Sax CEO

Member
Nov 4, 2019
753
1,498
405
So that's about a rx 560, so yeah "high end GPU" is a 580, which is about 40% faster.

The 32-core says 10.4 TF, which is PS5 class. Impressive if true. Guess on the price? $2500 for 256gb SSD.

Apple isn't selling just the GPU at this price, it's selling a whole complete computer.
This was the notebook used in the slide as a comparison with a 3080 95W (more power than the whole M1max) that Apple claims to be faster: https://www.razer.com/eu-en/gaming-laptops/Razer-Blade-15/RZ09-0409CE53-R3E1
With same storage and RAM it costs U$3,399.99 on Amazon. The new MacBook costs U$3,499 (with a 120fps screen).
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
Apple isn't selling just the GPU at this price, it's selling a whole complete computer.
This was the notebook used in the slide as a comparison with a 3080 95W (more power than the whole M1max) that Apple claims to be faster: https://www.razer.com/eu-en/gaming-laptops/Razer-Blade-15/RZ09-0409CE53-R3E1
With same storage and RAM it costs U$3,399.99 on Amazon. The new MacBook costs U$3,499 (with a 120fps screen).
Actually they were comparing it to the GP66 Leopard 11UG-018 *WITH INTEGRATED GRAPHICS*:

They were comparing dedicated GPU performance to the lenovo legion 5 82JW0012us:

which is a $1000 laptop with a 3050ti and 512gb M.2.

Also keep in mind mobile GPUs do not perform the same as their desktop counterpart.
It has 1650 like performance.
 
Last edited:

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
Actually they were comparing it to the GP66 Leopard 11UG-018 *WITH INTEGRATED GRAPHICS*:

They were comparing dedicated GPU performance to the lenovo legion 5 82JW0012us:

which is a $1000 laptop with a 3050ti and 512gb M.2.

Also keep in mind mobile GPUs do not perform the same as their desktop counterpart.
It has 1650 like performance.
Pretty disingenuous to call a 3050Ti mobile "high end". It gets beaten by the 1660Ti mobile pretty regularly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
Pretty disingenuous to call a 3050Ti mobile "high end". It gets beaten by the 1660Ti mobile pretty regularly.
Apple markets all of their products with disingenuous claims. They create the illusion of premium to sell products to people who don't know any better. They win because the vast majority of laptops and pre-built desktops are put together as cheaply as possible.

They sell a monitor stand for $1000.
 

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
Apple markets all of their products with disingenuous claims. They create the illusion of premium to sell products to people who don't know any better. They win because the vast majority of laptops and pre-built desktops are put together as cheaply as possible.

They sell a monitor stand for $1000.
The thing is, they really have created an excellent chip here, so there's no need to misrepresent. "Our laptop can produce graphics better than these gaming laptops for a fraction of the wattage" would also be true, without lying and claiming a 3050Ti mobile is high end.
 
Last edited:

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
The thing is, they really have created an excellent chip here, so there's no need to misrepresent. "Our laptop can produce graphics better than these gaming laptops for a fraction of the wattage" would also be true, without lying and claiming a 3050Ti mobile is high end.
Power efficiency isn't as marketable.

I also noticed that that is for the M1 pro. They have an M1 Max with 32 cores that they claim is only 25% "relative performance" to an unknown metric. You're just supposed to see the chart and go "oh that's impressive" while the chart actually tells you nothing.


The M1 Max has 375% the performance at full power draw as a 3080 mobile at idle?
 
Last edited:

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
760
1,043
550
Chile
So... after watching today's Apple event. Does anybody here have a doubt that the future in gaming and computing is ARM?

Seriously, it IS to be expected that the next generation consoles (PS6-Xbox something) will have an ARM-based solution as an SOC.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
So... after watching today's Apple event. Does anybody here have a doubt that the future in gaming and computing is ARM?

Seriously, it IS to be expected that the next generation consoles (PS6-Xbox something) will have an ARM-based solution as an SOC.
We were supposed to be in a tablet world now.

ARM has less instructions, so it needs to have more calls for it to do something as opposed to x86. A move to ARM is too big to happen to gaming now that everything besides Switch is x86.

Apple went to ARM for three reasons:
1. Not being dependent on Intel
2. Common architecture to integrate iOS to MacOS
3. Heat. Macs have been notorious for running hot due to preferring aesthetics over performance, and the legacy of Steve Jobs hating fans.
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

Epic Sax CEO

Member
Nov 4, 2019
753
1,498
405
Actually they were comparing it to the GP66 Leopard 11UG-018 *WITH INTEGRATED GRAPHICS*:

They were comparing dedicated GPU performance to the lenovo legion 5 82JW0012us:

which is a $1000 laptop with a 3050ti and 512gb M.2.

Also keep in mind mobile GPUs do not perform the same as their desktop counterpart.
It has 1650 like performance.

When in doubt trust Anandtech: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1701...m1-max-giant-new-socs-with-allout-performance


Yes, Apple compared to a 3050ti... in the case of their midrange M1pro with 16C GPU.
The bigger 32C GPU inside the M1max naturally is much faster and Apple compared it to mobile 3080.
Plus, apparently these things have 32MB to 64MB cache between the GPU and the memory connectors, something like AMD Infinite Cache.

I don't think these GPUs have RT hardware like previous PowerVR architectures did, but Apple can very easily support ML upscale.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
When in doubt trust Anandtech: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1701...m1-max-giant-new-socs-with-allout-performance


Yes, Apple compared to a 3050ti... in the case of their midrange M1pro with 16C GPU.
The bigger 32C GPU inside the M1max naturally is much faster and Apple compared it to mobile 3080.
Plus, apparently these things have 32MB to 64MB cache between the GPU and the memory connectors, something like AMD Infinite Cache.

I don't think these GPUs have RT hardware like previous PowerVR architectures did, but Apple can very easily support ML upscale.
This statement and this graph do not make sense, as according to this chart the 3080 is outperforming it.


Impressive none-the-less. You get the high cost of premium PC gaming with the closed environment of a console.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kuncol02
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
Honestly, I think it’d be smart for Apple to buy GOG and make a big push to get native adaptations of the most popular games from PS360 and PS4 generations. Apple has a history of removing DRM from music, so if they were to buy GOG and convert it to the Apple Arcade Store, it could work out as long as they kept the no DRM policy. They’d buy CD Project Red to use GOG as way to funnel gamers slowly into Mac gaming by giving people crossbuy rights to games they already bought on GOG’s PC client. They could offer games via PC, Mac, Apple TV, iPad, iPhone, cloud subscription, and future mixed reality devices. One purchase gets you a DRM-free copy for each device. All versions support keyboard / mouse and controller in addition to touch and motion controls depending on platform. All platforms track the same achievements and cloud sync saves. Purchasing CD Project Red would also give them some big gaming IPs and a chance to garner good will with gamers if they floated the money to fix Cyberpunk 2077. Apple Arcade+ could evolve into a Game Pass type of service where we get access to cloud gaming on a large selection of titles while they make 4-5 games free to add to our libraries each month. But these titles would be native adaptations of games from other platforms. They’d be slowly bringing their gaming ecosystem up to par with x86 and getting monthly subs to float the bill.

They could do this, but I know it‘s more wish fulfillment than anything.
 
Last edited:

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,236
16,964
660
It'll get murky. Part of me thinks they'd wall it in, but they do have a number of users who still want it to be somewhat open.

They aren't going to give up the software developer market that they are huge with and you can't go walled garden and support that as much of that is based on running tools using their command line terminal/basically linux.
 

TurnOneYeti

Member
Jun 28, 2021
223
594
275
People here think the mascots of the a company worth $58 Billion is going to save it from a company worth $2.4 Trillion? According to a CNBC analysis, Apple's App Store had gross sales of around $64 billion last year.

Big bank take little bank. It's going to be a slaughter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: S0ULZB0URNE

DonJuanSchlong

Spice Spice Baby
Jul 15, 2020
3,838
9,880
745
People here think the mascots of the a company worth $58 Billion is going to save it from a company worth $2.4 Trillion? According to a CNBC analysis, Apple's App Store had gross sales of around $64 billion last year.

Big bank take little bank. It's going to be a slaughter.
*Looks at Apple's history of gaming*


Long history of big titles and amazing attachment rate compared to non-existent gaming...


Big game company, takes non existent gaming company.


Apple arcade has nothing on even Nintendo mobile titles. Weird take.
 

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
People here think the mascots of the a company worth $58 Billion is going to save it from a company worth $2.4 Trillion? According to a CNBC analysis, Apple's App Store had gross sales of around $64 billion last year.

Big bank take little bank. It's going to be a slaughter.
If iPhone didn't kill Nintendo, and iPad didn't kill Nintendo, this won't either. They've had a decade to run Nintendo out of business.
 
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
People here think the mascots of the a company worth $58 Billion is going to save it from a company worth $2.4 Trillion? According to a CNBC analysis, Apple's App Store had gross sales of around $64 billion last year.

Big bank take little bank. It's going to be a slaughter.
Mario has more brand recognition than Mickey Mouse. Those mascots have empire building power. Even if Apple could make something beloved in that vein, they would never be able to assail the power Mario wields in gaming because it’s beyond objective measurement. It’s nostalgia wrapped into a character that has had decades to gestate.

Another point, Apple TV+ (despite having some admittedly good content) is struggling to compete with most streaming services, and Apple is handing it out for free. I love the shows, think some of them are the best currently on air, but I wouldn’t pay for it. I’ve managed to chain 2 years worth of free trials through various means and even at the end, I won’t spend a nickel. There’s your $2.4 trillion company’s attempt at television. Good luck with gaming.

And to clarify, I hope Apple does get into AAA gaming. Their hardware and the ecosystem COULD combine the software polish of a console with the software customizability of a PC while offering a world class experience no matter which of their devices is currently in your pocket, on your desk, or on your TV. That’s an extreme value proposition if they just got out of their asses and put in the work on the software and developer relations side of things. BUT, they’d be competing with Steam, Sony, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon. Nintendo does their own thing and won’t be cannibalized by a corporation currently offering freemium titles turned “free” via a subscription.

I say all this as someone with an intense love for Apple products and ethos. As someone who sold my Switch and currently has no Nintendo products (beat the games I wanted to play). Apple can’t beat Nintendo in AAA gaming.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: S0ULZB0URNE

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Jan 27, 2020
4,436
5,669
660
And they never will. Even if they made a character look exactly like Mario or Zelda, they wouldn’t be able to. And they’ve somewhat half-heartedly tried.… Apple Arcade launched with Oceanhorne 2 after all, which is a poor excuse for a Zelda clone.
We will see.
 

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
Where is this so-called console, though? I see some cool CPUs for their laptops and PCs, but no handheld or console here.
 
Aug 16, 2015
221
137
330
United States
Where is this so-called console, though? I see some cool CPUs for their laptops and PCs, but no handheld or console here.
Somebody made up a rumor based on a fantasy, spit this drivel out in an article to try and engage in some wish fulfillment, and then it didn’t happen because it likely doesn’t exist. The person that made up this rumor is now depressed and liable to kill themselves to regain their honor.
 
  • Triggered
Reactions: S0ULZB0URNE

rnlval

Member
Jun 26, 2017
1,375
1,123
460
Sector 001
gpucuriosity.wordpress.com
This statement and this graph do not make sense, as according to this chart the 3080 is outperforming it.


Impressive none-the-less. You get the high cost of premium PC gaming with the closed environment of a console.
Ampere's Samsung 8 nm (based on refined 10 nm) vs Apple's TSMC 5 nm UV.
 
Last edited:

rnlval

Member
Jun 26, 2017
1,375
1,123
460
Sector 001
gpucuriosity.wordpress.com
We were supposed to be in a tablet world now.

ARM has less instructions, so it needs to have more calls for it to do something as opposed to x86. A move to ARM is too big to happen to gaming now that everything besides Switch is x86.

Apple went to ARM for three reasons:
1. Not being dependent on Intel
2. Common architecture to integrate iOS to MacOS
3. Heat. Macs have been notorious for running hot due to preferring aesthetics over performance, and the legacy of Steve Jobs hating fans.
Apple's M1 has 8 instruction decoder units that easily cover the separate load/store and math instructions. Apple's M1 is not ARM Ltd (UK)'s ARM RTL IP designs.
M1's 8 instruction decode wide resulted in large out-of-order buffers.

X86 instructions have embedded (fused) load/store and math instructions.

Intel CoffeeLake has five X86 instruction decode units i.e. 1 complex, four simple. Not including instructions fetched from trace cache.
AMD Zen 2/3 has four symmetric X86 instruction decode units. Not including instructions fetched from trace cache. When AMD hits TSMC's 5 nm with Zen 4, AMD needs to expand the decoder unit count e.g. convert instruction fetch units (from trace cache) into X86 decoders.
 
Last edited:

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,309
1,521
1,045
Apple's M1 has 8 instruction decode wide that easily cover the separate load/store and math instructions. Apple's M1 is not ARM Ltd (UK)'s ARM RTL IP designs.

X86 instructions have embedded(fused) load/store and math instructions.
You're saying Apple forked from ARM and have their own instruction set now?
 

rnlval

Member
Jun 26, 2017
1,375
1,123
460
Sector 001
gpucuriosity.wordpress.com
You're saying Apple forked from ARM and have their own instruction set now?
Separate the instruction set from micro-architecture implementation. AMD Zen executes the same X86 instruction set like on AMD Bulldozer but with different performance results.

Apple's core CPU designers are from PA-SEMI (engineers from DEC Alpha EV4 and DEC's StrongARM).

AMD has engineers from DEC Alpha EV6.
Intel has engineers from DEC Alpha EV7 and EV8 (under Compaq).

The idealogy for large out-of-order and many instruction decoders is from DEC's Alpha.
 
Last edited:

MrFunSocks

Member
Jul 9, 2020
4,642
8,351
665
If its a decent hybrid with plenty of games then why not? MS got into the industry and Stadia is trying it. I think Stadia, Apple, MS can battle it out, probably Amazon joining soon.

Like passive aggressive Phil Spencer said, he see’s Google and co as the competition not Nintendo and Playstation
Stadia is google if you didn't know. Google, Apple, MS, and Amazon is what you're saying.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Jun 6, 2013
2,309
6,709
955
Apple markets all of their products with disingenuous claims. They create the illusion of premium to sell products to people who don't know any better. They win because the vast majority of laptops and pre-built desktops are put together as cheaply as possible.

They sell a monitor stand for $1000.
Man you have no idea idea what you're talking about. I am a software engineer and have been working in the field for many many years. This tired line is simply 100% false. Apple is wiping the floor with the competition right now.

Your posts above are all completely false, saying Apple is comparing their CPUs to cheap laptops and that AMD beats the M1 at a "low power draw." Perhaps they have something with slightly better overall performance, but not at power draws at the level of the M1, and these new CPUs look like they will be quite a bit better than the M1. Intel and AMD are "in trouble", at least in terms of having anything competitive at the moment (hey I worked at Intel too back in the day).

The balance of performance and power draw on the Apple stuff is so far ahead of the rest of the industry it's ridiculous. There is no machine on the planet that compares, and I don't even give two :lollipop_poop:s about Apple. I wish they had better competition. PC guys clinging to this "Apple is overpriced garbage!" narrative is bizarre to me, because its so easily demonstrably untrue. I seriously get baffled reading stuff like this. I guess maybe it's just defensive.
 

MrFunSocks

Member
Jul 9, 2020
4,642
8,351
665
So... after watching today's Apple event. Does anybody here have a doubt that the future in gaming and computing is ARM?

Seriously, it IS to be expected that the next generation consoles (PS6-Xbox something) will have an ARM-based solution as an SOC.
ARM is definitely the future, and one that Apple are just knocking out of the park. I've got a Samsung Galaxy Book 2 Windows10onARM tablet/surface and it's fantastic and it was one of the first Win10onARM devices. x64 emulation is coming to retail versions soon too. They still need to do a lot of work to get their compatibility/emulation as good as Apples Rosetta though, because as it is emulated apps run noticeably worse and destroy the battery.

Running ARM apps though I get ridiculously good battery life out of it.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
1,735
2,031
430
saying Apple is comparing their CPUs to cheap laptops
I used the computer that was listed in their chart. I never compared their CPU, but rather their GPU, which again, the model was listed in the chart.

and that AMD beats the M1 at a "low power draw."
I never said this. Apple's processors are clearly lower power draw (45w vs 15)

Perhaps they have something with slightly better overall performance, but not at power draws at the level of the M1, and these new CPUs look like they will be quite a bit better than the M1. Intel and AMD are "in trouble", at least in terms of having anything competitive at the moment (hey I worked at Intel too back in the day).
Agreed.
The balance of performance and power draw on the Apple stuff is so far ahead of the rest of the industry it's ridiculous. There is no machine on the planet that compares, and I don't even give two :lollipop_poop:s about Apple. I wish they had better competition. PC guys clinging to this "Apple is overpriced garbage!" narrative is bizarre to me, because its so easily demonstrably untrue. I seriously get baffled reading stuff like this. I guess maybe it's just defensive.
I guess paying $400 for 16gb of memory, $400 extra for 1tb of memory, $600 wheels, $1000 monitor stands, etc are all reasonably priced. Added bonus you the user can't repair any of it due to the use of glue and other design choices. Every single apple product I have owned has had terrible hardware issues. Never again.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Jun 25, 2018
4,071
3,793
725
Stuck in 1Q84.
A Mac Mini with an M1 Pro has around the same specs as a PS4 Pro/One X and likely beats it because of Apple's insane single-thread perf.

A Mac Mini with an M1 Max would be a PS5/XSX competitor.

Sadly there is no Mac Mini with either of those, but if M1 Max only dissipates, what, 60 watts, it very well might be.

I am not a pro-Apple user, but when it comes to processors, they are quite literally operating in a vacuum when it comes to performance - Its literally years ahead of the curve.

Just jokingly saying M1 Max is RTX 3080 performance is not only insane to claim - But Apple does have a track record of proving these claims quite literally.

Its nuts. Its almost sad that their hardware isn't marketed for gaming - An M1 Max based console is literally a competitor to PS5/XSX.