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Apple removes Fortnite from app store after Epic launches new payment system (Update: removed from Google Play store too)

rockyt

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here the thing though. Which need the other more. Does epic need Apple or Google more than apple and Google need Epic. I dont think Google and Apple care all that much. The money they make from Epic is probably a drop water in a bucket. I dont see people buying the phones to play just epic games or the avg person going out of their way to download the game. What i see will happen is people will play other games and Apple and Google will make up the money lost from other games.

Basically I think Epic barking up the wronge tree since I feel they need Apple and Google more than they need Epic.
 
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Dr Bass

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They coming for Console’s next if they can get away with it on IOS/Android.

I'd seriously doubt it. Consoles are not general computing devices like tablets and phones are.

Do people remember what Microsoft got hammered by the government for in the 90s? Installing their web browser on their operating system by default.

What would happen if Microsoft said ANY Windows software must be installed through the Microsoft Store. No Steam, no downloads, no software directly from vendors, nothing. EVERYTHING in history through the Microsoft store. Who here wouldn't have a problem with that?

So it is for the iOS App Store.
 
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nephilimdj

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So, the company that buys off exclusivity deals for EGS is now complaining about "predatory market practices"?

Worst yet, a Tencent funded company is trying to compare this to 1984?

Man, fuck Apple, but jeez

Are you new to phones?
Amazon tried for years with $1 and free apps to steal users away from Google play, they tried exactly the same thing EGS did and failed.
Heck at some points amazon would give you $5-10 of credit for free for the app store.

I think I still have $2-3 on my app account I havnt used for 5 years.

Not to mention all the shady app stuff google does, like how most 5-7 year old tv's nolonger have working youtube apps because they didn't support ads. they purposely bricked a feature.
 
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iorek21

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Are you new to phones?
Amazon tried for years with $1 and free apps to steal users away from Google play, they tried exactly the same thing EGS did and failed.
Heck at some points amazon would give you $5-10 of credit for free for the app store.

I think I still have $2-3 on my app account I havnt used for 5 years.

Not to mention all the shady app stuff google does, like how most 5-7 year old tv's nolonger have working youtube apps because they didn't support ads. they purposely bricked a feature.

Still a hypocritical move from Epic, specially by trying to incite players into their fight.
 

HE1NZ

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It really isn't the same, as Apple certainly don't QA test every game and patch before they go live on their store - as console platforms do for games. Their phones are also mostly made from the same global contract manufacturers and parts that any no-brand Chinese handset running Android can have, other than maybe the processors, but even that is still using the same ARM instruction set, everyone else uses because its from an Acorn/BBC micro. Smartphones and tablets are just the same ubiquitous personal computing device in the way a PC and a Mac are, hence why retail hardware is also a devkit - and the hardware is always sold off contract at a profit.

Consoles on the other hand are highly bespoke devices designed mainly for one primary task: gaming. Consoles are sold at either a loss or small profit for the first years, and even have prototype hardware in the form of devkits, maybe 2 years before the retail product reaches commodity pricing, that may have cost over 10-20x the cost of launch hardware price when the developer first received it.

The arrangement is designed to maximise the capability of the consumer hardware to last a generation of 5-7years ,and is a risky venture. There is no fixed monopoly with incremental upgrades like phones/pcs, as every console generation each platform starts at zero, and the market is wide open for anyone to come and join.

Unlike smartphones, console platform holders need to bring lots of content themselves to move customers to purchase the device, and developers benefit from being associated with that content on that platform, to further justify the license cut.
Console platforms earn their cut in exchange for the high risks they take on each generation, and aren't able to just dial-it-in with an incremental evolution smartphone with a new digit name and sit back for the 30%.

The biggest innovations the consumer gets in the console space is the hardware and software that a platform holder brings, whereas on smartphone the biggest innovations are the hardware parts - like a new camera sensor in an iPhone, made by Sony - or the software that is produced by external developers.

Console hardware risks and platform exclusives risks need the license fee for a viable business plan. Smartphones do not need revenue from an app store to be viable hardware businesses.
You're contradicting yourself. If Apple doesn't QA every app it means less barriers, more freedom to sell apps on their platform. All they ask for is a fee and you can sell pretty much everything, but on PS4 you're gonna have to go through certification and Woke censorship and such, convince Sony that your game is good enough for their holy platform. And consoles don't start with zero, unless the manufacturer designes it without backwards compatibility. Next gen consoles are going to run all digital downloads you've purchased on the previous systems.

You can't be serious about consoles being less of a computing devices than a smartphones. Consoles are literally PCs with closed architecture. And smartphones are that in a pocket. Your defence for consoles won't stand if Epic somehow wins over Apple and then comes after Sony.
 

hemo memo

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Epic lawyers has been watching too much Suits or something? They’ll get absolutely destroyed by Apple and Google lawyers. Why not file a suit against Sony and Microsoft too aren’t they doing the same? Or because they made a deal with them but Apple and Google refused?

No people. A multibillion corporation is not your friend. No hero in this story.
 

hemo memo

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You're contradicting yourself. If Apple doesn't QA every app it means less barriers, more freedom to sell apps on their platform. All they ask for is a fee and you can sell pretty much everything, but on PS4 you're gonna have to go through certification and Woke censorship and such, convince Sony that your game is good enough for their holy platform. And consoles don't start with zero, unless the manufacturer designes it without backwards compatibility. Next gen consoles are going to run all digital downloads you've purchased on the previous systems.

You can't be serious about consoles being less of a computing devices than a smartphones. Consoles are literally PCs with closed architecture. And smartphones are that in a pocket. Your defence for consoles won't stand if Epic somehow wins over Apple and then comes after Sony.

They are not going against Sony. They will force Sony and Microsoft into an agreement (if not done already) for their ecosystem but not Apple and Google because they couldn’t. They are not fighting this fight for players. Come the fuck on people.
 
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HE1NZ

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They are not going against Sony. They will force Sony and Microsoft into an agreement (if not done already) for their ecosystem but not Apple and Google because they couldn’t. They are not fighting this fight for players. Come the fuck on people.
It's a precedent. They don't have to sue Sony. If Apple loses the monopoly over their own platform, anybody can sue Sony and get the same. Console industry will be dead.
 

prinz_valium

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Epic lawyers has been watching too much Suits or something? They’ll get absolutely destroyed by Apple and Google lawyers. Why not file a suit against Sony and Microsoft too aren’t they doing the same? Or because they made a deal with them but Apple and Google refused?

No people. A multibillion corporation is not your friend. No hero in this story.
Xbox and PlayStation are single purposes platforms. Xbox and PlayStation have not much monopoly power.

Xbox has cross buy enabled. You can buy Vbucks on EGS and use them on Xbox, yet the app is still on the store
 
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Ryu Kaiba

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Multi-Billion and TRILLION dollar corporations fighting over who gets to keep a couple million dollars.

And Fuck epic for trying to rally gamers like we're they're little soldiers in there billionaire squabbles. They don't pay you.
 

smbu2000

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Xbox and PlayStation are single purposes platforms. Xbox and PlayStation have not much monopoly power.

Xbox has cross buy enabled. You can buy Vbucks on EGS and use them on Xbox, yet the app is still on the store
According to Epic, Xbox has a monopoly on Xbox systems and Playstation has a monopoly on Playstation systems.
Just like Apple has a monopoly on ios systems and Google has a monopoly on Android/AOSP systems.

/s

You can also buy Vbucks on EGS and use them on ios and android devices as well.

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-US/vbuckscard
”Redeem a gift card for V-Bucks to use in Fortnite on any supported device!”
 

-Arcadia-

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Wow, the Apple attack video/#FreeFortnite plays upon booting Fortnite (I haven't played for a few days). As if they weren't already, but they are really all-in on this.
 

itsjustJEFF

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I don't understand why Epic is shocked that they got kicked from either App store. You're trying to circumvent their payment structure. What did you think would happen?!?! These stores are there to make money not charities to house your software so you can be the sole one making money.

Think of it like a physical store. BestBuy sells products made by other companies, they get a cut of every product they sell in their store. You can't get around that. If you did try to, they'd boot your product. They're just Trojan horsing a store with-in a store. Of course Apple and Google are gonna be mad, you're playing with their money!
 
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PaintTinJr

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You're contradicting yourself. If Apple doesn't QA every app it means less barriers, more freedom to sell apps on their platform. All they ask for is a fee and you can sell pretty much everything, but on PS4 you're gonna have to go through certification and Woke censorship and such, convince Sony that your game is good enough for their holy platform. And consoles don't start with zero, unless the manufacturer designs it without backwards compatibility. Next gen consoles are going to run all digital downloads you've purchased on the previous systems.

You can't be serious about consoles being less of a computing devices than a smartphones. Consoles are literally PCs with closed architecture. And smartphones are that in a pocket. Your defence for consoles won't stand if Epic somehow wins over Apple and then comes after Sony.
No, they start with a zero install base for Gen X games, as they always have. BC has been distorted to mean cross-gen patch, but BC means playing the old gen game faithful as it was, and even if people have cross-gen capable games, the cross-patch benefit is hardly likely to sell a next-gen console primarily for that reason. Look at the PS3, it had SotC with a cross-gen patch, and yet it was GT HD Concept, Heavenly Sword, Resistance Fall of Man, etc that Sony spent 10s of millions funding as first party games, that made people switch generations, and a generation in which Xbox disruptively launched early and brought an offering that demonstrated how each gen places even the market leader at zero install base at launch day.

You second argument also seems mistaken IMHO - and I say that as someone that remembers all the home console devkit initiatives from the PS1, PS2 and PS3 gen, and how they were about as effective at general computing with open source software, as the Nintendo DS was as at web browsing with its Opera cartridge - that I owned.

People have had plenty of opportunity to make your argument that (playstation)consoles are good at general computing, and failed to make the case with lots of effort cross compiling open source software. The PS1 was a million miles away from a Pentium 100Mhz Pc of the time for general computing, the PS2 Linux kit could barely run GNOME desktop without a browser or program running due to just enough super fast memory for streaming games. And the PS3 OtherOS couldn't provide access to an accelerated GPU because of the special deal they had with Nvidia - to place such advance hardware in a modest priced console :) -, and so Yellow Dog Linux showed the best user experience going, and was about as responsive as a PC consumed by worm virus.

The PS4 might have faired better, but it was still a netbook level CPU, and was again, a design to leverage game performance using a tiny real-time console OS, and nowhere near the experience that a general PC or even a smartphone of that console price could offer in daily computing usefulness - with or without the massive software solutions needed from Sony to facilitate general computing use.

Even if you don't agree with any of that, a smartphone has a touchscreen/virtual keyboard/mouse level input sensor that maps to general computation inputting,. By default a games console ships with a control inputting device specially for gaming, and is a device that is way below the input rate of providing a good general computing experience for even writing 1500 word University assignment with a word processing app. By contrast that is a task that could be achieved better on my original Smartphone from 20years ago.
 
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HE1NZ

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No, they start with a zero install base for Gen X games, as they always have. BC has been distorted to mean cross-gen patch, but BC means playing the old gen game faithful as it was, and even if people have cross-gen capable games, the cross-patch benefit is hardly likely to sell a next-gen console primarily for that reason. Look at the PS3, it had SotC with a cross-gen patch, and yet it was GT HD Concept, Heavenly Sword, Resistance Fall of Man, etc that Sony spent 10s of millions funding as first party games, that made people switch generations, and a generation in which Xbox disruptively launched early and brought an offering that demonstrated how each gen places even the market leader at zero install base at launch day.

You second argument also seems mistaken IMHO - and I say that as someone that remembers all the home console devkit initiatives from the PS1, PS2 and PS3 gen, and how they were about as effective at general computing with open source software, as the Nintendo DS was as at web browsing with its Opera cartridge - that I owned.

People have had plenty of opportunity to make your argument that (playstation)consoles are good at general computing, and failed to make the case with lots of effort cross compiling open source software. The PS1 was a million miles away from a Pentium 100Mhz Pc of the time for general computing, the PS2 Linux kit could barely run GNOME desktop without a browser or program running due to just enough super fast memory for streaming games. And the PS3 OtherOS couldn't provide access to an accelerated GPU because of the special deal they had with Nvidia - to place such advance hardware in a modest priced console :) -, and so Yellow Dog Linux showed the best user experience going, and was about as responsive as a PC consumed by worm virus.

The PS4 might have faired better, but it was still a netbook level CPU, and was again, a design to leverage game performance using a tiny real-time console OS, and nowhere near the experience that a general PC or even a smartphone of that console price could offer in daily computing usefulness - with or without the massive software solutions needed from Sony to facilitate general computing use.

Even if you don't agree with any of that, a smartphone has a touchscreen/virtual keyboard/mouse level input sensor that maps to general computation inputting,. By default a games console ships with a control inputting device specially for gaming, and is a device that is way below the input rate of providing a good general computing experience for even writing 1500 word University assignment with a word processing app. By contrast that is a task that could be achieved better on my original Smartphone from 20years ago.
The fact that a console is underpowered doesn't mean it's not a computer. iPhone wasn't designed to play Fortnite at all, but it works. It doesn't matter. If they were open platforms you could have installed any OS in them and use them as a PC (without any driver support though). They are perfectly capable of having KB/M inputs too. A hacked console have all those capabilities.

I'm pretty sure next gen consoles will be more than just backwards compatible. They will be expansions of previous architectures (like PS4 Pro) and will run all software natively. I think it's pretty much confirmed with Xbox. And it makes them even more similar with iPhones getting yearly updates.
 

PaintTinJr

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The fact that a console is underpowered doesn't mean it's not a computer. iPhone wasn't designed to play Fortnite at all, but it works. It doesn't matter. If they were open platforms you could have installed any OS in them and use them as a PC (without any driver support though). They are perfectly capable of having KB/M inputs too. A hacked console have all those capabilities.

I'm pretty sure next gen consoles will be more than just backwards compatible. They will be expansions of previous architectures (like PS4 Pro) and will run all software natively. I think it's pretty much confirmed with Xbox. And it makes them even more similar with iPhones getting yearly updates.
I think you are still missing the point - a point Epic made in their lawsuit - that iPhone/iPad have taken the place of computers for billions of people - that don't even own a PC because they use the idevice for everything - the lack of openness on such ubiquitous devices that has taken the place of personal computers is an antitrust issue in the making. IMHO.

If playstation ever takes the place of smartphone/PC ownership then that would be a different argument IMO.
 

HE1NZ

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I think you are still missing the point - a point Epic made in their lawsuit - that iPhone/iPad have taken the place of computers for billions of people - that don't even own a PC because they use the idevice for everything - the lack of openness on such ubiquitous devices that has taken the place of personal computers is an antitrust issue in the making. IMHO.

If playstation ever takes the place of smartphone/PC ownership then that would be a different argument IMO.
Your description of smartphones is highly debatable. They can do many things, but they can't do anything well. It's still a phone + entertainment device primarily. Just a thing in your pocket you're addicted to. You need a computer for work, a console/PC for proper gaming, etc.

And again, neither Apple nor Google have a monopoly over this market. If you force Apple and Google to open up their platforms and they won't be able to monetize digital sales, they will monetize it elsewhere, like increasing the price of iPhones or having YOU the customer pay for Android license. Same with consoles, if you block Sony from controlling and monetizing their own platform, they won't have any reason to sell PlayStation at a loss as they usually do. Then say hello to $1500 consoles.

This is some real evil genius shit Epic is doing.
 

Vawn

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Nop, if they lose 30% on a 10€ sale, they were getting 7€, but they get 8€ when going over apple, so effectivelly gaining more than before.

Yes, EPIC is making more profit. But, you said they were raising the price. They lowered the PRICE to the customer, regardless how that money is split between Epic and Apple.
 

TimFL

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Funny how apple cut is 30%, but they only offer a 20% discount, effectively raising the actual price of whatever they sell.
That‘s the new price. The VBucks you see in the screen cost $9.99 and they currently run a permanent price drop event of 20% to $7.99.

This has nothing to do with the 30% cut, they just use it as an excuse to not apply the new 20% less price on the App Store payment method. They didn‘t introduce the separate payment method to give you back the 30% fee, they‘ve always eaten up the fee themselves (instead of having you pay for it) cause the Vbucks tier from the screen is $9.99 everywhere.
 
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Drewpee

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This just premiered in Fortnite, along with the #FreeFortnite hashtag.


This spoofs one of Apple's most famous commercials, making them the villain.

This is all absolutely insane.

One corporation fighting another corporation for a bigger cut of the already insane amount of money both make.

Neither is the good guy here.
 

PaintTinJr

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Your description of smartphones is highly debatable. They can do many things, but they can't do anything well. It's still a phone + entertainment device primarily. Just a thing in your pocket you're addicted to. You need a computer for work, a console/PC for proper gaming, etc.

And again, neither Apple nor Google have a monopoly over this market. If you force Apple and Google to open up their platforms and they won't be able to monetize digital sales, they will monetize it elsewhere, like increasing the price of iPhones or having YOU the customer pay for Android license. Same with consoles, if you block Sony from controlling and monetizing their own platform, they won't have any reason to sell PlayStation at a loss as they usually do. Then say hello to $1500 consoles.

This is some real evil genius shit Epic is doing.
The thing is...it isn't my description of a smartphone, as I'm in full agreement with you on the the usefulness of local computing and thick clients in preference to thin clients. But those that are merely computer users don't see the world that way, now and have moved over in droves to use their smartphone or tablet computer for virtually all their computing needs - made possible by "an app for that" philosopy provided a sniper like app for anything that an average user might wish to interact with using a tiny sub 10" screen.

If you compare the anti-trust scenario around Windows back in the day and then compare what an iPhone does for the average person, today, iOS is providing far more compute services on average for far more people than Windows at the time was - in home computing, and Windows was still an open system - that was merely guilty of herding users away from other browser products by with the IE4 integrated desktop solution. A solution which is more akin to Android's Google Apps being pre-installed and Android disabling side-loading by default which is still a million times more pro-consumer than iOS's locked system and 30% shakedown on a general purpose computing device for any software you wish to install on it.

Google will unlikely be forced to open their Google Playstore up, as Android is open source and handset bootloaders are unlockable from most manufacturers that understand the position smartphones hold in today's society - and Android already has a sideloading mechanism.

Apple are the odd one out IMHO and I suspect will be either forced to change by Trump/EU or by the next Democrat President - whenever they get in - after the EU force Apple to provide a sideloading mechanism at the very least.

As for Apple monetising their losses elsewhere, I have no issue with that, their ability to achieve that will be without a monopolistic grip, and they will have to fight for that revenue to convince consumers that their product is worth it, rather than just being a parasite gatekeeper for software on their handheld devices.

The consoles are a completely different scenario as I've already stated with a lengthy argument, previously, however don't be too surprised if when Sony launches the PS5, they don't open up the PS4 to services like EA Access and Gamepass, and still allow them to work inside the BC mode on the PS5 - showing that they can be open with amortised costed hardware, but can't offer the same openness when trying to sell a next-gen in which they probably have billions invested between hardware and software - that they need to make back at the very least.
 
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IbizaPocholo

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JSoup

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but on PS4 you're gonna have to go through certification and Woke censorship and such, convince Sony that your game is good enough for their holy platform.

No, not in any universe is this true.
Throw enough money at it, it'll get on the PSN, we've seen evidence of this since the PSN was first birthed.
The reason you see so much Sony censorship has nothing to do with woke policies. It has everything to do with triple-A companies not being willing to throw more cash at Sony to dodge all that or otherwise say 'our way or it's not on your system'. It's less money to just let them have their way, it's not going to effect the bottom line by much in either direction.
 

Ceadeus

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Heavly saturated with microtransactions, a BR game that will fail to dethrone themself that will slowly bleed away the Fortnite money, once the game has gone the way of all Fads:
Into the drain.

Well, why not fortnite... 2

Or!

Fortnite X Minecraft

Microsoft buy Epic confirmed.