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Drama Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

Three

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Analogy...
Just imagine if a company like Samsung wanted a physical space in a brick and mortar store like Best Buy. Now Best Buy offers companies area within their store for a price to keep that area. other companies like Apple and Google agree to pay to keep that space but Samsung, because they have a hype new phone and loyal fans, think they don't need to pay, or instead try to bypass Best Buy getting any of the sale while being in their store because they feel that Best Buy is asking for too much.


So am actually on the side of Apple in this one, greedy, Steve Job turning in his grave bc Apple pen, Apple. Down goes Epic
This isn't a good analogy. The good analogy would be Samsung using part of that space to say "You can also order from samsung.com for cheaper".

Come to think of it both MS and Sony now allow stuff bought from outside their stores to be available in Fortnite which they don't get a cut from. If this is why Apple blocked them why would any consumer defend having to pay more. Only Apple fans.
 

Sakura

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This isn't a good analogy. The good analogy would be Samsung using part of that space to say "You can also order from samsung.com for cheaper".

Come to think of it both MS and Sony now allow stuff bought from outside their stores to be available in Fortnite which they don't get a cut from. If this is why Apple blocked them why would any consumer defend having to pay more. Only Apple fans.
No. Epic didn't just have some text saying, "hey btw you can buy vbucks on our site too and they are a bit cheaper over there", they literally have two prices when you go to pay and no one in their right mind is going to choose the more expensive option save for specific circumstances (already has a bunch of itunes cards for example).
A better (but still dumb) analogy would be if Samsung rolled their own register and their own TVs into the Best Buy TV section, and started selling their TVs directly to the customers at a cheaper price than through Best Buy, with Best Buy getting 0% of the sales. Best Buy proceeds to kick Samsung out of the store, and Samsung responds by suing Best Buy, claiming Best Buy has a monopoly on the Best Buy market (no shit).

Not sure what you are talking about with the second part there. As far as I'm aware the iOS version of Fortnite does allow stuff purchased for Fortnite outside of iOS. For example, you could already buy cheaper vbucks on the PC and use them in the iOS version if you wanted to.
 
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lukilladog

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Vawn

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And no one is going to switch to android just for a fucking free game (as popular as it is).

Sure they will. It's just a matter of how many.

I switched from iPhone to Android for PlayStation RemotePlay. I imagine people will switch to Android for GamePass. Others definitely will switch for various games including Fortnite.

The only question will it be enough people to make a difference in how Apple chooses which apps and business models it allows on their platform? Probably not.
 

Grinchy

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
 

Ridaxan

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What you think is the bigger picture isn’t right though.

Apple shouldn’t be forced to developer and maintain a way for others to open a competing store selling the same things on their platform. Apple made iOS, they don’t have to make a feature just because epic want it. They don’t have a monopoly.

Think about it this way - do you think that Hungry Jacks (Burger king for you Americans) should be able to go in to McDonalds head office and say “you guys need to build us a little store inside your stores and let us sell our burgers there, and not only are you going to pay for the upkeep, we’re not going to give you any rent or cut”? Does that sound fair to you?

We own our iPhones. This would be akin to buying a vehicle and only be able to use it on certain roads, only be able to buy fuel from a specific store, only get it serviced from a specific store. It's anti-competitive, monopolistic and absolutely anti-consumer.

Apple is 100% in their rights in the way they have reacted to the situation.

It's 100% legal, but it shouldnt' be.
 

Sakura

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
You realise Sony gets a cut of the money on each physical game regardless of where you buy it from right?
 

aries_71

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
Explaned to perfection. Why is this so hard to understand for some people?
 

pasterpl

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.

so with you logic it should be ok for Eg. epic to launch their store on PlayStation that is completely independent from Sony and for Sony not to get a cut from games sales $$$?
 
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Sakura

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Yeah, they get a licensing fee that has nothing to do with a retail cut. What's your point?
You said Sony has to compete with other storefronts selling PS4 games. But Sony is still making money regardless of which storefront the sale comes from, so it isn't quite the same as say competition between Steam and the Epic Store.
What Epic wants from Apple, is quite different than the situation with physical games in various retail stores.
Furthermore, you can buy vbucks outside of the Apple store, just like you could buy PS4 games from Amazon if you wanted, instead of on PSN. You could go on your PC and buy them cheaper from Epic and use them on your iOS version of Fortnite. What Apple doesn't allow, is for you to pay Epic directly for in-app purchases, on your iPhone, completely bypassing Apple. Sony doesn't let you go on PSN and pay Epic (or whomever else) directly with Sony getting 0% either.
So my point is, your comparison doesn't make much sense to me.
 

SlimeGooGoo

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.
Oh? But that's for physical copies only right? The same physical copies that are becoming less and less common being surpassed by digital copies?


Oh, what's that? Some piece of news from the last year?

Oh look, it's not like they're all corporations that want to suck the money and the soul out of the consumers.
 
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Silvawuff

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That's the basic gist of it...no matter what major juggernaut "wins" here, we still lose as consumers. Apple isn't going to unlock its storefront policies because of Epic's meddling. I'm pretty sure their developer contracts are ironclad against modern business law specifically for shit like this. They knew that someone like Tim would eventually come along and start something.

That said, we don't own "digital copies." We buy the license to play said game, and that can be revoked anytime, especially if the storefront shuts down in the future. All of "your" games are gone. We're paying for the short-term convenience of downloading it on the spot and nothing more.
 

Three

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No. Epic didn't just have some text saying, "hey btw you can buy vbucks on our site too and they are a bit cheaper over there", they literally have two prices when you go to pay and no one in their right mind is going to choose the more expensive option save for specific circumstances (already has a bunch of itunes cards for example).
A better (but still dumb) analogy would be if Samsung rolled their own register and their own TVs into the Best Buy TV section, and started selling their TVs directly to the customers at a cheaper price than through Best Buy, with Best Buy getting 0% of the sales. Best Buy proceeds to kick Samsung out of the store, and Samsung responds by suing Best Buy, claiming Best Buy has a monopoly on the Best Buy market (no shit).

Not sure what you are talking about with the second part there. As far as I'm aware the iOS version of Fortnite does allow stuff purchased for Fortnite outside of iOS. For example, you could already buy cheaper vbucks on the PC and use them in the iOS version if you wanted to.

What the app does is redirect to Epics own payment system which you can do with your browser on your phone. The App store (best buy in the analogy) is Apples. What the app does is point you to a cheaper store from your own device.

What I mean by the second point is this:

"Starting today, any V-Bucks or real-money offers you purchase on PlayStation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, PC, and Mac are now discounted by up to 20%. You don’t need to do anything!"

The mobile phone companies like Google and Apple are the only ones blocking this and I really don't understand why people are cheering to pay 20% to a middleman by force.
 
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Spukc

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As usual neogaf never looks at the bigger picture.

What epic is doing is great because if they win, it means money more for developers who have apps in the apple app store. Then google, Sony, Microsoft etc will have to follow suit.

shut up EPIC BAD :pie_roffles:
 

Bitmap Frogs

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As usual neogaf never looks at the bigger picture.

What epic is doing is great because if they win, it means money more for developers who have apps in the apple app store. Then google, Sony, Microsoft etc will have to follow suit.

It just means more money for epic to moneyhat store exclusives, funding their campaign to make the pc a worse platform.

Majority of ios/android devs make almost nothing unless they dabble in user-abusing models like gachas and the like.

And frankly, I am very much ok with the whale chasers getting harpooned by Apple.
 
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MrFunSocks

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We own our iPhones. This would be akin to buying a vehicle and only be able to use it on certain roads, only be able to buy fuel from a specific store, only get it serviced from a specific store. It's anti-competitive, monopolistic and absolutely anti-consumer.

Apple is 100% in their rights in the way they have reacted to the situation.

It's 100% legal, but it shouldnt' be.
You don’t own the OS and just because you own the hardware it doesn’t mean you can dictate what the OS does. You knew what it offered when you bought it.

Apple do not and should not have to develop a way for competitors to undercut them on their own product.

Tell me, do you think Sony should have to allow Microsoft to have the Xbox Store on the PS5, where they can sell the exact same PS5 games as on the PlayStation digital store but 25% cheaper and not have to give Sony a cut? And not only that, Sony should be forced to make that functionality?

It’s absurd.
 
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Al3x1s

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
You can also buy the vast majority of Steam games from all kinds of third party retailers that sell steam keys, wherever the publisher/developer wants, without Steam getting a fee for still serving that same game and support as if you bought direct from them. Epic does not allow this except for sellers they want to work with, for however long they want to (like humble bundle), direct from Epic rather than the publisher/developer. So why would you pimp them as fighting for what you claim? Again, on Android they can release third party apps/stores just fine outside the play store, and still pulled the same shit on the play store and got Fortnite removed by google. Your wish/desire is clearly NOT their end goal, especially when they'd have taken a deal for them to be the exception to the rule they couldn't care less everyone else has to abide by even on iOS.

Idk why people keep sweeping this under the rug. Fortnite has also been removed from the Play Store, not just App Store, for pulling the same shit. On Android. A platform where third party apps can be released outside the play store (as Fortnite was, initially), a platform with all kinds of third party stores already on it, where Epic then decided they both want all the benefits of not being on the Play Store, and all the benefits of being on the Play Store, for free. Yet somehow you believe their sole goal with iOS is to make it open like Android? Why, they clearly don't like that either.

All Epic cares about is their bottom line and people some how want to present them as heroes just because Timmy tweets a lot of big talk regardless of the actual actions of the business and all the contradictions they've employed. Just weird. Epic wishes to be THE other store on iOS/Android by having it ready to go the moment a judge allows it, and having a media blitz follow. Then to employ the same tactics they've been using against anyone else who would want to compete. The same exclusivity deals, devaluing sales and freebies and media propaganda you don't like from others.
 
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Three

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You don’t own the OS and just because you own the hardware it doesn’t mean you can dictate what the OS does. You knew what it offered when you bought it.

Apple do not and should not have to develop a way for competitors to undercut them on their own product.

Tell me, do you think Sony should have to allow Microsoft to have the Xbox Store on the PS5, where they can sell the exact same PS5 games as on the PlayStation digital store but 25% cheaper and not have to give Sony a cut? And not only that, Sony should be forced to make that functionality?

It’s absurd.
What functionality has Apple been forced to make? They stop functionality created by others. In the best buy example, Would you be OK if say you bought an xbox from best buy then you were forced to buy all your games from there too? They didn't make the console, they didn't make the games yet you have to buy your games only from that store. The only reason to be on Apples side is that these terms were clearly set out already and Epic broke them. However people cheering on Apple is insane especially as no other store or sideloading is permitted.

Oddly if you look at the post above all console manufacturers allowed this Apple and Google didn't.
 
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Al3x1s

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Console manufacturers are paid regardless of how you buy any third party game made for their system, what are you on about? You think random indie joe can release a boxed PS4 game without Sony seeing a cent (even if he's lucky enough to acquire a dev kit)? There's a ton of licensing stuff.

Contrary to third party stores on Android not giving a cent to Google for the sales done through them. So, yes, it too is a far different situation from what Timmy wants to force/enjoy regardless of how many times you compare them. You're just grasping at straws and compare different bullshit.
 
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MrFunSocks

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What functionality has Apple been forced to make? They stop functionality created by others. In the best buy example, Would you be OK if say you bought an xbox from best buy then you were forced to buy all your games from there too? They didn't make the console, they didn't make the games yet you have to buy your games only from that store. The only reason to be on Apples side is that these terms were clearly set out already and Epic broke them. However people cheering on Apple is insane especially as no other store or sideloading is permitted.

Oddly if you look at the post above all console manufacturers allowed this Apple and Google didn't.
Apple do make the phone and OS that the games and apps run on though. Apple do not have to make a way for other companies to run their own store on their OS and compete against their own App Store.

So you’re saying that Sony and Microsoft both allow you to buy digital games from their consoles through third party digital stores? Where? Where’s the epic store on my Xbox?
 
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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
That's because MS and Sony charge a licensing fee on every physical game sold though lol

They also charge tons of money for getting your game certified.. far more than the $99 / year Apple does.. (MS has the ID@Xbox thing but it is barely used because you don't have access to most of the system)
 
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Shmunter

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If I want a copy of a PS4 game, I can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, ect. There are 100+ stores I could get it from and each of them have their own separate deals going on and have to compete with each other.

Sony also has to compete with them even with their own digital store despite the fact that they manufactured the physical piece of hardware that created the ecosystem in the first place. They didn't put out a piece of hardware and then monopolize game sales to be exclusively on their own digital storefront.

Apple has set up a situation where a billion people can only buy from their store and no competition is allowed.
Pretty sure all disc for ps4 are printed by Sony for the 30% cut. Retailers buy the games, on sell them however they wish.
 
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llien

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I don’t know what this means.
It means that when someone tells you "there is something very wrong with assholes like Apple being able to define the rules at will" answering with "bbbut there is that T&C thing, ah, rules written by Apple that have been violated" is not particularly bright.

Pretty sure all disc for ps4 are printed by Sony....
Sony spends billion to create hardware that it is selling at a loss.
let's compare it to a software store that wants to get cut from monthly subscriptions (e.g. Spotify) forever, shall we. (no, google doesn't do it, in fact, nobody but the A-... company is)

That being said, Sony was fined for forcing to keep prices high (in PS1/2 era)
 
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NinjaBoiX

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It means that when someone tells you "there is something very wrong with assholes like Apple being able to define the rules at will" answering with "bbbut there is that T&C thing, ah, rules written by Apple that have been violated" is not particularly bright.
So you’re saying that Apple just made up the terms that they’re accusing Epic of breaking on the spot?

That’s not very bright either.
 

lekain

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Those other tech companies could really turn the screws on Apple if they remove their apps from iOS - Microsoft with its office suite, Google with YouTube, Maps, Gmail and Facebook with Instagram, Messenger, etc.

Except that Google is also mad at Epic's trick to bypass the store tax
 
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NinjaBoiX

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Yes, that is what T&C is.
It’s really not.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

“These are our terms. You’re a huge company, take note of these terms because this is how business will be conducted between both parties from this point forward.

That last point is very important because we’re not dumb enough to just change these terms on the fly and assume you didn’t make a carbon copy of the agreement you singed up to.

But some idiot on a video game forum will probably suggest so to add weight to their hollow argument.”

You can argue wether the terms are fair all you like, but the fact is that they agreed to them, and so must adhere to them to do business in their marketplace.

Again, it’s pretty simple.
 
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llien

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That last point is very important because we’re not dumb enough to just change these terms on the fly and assume you didn’t make a carbon copy of the agreement you singed up to.

Please, do not bother explaining what T&C is, better remind me the last time you've read T&C.
Can't remember? Oh well. That is, besides other things, because it's not negotiable.
You can submit to it, or get TFO.

The argument against Apple is that it should not be OK, given their dominant position.

It is fine to disagree with that, but countering it with "but T&C" means not following the argument made.
 

NinjaBoiX

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Please, do not bother explaining what T&C is, better remind me the last time you've read T&C.
Can't remember? Oh well. That is, besides other things, because it's not negotiable.
You can submit to it, or get TFO.

The argument against Apple is that it should not be OK, given their dominant position.

It is fine to disagree with that, but countering it with "but T&C" means not following the argument made.
Oh please, don’t conflate Joe Public (ie: me and you) who don’t read the T&C’s because it’s boilerplate nonsense to the average consumer buying a few hundred dollar phone, but with a huge multinational corporation signing off on a business deal worth millions/billions with another huge multinational corporation, not so much. Do your homework.

They have legal teams full of intelligent, well informed people to go over these agreements with a fine toothed comb, precisely to avoid this kind of conflict.

They signed up with their eyes wide fucking open, they’re shifting the goalposts to suit themselves hoping that the bullshit strawman of “it’s for the greater good!” will wash with aforementioned Joe Public.

And apparently it’s working like a charm for some folk.

More fool you.

You can’t enjoy the benefits of a pre-built marketplace and get all the profits because “they’re bad and stuff”:

They’ve pulled the wool over your eyes, wake up.
 
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llien

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They have legal teams full of intelligent, well informed people to go over these agreements with a fine toothed comb, precisely to avoid this kind of conflict.

Mm, no, "they" don't.
And "they" is not EPIC, but countless small guys developing for the platform.

They signed up with their eyes wide fucking open
It is, again, the same dead non-argument, could you please stop?

You can’t enjoy the benefits of a pre-built marketplace and get all the profits because “they’re bad and stuff”:
"They cannot afford it" is much better than "T&C" dead horse.

I do not agree with this take though, obviously app store providers are interested in having large variety of apps on their story (lack of them is what made windows mobile so unattractive) that is why Steam, for instance, allows selling the keys somewhere else as well, essentially serving apps for free. Not to mention download sizes on app stores are laughable, compared to Steam.
 

NinjaBoiX

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I absolutely agree that it’s fucking awful that small indie devs who rely on Unreal to develop their games are getting fucked over. They’re pawns in this fight that Epic chose to pick and that sucks, but it’s Epic moving the chess pieces after the fact, not Apple.

Yes, Apple are making bank through their store but Epic aren’t exactly short-changed in this interaction either, they’re one of the richest companies in this field in the world.

And yes, they have no doubt factored in apportioned losses for the devs using their middleware and figured it was a fight worth taking on regardless. Again, with their own bottom line as the “queen” in this scenario factored in.

But Epic are the ones choosing to flip the table and let the chips fall where they may (tiny devs relying on their tech be dammed), it’s a ballsy move to be sure but I’m really struggling to paint Apple as the bad guy here.

Yes, you could argue that their terms are unfair. So don’t sign up then! You signed up for a reason, and now you feel like your balls are big enough that you can jam a stick in the spokes and hope your bike is big enough to ride it out, come what may.

Epic are as big a cunts as Apple in this fight, you’re delusional to think otherwise.
 
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IFireflyl

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I hate Apple and Epic, and I hope both of them go bankrupt. Having said that, Apple should win this one easily.

If I want to sell a physical product I can sell it through major retailers such as Walmart/Target/etcetera. Those store fronts will take a cut of my sales as they're the ones stocking and selling my product for me. What I can't do is go into Walmart, stand by the checkout line, and then tell Walmart customers to use my Square card reader to pay for the merchandise that Walmart is stocking for me in an effort to bypass Walmart's cut.

If I don't like Walmart's cut, I can sell elsewhere. There doesn't need to be an additional app store on iOS to support this. The developer can set up ways for Apple users to buy in-game merchandise outside of the app store.

In Fortnite's case, the customers can purchase V-Bucks through Apple's in-game purchases, Google Play Store, Amazon, Xbox, Playstation, or even Epic's website directly. It is worth noting that Google Play Store, Xbox, and Playstation all have the same 30% cut that Apple does. I'm not sure what Amazon's cut would be.

The point of the above post is to show that Apple does not restrict purchasing in-game content to their store which could be considered anti-competitive. App developers have the freedom to sell their in-game content wherever they would like. However, if they chose to allow micro-transactions on Apple's device then they have to abide by the terms Apple sets. Just like companies selling through Walmart have to pay Walmart/Target/Etcetera for carrying and selling items on their behalf.
 
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kuncol02

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The developer can set up ways for Apple users to buy in-game merchandise outside of the app store.
No you can't. Wordpress was forced to sell they comerciall addons in they app, not only through they website. You can't inform people how they can buy things outside of your app cheaper and in your app (that's not app store) you are forced to use Apple payment api.
 
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llien

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Yes, you could argue that their terms are unfair. So don’t sign up then!
The argument goes so that "don't sign up then (to the rules someone makes up at will)" is a luxury that dominant players should not have.
 
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Al3x1s

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100 posts destroying my arguments and moving goal posts and I'll cherry pick the one throwaway line just to keep the circle jerk going as if none of that happened, gg, lol.

Unrelated companies getting sued, fined, for completely unrelated things, don't apply to this other completely unrelated case. And that's the extent of the substance your arguments so far have held.

The argument Epic wants to "open up" a closed device (that Apple marketed as a closed ecosystem and consumers supported because Apple's image of what it should be is what they also wanted) doesn't hold when they also attack open platforms like Android or competitors on PC.

The argument consoles differ because Sony sells them at a loss doesn't hold either. Not all first parties sell them at a loss (even Sony doesn't always) not all companies have to run their business like Sony. Apple doesn't charge fees for multiplayer or whatever to make up for such a "loss".

The price of the devices sold is also completely irrelevant to this case, like most everything you have tried to correlate so far.

The retail comparison of boxed games doesn't work either when Sony makes sure to get compensation for any such things as well. What the terms are and the payments up to that point and if they're per copy or by volume or whatever doesn't change that it's not free like Epic wants it.

The monopoly card doesn't hold either when iOS is merely a fraction of the overall mobile/tablet market.

And that's all bullshit you've tried to push basically.

So, yes, they can simply not sign up, not agree to the contract terms Apple offers to all companies like Epic, if they don't think what they get in return is worth it. And Apple doesn't have to change the offered contract to one Epic likes if they don't feel what Epic brings is worth it.

And they most definitely could have sued them while remaining in legal business until they win and this becomes legal itself rather than put players and developers in the middle of their fight and pretend Apple did that from their side.

Timmy's in it for the money, a) to get 100% while exploiting a market Apple/Google created and b) to be the first company to launch another store on iOS and get 12% from others' releases where they got 0% while using anti competitive practices like exclusives and freebies they can afford with Fortnite money to stop any others from doing the same, yet pretending they're opening it for those others. And that's all there is to it. You're shilling for one multi billion dollar corp and its billionaire owner who broke their contracts and pretend they're better than a trillion dollar company. Pathetic.
 
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