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[Gonzito]

Game looks like ass but runs great and is fun

Absolutely ridiculous statement

 

[dgrdsv]

This game isn't using Lumen. Its using Nvidia's RTXGI. With lighting thats worse than the coverage Lumen would provide.

That's debatable. Biggest issue of any probe based GI in a game where lighting is mostly static is light leaking, and s/w Lumen has that in abundance. They try to plug it with SS fuckery but it just leads to other issues instead (i.e. "overdarkening").

 

[Imtjnotu]

Absolutely ridiculous statement

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Overall this is one of the best looking games this gen, especially so when it's night or when there's a storm going on with everyone fighting.

I don't think so. It's quite a handsome title in some scenes, but it's all art direction. It has a terrific visual design language, but the ambient occlusion is LACKING asf. They've massively downgraded the ambitious fidelity since the co-op only MO the game once had. The light leak inside buildings is actually terrible - particularly in the sandy environments, where a bizarre spotlight effect can light up a room as if it is being patrolled by a drone, but it's just the sand blowing in the wind outside. That is crude asf.

I don't even want to be down on the game's graphics as I generally think the game looks quite good, it's fine. But there is some clueless bullshit going around about how it's supposed to be some kind of amazing visual feast.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

 

[DirtInUrEye]

The thing is Lumen looks superb and runs well, when it's properly implemented. I watch my kid play Fortnite and I am constantly impressed with the implementation there, from Epic themselves. He only has a lower end AMD card but it still copes surprisingly well with their software version. It's a pity Epic don't seem to provide better support to third parties who might have liked to have had it as a feature but struggle to make it work in a way that doesn't become a big technical hindrance on the overall performance profile of their game.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Gaf can be hilarious. Constantly bitch about this gen being a bust due to a lack of graphics upgrades for their fancy new consoles. Then bitch about one of the few engines that does deliver those graphics upgrades. Then praise a game that eschews those next gen features while looking last gen as fuck.

And this is a forum which is full of hardcore gamers. So i cant quite blame the dumb masses on twitter and tiktok who dont know any better. This industry is cooked when its most knowledgeable users are unable to comprehend a basic fact: graphics cost graphics power. Nothing is free. You get what you pay for. And these kids still on a PS5 and a PS5 equivalent 4060 after 5 long years of the generation are expecting to run games at 1440p 60 fps at the highest settings. INSANE.

Last gen the most popular card at the end of 2018 was a 1060 which was 3x more powerful than the PS5 which is why it ran everything at 1080p 60 fps while the PS5 ran everything at 1080p 30 fps. A 4060 is barely as powerful as a PS5. Why the fuck should it run anything at these high resolutions?

But if you want to play games that look like this then good for you. Just dont complain when the industry doesnt give you the graphics upgrade you wanted from this gen.

Weird how my PS5 Pro absolutely beats a 5090 in graphics. Good to know. Console master race!

 

[DirtInUrEye]

He kept accidentally calling the PS4 a PS5, but he's right that the game looks every part the PS4 era game in those screenshots. The downgrade on this title since the earlier trailers and previews has been radical, but untrained eyes are so easily tricked by the smart art choices that have carried over. It's still a bit of a Ubisoft style scam in my eyes, but fuck it.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Gaf can be hilarious. Constantly bitch about this gen being a bust due to a lack of graphics upgrades for their fancy new consoles. Then bitch about one of the few engines that does deliver those graphics upgrades. Then praise a game that eschews those next gen features while looking last gen as fuck.

And this is a forum which is full of hardcore gamers. So i cant quite blame the dumb masses on twitter and tiktok who dont know any better. This industry is cooked when its most knowledgeable users are unable to comprehend a basic fact: graphics cost graphics power. Nothing is free. You get what you pay for. And these kids still on a PS5 and a PS5 equivalent 4060 after 5 long years of the generation are expecting to run games at 1440p 60 fps at the highest settings. INSANE.

Last gen the most popular card at the end of 2018 was a 1060 which was 3x more powerful than the PS5 which is why it ran everything at 1080p 60 fps while the PS5 ran everything at 1080p 30 fps. A 4060 is barely as powerful as a PS5. Why the fuck should it run anything at these high resolutions?

But if you want to play games that look like this then good for you. Just dont complain when the industry doesnt give you the graphics upgrade you wanted from this gen.

To be fair its a multiplayer game. Does graphics really matter? Its not like expedition 33 were you spend 10 minutes looking at the landscape.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

To be fair its a multiplayer game. Does graphics really matter?

Absolutely yes.

 

[GHG]

Gaf can be hilarious. Constantly bitch about this gen being a bust due to a lack of graphics upgrades for their fancy new consoles. Then bitch about one of the few engines that does deliver those graphics upgrades. Then praise a game that eschews those next gen features while looking last gen as fuck.

And this is a forum which is full of hardcore gamers. So i cant quite blame the dumb masses on twitter and tiktok who dont know any better. This industry is cooked when its most knowledgeable users are unable to comprehend a basic fact: graphics cost graphics power. Nothing is free. You get what you pay for. And these kids still on a PS5 and a PS5 equivalent 4060 after 5 long years of the generation are expecting to run games at 1440p 60 fps at the highest settings. INSANE.

Last gen the most popular card at the end of 2018 was a 1060 which was 3x more powerful than the PS5 which is why it ran everything at 1080p 60 fps while the PS5 ran everything at 1080p 30 fps. A 4060 is barely as powerful as a PS5. Why the fuck should it run anything at these high resolutions?

But if you want to play games that look like this then good for you. Just dont complain when the industry doesnt give you the graphics upgrade you wanted from this gen.

I remember trying to help when you were crying from the rooftops about SH2 stuttering to hell and back for you when it launched.

Outer Worlds 2

This the outer worlds 2?:

(taken from the video in the OP)

This the outer worlds 2?:

 

[Mister Wolf]

I remember trying to help when you were crying from the rooftops about SH2 stuttering to hell and back for you when it launched.

This the outer worlds 2?:

(taken from the video in the OP)

This the outer worlds 2?:

So turn the settings down.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Is it just me or is Outer Worlds 2 one of the most hideous looking games ever? It has tasteless visuals, its environment assets are plain ugly. I do not understand the appeal.

 

[GHG]

So turn the settings down.

Didn't bother to watch the video did you?

No amount of turning settings down is fixing async shader compilation issues.

I'll also take the opportunity to address this:

Exactly man. They don't want progress just to maintain their ego over the hardware they bought.

Who exactly are you referring to here?

 

[Mister Wolf]

Who exactly are you referring to here?

You would obviously be one of them.

 

[Griffon]

When the best game for an engine is a game that specifically worked around to avoid the engine's features, it's a pretty bad look.

At this point those devs would've been well capable of making their own engine.

 

[GHG]

You would obviously be one of them.

So wanting the games that I play to be well optimised = "ego"?

That's a new one.

Didn't know it was a crime in your eyes to want games to not have shader comp issues and for the games to not stutter regardless of the hardware that's thrown at it due to the root cause being a combination of developer oversight and the engine in question.

What's funny is that you're not realising that these issues will still be present in these games 10 years from now even with hardware that's orders of magnitude more capable than what we have at our disposal today.

All that UE5 marketing seems to have caused a severe case of brainrot.

 

[Fake]

So turn the settings down.

lmao

 

[Mister Wolf]

So wanting the games that I play to be well optimised = "ego"?

That's a new one.

Didn't know it was a crime in your eyes to want games to not have shader comp issues and for the games to not stutter regardless of the hardware that's thrown at it due to the root cause being a combination of developer oversight and the engine in question.

What's funny is that you're not realising that these issues will still be present in these games 10 years from now even with hardware that's orders of magnitude more capable than what we have at our disposal today.

All that UE5 marketing seems to have caused a severe case of brainrot.

I have a 5800X3D/4090 setup. Running Outer Worlds 2 at everything Very High DLSS 4K Performance. The game runs and looks great(certainly better than Arc). No reason to lie. Drop the ego and tune the settings to your appropriate level of hardware. You get what you pay for. Arc looks like a PS4 game. No duh it runs fast. Should we celebrate last gen looking games that lack proper indoor indirect lighting in a tech thread?

 

[GHG]

I have a 5800X3D/4090 setup. Running Outer Worlds 2 at everything Very High DLSS 4K Performance. The game runs and looks great(certainly better than Arc). No reason to lie. Drop the ego and tune the settings to your appropriate level of hardware. You get what you pay for.

Oh that's interesting. What does this say?

I scored 27 781 in Time Spy

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 x 1, 32768 MB, 64-bit Windows 10}

www.3dmark.com

These are for you:

 

[rodrigolfp]

He kept accidentally calling the PS4 a PS5, but he's right that the game looks every part the PS4 era game in those screenshots. The downgrade on this title since the earlier trailers and previews has been radical, but untrained eyes are so easily tricked by the smart art choices that have carried over. It's still a bit of a Ubisoft style scam in my eyes, but fuck it.

Meanwhile the Division games even downgraded:

 

[dgrdsv]

The thing is Lumen looks superb and runs well, when it's properly implemented. I watch my kid play Fortnite and I am constantly impressed with the implementation there, from Epic themselves. He only has a lower end AMD card but it still copes surprisingly well with their software version. It's a pity Epic don't seem to provide better support to third parties who might have liked to have had it as a feature but struggle to make it work in a way that doesn't become a big technical hindrance on the overall performance profile of their game.

Fortnite is a game with simplistic world geometry which is one of big reasons why Lumen works well in it. It's a bit of an opposite direction - it's not Lumen looking good when properly implemented, it's Lumen being implemented for Fortine to look good. Epic doesn't make any other games these days so it's reasonable to expect them to design the features around their own content. Too bad that said content isn't how most other games look like.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Hmm, I think you're confusing art direction with technical prowess again.

 

[Mengy]

Game looks like ass but runs great and is fun

I think the game looks fantastic. Not saying its the best looking game ever made but still looking awesome graphically and aesthetically.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

I can only roll my eyes at statements like this.

Overall this is one of the best looking games this gen, especially so when it's night or when there's a storm going on with everyone fighting.

And yes, buzzwords. What's funny about this is that it both looks and runs better than several games this gen that do use Lumen/all the other UE5 checklist buzzwords (is anyone going to try and argue Borderlands 4 looks better than this?). Maybe they should have lied to keep the people who are attracted to that kind of marketing happy.

At least some other devs also get it:

The real-time lighting in Borderlands 4 looks incredible. Few UE5 games have impressed me as much with their lighting as Borderlands 4, and I explain in great detail why that's the case here.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bord...ce-issues-and-crashing.1688115/post-270847211

Even simple objects like boxes cast real-time indirect shadows in Borderlands 4, making them pleasing to look at.

I haven't played Arc Riders, but even from watching YouTube videos, I've noticed that the lighting in this game is flat. For example, these boxes lack indirect lighting and appear to be floating.

Digital Foundry in their analysis also highlighted other issues, such as light leaking, SSR without an effective fallback and substandard shadow rendering. The lighting in Borderlands 4 is certainly more advanced from a technical perspective.

 

[Mister Wolf]

The real-time lighting in Borderlands 4 looks incredible. Few UE5 games have impressed me as much with their lighting as Borderlands 4, and I explain in great detail why that's the case here.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bord...ce-issues-and-crashing.1688115/post-270847211

Even simple objects like boxes cast real-time indirect shadows in Borderlands 4, making them pleasing to look at.

I haven't played Arc Riders, but even from watching YouTube videos, I've noticed that the lighting in this game is flat. For example, these boxes lack indirect lighting and appear to be floating.

Digital Foundry in their analysis also highlighted other issues, such as light leaking, SSR without an effective fallback and substandard shadow rendering. The lighting in Borderlands 4 is certainly more advanced from a technical perspective.

"But the frames though....."

 

[Catphish]

People with strong computers that can afford to use Lumen without complaint.

 

[clarky]

What games with the full UE5 feature set available in game run good and look great?

 

[GHG]

The real-time lighting in Borderlands 4 looks incredible. Few UE5 games have impressed me as much with their lighting as Borderlands 4, and I explain in great detail why that's the case here.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bord...ce-issues-and-crashing.1688115/post-270847211

Even simple objects like boxes cast real-time indirect shadows in Borderlands 4, making them pleasing to look at.

I haven't played Arc Riders, but even from watching YouTube videos, I've noticed that the lighting in this game is flat. For example, these boxes lack indirect lighting and appear to be floating.

Digital Foundry in their analysis also highlighted other issues, such as light leaking, SSR without an effective fallback and substandard shadow rendering. The lighting in Borderlands 4 is certainly more advanced from a technical perspective.

Where's my randy pitchford avatar when I need it?

Sorry, but looking at the screenshot you've posted there along with the ones in the post you linked, there's nothing impressive there.

Just because it's technically correct or accurate, it doesn't make it better.

What games with the full UE5 feature set available in game run good and look great?

I think Hellblade 2 is the only genuine candidate, but that's more tech demo than it is game.

 

[clarky]

Where's my randy pitchford avatar when I need it?

Sorry, but looking at the screenshot you've posted there along with the ones in the post you linked, there's nothing impressive there.

Just because it's technically correct or accurate, it doesn't make it better.



I think Hellblade 2 is the only genuine candidate, but that's more tech demo than it is game.

Yeah HB2 I guess.

I had to abandon Silent Hill 2, that game looked great until you stuttered you way around. Oblivion was fucking awful as well.


I know which option I'd take for this game. Dev's did a solid job here if you ask me.

 

[GHG]

I know which option I'd take for this game. Dev's did a solid job here if you ask me.

Yep, and we have plenty of examples of it from games that don't use UE5. Look at battlefield 6 for example.

If you can get 95% of the way there without tanking the performance and stability of your game, why go the extra 5% and make the experience miserable for your paying customers? It makes no sense.

 

[clarky]

Yep, and we have plenty of examples of it from games that don't use UE5. Look at battlefield 6 for example.

If you can get 95% of the way there without tanking the performance and stability of your game, why go the extra 5% and make the experience miserable for your paying customers? It makes no sense.

It alright though, its for the future proofing. You know that time when nobody will be playing your game anyway.

 

[rodrigolfp]

What games with the full UE5 feature set available in game run good and look great?

Avowed, First Descendant, Remnant 2, Cronos...

 

[KeepThemEyesOpen]

Removed the question from their title because it's not a question, it's correct.

Technical and corporate buzzword clowns in shambles. Game looks fantastic, runs fantastic and is fantastic.

Great work by the devs to do what's right and remove/avoid all the crap that creates a ton of issues with minimal noticeable visual uplift when you're actually playing the game. This is especially important given the type of game this is to ensure everyone can have a good experience while still having a title that remains visually pleasing overall.

In summary, it runs great, no shader comp stutter but at the end Alex cries about wanting them to add all of the shit that creates the kinds of issues UE5 games have been notorious for all gen. What gives...

 

[clarky]

Avowed, First Descendant, Layers of Fear, Remnant 2...

I don't have much experience of those titles do they all run stutter free and decently on lower end hardware?

 

[rodrigolfp]

I dint have much experience of those titles do they all run stutter free and decently on lower end hardware?

Removed Layers of Fear as apparently doesn't have nanite and added Cronos

Pretty much stutter free here, except those rare stutters on Cronos with hardware lumen ON.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Wuchang too.

Wukong if I remember correctly is another one with only traversal stutters.

 

[Soren01]

Let's hope the studios take note and move away from Lumen and Nanite, opting for alternatives that balance performance and visuals better

 

[SlimySnake]

To be fair its a multiplayer game. Does graphics really matter? Its not like expedition 33 were you spend 10 minutes looking at the landscape.

Correct, they dont really matter. Not for games like this or BF6, no. Hence my post below.

yep. its pretty dishonest especially since Alex says no, its not for the win because at came at the expense of all these features that are lacking which make the game look last gen. It works here for this particular game because its a fucking extraction shooter that doesnt really demand high fidelity graphics. Like the userbase for this game is never going to want or expect that so why bother.

But other games like Silent Hill or MGS? Fuck yes, i want next gen graphics. I am fucking paying $70 for a next gen remake and if it didnt come with the latest and greatest graphics features then why the fuck would i pay for it? I would just play the original versions or the remasters with ps2 era graphics.

UE5 has issues, but this generation has broken gamers. Online discourse of video games was never particularly illuminating but gaf was always a beacon of hope with a mostly older and more knowledgeable userbase compared to say gamefaq or twitter. i understand graphics are subjective, and i can see that this is a very handsome looking game outdoors, but i expect gaffers of all people to understand what UE5's next gen features offer.

It's the blanket - lumen and nanite sucks so get rid of it - i have an issue with. No, id rather my next gen games look next gen.

 

[clarky]

Wuchang too.

Wukong if I remember correctly is another one with only traversal stutters.

Traversal stutters suck. That game didn't run all that well if i recall.

 

[clarky]

Correct, they dont really matter. Not for games like this or BF6, no. Hence my post below.


It's the blanket - lumen and nanite sucks so get rid of it - i have an issue with. No, id rather my next gen games look next gen.

Battlefield looks and runs great. I don't think you could get it running on last gen without some serious sacrifices.

Arc Raiders looks good imo, I think the Devs made the right choice. It's runs well on a wide range of hardware and looks decent. They need the widest possible audience for these types of games.

I'm just happy when I don't have to spend half my initial gaming time wrestling with settings and still see games stuttering.

Silent Hill 2 is a prime example, I'd drop all the shinny shit in a heartbeat if i could get it running stutter free.

 

[SlimySnake]

Wuchang too.

Wukong if I remember correctly is another one with only traversal stutters.

Did you watch the video? This game also has the same traversal stutters. They just dont show up on the frametime charts because the requirements are so low that even a lowly 3600 can run the game at higher framerates. You will still notice the hitching in animations.

The traversal stutters have been around in UE since UE4, maybe even longer. Lumen and Nanite have nothing to do with them. it's an engine issue. They just manifest more in games with Lumen and Nanite because those techniques are expensive and cause the framerates on these older CPUs and GPUs to drop making them feel more obvious.

Silent Hill 2 is a prime example, I'd drop all the shinny shit in a heartbeat if i could get it running stutter free.

Why play a remake with last gen graphics? More importantly, why pay $70 for a last gen remake?

 

[clarky]

Did you watch the video? This game also has the same traversal stutters. They just dont show up on the frametime charts because the requirements are so low that even a lowly 3600 can run the game at higher framerates. You will still notice the hitching in animations.

The traversal stutters have been around in UE since UE4, maybe even longer. Lumen and Nanite have nothing to do with them. it's an engine issue. They just manifest more in games with Lumen and Nanite because those techniques are expensive and cause the framerates on these older CPUs and GPUs to drop making them feel more obvious.


Why play a remake with last gen graphics? More importantly, why pay $70 for a last gen remake?

Why play a remake that stutters like fuck and runs like shit. No thanks.

 

[SlimySnake]

When the best game for an engine is a game that specifically worked around to avoid the engine's features, it's a pretty bad look.

At this point those devs would've been well capable of making their own engine.

no one is forcing anyone to use UE5. No one is forcing ex-DICE devs who made Frostbite to not use their own Lumen or Nanite solution. Anvil and Snowdrop both use RTGI and utilize mesh shaders to great results.

Embark was formed in 2018. They had 7 years.

 

[clarky]

Embark was formed in 2018. They had 7 years.

And they made 2 excellent titles. Your talking as if they have failed.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Where's my randy pitchford avatar when I need it?

Sorry, but looking at the screenshot you've posted there along with the ones in the post you linked, there's nothing impressive there.

Just because it's technically correct or accurate, it doesn't make it better.



I think Hellblade 2 is the only genuine candidate, but that's more tech demo than it is game.

You aren't impressed by my Borderlands 4 screenshots, because you don't understand what is being rendered on the screen, or why it is so impressive. You simply have limited knowledge of game lighting.

Arc Riders objectively has flat lighting compared to Borderlands 4. Of course, an MP-focused game doesn't need to push technology forward to impress people with it's lighting technology. Most gamers pay more attention to artistic style.

 

[Josemayuste]

Ok this game might end up being my personal GOTY.

 

[GHG]

You aren't impressed by my Borderlands 4 screenshots, because you don't understand what is being rendered on the screen, or why it is so impressive. You simply have limited knowledge of game lighting.

Arc Riders objectively has flat lighting compared to Borderlands 4. Of course, an MP-focused game doesn't need to push technology forward to impress people with it's lighting technology. Most gamers pay more attention to artistic style.

 

[phant0m]

I can only roll my eyes at statements like this.

Overall this is one of the best looking games this gen, especially so when it's night or when there's a storm going on with everyone fighting.

And yes, buzzwords. What's funny about this is that it both looks and runs better than several games this gen that do use Lumen/all the other UE5 checklist buzzwords (is anyone going to try and argue Borderlands 4 looks better than this?). Maybe they should have lied to keep the people who are attracted to that kind of marketing happy.

At least some other devs also get it:

BF6 also looks incredible and has zero RT lighting.

(Yes, I know it's Frostbite and not UE5, but the point is RT lighting has dick all to do with making a competent looking game in 2025)

You aren't impressed by my Borderlands 4 screenshots, because you don't understand what is being rendered on the screen, or why it is so impressive. You simply have limited knowledge of game lighting.

Arc Riders objectively has flat lighting compared to Borderlands 4. Of course, an MP-focused game doesn't need to push technology forward to impress people with it's lighting technology. Most gamers pay more attention to artistic style.

Because it doesn't fucking matter boss. Yes, put the screenshots side by side and you can see there's a difference. But that difference makes zero impact on gameplay or enjoyment of the game. When we got cool lighting tech in the past from games like Doom 3 and FEAR it really added to the atmosphere and experience. I don't find Arc or BF6 'lacking' because they don't have RTGI or RT reflections.

Doom TDA is not some wow amazeballs advancement in first person shooters because it has forced RT. It's exactly the same fucking gameplay experience as Eternal (RT optional) and 2016 (no RT at all).

Normally I'd say eh, new tech is new tech but the RT juice is not worth the 30% squeeze on performance here.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Because it doesn't fucking matter boss. Yes, put the screenshots side by side and you can see there's a difference. But that difference makes zero impact on gameplay or enjoyment of the game. When we got cool lighting tech in the past from games like Doom 3 and FEAR it really added to the atmosphere and experience. I don't find Arc or BF6 'lacking' because they don't have RTGI or RT reflections.

Arc Riders and BF6 are MP focused game, so I think developers made a right choice focusing on performance, because more people would be able to enjoy their games. That being said these missing UE5 graphics features would make the lighting in this game objectively better and I wouldnt need screenshots comparison to easily notice that difference.

I work with light and I can understand what is being rendered in the scene. I can notice small differences, which impact my enjoyment of the game because I become more immersed. For example, in games like Cyberpunk or Borderlands 4, I enjoy just admiring how the sunlight changes the scene lighting throughout the day and how realistically objects are lit. Lighting quality matters to me, so don't assume that your experience and opinion is representative of everyone's.