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[WasabiKing]

I've sat back a bit and started looking at vids and I can't say I've played enough 360 to judge the system (although I can judge the fanboys), but do some of these developers have it all wrong?

I know a lot of you want that bitchin' smooth textures and great special effects, but that's not what I'm banking it all on. I've pretty much harped on the technical aspects. I don't want a game next-gen that is like what I call the GTA syndrome. Don't you just hate it when you go to one section of a neighborhood and all you see are the same types of cars? It's like, cab, Manana, Rumpo, or Sentinel only.

Dynasty Warriors on PS3 better not have the same group of 5 people rushing at me. Their faces don't even have to be detailed, I want guys in the same attack party to be wielding different weapons, like a spear, cutlass, long sword, and daggers.

It seems that DMC 3:SE, and even the original, was on the right path. You can have up to 3 different types of enemies attacking you in Bloody Palace for sure. (My high is only 1843)

 

[Shompola]

Yes. Very old argument since I dont know. And there are two obstacles as far as I know, one is the minor one i.e. simple put amount of RAM, more unique models/textures/data more memory you need to store them.. the other one wich is a much bigger obstacle is if the developers feel it is worth creating unique models or not. It is time consuming wich also means costing more money. Of course things like procedural synthesis should make it easier and cheaper, variations of a model/texture for example.. but we have yet to see that in effect.

 

[fresquito]

When I see these kind of topics, I go back to Golden Eye and Perfect dark. Those games had some amazingly advanced things going on. One of them this thing you ask. Just to think those games came 8 years ago and even more and things haven´t improved that much... when they haven´t gone worse...

 

[Ranger X]

I hear you but i doubt you'll see it becoming better anytime soon. Maybe later during next-gen.
It's all about the time that it takes to make all the different textures and objects needed to achieve that and if the develloper feel it's worth the time and money.
Right now it's very costly to make a next-gen game of course so they won't invest it that stuff that's for sure, it's one of the firt things you can actually cut without having a real effect on sales.
Having 100 identical guys with great detail is selling more than 20 guys but all different textured if you no what i mean.

 

[meltpotato]

I could be off base, but i'd say you are wrong in regards to what most games will be. you may see some "hardcore" focused games seeing such improvements, which is strengthed by your DMC example.

for the most part, i expect games to become even more streamlined with less variety for the majority. lots of pallete swaps and minor differences. When you think about it, each asset is going to cost that much more, yet each gen we see more and more focus on cutting down costs and streamlining games so they flow better down the bullshit pipe. creativity is getting its ass kicked by the bottom line.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Nextgen can deliver the kind of detail that you describe. It's not a priority of developers and publishers, as it takes a lot of work and nobody will tell in screenshots how many different cars the next GTA has. Doubling the art/asset budget for a given game could easily make the project a money-loser.

 

[Cpl_Cain]

Well with the cost of development going through the roof, I don't think we're going to see many games with the kind of detail that you're talking about. The only games that will have that kind of knats ass detail will be stuff like Oblivion.

Maybe when developers start doing a lot more things procedurally then we'll see more artists freed up to start creating the kind of details that you're talking about.

 

[FiRez]

Nextgen can deliver the kind of detail that you describe. It's not a priority of developers and publishers, as it takes a lot of work and nobody will tell in screenshots how many different cars the next GTA has. Doubling the art/asset budget for a given game could easily make the project a money-loser.

Yes, I think shenmue is an example of that

 

[Mrbob]

EA with Madden 360 does a bit of what you are talking about.

The crowd in the background in these games are amazing. You have 60,000 people jumping up and down, going crazy. Big difference from the static backgrounds found in the current gen version. Makes a difference where you can literally feel the atmosphere in the game. For all the things Madden 360 does wrong, this aspect is done extremely well.

I think more next gen games will get to where you want to go, but it is going to take a couple years. The foundation will be layed down first, and then built upon for future versions.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Thing is, I think devs are going to use the additional RAM for larger environments, better textures, blah blah blah - and we will probably end up with the same 5 characters that all look the same like Wasabi mentioned.

 

[rastex]

The hilarious thing, in terms of wars ancient and new... all the people DID look the same. People wore the same uniforms, had the same roles and performed the same functions. That's how armies work.

 

[gofreak]

I agree with the OP's sentiment, but unfortunately the ambition of having genuinely unique characters populating whole worlds - or an army full of them - would require such investment and time and resources. I'm hoping for smarter solutions, algorithmic generation of diversity/variety. Maybe the tech in spore is a step in the right direction here. Like..take a face, manipulate these variables, et voila, here's a new face. The problem with such approaches is that you have little scope for artistic direction - what the algorithm throws out is what you get.

In terms of armies, though, the one thing I want us to really move away from his lock-step animation and action amongst crowds. You see it in most games that use instancing (replicating basically the same model over and over again). Even if they all don't look unique, it'd be nice if each appeared to behave individually (and you could use tricks to avoid having to do so for the whole army..i'm sure up to a certain point you wouldn't notice repetiton).

 

[TheBig14]

What I would like to know is why can't we use all this extra computing power to make games different...not graphically better. I feel as if old cg, while many times not even looking graphically as nice as some new games, still feels more "alive" and natural...because of its intricasies and naturally flowing animations....not because of the detail of its models or environments.

What I am hoping is that Sony use the extra CPU horsepower to make games more immersive, even if the object and environment graphics hit a plateau of sophistication and detail. Like everyone else here is saying....I don't want another dynasty warriors with massive asset replication, sparse interaction with the environment, and overly-redundant animations, physics, and gameplay. I'd rather have a variety of characters with less detail for each than 3 highly detailed characters with no interactive environment.

Does this sound like a paradigm shift that should be entertained or what?

 

[xexex]

I feel as if old cg, while many times not even looking graphically as nice as some new games, still feels more "alive" and natural...because of its intricasies and naturally flowing animations....not because of the detail of its models or environments.

very true.

 

[SnakeXs]

This is all developer-centric.

No matter what, teams have enough power now to create diverse assets and stunning visuals.

Some developers may not think that diversity matters in the face of some pretty effects and visuals. Others do. Many developers are simply uncapable of doing it all, restrained by either talent, time, or funding.

But, to throw in my 2 cents, I think there's way too much focus on x mapping, x poly models, and way too little on animation and environments. Pretty face visuals and pore modeling is fine and all, but to me it's all for nought if the world is empty, dead, and animation is robotic and not fluid.

To me, stunning visuals are immersive in screens, but environments and animation bring a game to life when you play. I dunno about you guys, but I care about playing games, not gawking at screens.

 

[Pimpbaa]

But, to throw in my 2 cents, I think there's way too much focus on x mapping, x poly models, and way too little on animation and environments. Pretty face visuals and pore modeling is fine and all, but to me it's all for nought if the world is empty, dead, and animation is robotic and not fluid.

I definitely agree with this. It's why I find world of warcraft so much more visually pleasing than most PC games (even tho it's terribly low poly and has low res textures).

 

[YourMaster]

The hilarious thing, in terms of wars ancient and new... all the people DID look the same. People wore the same uniforms, had the same roles and performed the same functions. That's how armies work.

But the clone wars have not started yet.
No to mention the fact that armies were full of scarred men, many of them diseased and filthy.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I think it's really a matter of developer time. And since time = money, it's going to be the rare developer who puts that level of detail into a game.

Honestly, I don't know what my expectations are. Sometimes they're very high and specific, and at other moments I'm just amazed at how high res these new console games are. I'm finding it hard to look at PS2 3d over the last couple weeks.

 

[WasabiKing]

But Madden 360's graphical enhancements don't do anything to improve the game.

Keep in mind, I'm just a gamer, I don't work on the design of games, but...

Rather than doing pallet swapping, I just can't see why it cannot be done. I mean, it's really just taking elements that have already been designed, and rather than group all the similiar enemies, randomize them and send them forward.

I gotta go back to DMC 3:SE cause there's one stage in Bloody Palace that covers what I want. On one stage, there are Hell Prides (the first enemy you see), Hell Lusts (the ones that swoop at you, looks just like a Hell Pride), Hell Greeds (the ones that swing a casket and summons more enemies), and Soul Eaters (blue mist creatures) on one stage. Now, I know that Bloody Palace is a limited arena, but if we're going next-gen, can we at least keep that in mind?

BTW, if you're in development, feel free to smack me down and explain why you're not doing this.

 

[Goreomedy]

But Madden 360's graphical enhancements don't do anything to improve the game.

Keep in mind, I'm just a gamer, I don't work on the design of games, but...

Rather than doing pallet swapping, I just can't see why it cannot be done. I mean, it's really just taking elements that have already been designed, and rather than group all the similiar enemies, randomize them and send them forward.

I gotta go back to DMC 3:SE cause there's one stage in Bloody Palace that covers what I want. On one stage, there are Hell Prides (the first enemy you see), Hell Lusts (the ones that swoop at you, looks just like a Hell Pride), Hell Greeds (the ones that swing a casket and summons more enemies), and Soul Eaters (blue mist creatures) on one stage. Now, I know that Bloody Palace is a limited arena, but if we're going next-gen, can we at least keep that in mind?

BTW, if you're in development, feel free to smack me down and explain why you're not doing this.

I think God of War did this well. Mix-and-match monster parties to keep you on your toes.

Variety is the spice to virtual life.

 

[WasabiKing]

I think God of War did this well. Mix-and-match monster parties to keep you on your toes.

Variety is the spice to virtual life.

Exactly, and the worlds seemed to be large and expansive. And believe me, I'm not some sort gamer who has this dream of seeing games that sold 100,000 copies expand into a franchise, and I also know money doesn't grow on trees. I guess more gamers need to demand this sort of thing.

 

[Vustadumas]

But Madden 360's graphical enhancements don't do anything to improve the game.

Keep in mind, I'm just a gamer, I don't work on the design of games, but...

Rather than doing pallet swapping, I just can't see why it cannot be done. I mean, it's really just taking elements that have already been designed, and rather than group all the similiar enemies, randomize them and send them forward.

I gotta go back to DMC 3:SE cause there's one stage in Bloody Palace that covers what I want. On one stage, there are Hell Prides (the first enemy you see), Hell Lusts (the ones that swoop at you, looks just like a Hell Pride), Hell Greeds (the ones that swing a casket and summons more enemies), and Soul Eaters (blue mist creatures) on one stage. Now, I know that Bloody Palace is a limited arena, but if we're going next-gen, can we at least keep that in mind?

BTW, if you're in development, feel free to smack me down and explain why you're not doing this.

Well, the biggest reason is, it's just not worth the time. If you're playing a game and you are wondering to yourself, "why the Hell am I killing the same characters over and over?" the game has already failed.

The gameplay has to be the best part, so you don't have time to think about such things. I would like to see variety myself, but the pay off just isn't there for it's inclusion.

 

[Brandon F]

Honestly, I don't know what my expectations are. Sometimes they're very high and specific, and at other moments I'm just amazed at how high res these new console games are. I'm finding it hard to look at PS2 3d over the last couple weeks.

It's pretty striking isn't it? I picked up DMC3:SE yesterday myself and was quite taken back at how aged this game is looking already. Killer 7, on the otherhand, is so stylized that it actually stands up quite well.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

It's pretty striking isn't it? I picked up DMC3:SE yesterday myself and was quite taken back at how aged this game is looking already. Killer 7, on the otherhand, is so stylized that it actually stands up quite well.

And that's why really unique and striking art stands up no matter the platform. But yea, the fog and jaggies I ignored in previous PS2 games are just about unbearable after going next gen. Now they need to combine that technical bottom line with more games that give me the same thrill.

 

[Ranger X]

The key for games to be "next-gen" is INTERACTION WITH THE ENVIRONEMENT.
Each threads like this one it strikes my head.

If devellopers succeed in that matter next-gen, i think that next-next-gen we may just be at the time where Wasabi gets his details. Graphics will then hit some kind of plateau (because if you want to pull a pixar you will be able to) and then you'll have maybe more time or you will need to focus elsewhere just as much (if not more) as the visuals.

 

[Jiggy]

I feel as if old cg, while many times not even looking graphically as nice as some new games, still feels more "alive" and natural...because of its intricasies and naturally flowing animations....not because of the detail of its models or environments.

Kind of like why I still prefer the realistic animations of AKI N64 wrestling games to the ninja speed garbage seen in Smackdown and Day of Reckoning titles.