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Are Sega ashamed of their Saturn legacy?

Mr Hyde

Member
I've been thinking lately of Sega and the Saturn. Why is it, that Sega is never releasing a Saturn collection for current platforms? When it comes to Genesis/ Mega Drive, they are releasing collections left and right to all sorts of systems. However, the Saturn is left in the dust. I know Genesis was much more popular, and Saturn deemed a flop, but why are Sega neglecting such a big part of their history? Imagine Nintendo never re-relasing anything beyond their 16-bit efforts.

Despite its shortcomings, I loved the Saturn. It had a good library of games that were unique and fun, and it set themselves apart from Playstation. I would love to see a Saturn collection with all the classics that Sega released for the system.

Virtua Fighter 2, Dark Savior, Burning Rangers, Nights, Sonic R, Sega Rally, Legend of Oasis, Clockwork Knight and its sequel, Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2, Shining the Holy Ark, Last Bronx.

There are a lot of good games here, trapped on a mostly forgotten system. It's a shame Sega isn't updating them to current standard and is releasing a collection of old Saturn classics. I think a collection like that would sell quite well.
 
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Tbh, most of the games aren’t that great. OP pretty much summarized the best games for the system and there aren’t many left. If you want 3D and rpgs games go for PS1, fighters go for Neo Geo, 3D platforms go for the N64… I still love the Saturn because I lived that era but there isn’t appeal for newer audiences.
 
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Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
For some of those games, it would be better to get the arcade release.
For example, Virtua Fighter 1&2, Sega Rally, Last Bronx, Fighting Vipers, Daytona, etc.
Indeed, and a bunch of them are already available:

Virtua Fighter 1 > Astro City Mini
Virtua Fighter 2 > Judgment Remaster, Yakuza Kiwami 2
Fighting Vipers > Judgment
Daytona > Xbox BC
Panzer Dragoon 1 > Panzer Dragoon Orta XBox BC

And yeah Sega is not ashamed of Saturn, emulation was just more complicated than genesis ones.
 
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Chukhopops

Member
The first issue is that you can’t release PS1/Saturn era games unless you massively remaster them because they have aged really badly compared to 2D games. And not that many people would know about those compared to PS1 games.

Another issue is that a lot are fighting / racing games which also age badly (try to play VF2 in the Yakuza series, it’s unplayable by today’s standards).

Some titles are also available like Nights (XBLA/PC), Jet Set Radio, Panzer Dragoon etc. What’s left is a couple good RPGs at the end of the day.
 

PhaseJump

Gold Member
Sega is dead.

Sammy bought them for their real estate and took over the management roles, and their newer management has been juggling it's old "legacy" like a kid rummaging through an old toy box to find out what makes money in the era of nostalgia remasters and mini consoles. They've had success in the second half of the brand's life, but why would they be ashamed of the Saturn in any way, when it was the only success in Japan, and the major reason the original company went to hell globally so far enough that they could be taken over?

The only franchise that makes big money is Sonic, aside from their subsidiaries making PC games.
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
Sega would need a saturn emulator for every game.

They only released Saturn Panzer Dragoon for PS2, XBOX.
Dynamite Deka(Die Hard Arcade) (Saturn version) for PS2.
Nights into dreams (Saturn) for PS3/360. (This might be the best bet.)
Sonic R for PS2.
Cotton Guardian Force Saturn Tribute for PS4 and Switch which have terrible input lag. City Connection is the dev/publisher.
The ports on PC in the 90'. Sega Rally, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter Remix. (Virtua Fighter 2 seems like an arcade port).
That is all I can remember.

We never saw Saturn collection on any system ever.
 

Arioco

Member
Sega has nothing to be ashamed of. Saturn has a hell of a library and many gems from that era are exclusive to that console. The fact that it couldn't compete with PSX doesn't mean Saturn was a bad console. It was my first 32 bit console and honestly, I had a blast. The day I played Panzer Dragoon for the first time was... I have no words to explain it, I just had never played something like that before. The graphics, the soundtrack, the the art design... Everything was unbelievable. And Sega ported some of its best arcades to Saturn. Games like Sega Rally, VF2, Fighting Vipers, Daytona Usa... were among the best you could play, because being honest Sega had the best arcades out there. Not to mention that if you liked 2D fighting games Saturn was a dream come true.

I still prefer Dreamcast but I think Saturn's library was better and has more variety. It deserved better.
 
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FStubbs

Member
It's a company, it has no feelings and the decision making is tied to money making, stop projecting and antropomorphising.
People say this and it's not exactly true. Companies are comprised of people and often have cultures, values, and mission statements.

Sure, some companies would turn their workers into soylent green if it showed a $1 profit over the next 4 quarters. Others would voluntarily fold up shop first.

Translated to a gaming example - Level 5 would've made a decent of money over the years porting to Xbox. Especially the 360 which had a jRPG audience. But because of True Fantasy online, they never, ever would.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Most of Saturn software has already appeared elsewhere.

Guardian Heroes, Radiant Silvergun. Most shmups, fighters etc are available elsewhere. A big reason to own Saturn were the fighters and shmups, those are bested long ago.

Sega's own games like Virtual On, VF, VC, Sega Rally, Daytona, Panzer Dragoon and Nights they're all playable on other systems as well and often superior. Some of them aren't, like PD Saga, Dragon Force, Shining Force 3 trilogy and Holy Ark. But I would say these probably aren't worth it for Sega to overhaul.
 

Ladioss

Member
The Japanese side of the Saturn library if full of great titles; Tengai Makyo 4 The Apocalypse is one of the best JRPG of the generation. Truly the spiritual successor of the PC Engine, the Genesis and some of the more quirky titles of the SFC if you combined the three platforms.

More than emulation, I think Saturn software suffer of two problems : lack of good, cheap and easy technical pathway to bring Saturn games to modern platforms (emulation is not perfect, source code may be missing, etc) and lack of commercial success during the lifetime of the hardware. Those two problems add up to a situation where both demand and offer for Saturn games is weak.
 

6502

Member
At least the original hardware was well built. Mine has been connected for 20 years played every few days. Even got a reproduction pad (though I do prefer the squishy original dpad and buttons).

Also were sega not caught reprinting (or licensing reprints) on Saturn like 10 years ago?

I think they would take the money if they felt it was there.
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
I think they got rid of some of the source codes, and a lot of these games were really really good. I guess the corporate grudge, for the money lost, was a serious deal.

I just want a remaster of Panzer Dragoon Zwei and Saga.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
They likely don't have the source code and even if they did, probably aren't willing to spend the money to get the games running outside of Saturn hardware.

Saturn is God-Tier, best Sega console outside the Genesis and even then, I prefer the Saturn. It's library doesn't come close to the what the PSX offered but the Saturn is king when it comes to shmups & fighters. It has enough 3rd party stuff & exclusives to make it worth your while.

Powerslave, Quake, Resident Evil, Deep Fear, Die Hard Arcade, Fighter's Megamix, Virtua Fighter 2, Street Fighter Zero 2, Radiant Silvergun, Shining the Holy Ark, Shining Force 3, Albert Odyssey, Panzer Dragoon trilogy, etc.
 

PJX

Member
People say this and it's not exactly true. Companies are comprised of people and often have cultures, values, and mission statements.

Sure, some companies would turn their workers into soylent green if it showed a $1 profit over the next 4 quarters. Others would voluntarily fold up shop first.

Translated to a gaming example - Level 5 would've made a decent of money over the years porting to Xbox. Especially the 360 which had a jRPG audience. But because of True Fantasy online, they never, ever would.
Which funnily enough is their fault.
 

Squarehard

Member
Biggest anime betrayal!
 

RAIDEN1

Member
There is a reason that outside of Japan it sold poorly....there was recent video by Sega Lord X on Saturn v the Arcade and it is a no-contest....the Arcade wins out 99% of the time..(from a technical standpoint of view...) end of the day Sega were a "one-hit wonder" which was the genesis hence why you see so many "gensis collections" and no "dreamcast mini" or a Sega Saturn collection...it will always remain a mystery how from the highs of the Sega Genesis they hit absolute rock bottom with the Sega saturn, difficult to develop for, pop-in overload, you name it...I mean we know who the father of the Playstation is, a certain Mr Kuturagi, but WHO was the father of the Saturn?
 

cireza

Member
Tbh, most of the games aren’t that great.
Most of the best Saturn stuff never left Japan and most weren’t made by Sega.
I'm pretty sure the Saturn was a flop
I see the usual untrue arguments already made it into this Saturn thread.

Saturn has a ton of great games. The West received a ton of great games. SEGA made a ton of great Saturn games. Saturn was profitable for SEGA.

but WHO was the father of the Saturn?
Who was the father of the MegaDrive ? You have no clue, yet admit that the MegaDrive was a huge success.

I don't think that SEGA are ashamed of their Saturn library. A ton of Saturn games have been re-released or remade. Building an emulator that runs the games is maybe a bit tricky to reach the quality standards required for a commercial product.
 
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While successful in Japan, i believe the Sega Saturn is viewed as a forgettable product that's not a priority to replicate for SEGA, besides that, the current company is not the same one as it was back then.

Most of Saturn software has already appeared elsewhere.

Guardian Heroes, Radiant Silvergun. Most shmups, fighters etc are available elsewhere. A big reason to own Saturn were the fighters and shmups, those are bested long ago.

Sega's own games like Virtual On, VF, VC, Sega Rally, Daytona, Panzer Dragoon and Nights they're all playable on other systems as well and often superior. Some of them aren't, like PD Saga, Dragon Force, Shining Force 3 trilogy and Holy Ark. But I would say these probably aren't worth it for Sega to overhaul.

Well, that's irrelevant for the collector's market. And it's also irrelevant because ports released elsewhere don't dismiss their existence on the original hardware. Otherwise, i can dismiss everything, because i have a desktop machine that can emulate everything (including the Sega Saturn) and there's barely anything exclusive on home consoles apart from the Switch alone, haha.

Anyway, apart from the fundamental irrelevancy of ports existing elsewhere, it's also not true in this particular case (funnily enough, it is true in most cases for most home consoles, except the Sega Saturn). A significant portion of Saturn's software is exclusive on the machine, and exclusive to Japan. Thanks to efforts by its dedicated community (especially recently in 2020/2021) we have access to them via quality translation patches, but there are many more exceptional video games stuck there because of the language barrier: Princess Crown, Wachenroder, Terra Phantastica, Tengai Makyou: The 4th Apocalypse, etc.

Another portion consists of close-to-perfect or perfect-arcade-ports, yes. But what separates these from the arcade originals (only available nowadays via MAME/Other emulators or some of the collection re-releases), apart from their physical availability/collectability, is that most have varying degrees of polish or extra content exclusive to the Saturn. In some cases a lot of extra content that by comparison loading up MAME or whatever official collection of what is essentially arcade roms to play the bare-bones arcade version is like playing a demo of the thing. Like say, Street Fighter Zero 3 (Alpha 3). I can emulate that on anything or play it officially on a slew of collections, but that's just the arcade port. The home console release (Saturn/PSX) had a ton of single-player content and between the Saturn version and the PSX version the Saturn version is better with all the single-player content of the Playstation port and extra modifications/polish exclusive to the Saturn.

And lastly, another portion consists of games that are shared with other machines, but some of them are best played on the Saturn. Like Policenauts (which recently got a fantastic fan translation) Twinkle Star Sprites (with a huge amount of content exclusive for the Saturn), Vandal Hearts - Ushinawareta Kodai Bunmei (which is a better version than the PSX one and the translation patch goes way beyond with a whole slew of improvements you can read about here), etc.

Guardian Heroes and Radiant Silvergun are emulated digitally available ports only available on Xbox products, yes. They're nice alternatives if you have an Xbox product (i don't) and don't have a Sega Saturn. But that's what they are - alternatives. If you have a Sega Saturn, then you're acquiring and playing Guardian Heroes and Radiant Silvergun, because they're the physical real deal perfectly intended to be on the original machine, you can buy them, collect them and re-sell them later because they're never losing their value as a collector's item. Nights into Dreams has a fantastic remake, i agree, though it does control better with the Saturn 3D Pad and there's some content missing, also Christmas NiGHTS - which is an unlockable in the HD version - is basically a shell that's missing all of the content that made it great. With that said, it's a perfectly viable alternative. But it's also fantastic on the Saturn, it's an iconic game and a no-brainer to collect.

The Panzer Dragoon Remake .. is less of a 'fantastic' remake, and more of an attempt i highly respect but fell a little short of its intended mark. The artstyle of the remake is far less cohesive than the original. The camera system, the controls and the hitboxes range from being slightly worse than the original to irritatingly bad, they're inconsistent. It's a decent remake, and even if it was a perfect remake, that doesn't superseed the original; same way the RE Remake doesn't superseed the original.
 
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FStubbs

Member
Which funnily enough is their fault.
Right, but they blamed Microsoft and refused to work with them again or support their console. Showing that companies can be irrational and act on feelings.
 
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Azurro

Gold Member
I've been thinking lately of Sega and the Saturn. Why is it, that Sega is never releasing a Saturn collection for current platforms? When it comes to Genesis/ Mega Drive, they are releasing collections left and right to all sorts of systems. However, the Saturn is left in the dust. I know Genesis was much more popular, and Saturn deemed a flop, but why are Sega neglecting such a big part of their history? Imagine Nintendo never re-relasing anything beyond their 16-bit efforts.

Despite its shortcomings, I loved the Saturn. It had a good library of games that were unique and fun, and it set themselves apart from Playstation. I would love to see a Saturn collection with all the classics that Sega released for the system.

Virtua Fighter 2, Dark Savior, Burning Rangers, Nights, Sonic R, Sega Rally, Legend of Oasis, Clockwork Knight and its sequel, Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2, Shining the Holy Ark, Last Bronx.

There are a lot of good games here, trapped on a mostly forgotten system. It's a shame Sega isn't updating them to current standard and is releasing a collection of old Saturn classics. I think a collection like that would sell quite well.

You are probably anthropomorphizing Sega here, it's a company, so it doesn't really have the concept of being ashamed. It's just that the Genesis/MegaDrive was a pretty big success, so the market of people nostalgic for it is way bigger than the people that ever played Saturn games, that's most likely why you see collections for one and not the other.
 

Deerock71

Member
I see the usual untrue arguments already made it into this Saturn thread.

Saturn has a ton of great games. The West received a ton of great games. SEGA made a ton of great Saturn games. Saturn was profitable for SEGA.


Who was the father of the MegaDrive ? You have no clue, yet admit that the MegaDrive was a huge success.

I don't think that SEGA are ashamed of their Saturn library. A ton of Saturn games have been re-released or remade. Building an emulator that runs the games is maybe a bit tricky to reach the quality standards required for a commercial product.
9.26 million units

With lifetime sales of 9.26 million units, the Saturn is considered a commercial failure, although its install base in Japan surpassed the Nintendo 64's 5.54 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki

Sega Saturn - Wikipedia


I guess you've got some correcting to do over at wikipedia, then.
 

nkarafo

Member
I wish they would embrace their Model 2 and 3 games more, many are still unported to home systems.
Instead we just keep getting repacked MegaDrive games
This.

All of it's 3D arcade ports would be better in their actual arcade form rather than the butchered Saturn versions.

The Saturn had the best ports from CPS/CPS 2 arcades though, thanks to it's RAM cart but none of these games can't be easily found on MAME. Though, it might worth playing some of them on Saturn for the extra FMVs and better sound.

Home console ports wise it's not great. Quake was a miracle but it's far better on PC. Duke Nukem 3D is also better on PC but the Saturn version is the only one that has a different (better) engine, so it's worth playing it just for that. I would add Powerslave but the recent remaster made it obsolete. Most other ports like RE, Wipeout, DOOM, Tomb Raider, etc were usually better on PS1.

There are some good exclusives. But not Sonic R. That game was awful.
 
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Warnen

Can he swing from a thread? Take a look overhead / Hey, there, there goes the Spider-Man
I see the usual untrue arguments already made it into this Saturn thread.

Saturn has a ton of great games. The West received a ton of great games. SEGA made a ton of great Saturn games. Saturn was profitable for SEGA.


Who was the father of the MegaDrive ? You have no clue, yet admit that the MegaDrive was a huge success.

I don't think that SEGA are ashamed of their Saturn library. A ton of Saturn games have been re-released or remade. Building an emulator that runs the games is maybe a bit tricky to reach the quality standards required for a commercial product.

i loved the Saturn sure there were lots of great games but don’t be blind the best never came out here. All those glorious 2d shooters side scrollers and fighters…. Never saw the light of day here. Also 3d games from that era don’t hold up 2d still looks fantastc.
 

cireza

Member
9.26 million units

With lifetime sales of 9.26 million units, the Saturn is considered a commercial failure, although its install base in Japan surpassed the Nintendo 64's 5.54 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki

Sega Saturn - Wikipedia


I guess you've got some correcting to do over at wikipedia, then.
This might come as a surprise, but because some guy wrote something in wikipedia doesn't mean it is the truth.

the best never came out here
This is an hyperbole. What you are saying is that all the best games were not released in the West. This is largely wrong. There are some great games that stayed in Japan, but the large majority of the best games of the console were released in the West. And the library is certainly much larger than simply 2D fighters and shmups.
 

cireza

Member
From the same geniuses that brought you Master System was a commercial failure, SEGA-CD was a commercial failure, Game Gear was a commercial failure and Dreamcast was a commercial failure, their new masterpiece :

Saturn was a commercial failure

With the most reliable sources as backup : some guy who wrote something somewhere and another guy that said something that sounded like that.

These machines were never acknowledged by SEGA as commercial failures, with the exception of the Dreamcast where facts demonstrate it clearly.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
SEGA is notorious for losing Panzer Dragoon Saga's source code, Idk why people equate that to losing it for every game or why they bring it up for re-releases that can use emulation (and yes, Saturn emulation has been great for a decade, but SEGA would do their own for commercial releases).
This.

All of it's 3D arcade ports would be better in their actual arcade form rather than the butchered Saturn versions.

The Saturn had the best ports from CPS/CPS 2 arcades though, thanks to it's RAM cart but none of these games can't be easily found on MAME. Though, it might worth playing some of them on Saturn for the extra FMVs and better sound.

Home console ports wise it's not great. Quake was a miracle but it's far better on PC. Duke Nukem 3D is also better on PC but the Saturn version is the only one that has a different (better) engine, so it's worth playing it just for that. I would add Powerslave but the recent remaster made it obsolete. Most other ports like RE, Wipeout, DOOM, Tomb Raider, etc were usually better on PS1.

There are some good exclusives. But not Sonic R. That game was awful.
All true but Saturn still has plenty great games that aren't arcade ports (or are ST-V ports so they're 99.99% identical and they aren't re-released either anyway) and could use a re-release. Not that anyone says SEGA shouldn't re-release their arcade games, they should, this is about Saturn is all.
 
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cireza

Member
All I said was I was PRETTY SURE the Saturn was a flop, and you blew an O-ring.
I am currently reading your wikipedia link, and it is full mistakes and ridiculous sources. Often, no sources at all.

Neo Geo CD was a commercial failure ? I don't see how anyone can say this. They made 2 revisions of the console.

Let's look at the article.

Their Japanese division had produced an excess number of single speed units and found that modifying these units to double speed was more expensive than they had initially thought, so SNK opted to sell them as they were, postponing production of a double speed model until they had sold off the stock of single speed units.

The CDZ does not have a double speed drive, or at least this point is largely controversial. Damn, something written in wikipedia is wrong. And not a single source saying that the console was seen as a commercial failure. Why is it listed then ? Who knows...

Sega-CD is listed. How in the world can anyone conclude that it was a commercial failure ?

By the time Sega discontinued the unit as part of the shift towards the Sega Saturn, the unit had sold only 2.24 million units worldwide

This is a largely understimated total of sales for the console, provided from a Japanese source that most certainly did not take into account all regions and all variations of the add-on. It was supported worldwide for 6 years and had a revision. It was also very expensive, but still moved much more than 2,24 millions units. So by whose standard can it be considered a failure ? I don't see it. If anything, it was profitable for SEGA.

Playstation Vita was a commercial failure ? WTF... They sold 15 millions of this console.

The source to backup that the Saturn was a commercial failure is :
Lefton, Terry (1998). "Looking for a Sonic Boom"

Damn, that sounds super reliable.

That's why reading stuff from wikipedia is nice, but having some real insight helps.
 
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Deerock71

Member
I am currently reading your wikipedia link, and it is full mistakes and ridiculous sources. Often, no sources at all.

Neo Geo CD was a commercial failure ? I don't see how anyone can say this. They made 2 revisions of the console.

Let's look at the article.

Their Japanese division had produced an excess number of single speed units and found that modifying these units to double speed was more expensive than they had initially thought, so SNK opted to sell them as they were, postponing production of a double speed model until they had sold off the stock of single speed units.

The CDZ does not have a double speed drive. Damn, something written in wikipedia is wrong. And not a single source saying that the console was seen as a commercial failure. Why is it listed then ? Who knows...

Sega-CD is listed. How in the world can anyone conclude that it was a commercial failure ?

By the time Sega discontinued the unit as part of the shift towards the Sega Saturn, the unit had sold only 2.24 million units worldwide

This is a largely understimated total of sales for the console, provided from a Japanese source that most certainly did not take into account all regions and all variations of the add-on. It was supported worldwide for 6 years and had a revision. It was also very expensive, but still moved much more than 2,24 millions units. So by whose standard can it be considered a failure ? I don't see it. If anything, it was profitable for SEGA.

Playstation Vita was a commercial failure ? WTF...

The source to backup that the Saturn was a commercial failure is :
Lefton, Terry (1998). "Looking for a Sonic Boom"

Damn, that sounds super reliable.

That's why reading stuff from wikipedia is nice, but having some real insight helps.
Hacking Blah Blah Blah Blah GIF by Giflytics
 

Ozzie666

Member
So ashamed, they lost the original code for Panzer Dragoon. So who knows how much actually survived from that time period. I wouldn't mistake shame for lack of care. They have one of the best back catalogues in gaming, which they continue to ignore.
 

01011001

Gold Member
For some of those games, it would be better to get the arcade release.
For example, Virtua Fighter 1&2, Sega Rally, Last Bronx, Fighting Vipers, Daytona, etc.

exactly. the Saturn wasn't great when it came to performance and the graphical downgrades to the games was also pretty noticeable.

so Arcade is usually the way to go for their re-releases. also Saturn emulation is still spotty afaik
 
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