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Are there any alternatives to ray tracing that can get similar results?

Velius

Banned
The 5600X
Nice. I've heard that Cyberpunk isn't too CPU heavy so the 3080 Ti makes sense.

I'm trying to get either a gigabyte aorus xtreme 3090 or 3080 Ti. I don't know which AIB is best but that's got to be one of the higher end ones. I figure if I get that, a 5900x, and 64GB DDR4, I should be able to run 1440p with RT at 60FPS.

What's your typical average FPS in the city at night?
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Nice. I've heard that Cyberpunk isn't too CPU heavy so the 3080 Ti makes sense.

I'm trying to get either a gigabyte aorus xtreme 3090 or 3080 Ti. I don't know which AIB is best but that's got to be one of the higher end ones. I figure if I get that, a 5900x, and 64GB DDR4, I should be able to run 1440p with RT at 60FPS.

What's your typical average FPS in the city at night?

Honestly, soon as you raise up resolution (not 1080p like CPU reviews), almost all the top tier CPU list normalize with barely a difference in most games. Without streaming I’m pretty sure the 5600X is plenty.

I got sidetracked to Metro exodus, but yea, when I tested Cyberpunk, it was right in the middle of the city during night, ~65 fps. I’ll probably go back to it and optimize settings from DF’s optimized settings to try to get more.

Metro exodus at ultra and high RT at 120 fps is a face melter, been hooked on it for a few days now.
 

Velius

Banned
Honestly, soon as you raise up resolution (not 1080p like CPU reviews), almost all the top tier CPU list normalize with barely a difference in most games. Without streaming I’m pretty sure the 5600X is plenty.

I got sidetracked to Metro exodus, but yea, when I tested Cyberpunk, it was right in the middle of the city during night, ~65 fps. I’ll probably go back to it and optimize settings from DF’s optimized settings to try to get more.

Metro exodus at ultra and high RT at 120 fps is a face melter, been hooked on it for a few days now.
Oh FUCK YES. Thank you!!!
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I was wondering because I have played several games with excellent lighting that didn't use ray tracing. A prime example would be the Moscow multiplayer level on COD: Cold War. There is no ray tracing in multiplayer because I play at 120fps in 1080p. But that particular map has some of the best lighting I have ever seen especially when you are outside on the street. So I am asking is there another way to get similar results but does ray tracing make it easier to do at the expense of system resources.

The answer is "not really, but it depends what you means."

Obviously there has been a ton of progress in creating realistic looking rendering without raytracing, and you can fake a lot of things pretty convincingly. Particularly in static environments where you can bake a lot of your lighting and make bespoke cube maps for reflections and all of that you can create some pretty good looking results.

But it doesn't mean that they're doing what ray.tracing does. A lot of times fake lighting puts a much heavier burden on artists to get it looking convincing.

There are some software methods like Lumen, and SVOGI that handle lighting in a similar.way to RT but with sparse data instead of full RT. So that minutes that qualify for.what you're talking about.
 
Nothing can really beat raytracing. It's kinda similar to how light itself works. If we want realistic looking games then raytracing is what we should be aiming for. Yes you can try imitate it but it take a lot of work and will never be as good.

Just look at game settings as they have been for years. We've had shadow, AO, global illumination, SSR, etc which are all kinds of raytracing. We've been faking it all this time and raytracing is the real deal. Unfortuantly it's still really demanding so a lot of stuff is still pre baked which is why raytracing only looks marginally better at the moment. I can't wait for the days when all games are fully raytraced by default.
 
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Haggard

Banned
the only thing we are disagreeing about here are the terms used. lighting has many methods and terminologies that get mixed in together. when I say basic GI I just mean dynamic lighting. something as simple as day/night cycle, indoors lights off/on. this isn't baked ligting and it isn't full RT.
You´re still mixing up the terms here.

When you talk about general "Full RT" you`re basically talking about path tracing.
Then you have the partial implementations of RT as we have them now, where it`s "only" used for shadows or global illumination or reflections for example.
Out of those partial implementations global illumination is by far the most expensive one at decent accuracy levels.
I called it "Full RT GI" to emphasize that I mean a GI implementation completely RT based as you can further water this down (besides bounces and ray count) on individual object level in most engines.
 
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Is it possible to have hybrid between ray tracing and screen space reflection?

Ray tracing to mark objects that should be reflected. With screen space reflection to create actual reflected image.

Sending more rays to get higher resolution reflection is such a waste of resources.
 

FireFly

Member
It should say the very minimum of GI to say the very least. He's the only one to ever say this, and I would trust every single developer, Nvidia, and AMD, as they are the ones who directly work on them, whether it be programming or creating the hardware.

TLDR: Cerny is the only person in the world to say this, when everyone else says otherwise.
Well, Nvidia's RTXGI seems a lot less costly, and from what I understand, Metro's solution has some similarities.
 

FireFly

Member
Ray tracing to mark objects that should be reflected. With screen space reflection to create actual reflected image.
I don't see how that would work, since screen space reflections rely on information that's already visible on screen. Games already blend ray traced reflections with SSR, but for off screen objects, you are reliant on ray tracing only (or some other fallback, like cube maps).
 
It should say the very minimum of GI to say the very least. He's the only one to ever say this, and I would trust every single developer, Nvidia, and AMD, as they are the ones who directly work on them, whether it be programming or creating the hardware.

TLDR: Cerny is the only person in the world to say this, when everyone else says otherwise.
To be fair, global illumination has been around for years. There were games on the last generation of consoles that used global illumination and as far as I can remember Half Life 2 was one of the first, if not the first titles to support global illumination.
There are many titles that you could look for but remembering Digital Foundry's analysis of Killzone Shadowfall where they discussed the global illumination and the use of audio raytracing in that project.
I've not chosen that game for any other reason than I remember the DF article.
It's what's been known as 2.5D ray-tracing andI don't know if it's somethng that is still used but you did used to get discussions on places like gamedev.net. I'm in no way a developer so I'll admit that it was quite often over my head but it was still fun to follow things like that.
Managed to find the raytraced audio video but you're better off reading the actual article if you want proper details.
 
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I don't see how that would work, since screen space reflections rely on information that's already visible on screen. Games already blend ray traced reflections with SSR, but for off screen objects, you are reliant on ray tracing only (or some other fallback, like cube maps).

Can't they use object from ram or something?

Not a developer, but sending infinite amount of rays to recreate object when you already know how it looks seems kinda waste of processing power.
 

Altares13th

Member
If the lighting isn't dynamic, you can get extremely close just by baking all the lighting.
Actually that is not exactly correct. You get BETTER results that realtime raytracing when baking simply before you are not constrained by time.

It always depends on the use case. But let's face it, most of the time you want your lightning to be fixed in order to dress-up the scene. There are exceptions: open world games..etc.
Only reason (all) devs see this as a game changer is because it improves their pipeline quite a lot. No need to bake anymore, you see the results while you modify the scene. It simplifies things.
Also, not all aspects of light transport can be baked. 99% of materials have a reflection component in their properties and without RT you cannot simulate that part easily. (except if the object is a sphere).

To those who do not know. Baking is using raytracing on the developer's machine in order to create textures which describe the fixed diffuse lightning on objects. It can be very very high quality, but it eats up a lot of VRAM (and developers time).
 

FireFly

Member
Can't they use object from ram or something?

Not a developer, but sending infinite amount of rays to recreate object when you already know how it looks seems kinda waste of processing power.
Well, the act of determining how an object would look from a given angle, is rendering, right? And that's not "free". So you can just render another copy of the scene from the angle at which objects would be reflecting, which is how planar reflections work. But since it doesn't capture the properties of the light itself, it won't work for curved surfaces. And since you're rendering the entire scene again for each reflective surface, it's not super efficient either.
 

Three

Member
Is it possible to have hybrid between ray tracing and screen space reflection?

Ray tracing to mark objects that should be reflected. With screen space reflection to create actual reflected image.

Sending more rays to get higher resolution reflection is such a waste of resources.
What? They might be able to do SSR and then ray trace parts where there is no data on screen.
 
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SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Is it possible to have hybrid between ray tracing and screen space reflection?

Ray tracing to mark objects that should be reflected. With screen space reflection to create actual reflected image.

Sending more rays to get higher resolution reflection is such a waste of resources.
Yes, some games use a hybrid, like the Enhanced Edition of Metro Exodus, but it doesn't work how you're saying.

SSR only allows for reflections based on what's rendered on screen, so whenever you see SSR it's pretty much always a hybrid. The parts of the reflection that can't be pulled from screen space get filled in, usually by cube maps but you can use RT instead. This is especially useful if you're using a simplified version of the scene in reflections that won't be as detailed as SSR.
 

ZywyPL

Banned
Depends on the effect we're talking about. GI? Looking at Crytec's SVOGI, Epic's Lumen, Nvdia's VXGI etc.it's fair to say that yes, there can be a reasonable non-RT solution. AO? Things like SSAO and HBAO+ exist for quite some time. Shadows? Same deal, stuff like PCSS or HFTS from Nvidia are years old tech with quite realistic results, especially HFTS. Reflections? Now this is the part where it's really really hard to mimic what RT is doing in that regard, you can completely tank the performance and still not get even a quarter of the effect RT gives.

It all comes down to efficiency, you could make a game today heavily packed with NV tech like VXGI+HBAO+HFTS+HW and it would look absolutely stunning, but each of those techs alone requires a ton of processing power, let alone all combined, while still not being as accurate as RT.
 

Haggard

Banned
Looking at Crytec's SVOGI
That´s also RT just not per-pixel.

Epic's Lumen
Also uses dumbed down software RT.

Nvdia's VXGI
Is also a voxel based RT solution afaik.

.........
it's fair to say that yes, there can be a reasonable non-RT solution.
At best it´s fair to say that even dumbed down RT is miles better than the old static lightprobing while not being as costly as full blown RT.

If it`s about realistic dynamic light bouncing of any kind there is no way around some kind or ray tracing.
 
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Is it possible to have hybrid between ray tracing and screen space reflection?
Yes, I can't recall which, but some games will do screen space for objects further away, or those that would glitch using only screen space information (I think Miles Morales does it, but don't quote me on this).
Ray tracing to mark objects that should be reflected. With screen space reflection to create actual reflected image.
Not really, not all objects that are reflected are on the screen, or completely visible, or the angle does not necessarily gives an accurate reflection.
Sending more rays to get higher resolution reflection is such a waste of resources.
It depends how much resources you have, screen space reflections could be considered a "waste or resources" on weaker hardware... requiring a fallback to cube maps.

Accuracy has a cost, it's true that it's not always worth it, but given how a game like Ratchet and Clank: Rift a Part looks and plays at 60fps I would say that the current consoles make it worth at least considering.
 

Keihart

Member
What can't be done without RT would be a more apt question, the real difference right now is in performance and not quality.
You can do realistic reflections without RT but it costs more performance, so there RT wins most of the time unless you are ok with lower fidelity like SSR.
GI without RT can achieve similar or better results without RT depending of the implementations, so it will depend on the engine and game.

RT is really not about quality right now, it's just really good when it can save performance for similar rasterized effects.

(i'm obviously referring to RT as the hardware accelerated implementations like RTX and not the abstract concept that has been used for years now to fake it)
 
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Actually that is not exactly correct. You get BETTER results that realtime raytracing when baking simply before you are not constrained by time.

It always depends on the use case. But let's face it, most of the time you want your lightning to be fixed in order to dress-up the scene. There are exceptions: open world games..etc.
Only reason (all) devs see this as a game changer is because it improves their pipeline quite a lot. No need to bake anymore, you see the results while you modify the scene. It simplifies things.
Also, not all aspects of light transport can be baked. 99% of materials have a reflection component in their properties and without RT you cannot simulate that part easily. (except if the object is a sphere).

To those who do not know. Baking is using raytracing on the developer's machine in order to create textures which describe the fixed diffuse lightning on objects. It can be very very high quality, but it eats up a lot of VRAM (and developers time).
Except if they keep putting different graphics modes in the games such as performance mode with no RT, then they need to manually add in the cube maps and screen space reflections to fall back on thus requiring the same amount of work as before.
 
I was wondering because I have played several games with excellent lighting that didn't use ray tracing. A prime example would be the Moscow multiplayer level on COD: Cold War. There is no ray tracing in multiplayer
Yes and no. There's no real-time ray tracing being done, so that much is true...but ray tracing brought you some of that lighting. See when all the lights in your scene are static, especially the sun, you can ray trace the lighting and then bake it into the map. That will give you realistic lighting without the performance cost, with the caveat that you can't update it in real time or include dynamic lights.
 
DICE used something called Radiosity for Mirrors Edge & Battlefield.

It was handy for colour bounce and giving more smoothed lighting effects.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Depends on the effect we're talking about. GI? Looking at Crytec's SVOGI, Epic's Lumen, Nvdia's VXGI etc.it's fair to say that yes, there can be a reasonable non-RT solution. AO? Things like SSAO and HBAO+ exist for quite some time. Shadows? Same deal, stuff like PCSS or HFTS from Nvidia are years old tech with quite realistic results, especially HFTS. Reflections? Now this is the part where it's really really hard to mimic what RT is doing in that regard, you can completely tank the performance and still not get even a quarter of the effect RT gives.

It all comes down to efficiency, you could make a game today heavily packed with NV tech like VXGI+HBAO+HFTS+HW and it would look absolutely stunning, but each of those techs alone requires a ton of processing power, let alone all combined, while still not being as accurate as RT.
It's also worth mentioning that these GI solutions like SVOGI or Lumen are not necessarily more performant than comparable implementations of GI that do use triangle ray tracing. They don't really have much benefit on hardware that has good RT acceleration.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
What’s the chance of a midgen or nextgen console refresh with a dedicated ray tracing chip?

These consoles already have RT hardware in the GPU. But you can never do RT "for free" even with that, other parts of the system (the CPU etc) need to be involved in setting it up, so you're always gonna take a performance hit. You can't fully offload all of that to a dedicated chip or whatever.
 

T0minator

Member
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I'm not expert in tech but ray tracing in Ratchet on PS5 looks amazing... the use of lighting and reflections is almost flawless
 
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