Are Western RPG players of today really nerds? Or are we looking at jocks.

[Dehnus]

The title is a question I've had for a long time. Many times nerds and geeks get accused by a subgroup within feminism for being oppressive and not wishing women in their hobby. I always found this an odd assumption as in my own direct environment of D&D players in school most of them were women. Hippies as myself and total geeks, neither based on gender.

Then while I was going over the following on N4G, and again almost blowing a fuse at the "They should do what their fanbase wants! WE ARE THEIR FANBASE!" crap:
http://n4g.com/news/2021028/why-does-mass-effect-andromedas-female-characters-look-so-ugly

I asked myself: Are we not dealing with jocks here. The winners of the Patriarchal society in school, who can't deal with being second fiddle now to the top earners in society. So while most of the traditional nerdy RPG gaming of WRPG's was retooled to fit a more action orientated gameplay (heck Mass Effect is just a shooter really, one with a nice story.. but just a shooter)... and had even more added to their already highly privileged lifestyle, they still feel the "even this they wish to take from us!" emotion about something that really originally never was "only theirs" to begin with.

But I digress about the reasons beyond why these men are so violent in their rhetoric when they are mostly winners. More to the point:
The anger is about why the women in the game aren't complete objects for them, and yes some Feminist sources have been using bikini armour (both male and female) to make valid points (also some invalid ones), but not enough for this group of men to be so angry about, I know D&D players in RL, they dopn't bother with Bioware any more as it isn't an RPG for them any longer, yet they never cared about how the characters looked on the screen. (Outside of that marvellous art that Wizard of the lost coasts makes and often used for portrait pictures ),

It seems like these people don't care one bit about the character creator or story, they would not spend hours on end trying to make the characters they like for their adventure. No.. the main complaint is that "Ryder is not an instant piece of ass, for them to look at and fap too" when pressing all the defaults. Something that never was the case in any WRPG, character creating was a huge part of the gameplay experience.

So, aren't we just looking at loser jocks here? And has traditional western RPG as a game more or less died off (outside of pillars of eternity) as that crowd certainly doesn't seem to get catered to any more.

Also: much of their argument seems to be about women having short hair? What's up with that?

 

[DNAbro]

I'm not seeing some logic here. People complaining about her looks isn't a jock/nerd thing.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I'm a nerd and I still play RPGs Particularly western rpgs. If you say otherwise I'll give you a swirly, nerd.

 

[Human Trashcan]

Gonna be honest OP, I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and I tried. If you're trying to decide if gamers are jocks or nerds... what? Why? How? Aside from being really, really juvenile ways of looking at people outside of high school dramedies, I'm not sure why it would even matter.

This kind of smacks of "the casuals are ruining games!" only with "casuals" replaced by "jocks"

 

[Haly]

The nerd/jock dichotomy, if it was ever accurate, is outdated at this point.

 

[Budi]

And has traditional western RPG as a game more or less died off (outside of pillars of eternity) as that crowd certainly doesn't seem to get catered to any more.

I don't know about the rest, but no to this. Pillars isn't the only one. We got Tyranny, Torment, Wasteland 3 is coming (somewhere in the future), Divinity 2, Shadowrun series, smaller games like Age of Decadence and Underrail.

 

[canedaddy]

Incomprehensible. Serious question... are you drunk?

 

[Nanashrew]

Yikes, the article...

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

Huh?

 

[Yohane]

Nerdbros

 

[letmetrythisname]

I mean, in regards to Bioware's female characters looking unattractive, in DAI they certainly looked like they were designed to be unattractive, while the male characters received the opposite treatment. Like, just make everyone super hot.

But that was the only thing I made sense of in the entire OP so really I have no idea what your thesis is here.

 

[GonzoCR]

I gave it an honest try, but I have no idea what's being said in the OP.

 

[HStallion]

Both jocks and nerds can be just as ignorant and sexist as each other. Neither has a monopoly on shitty thoughts and behavior.

 

[Dehnus]

I'm not seeing some logic here. People complaining about her looks isn't a jock/nerd thing.

Well, my issue is more the genre, often I heard from certain sources that "Geeks don't want women in their hobby!" when they refer to gaming (both electronic and otherwise) and D&D. But it never really made sense to me. Yet the vitrol about Bioware regarding this minor thing seems very far from the actual D&D players that used to buy their games and games based on their engines. Like Never Winter Nights or Icewind Dale.

On top of that on most Roleplaying groups, you will find more women then men. So the whole "we made them great" point is then also flawed. So how is it nerd D&D culture to be so hateful to women and LGBTQ people, when it seems this is more the group that would be the popular guys in highschool who wouldn't be seen with the people that actually played D&D and WRPG games like Baldurs gate?

Thus hasn't the audience changed and with that the genre? Are we really talking abuot D&D/WRPG fans here... or is this just men being arses now egged on by political forces that have power to gain from them harassing artists and creators?

 

[Surface of Me]

What in the fuck?

 

[Alucrid]

maybe you should spend your time not reading garbage gg articles

 

[Stopdoor]

Yeah, I'm with the people who can't follow this logic. Nerds/jocks is also just a really pointless sort of label thing that rarely fits well.

 

[Sou Da]

I mean, in regards to Bioware's female characters looking unattractive, in DAI they certainly looked like they were designed to be unattractive, while the male characters received the opposite treatment. Like, just make everyone super hot.

But that was the only thing I made sense of in the entire OP so really I have no idea what your thesis is here.

I still can't believe people make this argument.

 

[Syf]

You're really stretching trying to fit nerds and jocks into this

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

AAA are for everybody, rpg or not.

 

[letmetrythisname]

I still can't believe people make this argument.

I mean, that's just like, my opinion. I could be way the fuck off or have shitty standards or whatever.

 

[KillLaCam]

Do people really fit stereotypes like that anymore?

Seems like gaming is too popular now to just assume that the nerdy kid plays RPGs and the Athlete only plays GTA.

I'm confused.

 

[redcrayon]

Not that I know much about the US school system outside of imported pop culture, but do 'jocks' even exist outside of comedies regarding NA secondary schools? Are they universally horrible kids or is it just less popular kids assigning that to them regardless? It seems more of a cultural thing specific there rather than a western phenomenon. Very few of the teenagers at my school (Hertfordshire, UK) fitted so easily into such definitions as easily due to the lack of a college sports system tied into lower education. Also you don't really get the 'entire small town turns out to watch schoolkids play and it's apparently a big deal' thing here, probably due to lack of importance and opportunity placed on it. There were still hierarchies of cool kids, tough kids and outcasts (of which I was firmly the latter!) but it wasn't seemingly tied to officially recognised social status somehow derived from being on the school sports team. It was more like the 'cool' kids were the ones who had as little to do with extracurricular activities as possible. Being 'football mad' was something anyone could be, even some of my tabletop-playing pals. Admittedly this was 20+ years ago.

I suppose whole jocks/nerds/American football/the prom/small US town in nowheresville elements that make up that whole canon of exported stuff has always been a easily understandable template for growing pains that explains its popularity though. 'The Inbetweeners' was a more painfully accurate view of my school, I can't watch it as it makes me cringe even though I'm 38 now!

 

[smoothj]

They have just become more accessible to a broader audience. I notice people on FB that used to o ly play sports game get hype over games like the new Mass effect. Don't see them playing games like pillars though lol.

 

[Blyr]

I understand the sentiment you're trying to reach, in that by gaming reaching a new mainstream audience that maybe it's just the "jocks" who are the ones making a fuss about women and that the testosterone fueled angry men can't possibly handle women in any position that's not subservient in any power fantasy they might indulge, but I honestly don't think that's it.

I mean, it likely could be a very minor subset of the community, and is likely a portion of the gaming community at large, but the larger "nerd" community has been proven to be sexist for a while now, and while your anecdotal experience would suggest otherwise, you have to realize it's not the norm.

I know it's hard to disassociate yourself with the term, because we love to label things and it's not pleasant to have to look at the "nerd" community and accept that there are problems, because "I'm a nerd and I'm not sexist", but that's the thing, you AREN'T, so all you can do is foster a supportive and nurturing culture for women, minorities, and others who'd want to share your hobby.

Trying to dismiss the very real issues in our community as "the jocks" isn't going to help anyone, as nerdy western RPG D&D people we need to sit down and accept that our group has some bad seeds, and we need to kick their asses out, because they're ruining the fun for everyone else.. even if we can tolerate it and handle it, that doesn't mean we should let them be gigantic assholes who are going to scare away potential new members of our party

The thing to remember is that you, as an individual are not wrong, but that there are very specific individuals who are in the room who are in fact wrong, and they need to be shown the door. You are not a bad person, but we need to exercise the bad people from our culture, or at the very least minimize their presence, so we can show everyone how positive and and accepting our hobby and community can be

 

[Snagret]

Well, my issue is more the genre, often I heard from certain sources that "Geeks don't want women in their hobby!" when they refer to gaming (both electronic and otherwise) and D&D. But it never really made sense to me. Yet the vitrol about Bioware regarding this minor thing seems very far from the actual D&D players that used to buy their games and games based on their engines. Like Never Winter Nights or Icewind Dale.

On top of that on most Roleplaying groups, you will find more women then men. So the whole "we made them great" point is then also flawed. So how is it nerd D&D culture to be so hateful to women and LGBTQ people, when it seems this is more the group that would be the popular guys in highschool who wouldn't be seen with the people that actually played D&D and WRPG games like Baldurs gate?

Thus hasn't the audience changed and with that the genre? Are we really talking abuot D&D/WRPG fans here... or is this just men being arses now egged on by political forces that have power to gain from them harassing artists and creators?

So, you're saying that the negative fan reactions to WRPGs attempting to be more inclusive are indicative that the genre is played by more typically outgoing and masculine men, as opposed to socially reclusive and physically weaker ones?

 

[Bionic]

The venn diagram of jocks, nerds, winners, and losers doesn't seem particularly germane to either of the questions you seem to be asking. Which, to me, seem to be "why are many gamers upset at ugly/non-stereotypically-femme characters in games" and (separately) "why are old style WRPGs no longer popular/made?"

Your anecdotally inclusive gaming group does not mean that larger communities are similarly inclusive. Certainly, there are lots of diverse gaming groups. But culture is a different issue altogether. Gaming culture has a weird, heavy overlap between commercial and social forces, and those have both, for a very long time, tended to marginalize certain people in favor of showing off how handsome and macho they can make people feel. That doesn't seem to be about jocks or nerds, just about humans, power fantasies, and risk aversion in popular media. It's not how 100% of the games industry or culture or games is, but it's a lot, and it makes an impact. Some people don't like the way it is now, and they're trying to make the types of experiences and people and situations depicted in games be more diverse on a lot of fronts. Some people think that sounds awesome, and other people feel like it's putting them down and giving them less of what they want. It's not a high school cafeteria.

But if you give me $5, I'll punch that person who said they were going to give you a swirly.

 

[d00d3n]

I don't understand. Help?

 

[Dehnus]

Both jocks and nerds can be just as ignorant and sexist as each other. Neither has a monopoly on shitty thoughts and behavior.

Of course, but the argument was always made: Geeks don't like women in their hobby. Which seems odd to me as that would bind the slur to just a gender. Many women have been bullied in school too, and called geeks. Also many women, unrelated to being bullied, liked WRPGs and D&D in their original forms.

So that brings me to another point: Why not take this title away from them? They seem to have appropriated a terminology that they used to use for their own bullying. And now fence with it. So, why are we as saner people, allowing them to keep it? For all the women that are proud geeks, all the LGBTQ geeks/nerds?

Why are we buying in to them just taking it, and giving it to them by acknowledging it? I've seen quite a few otherwise dead on articles about these people, outside of referring to them as "nerds". Which in turn is really not nice for the actual D&D playing youth that are terrorized by these jerks in their schools. (That girl that writes Drow FanFiction for instance and is a Drizzt fan).


It just pisses me off that we let these jerks just get away with it. So sorry if I seem to overreact, it just is a sour point for me that the only thing they seem to care about is how much fap material they have in a game that should be about a character you've spend ages designing and writing a backstory for.... only to be for them to wish to limit you in your choices as you do wish to start a male/male love relationship or not want every woman on your party to be arm candy.

 

[inky]

Exclusive pic of the OP:

 

[Spacejaws]

I'm gonna say a healthy mix of the two? As apposed to yesteryear that would be heavily swayed to nerdier types.

That said I don't think the mysoginistic opinions are exclusive to one group although I'd like to guestimate it's casually from the more causal/jock crowd but the more extreme offenders are the nerdier, more involved types.

That said I read that article and lol Bioware do look like they are shit at replicating the model for the main female character (as in 1 to 1 replication rather than her necessarily being 'ugly') whereas the dude looks like an adonis.

 

[Parmenide]

Define "nerd", nowdays is a term with a fleeting meaning.

 

[Dehnus]

So, you're saying that the negative fan reactions to WRPGs attempting to be more inclusive are indicative that the genre is played by more typically outgoing and masculine men, as opposed to socially reclusive and physically weaker ones?

It has become that.. yes. I mean I wouldn't say weaker. As nobody who is bullied is weaker (In fact often the bullied is stronger than the bully, so the bully requires the peer pressure group to keep the bullied one down). But I do not believe the sentiment is correct that we are talking about the "losers" in school here. These were the winners, and now in the real world, they have to deal with losing for the first time.

I also believe that Bioware catered to much to them.

 

[Alucrid]

I don't understand. Help?

some gamergate article is indicative that bioware RPGs have become so casual they have invited an influx of "jocks" who complain about the looks of the female characters in the game and that nerds can't possible be sexist like jocks can be.

It has become that.. yes. I mean I wouldn't say weaker. As nobody who is bullied is weaker (In fact often the bullied is stronger than the bully, so the bully requires the peer pressure group to keep the bullied one down). But I do not believe the sentiment is correct that we are talking about the "losers" in school here. These were the winners, and now in the real world, they have to deal with losing for the first time.

I also believe that Bioware catered to much to them.

if this push back against bioware by these "winners" is because of their attempt to be more inclusive, how are they being catered to? the watered down RPG mechanics?

 

[Capitan]

theres no point in being mad at someone for what they did in high school imo. people can be jerks whether they play video games or football.

 

[Dehnus]

The venn diagram of jocks, nerds, winners, and losers doesn't seem particularly germane to either of the questions you seem to be asking. Which, to me, seem to be "why are many gamers upset at ugly/non-stereotypically-femme characters in games" and (separately) "why are old style WRPGs no longer popular/made?"

Your anecdotally inclusive gaming group does not mean that larger communities are similarly inclusive. Certainly, there are lots of diverse gaming groups. But culture is a different issue altogether. Gaming culture has a weird, heavy overlap between commercial and social forces, and those have both, for a very long time, tended to marginalize certain people in favor of showing off how handsome and macho they can make people feel. That doesn't seem to be about jocks or nerds, just about humans, power fantasies, and risk aversion in popular media. It's not how 100% of the games industry or culture or games is, but it's a lot, and it makes an impact. Some people don't like the way it is now, and they're trying to make the types of experiences and people and situations depicted in games be more diverse on a lot of fronts. Some people think that sounds awesome, and other people feel like it's putting them down and giving them less of what they want. It's not a high school cafeteria.

But if you give me $5, I'll punch that person who said they were going to give you a swirly.

It's all titles of course, I just feel a bit like we are going with them in their rethoric and due to that make it harder for young people that are the "losers" in school to enjoy themselves and be themselves. While we allow these people to get off scotfree. I mean look at how they are used to get their way, and how angry they get because the pixels on the screen aren't for them only right from the start.

Even if it used a randomizer with the character creation options, they'd still make a fuss about it. They simply aren't used to losing yet.

 

[Dehnus]

some gamergate article is indicative that bioware RPGs have become so casual they have invited an influx of "jocks" who complain about the looks of the female characters in the game and that nerds can't possible be sexist like jocks can be.

I never said that a nerdy person can't be sexist, that is your interpretation and trying to pin something on me . How naughty. Just am saying that this doesn't seem like the usual D&D/Roleplaying crowds you'll meet same with old WRPG fans. Just go to those Board Gamestores, man... Women are often more represented then men. I just don't know why we are letting these jerks get away with this kind of behaviour and then take the moniker, and thus shift the blame to the very people they assault. And it works! Look at all the articles calling people nerds and geeks for the behaviour of these assholes.


So yes, not saying that Nerdy Men can't be Sexist pigs.. heck they are. But let us not act like it is the Nerdiness that is the problem, it is the MEN part that is the problem.

if this push back against bioware by these "winners" is because of their attempt to be more inclusive, how are they being catered to? the watered down RPG mechanics?

Like said "winners"they are far from that in the big world, just in school they used to be. The moment they got out and had to take that job and suddenly not be on the top? Yeah, I do believe that is why these jerks lash out. They simply aren't used to losing.

Of course there are exceptions.

 

[Snagret]

I think it's more important to recognize that male "geeks" and "nerds" can harbor toxic resentment towards groups of people they don't understand, rather than evangelize people who were bullied in high school and casting out anyone who spreads sexist, homophobic, or racist rethoric as belonging to some "other" group, thus absolving self-identified geeks of any responsibility to hold these people (and themselves) accountable for their actions.

There's a serious problem of inclusivity in general right now, and the gaming community needs to own up to the ways in which it contributes to these issues.

Aside from which, you can't know who is sitting behind a screen name and you're making a lot of illogical leaps about who these people "must be". Your notions of "geek" and "jock" are archaic and irrelevant.

 

[redcrayon]

some gamergate article is indicative that bioware RPGs have become so casual they have invited an influx of "jocks" who complain about the looks of the female characters in the game and that nerds can't possible be sexist like jocks can be.

I agree, what a ridiculous argument. There's nothing that inherently makes sporty kids more sexist than nerdy ones, the whole 'friendzoned' attitude of some less confident guys is just as crap an attitude as a footy player demanding a girl talk to him. At least the latter is openly a sexist arsehole about who a girl should and shouldn't show attention to, rather than thinking long term friendship=automatic eventual promotion to boyfriend.

 

[Deepwater]

This idea that outdated stereotypical labels like nerd or jock is predicated on their predisposition to misogyny? lol

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm interpreting this as:

-Nerds are actually okay with women, because lots of women are nerds
-Nerds aren't into the contemporary wRPG because of a focus on action
-Nerds don't care about the objectification of women, but Jocks do
-Ergo, These people are actually jocks.

And if I'm correct in that interpretation, that's pretty dumb

 

[Memory]

I don't get the nerd/jock thing but if you are asking if wrpgs are being watered down then the answer is yes.

 

[Alucrid]

Like said "winners"they are far from that in the big world, just in school they used to be. The moment they got out and had to take that job and suddenly not be on the top? Yeah, I do believe that is why these jerks lash out. They simply aren't used to losing.

Of course there are exceptions.

i fail to see why you cast aspersions on "jocks" in an attempt to free "nerds" from any culpability in maintaining extremely shitty view points. unless you think that gamergate was a movement by these "jocks"

What a ridiculous argument though. There's nothing that inherently makes sporty kids more sexist than nerdy ones, the whole 'friendzoned' attitude of some less confident guys is just as crap an attitude as a footy player demanding a girl talk to him. At least the latter is openly a sexist arsehole about who a girl should and shouldn't show attention to, rather than thinking long term friendship=automatic eventual promotion to boyfriend.

i don't think his point is valid, i just distilled it down as best i could

 

[Daouzin]

some gamergate article is indicative that bioware RPGs have become so casual they have invited an influx of "jocks" who complain about the looks of the female characters in the game and that nerds can't possible be sexist like jocks can be.

Do they complain because they are too attractive or not attractive?

Like said "winners"they are far from that in the big world, just in school they used to be. The moment they got out and had to take that job and suddenly not be on the top? Yeah, I do believe that is why these jerks lash out. They simply aren't used to losing.

Of course there are exceptions.

What's your native language. I'm guessing it's not English. The bolded sentence is impossible for me to decipher. Who said "winners?" What are you trying to say?

 

[redcrayon]

i don't think his point is valid, i just distilled it down as best i could

Sure, I got that, sorry my post wasn't clearer, I'll edit slightly

 

[jonscrambler]

You have issues OP, and the nerds here don't agree with you

 

[Snagret]

I never said that a nerdy person can't be sexist, that is your interpretation and trying to pin something on me . How naughty. Just am saying that this doesn't seem like the usual D&D/Roleplaying crowds you'll meet same with old WRPG fans. Just go to those Board Gamestores, man... Women are often more represented then men. I just don't know why we are letting these jerks get away with this kind of behaviour and then take the moniker, and thus shift the blame to the very people they assault. And it works! Look at all the articles calling people nerds and geeks for the behaviour of these assholes.




Like said "winners"they are far from that in the big world, just in school they used to be. The moment they got out and had to take that job and suddenly not be on the top? Yeah, I do believe that is why these jerks lash out. They simply aren't used to losing.

Of course there are exceptions.

Bullies actually don't just turn into losers after leaving HS, despite what 80s high school films taught you.

 

[Daouzin]

This idea that outdated stereotypical labels like nerd or jock is predicated on their predisposition to misogyny? lol

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm interpreting this as:

-Nerds are actually okay with women, because lots of women are nerds
-Nerds aren't into the contemporary wRPG because of a focus on action
-Nerds don't care about the objectification of women, but Jocks do
-Ergo, These people are actually jocks.

And if I'm correct in that interpretation, that's pretty dumb

Is this the take away?

I feel so close to understanding what's happening in this thread that I just want to know before I move on.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

The OP is a bit odd, but that article you linked is probably the worst gaming related article I've ever read. Some awful stuff in there

 

[redcrayon]

Bullies actually don't just turn into losers after leaving HS, despite what 80s high school films taught you.

This was one of my great lessons in life growing up. The kid that tormented me wasn't much better than me at sports, and not particularly physically stronger either. He was actually great at science and maths. He was a terror (to me) because he was very smart, very popular and very quick-witted, unfortunately with a vindictive streak that meant I was the target of every joke going (I had a stammer and a lisp at the time).

I have no doubt he's done very well for himself over the last few decades, whereas every teen drama/comedy at the time seemed determined to tell me that it'll be alright, he'll be washing my car one day and we'll laugh about it. On my salary, I doubt that.

Accepting that life isn't fair, and that sometimes the odds are so stacked against you that all you can do is walk away, allow a little time for fuming about it, before cutting your losses and expending your energy on the relationships, battles and projects that matter to you, is advice I'll pass on to my daughter. I didn't really enjoy school until I got to an art college at the age of 16 where I flourished.

 

[Dehnus]

theres no point in being mad at someone for what they did in high school imo. people can be jerks whether they play video games or football.

Oh I'm not mad, I'm worried about the bullyfication of our world (It's not a word I know.).

Feels more like the entirety of Western Society is turning into "High School" only bigger. With the Peer Pressure group being meaner and stronger than ever. But that is a bit off topic.

I just worry a it about us as a group allowing them to get away with this kind of behaviour. I mean they threaten artists and game makers, and get those poor people's lives ruined! And we attack each other and the wrong people.