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Are you in or out of a iterative consoles?
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
-Minsc-
Member
I'll take two views of this. One as a child/teen and the other as the 34 year old me today.
The gaming world today is quite different today than when I was a child. Young me had no concept of being in contact with a sea of people over the internet. The internet has had a great influence on what becomes popular. Being a child I'd be more prone to follow what is popular. This would either be via my parents buying what is popular or as a teen buying what's popular to fit in.
Today I slowly find myself moving away from gaming but at this time I'm still unsure if I want to remove it completely. I really like the simplicity of consoles but as I age I get more conservative. Going through seven generations of consoles takes its toll. As time accelerates a consoles lifespan begins to pass in the blink of an eye. As my attention is drawn elsewhere a consoles lifespan passes even faster. I did recently build my own PC. This is something I wanted to do since my early twenties so I decided to finally get it out of my system. I'm not a fan of putting my life into mobile devices so the PC does a good job of being able to access the internet and play the limited selection of games I want at a stationary place.
Now, for the short answer to the question, I'd say no. I do believe iterative consoles are a good idea and worth pursuing but just not something I see myself purchasing at this stage of my life.
Edit:
To add, for iterative consoles to have any appeal to me the games would have to be compatible between different iterations in a gameplay sense. I'd be fine with a game having multiple graphics settings, the framerate and gameplay is what I'd see to be more important.
The gaming world today is quite different today than when I was a child. Young me had no concept of being in contact with a sea of people over the internet. The internet has had a great influence on what becomes popular. Being a child I'd be more prone to follow what is popular. This would either be via my parents buying what is popular or as a teen buying what's popular to fit in.
Today I slowly find myself moving away from gaming but at this time I'm still unsure if I want to remove it completely. I really like the simplicity of consoles but as I age I get more conservative. Going through seven generations of consoles takes its toll. As time accelerates a consoles lifespan begins to pass in the blink of an eye. As my attention is drawn elsewhere a consoles lifespan passes even faster. I did recently build my own PC. This is something I wanted to do since my early twenties so I decided to finally get it out of my system. I'm not a fan of putting my life into mobile devices so the PC does a good job of being able to access the internet and play the limited selection of games I want at a stationary place.
Now, for the short answer to the question, I'd say no. I do believe iterative consoles are a good idea and worth pursuing but just not something I see myself purchasing at this stage of my life.
Edit:
To add, for iterative consoles to have any appeal to me the games would have to be compatible between different iterations in a gameplay sense. I'd be fine with a game having multiple graphics settings, the framerate and gameplay is what I'd see to be more important.
Fbh
Gold Member
I'm out.
The fixed hardware is one of the appeals of consoles for me. Take that away and I'd rather just go the PC way.
If I have to upgrade my hardware every other year to get the best experience on my platform of choice I'd rather be on the one that gives me more freedon of when and what I upgrade and more personalized options in games to decide how I want to take advantage of my extra hardware
The fixed hardware is one of the appeals of consoles for me. Take that away and I'd rather just go the PC way.
If I have to upgrade my hardware every other year to get the best experience on my platform of choice I'd rather be on the one that gives me more freedon of when and what I upgrade and more personalized options in games to decide how I want to take advantage of my extra hardware
GamerMax73
Member
Thats not how it works. Developers write engines specifically for a target platform.
If there is a PS4 with 8GB Ram and a PS4.5 with 16GB Ram then you would get 2 different engines, as the PS4.5 would simply allow for alot more details.
This means you wouldnt just develop 1 game but 2 different ones. Why do you think all the Asassins Creed games for PS3/360 PS4/XO are made by different teams?
Even if those machines were backward compatible to each other, you would still have to do 2 different games due to different engines and platform requirements!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I would have thought that games are primarily written to a game engine (Unreal, Anvil (Assassins Creed), Frostbite, RAGE, Unity) and that engine is ported to the given platform. The PS4 and PS4.5 will be the same platform, so no extra work there.
More a case of settings in the engine to define which render level (1080p, 1440p, etc), anti-aliasing, asets, etc to use. Much the same as running a game on a PC with i3, GTX570Ti and 4gb Ram vs the same game on a PC with i7,R9-390 and 16gb Ram.
For art work I'd imagine they are all probably done once right now at 4K and downscaled for the target platform, again no need to repeat work. (The version included on the game disc is the pre-downscaled artwork for that platform not the 4K originals).
Anything else would be poor management of manpower, surely?
ScHlAuChi
Member
Yes that is correct - there is no different engines becasue the engines were created for this generation - and that includes Xbox One, PS4 and PC, as they all have very similar specs!
But there is a huge difference between those and engines made for PS3/360/WiiU!
And apparently to many others in this thread and in the PS4.5 rumor thread. It isn't about running games 'the right way'.
KeyChainDude
Member
If I wanted that I'd simply become a PC player.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
First party developers don't. And honestly, for the rest, things doesn't get optimised for a lot of platforms. Usually there's a general optimisation, some fine tuning for the consoles (ps4, xB1) but for pc if it runs bad, you just need better hardware. Look at how games made for both this gen and the last works. They are missing things and barely running. The jump won't be as big and the architecture won't change, but the resource allocation will for the different platforms will be the same. There's also still going to be platform specific issues and work arounds that especially first party developers won't have time to persue.
I also have a problem with the incremental upgrade. If they did this every 5-6 years and called it ps 5 etc that would be fine. But this regular incremental upgrade... I don't like.
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
I'm out. The only way I'd be in is if I can already attach the upgrade to my PS4 and it costs under $100, which isn't gonna happen.
Price. It's quite simply the price.
Handhelds get away with more than consoles do. PS4.5 having a couple exclusives will piss people off way more than the outrage N3DS got for having a couple exclusive titles. The context is not the same because handhelds do not come from an established history of generations with the expectations that builds.
Also, whenever Nintendo does do this, retailers(mainly GameStop in the US) have done trade in promos, making the price go down even more.
Filthy Casual
Member
Probably out depending on price.
Might consider getting into the PC scene if things go this way.
Might consider getting into the PC scene if things go this way.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I also think there's more of an expectation of permanence when you have a big box under your TV. A portable you can kinda justify having more than one of -- you can pretty easily find another use for it. Maybe you have a 3ds for when you travel and one for home. Or one you just leave at the office for when you get bored. A console? You're basically making it a paperweight now.
That's ok, so then what is the issue? If you carry libraries and can upgrade when you feel and aren't tied to upgrading. The fact that you will still see the same games available on whichever system your on. It just seems like more options on the market for people to decide which they would like to pick.
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
I think that's the first time I've heard of someone selling their console over rumors.
ScHlAuChi
Member
It is not that simple unfortunately, they do use the same engine, but there is many other factors that have a huge impact - see my earlier post #691 about this
You can think of it abit like this, compare a F1 car and a BMW. If you upgrade your BMW with a more powerful motor it can go pretty fast, but it will still never be able to compete with a F1 car that was built from the ground up with speed in mind
EventHorizon
Member
The XB1 and PS4 don't have the same specs, and PCs have an even wider variety of configurations. Like I said you and others are mistakenly talking about a generational change in hardware that included a significant, if not total, change in architecture. A PS4.5 would be a PS4 but with more memory, faster processor and the like. It would be fully compatible with a PS4.
To show how groundless an argument you have, a developer wouldn't even have to make use of the extra resources if they didn't want to. They could just release their PS4 code on the PS4.5 with no extra work at all. Of course if you have those extra resources then why not use better antialiasing, or push a 30FPS game to 60FPS, or provide better illumination, or have better cloth physics, and so on. Those are not engine level changes unless you've done something like hard coded you physics to the FPS.
That's a very simplistic and narrow way of viewing it. Development time changes, psychology and attitudes towards consoles will change. The perceived value changes. The whole brand image changes. PC becomes more attractive because you have much more control there as a consumer over the games you buy and how you experience them, and the differentiating factors between PC/console have all but disappeared at that point. It just becomes the logical best option.
Oh no, it is not only that. Anyway, I bought it mainly for Uncharted 4 (although I am loving Bloodborne) and future exclusives, but I am tired of reading so many news or rumours that I dislike. Perhaps It is just that gaming has changed so much and I do not think that I like what I foresee or can keep up with everything.
I read you guys in favor of this, or a digital-only console, etc while I disagree with so many of those things, that I am not actually sure if gaming is still for me or I should just stick to PC and older consoles.
GamerMax73
Member
It is not that simple unfortunately, they do use the same engine, but there is many other factors that have a huge impact - see my earlier post #691 about this
You can think of it abit like this, compare a F1 car and a BMW. If you upgrade your BMW with a more powerful motor it can go pretty fast, but it will still never be able to compete with a F1 car that was built from the ground up with speed in mind
So you're talking about first party games writing their engines from the ground up rather than 3rd party multi-plats using off the shelf engines (albeit the engines themselves may get optimised some what for each ported platform).
Surely in that scenario it's still one platform (PS4 API) that you're targeting but are building in support for two different performance levels while you're building that engine. Can be has difficult as writing an engine to support the 100's of combinations in the PC world, we're just talking two setting here PS4 and Super PS4.
EventHorizon
Member
Actually Microsoft now is targeting both PC and XB1 with many of their new games. PlayStation doesn't because why would they.
Bad PC ports are a whole different issue that probably has more to do with the fact that PC ports don't sell nearly as much as the console versions and so have fewer resources devoted to them. Also the PC architecture and consoles do have significant differences like PCs not having unified memory. Going from a PS4 game to a PS4.5 game with upgrades would be straightforward and nothing like going from PS4 to PC.
If people don't like a 3 year upgrade cycle then just skip every other one. Problem solved.
Not really. You are now speaking for others. No one will know anything unless the product is on the market.
You are also assuming there will be a negative perception of something that is not even available or has yet to be unveiled.
I don't understand where you're going with this.
ScHlAuChi
Member
The differences are very small, small enough so you dont have to do big changes to your games or engines! Those engines are all made so they work optimal on console first, there is no optimization needed for PC due to higher specs.
Who would buy that if the only advantage is higher resolution and better framerate?
A large chunk of the mass market isnt even able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. How many are willing to buy a new PS4.5 if there isnt any titles that use that extra power?
Then what is the point of those extra resources if they arent really used?
If a developer decides to use that extra power for a PS4.5 exclusive game, then this means alot of effort with little gain! How many people bought a Nintendo 3DS XL just so they could play Xenoblade Chronicles?
So you are saying people should buy a PS4.5 becasue of higher resolution, better framerate, illumination and cloth physics? Which people outside the absolute hardcore care about those things?
I'm not one to say never about something that's not even out, but I'm pretty unlikely to be in on this.
I'm already in on PC, and have veered away from consoles even this gen because they've veered a little to close to that territory (Wii U excepted). Taking another step in that direction will put me into the even-more-unlikely camp, I imagine.
I'm already in on PC, and have veered away from consoles even this gen because they've veered a little to close to that territory (Wii U excepted). Taking another step in that direction will put me into the even-more-unlikely camp, I imagine.
What's the point of minor upgrades for consoles. I buy consoles expecting a good 5-6 years of support. If consoles start going iterative than I'll just fully invest into a PC build. The small upgrades really only works for the smart phone industry and even then I personally POSSIBLY buy a phone every two years.
So it will be a no-go for myself.
So it will be a no-go for myself.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
In.
ScHlAuChi
Member
Even if you pick an off the shelf engine - the platform you target affects your game. The number of drawcalls a platform can do is limited!
If you design an openworld game you design your world in a way so the number of drawcalls dont get too high.
To give you a concrete example, Sleeping Dogs has the night market. The night market is all very detailed with tons of NPCs and so on.
When you play the game you will notice that the night market is not visible from the outside world, it is completely encased inside a wall of skyscrapers around it.
The reason why they designed it that way is to limit the number of drawcalls. If they would have created this game for PS4 instead, this "encasing" wouldnt have been needed!
So the power of the target platform had an impact on how the game was designed!
ginger ninja
Banned
Definitely out. Put a poll up OP.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Is this healthy for the console makers? Is the ROI going to make up for the added costs of constantly working on new hardware?
These aren't smartphones. The masses aren't going to be lining up to upgrade to the latest models.
I can't help but imagine a glut of various unsold skus sitting on shelves, while new models keep churning out. Core gamers can say this is great, but if the casual gamers aren't biting, it's not going to be a success.
Maybe because Nintendo is focusing on the child demo outside of their super hardcore fans.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I can tell you it does create a fear of when to jump in because its already happened to me with Nintendo handhelds. I will never again buy a Nintendo product in its first year and even second because of the "upgrade path" they've followed. That may not be just the hardcore either. The mass market seemed plenty hesitant to jump in on the 3DS from the start. Wasn't the only factor but I bet it was one.
If a PS4.5 releases this year, I feel like I made a mistake buying the PS4 when I did because I can't just upgrade for free. Instead the new on the fence consumer is the one that gets the best deal while a loyal early adopter gets the shaft. Basically you then cement the fact that early adoption should only be for the rich that are prepared to also buy Iteration 1 and even an Iteration 2 of a console.
Oh and you further drill down on anyone that wanted to be a multi console owner. Rather than having a PS4 and a WiiU, that person now puts that money aside for PS4.5 instead of that other console and library of games. Its bad news all round for cash spread in the industry.
timmyp53
Member
What's left?
I never said I'm speaking for anyone other than myself. If you can't understand why people would be skeptical or upset at this news after reading this many pages of the thread then no amount of explanation will get through to you. It feels like you're really just looking for an angle to try and convert people.
King Gilga
Member
Out.
My phone is something I do everything with that's on me 24/7.
You can't compare that to a measly video game console.
Its also incomparable to a PC where you are replacing parts not the whole damn thing.
My phone is something I do everything with that's on me 24/7.
You can't compare that to a measly video game console.
Its also incomparable to a PC where you are replacing parts not the whole damn thing.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe.
I already keep my PC upgraded to be able to play the latest games at high end settings, so any multiplatform games get played there.
Other than Bloodborne and the Ryu ga Gotoku games, I really haven't had much reason to turn on my PS4 since it launched. Not really regretting my purchase, but unless they start banging out some pretty awesome exclusives, I may be just sticking with Nintendo when it comes to dedicated consoles in the future.
Being a relatively static platform for X number of years is part of the appeal of consoles. Buy it and you're good for a generation. An iterative approach does not sound good to me, but I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.
I already keep my PC upgraded to be able to play the latest games at high end settings, so any multiplatform games get played there.
Other than Bloodborne and the Ryu ga Gotoku games, I really haven't had much reason to turn on my PS4 since it launched. Not really regretting my purchase, but unless they start banging out some pretty awesome exclusives, I may be just sticking with Nintendo when it comes to dedicated consoles in the future.
Being a relatively static platform for X number of years is part of the appeal of consoles. Buy it and you're good for a generation. An iterative approach does not sound good to me, but I'm interested in seeing how it plays out.
Fuck that shit. I don't see any benefits at all for devs or consumers. A 5-6 year cycle is perfect.
Continually putting shit out there every three-four years is stupid and it's a plain cash grab. If they want to make this a hobby for the 1%, then good job killing console gaming as anything but a niche thing.
Continually putting shit out there every three-four years is stupid and it's a plain cash grab. If they want to make this a hobby for the 1%, then good job killing console gaming as anything but a niche thing.
socksfelloff
Member
As long as its within reason and doesn't fragment the community, I'm in.
PSP and 3ds have done this well.
I've always been a PC gamer and its worked well over there too. I can play games with friends who have budget or old pc's who don't want to upgrade every year.
PSP and 3ds have done this well.
I've always been a PC gamer and its worked well over there too. I can play games with friends who have budget or old pc's who don't want to upgrade every year.
If they keep to, say, two variations a generation i.e. a PS4 and a PS4.5 then I could see it working. Hell I'd be down for that personally. One potential problem I see though is slow adoption rates. Why pay $400 for a weaker towards the beginning of the generation when you can pay $400 two years later for better hardware? That hasn't seemed to hurt Nintendo though with the DS or 3DS.
EventHorizon
Member
Exactly right, and going from a PS4 to PS4.5 would be no different.
The exact same people who would pay for a PS4.5 over a PS4. Have you not seen the constant harping on NeoGaf from people complaining when console games are not 1080p and 60FPS. That would be the market for the upgraded console.
The fact that there is also a market that wouldn't care about any of that is the reason why this complaining about more frequent releases is ridiculous. Just like there are people who buy the XB1 and don't care that it has reduced graphics vs. the PS4, there will be people who will be perfectly satisfied with the PS4 when the PS4.5 comes out. Like I've been saying, those people simply shouldn't buy the incremental update.
The point is that offering up a PS4.5 doesn't mandate any additional costs on a developer. If they don't want to use the extra resources then they don't have to. A developer using the extra resources of PS4.5 does not mean they put in a lot of extra work. For example bumping up the framerate if the hardware can handle it requires basically no work. A dev could use the PS4.5 to offer up early access for games that haven't been optimized yet and would run very poorly on a PS4. A dev could use a better but more demanding antialiasing for the PS4.5 version, or they could do super sampling. And so on. And so on. None of that is a huge change in a game.
Yes, and for other reasons I've just mentioned. Let's also not forget VR which is highly dependent on frame rate and will likely see many advances in the coming years.
Once again, if you don't want any of those things then great. Skip every other release and nothing changes for you. I have yet to hear one reason why that wouldn't be an acceptable strategy.
If consoles go down this road they have to be VERY careful how they deal with incremental upgrades. There can't be any exclusive games, content, and each system needs max performance at their given levels of visuals.
I can definitely see this as necessary given the advent of VR. If consoles can't keep up with and improve this new trend then it will die a quick death and turn PC exclusive.
I can definitely see this as necessary given the advent of VR. If consoles can't keep up with and improve this new trend then it will die a quick death and turn PC exclusive.
Uhhh, that's not a good reason.
"Hey guys, make sure you don't throw up during our VR games, buy the latest PS4 system!"