ASOIAF (Book Readers) - Talk Me Down GAF - Racist Overtones w/Sothoryos?

[JCreasy]

I'm not that guy.

I'm not that guy that projects his own ideological baggage onto works of art. I don't revel in calling things racist. I certainly don't write threads about it - except for now, I guess. But something struck me when I re-read a reference to Martin's Sothoryos from ASOIAF

- Sothyros is Martin's analogue for Africa. Martin himself has admitted as much.
- One of Euron Greyjoy's slaves came from Sothoryos, and is described as being hairy, and ape-like.
- Victarion compares some people as "squat and hairy as the apes of Sothoros"

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Sothoryos#cite_note-0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire

Ok, am I trippin'?

I'm trying to square my feelings about this. I mean, is this as racist as it feels? Is it intentional? I mean, for those of you who have read Feast, did this strike you at all when you first read it?

I guess what I'm look for is a cogent explanation for why this isn't racist. I don't think Martin is racist. I love these books. I just need some clarity.

Thoughts, please?

Edit: I just wanted to point something else out as well. Because this is a fantasy universe, I mistakingly thought Martin had created an ape like human race for his version of Africa - separate from the dark skinned Summer Islanders. He talks about the brindle-skinned people from Sothoryos as being a fantastical creation of his. So actually I thought he did the same with the person that Victarion saw on Euron's boat. And that's what led to me being confused as to how I should interpret it . . .

 

[Bigfoot]

Just because a character in his story might be racist doesn't mean Martin is a racist. It would be silly to expect that racism is off limits in a fantasy world.

 

[Coriolanus]

That seems on par with how I imagine european aristocracy from the middle ages would describe africans. Heck, you wouldn't even have to go that far back.

 

[Monocle]

Racists characters don't equal a racist author.

BTW, don't forget that every chapter is written from a character's point of view. Important point. GRRM isn't using an omniscient narrator to tell us he thinks less of colored people.

 

[Yaboosh]

Did Euron describe him as apelike or was he just described as ape like?

 

[JCreasy]

Right^

I hear that.

So is Victarion simply our unreliable narrator in this case?

Maybe I've confused Victarion's interpretation for Martin's interpretation.

 

[Coriolanus]

So is Victarion simply our unreliable narrator in this case?

You might have noticed that Victarion is a bit touched in the head, on top of being a *very* petty and generally horrible human being.

It just so happens that the Crow's Eye might be even worse.

 

[PantherLotus]

OP -- That caught my attention when I was reading it too. However:

Just because a character in his story might be racist doesn't mean Martin is a racist. It would be silly to expect that racism is off limits in a fantasy world.

That's a pretty good explanation.

 

[genjiZERO]

Yeah, I interpreted that as simply racist characters not a racist author/book.

 

[JCreasy]

^Ok understood.

Feeling better

 

[Valhelm]

ASOIAF really isn't racist at all. It exists in a world where our notions of race do not exist. Sure, people in Sothoryos and the Summer Isles have dark skin, and look like real life Africans, but our ideas about race don't apply. People of Westeros are more likely to lump groups together by religion and social class than by skin color.

Westeros is typically portrayed as more brutal, backwards, and conservative than most parts of the world. In the Summer Isles, there's far less fighting and a much greater degree of sexual freedom and gender egalitarianism, clashing directly with the very patriarchal society of Westeros. Characters that don't look Northern European tend to be more enlightened or educated. The Dornish are the only Westerosi culture to allow women to inherit by the same rights as men. The Italian/Greek-ish people of the Free Cities seem to be a few centuries ahead of Westeros technologically, and have a democratic society with less reliance on hereditary succession.

The only characters who have anything bad to say about people from the Summer Islands and Sothoryos are assholes. And if I'm not mistaken, Victarion's comment about somebody being ape-like was in reference to the very, very, very white people of Ibben, a vaguely Russian-inspired island chain straight East of the North.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm not that guy.

I'm not that guy that projects his own ideological baggage onto works of art. I don't revel in calling things racist. I certainly don't write threads about it - except for now, I guess. But something struck me when I re-read a reference to Martin's Sothoryos from ASOIAF

- Sothyros is Martin's analogue for Africa. Martin himself has admitted as much.
- One of Euron Greyjoy's slaves came from Sothoryos, and is described as being hairy, and ape-like.
- Victarion compares some people as "squat and hairy as the apes of Sothoros"

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Sothoryos#cite_note-0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire

Ok, am I trippin'?

I'm trying to square my feelings about this. I mean, is this as racist as it feels? Is it intentional? I mean, for those of you who have read Feast, did this strike you at all when you first read it?

I guess what I'm look for is a cogent explanation for why this isn't racist. I don't think Martin is racist. I love these books. I just need some clarity.

Thoughts, please?

How does a character expressing negative views=the author's views? Especially Victarion of all people.

He's expressing views you would likely hear from a Medieval era person from a royal or "great" house. Especially someone of such poor...character, to put it lightly lol.

 

[f0lken]

GRRM is also not a rapist despite writing and describing several rapes in his books

 

[KibblesBits]

There are others who don't show racist overtones when talking about folk from the Summer Isles/Sothoryos.

Keep in mind 90% of the Greyjoy line are awful, terrible people.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Ah yes. Victarion Greyjoy is who I want to go to for insightful social commentary.

I wonder what he thinks of Ja Rule.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Also it's a fantasy series. It is entirely possible to have a group of people who are indeed "hairy" and "ape-like" without any actual racist undertones.

there are dragons and people who can warg into animals. i'm not treating it as an analogue to earth

 

[Eidan]

I always thought the Summer Isles were home to most of ASOIAF's blacks. Sothyros is home to mostly primitive tribes, right?

 

[Stumpokapow]

I haven't read any of the books, but Martin's consistent response to criticism of content was that he's intending to depict a cruel and savage world, much like our own world's not too distant past cruelty and savagery.

Now, there's something to be said that by definition, depiction is itself a political act and that there is an authorial imperative to inject emancipatory politics into the writing (IE by portraying characters who are stereotyped as acting against type, by portraying hated characters as sympathetic or better than the characters who hate them, or by having the good guys win once in a while). I can't speak to the degree to which Martin does or doesn't do this.

 

[Valhelm]

I always thought the Summer Isles were home to most of ASOIAF's blacks. Sothyros is home to mostly primitive tribes, right?

Yeah. People from Sothoryos are portrayed in the television show as light skinned Black people, but we aren't really sure what they look like in the books.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's also worth mentioning we actually see black characters in the show, for instance from the Summer Isles - and they're just regular people who happen to be black, and treated regularly. Jalabhar Xho is treated respectfully while in King's Landing for instance.

Moqorro is also a high ranking black person in the series.

 

[ZeroRay]

Yeah, black people have been described in multiple ways by multiple POV's in the series with Victarion's easily being the most (and only?) racist.

I have more of a problem with George's orientalist portrayal of Essos and anywhere not Westeros basically.

 

[hateradio]

GRRM is also not a rapist despite writing and describing several rapes in his books

Recalling, insinuating, threatening, alluding, etc., to rape, yet not a rapist. It's of of the aspects of the books I don't like, actually. It's just too damn rapey at times.

 

[Coriolanus]

I have more of a problem with George's orientalist portrayal of Essos and anywhere not Westeros basically.

Why?

 

[Ratrat]

Victarion is the guy who threw a bunch of male whores into the sea because they were 'unnatural'.
Its funny youd thinl his viees are the author's.

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

Maybe The Lord of the Rings is more your speed, OP.

 

[TCRS]

Hmm.. it's weird how little racism there actually is given that it's a middle ages kind of a world.

 

[ZeroRay]

Why?

I don't want to get specific but basically it seems a lot of the tropes GRRM purportedly discards comes back with a vengeance in Essos. All the places there feel more "exotic" for it's own sake. The multitude of cultures present there never really get much development and as such, are relegated to old fantasy stereotypes.

Yeah, you could say cultures like the Dothraki or Ghiscari existed in real life, but their ASOIAF parallels are more caricatures than their nuanced Westerosi counterparts.

 

[CornBurrito]

Right^

I hear that.

So is Victarion simply our unreliable narrator in this case?

Maybe I've confused Victarion's interpretation for Martin's interpretation.

Victarion is an awful person with a lot of screwed up thinking in his POV chapters.

 

[JCreasy]

Well honestly, because this is a fantasy universe, I wondered if Martin had created an ape like human race for his version of Africa. He talks of brindle-skinned people from Sothoryos as being a fantastical creation of his. So actually I thought he did the same with the person that Victarion saw. And that's what led to me being confused as to how I should interpret it . . .

 

[Madness]

The character described them from the Summer Isles like that, not Martin if that makes sense. I think you are reading way too much into it. Victarian is not a good man.

Aside from that, if I remember correctly, a lot of times, girls from the Summer Isles are described as beautiful and seductive ie. Alayaya if I remember correctly.

Also, you have to note, this is a time period where women are essentially treated as property, and low birth or bastards are thought of as scum. You have to think many of these people view others with contempt. Just look at how other Westerosi even look at people like the crannogmen.

 

[Coriolanus]

I don't want to get specific but basically it seems a lot of the tropes GRRM purportedly discards comes back with a vengeance in Essos. All the places there feel more "exotic" for it's own sake. The multitude of cultures present there never really get much development and as such, are relegated to old fantasy stereotypes.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "we've never met anyone from Essos, so all that we hear is folklore spouted by characters that don't know the place.", and thn considering what medieval europeans would think of China, hearing only of Marco Polo's exploits.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I don't want to get specific but basically it seems a lot of the tropes GRRM purportedly discards comes back with a vengeance in Essos. All the places there feel more "exotic" for it's own sake. The multitude of cultures present there never really get much development and as such, are relegated to old fantasy stereotypes.

Yeah, you could say cultures like the Dothraki or Ghiscari existed in real life, but their ASOIAF parallels are more caricatures than their nuanced Westerosi counterparts.

To be fair, we don't have an Essos POV to definitively state that. I thought ADWD did a good job of giving more details, specifically about Volantis. If the book was 100% Essos POV based we'd probably view the Westeros glimpses as European fantasy tropes.

With respect to LOTR, Tolkien's colonialist attitude shines right through the novels, whereas I don't think there's anything like that in ASOIAF.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Right^

I hear that.

So is Victarion simply our unreliable narrator in this case?

Maybe I've confused Victarion's interpretation for Martin's interpretation.

Yep, definitely. One of the hallmarks of the series is how drastically the thought processes and verbiage changes depending on whose point of view each chapter is written from.

Constantly, something will be described (a person, or a city, or a historical event) in say, a positive light in one character's chapter, then later described again in a completely different, cynically negative way by someone else. Robb's wife is described as a beautiful woman in one of Cat's chapters, and later as nothing special in one of Jamie's.

Keeping that in mind, consider that Victarion is practically a joke character... an extreme caricature of the typical macho, badass-viking-warrior fantasy trope.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I guess GRRM is all for rat pies and shit

 

[KibblesBits]

It would be nice if GRRM explored the Summer Isles a bit more though...

 

[Brakke]

Aside from that, if I remember correctly, a lot of times, girls from the Summer Isles are described as beautiful and seductive ie. Alayaya if I remember correctly.

I mean, this isn't necessarily a good thing, right? Colonial fetishizing of the exotic is not exactly progressive.

 

[Burli]

By this logic GRRM shares the opinions of every single one of his characters.

 

[ZeroRay]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "we've never met anyone from Essos, so all that we hear is folklore spouted by characters that don't know the place.", and thn considering what medieval europeans would think of China, hearing only of Marco Polo's exploits.

To be fair, we don't have an Essos POV to definitively state that. I thought ADWD did a good job of giving more details, specifically about Volantis. If the book was 100% Essos POV based we'd probably view the Westeros glimpses as European fantasy tropes.

With respect to LOTR, Tolkien's colonialist attitude shines right through the novels, whereas I don't think there's anything like that in ASOIAF.

Yeah, I did consider that. I don't think we've gotten any native Essosi POV other than Melisandre. I am enjoying Arya's adventures in Bravos since it sheds a lot of light on the day to days of at least one city. I also did enjoy Tyrion's travels along the Rhoyne and Volantis. It didn't make for great pacing, but I'm coming to believe that those long, lore filled chapters will be considered a nice break whenever (if ever) the next two books come out.

 

[RedShift]

Victarion beat his wife to death with his bare hands, put 7 prostitutes in a boat and set it on fire, and has slit multiple people's throats and thrown them into the sea.

If he's a racist it really is the least of his crimes. He's also a moron.

On average I think the people of Westeros seem significantly less racist than their real life medieval counterparts. They seem fairly accepting of people from the Summer Islands anyway. And even when Cersei makes up those crazy allegations about the exiled Summer Island prince in AFFC his race is never bought up I don't think, which I imagine it would have been in medieval Europe.

 

[Jack Scofield]

Completely unrelated, but GRRM's continuing focus on Essos is really having a negative impact on this series. "Winter is coming" has been a dire warning since chapter one, but the more we see of ASOIAF's world, the less threatening this warning becomes. Westeros seems like it's the only continent that is affected by winter at all, and that winter is no big deal to 75% of the world's population.

Hell, even Dorne is hardly affected by winter, and considering that the rest of the world is around the same latitude as Dorne, why should I care about winter? Big mistake on Martin's part.

 

[curlyfriski]

The orientalist depiction of the eastern half of Essos is racist. The Sothorys thing I'd just Victarion being an ass.

 

[Enosh]

The Italian/Greek-ish people of the Free Cities seem to be a few centuries ahead of Westeros technologically, and have a democratic society with less reliance on hereditary succession.

they also still have slavery while westeros has it mostly outlawed
and I really don't remember anything that would support them being more advanced technologically

Completely unrelated, but GRRM's continuing focus on Essos is really having a negative impact on this series. "Winter is coming" has been a dire warning since chapter one, but the more we see of ASOIAF's world, the less threatening this warning becomes. Westeros seems like it's the only continent that is affected by winter at all, and that winter is no big deal to 75% of the world's population.

Hell, even Dorne is hardly affected by winter, and considering that the rest of the world is around the same latitude as Dorne, why should I care about winter? Big mistake on Martin's part.

but winter is also supernatural and if the Others win in westeros they can probably extend the winter to the rest of the world as well
well that's assuming that they can control winter not just come when there is winter

westeros is basically the first line of defense and always suffering the brunt of the attack

 

[Epcott]

Are Parshmen an analog of Native Americans/Africans in Sanderson's Stormlight series?
Are Ishvalans a reflection of Ainu/Arab peoples in Arakawa's FMA?
Are Klingons really Roddenberry's take on cold war Russians?

These are things I considered lightly at some point and had a chuckle to myself about. But what OP mentions, the thought never occurred to me. I must have missed it

 

[Kallor]

By this logic GRRM shares the opinions of every single one of his characters.

He's a murdering piece of shit too. Lock his ass up and throw away

Spoiler

TWoW

the key.

 

[elrechazado]

Much better case that grrm is a pedo creeper if we are ascribing all of his character actions to him. Danaerys was 13 bros.

 

[Dabookerman]

The orientalist depiction of the eastern half of Essos is racist. The Sothorys thing I'd just Victarion being an ass.

Are the Dothraki meant to loosely represent the Mongols? To me, it's a combination of Native American/Indian/Mongolian.

I've yet to imagine any of the characters as oriental though. Has there been any that would fit that description?

I definitely agree with the reason why everything in Essos seems exotic, or is described as such is more down to the fact that we've had Westerosi POVs only.. (with the exception of the Melisandre chapter).

 

[Angry Grimace]

The chapters are written from POV. It would actually be out of character for Westerosi characters to be not racist.

 

[Madness]

I mean, this isn't necessarily a good thing, right? Colonial fetishizing of the exotic is not exactly progressive.

I wouldn't know about "fetishizing of the exotic", was more in line with going against OP who thinks that Martin views dark-skinned Sothoryosi as ugly hairy apes when they're also described as beautiful by other characters.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Completely unrelated, but GRRM's continuing focus on Essos is really having a negative impact on this series. "Winter is coming" has been a dire warning since chapter one, but the more we see of ASOIAF's world, the less threatening this warning becomes. Westeros seems like it's the only continent that is affected by winter at all, and that winter is no big deal to 75% of the world's population.

Hell, even Dorne is hardly affected by winter, and considering that the rest of the world is around the same latitude as Dorne, why should I care about winter? Big mistake on Martin's part.

Dorne was covered in snow during the Long Night. Dunno about Essos, but considering the Azor Ahai story originated in the east I'd imagine they dealt with it took.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Its from a racist's point of view. Isn't the cinammon wind crewed by africans essentially? Maybe I read that wrong. The way they are described makes them seem cool as fuck. So basically, Samwell is open minded vs. the ironmen.