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Atheism vs Theism |OT|

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Chaplain

Member
For those theists that claim God is not a physical thing and can't be tested by science, can you please explain the difference between something that doesn't manifest in physical reality (God in the universe) and something that doesn't exist?

The statement that God does not manifest in physical reality is incorrect. Jesus Christ, of course, is the ultimate refutation, but God has also appeared multiple times across all of earth's history (note that I am arguing from a biblical perspective, using the assumption of the internal consistency of the Scriptures). Also, you are asking about the God of the Bible, which is only discussed in the Bible, and I am answering from that standpoint. That said, God is real enough to those to whom God has revealed himself. Real enough that people are willing to die for that reality. Nothing in science trumps personal experience. In fact, science is built on personal experience. Etc.

If a Supreme Being really does exist, and really did create the physical universe, it follows directly that the Being would not be subject to the the laws He set up in that universe. Therefore, asking, "If everything that exists has a cause, who caused God?" is fallacious because the Law of Causality deals with things in the physical universe only, and God is outside that universe.
 

Reyne

Member
That said, God is real enough to those to whom God has revealed himself. Real enough that people are willing to die for that reality. Nothing in science trumps personal experience. In fact, science is built on personal experience. Etc.

Eh? So you are saying that personal experience trumps science, but science is built on personal experience...?
No, science is built on evidence, not anecdotes ( personal experience ). As wikipedia puts it, "anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of scientific information" They are used to come up with hypotheses, but never to validate evidence.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
When we venture into the realm of the untestable, though, we don't have that benefit, and a lot of things do become more subjective.
My reply to this isn't very unique, but I think it's true that key religious claims rest upon testable hypotheses (for example, Jesus really did rise from the dead, god can heal people, etc). Christians say their cherished beliefs are arrived at through divine revelation because that appears to make them ultimately untouchable (it's difficult to argue against someone's experiences), but many of them still try to offer tangible proof for why their beliefs are correct. Even the fairly typical church will try to inculcate a worldview of Christianity in which there is overwhelming evidence for the veracity of their beliefs. It's very comforting, after all, to think that the truth of your belief is undeniable. Denying the obvious proof, therefore, becomes synonymous with rejection of and rebellion against god. There is one branch of theology which states that religion claims need absolutely no proof at all, but that isn't a very intuitive way for humans to think.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Let us contemplate the awe inspiring scale of the universe

hEdbXk5.jpg
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
The statement that God does not manifest in physical reality is incorrect.

On what do you base this conclusion? What scientific evidence is there that He manifests in reality? There is none.

Or once again are you going back to the Bible as your only "evidence" as you imply later in your post? Or are you going to fall back on the "evidence is all around you" line?


Jesus Christ, of course, is the ultimate refutation, but God has also appeared multiple times across all of earth's history (note that I am arguing from a biblical perspective, using the assumption of the internal consistency of the Scriptures).

While there might be some anecdotal support for the existence of the man, Jesus Christ, there is no scientific evidence He was the manifestation of God.

If God has manifested throughout history, where is God now in an age where we can observe, measure, and record with greater fidelity and coverage than ever before? God only seems to want to ever appear in the "gaps".


Also, you are asking about the God of the Bible, which is only discussed in the Bible, and I am answering from that standpoint.

You should try answering from outside of the Bible for once because your circular, self referential arguments are horribly weak.


That said, God is real enough to those to whom God has revealed himself.

Believing in something doesn't make it real.


Real enough that people are willing to die for that reality.

This is a sad aspect of the world we live in.


Nothing in science trumps personal experience.

This is a nonsense statement. So abstract it lacks utility.

You could easily counter such a claim by saying "Entropy trumps every personal experience".


In fact, science is built on personal experience. Etc.

The Scientific Method is specifically designed to avoid the limitations and error prone nature of "personal experience". Peer review and experiment duplication are two examples of this.


If a Supreme Being really does exist, and really did create the physical universe, it follows directly that the Being would not be subject to the the laws He set up in that universe. Therefore, asking, "If everything that exists has a cause, who caused God?" is fallacious because the Law of Causality deals with things in the physical universe only, and God is outside that universe.

This is horribly circular - "If a being outside the Law of Causality exists, then there is a being that exists outside the Law of Causality". You are assuming there is Supreme Being, and there is no scientific evidence to suggest there is one.

Besides which, nothing in the Bible actually definitively suggests God is "outside" of the Universe anyway. He could be on "this side" of the singularity.

Also, a "Law" is just an algorithm that describes a set of observations. Laws are NOT actual restrictions on the Universe. "Newtonian Laws of Physics" are "wrong" in that they do not accurately actually describe physical reality. They are only an approximation. They just provide a useful and simple set of algorithms for the majority of practical cases. The "Law of Causality" is therefore not a restriction that stops the Universe from coming into being without cause.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
This is horribly circular - "If a being outside the Law of Causality exists, then there is a being that exists outside the Law of Causality". You are assuming there is Supreme Being, and there is no scientific evidence to suggest there is one.

While I agree with you on the whole that everything he's saying is utter garbage, this isn't the case. He's not making a circular argument, just saying that an external Creator of the universe could (would?) be not bound by the laws of the universe - even if they interacted with that universe. Which makes a lot of sense.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
While I agree with you on the whole that everything he's saying is utter garbage, this isn't the case. He's not making a circular argument, just saying that an external Creator of the universe could (would?) be not bound by the laws of the universe - even if they interacted with that universe. Which makes a lot of sense.

I'm not saying the original statement is circular. I'm saying the assumptions and intent behind it are circular.

This line of reasoning towards a proof of God is right up there with "God is real because the Bible says so, and the Bible is true because it is the word of God".


While I'm here, let's also try this

Game Analyst said:
If a Supreme Being really does exist, and really did create the physical universe, it follows directly that the Being would not be subject to the the laws He set up in that universe. Therefore, asking, "If everything that exists has a cause, who caused God?" is fallacious because the Law of Causality deals with things in the physical universe only, and God is outside that universe.

If a Non Sentient Universe Spawning Mechanism really does exist, and really did create the physical universe, it follows directly that the Mechanism would not be subject to the the laws that it spawned in that universe. Therefore, asking, "If everything that exists has a cause, who caused the Mechanism?" is fallacious because the Law of Causality deals with things in the physical universe only, and the Mechanism is outside that universe.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
I'm not saying the original statement is circular. I'm saying the assumptions and intent behind it are circular.

This line of reasoning towards a proof of God is right up there with "God is real because the Bible says so, and the Bible is true because it is the word of God".

Still disagree; it's a rebuttal of an argument against God, not an argument for God in itself. It's an argument that a deity that created the universe wouldn't be bound by the laws of that universe, not one that such a deity has to exist because of that.
 

t-ramp

Member
While I'm here, let's also try this

If a Non Sentient Universe Spawning Mechanism really does exist, and really did create the physical universe, it follows directly that the Mechanism would not be subject to the the laws that it spawned in that universe. Therefore, asking, "If everything that exists has a cause, who caused the Mechanism?" is fallacious because the Law of Causality deals with things in the physical universe only, and the Mechanism is outside that universe.
Do you disagree with this? I think the problem is, like iapetus said, the claim that the mechanism is God, not that whatever spawned our universe exists apart from the universe's internal structure.

It reminds me of a William Lane Craig debate where he seemed flabbergasted that someone would thing that there's more "nature" beyond our universe. "Herp derp, the cause of the universe has to be supernatural, how can it be natural. It has to be a personal God." Just because something transcends our universe doesn't mean it has to be one way or another. Yet somehow he crucifies logic in order to insist the mechanism must be God.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
I object to this whole line of reasoning as it is circular and meaningless.

"If <insert anything> is un-caused but it exists, then it is un-caused and exists" adds nothing to the discussion.

And nobody has argued that and that is not what is stated in any of the formulations of this. You're rebutting an argument that hasn't been made and probably isn't going to be made.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
And nobody has argued that and that is not what is stated in any of the formulations of this.

I know.


You're rebutting an argument that hasn't been made and probably isn't going to be made.

I'm objecting to what I think Game Analyst thinks based on his numerous posts on the matter and related topics.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
I'm objecting to what I think Game Analyst thinks based on his numerous posts on the matter and related topics.

Seems a little pointless to object to what you think he might think when there's so much to object to in what he actually says. Debate gets very odd when people are arguing about what they think the other person ought to be saying rather than what they actually are...
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Seems a little pointless to object to what you think he might think when there's so much to object to in what he actually says. Debate gets very odd when people are arguing about what they think the other person ought to be saying rather than what they actually are...

If Game Analyst actually engaged in genuine discussion and put forward his own thoughts and rationale and actually answered questions, rather than drive by quoting of scripture and flat out ignoring challenges and then disappearing, then I wouldn't have to guess what he actually thinks.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Let us contemplate the awe inspiring scale of the universe

Man, I get so excited looking at this just because you know it's highly likely there are tons and tons of other intelligent beings in these galaxies. I wish so bad we could pivot our military budget towards nasa and nuclear ships (or develop some new technology). At least to get a human out of the solar system.

But yea the Jesus dig is even more funny when you realize he isn't even talking to all of the universe, just some people on earth.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Man, I get so excited looking at this just because you know it's highly likely there are tons and tons of other intelligent beings in these galaxies. I wish so bad we could pivot our military budget towards nasa and nuclear ships (or develop some new technology). At least to get a human out of the solar system.

But yea the Jesus dig is even more funny when you realize he isn't even talking to all of the universe, just some people on earth.

Its kinda sad we'll probably never be able to discover any alien civilizations. Fuck you speed of light and your damned time-dilation.
 

Cyan

Banned
I object to this whole line of reasoning as it is circular and meaningless.

"If <insert anything> is un-caused but it exists, then it is un-caused and exists" adds nothing to the discussion.

It's not circular, just pointless. Why say "everything has a cause, therefore the universe has a cause and it's God, but God doesn't need a cause," instead of just saying "the universe doesn't need a cause" to begin with?

It's a curiosity-stopping and unsatisfying thing to say, but so is "well God doesn't need a cause," so there you are.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
From a family member on Facebook... starting from a non-famous person, 213,215 shares in 20 days.

This happened in TN

At a Tennessee Football Game---not a joke, Christianity is now the target of persecution... THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS! GOD BLESS EVERYONE WHO READS THIS AND PASSES IT ON. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT A HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL CAN SEE THE PROBLEM, BUT OUR SOCIETY CANNOT.


Tennessee Football
This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School , Kingston , Tennessee by school Principal, Jody McLeod

"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country."

Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it "an alternate life style," and if someone is offended, that's OK.

I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.

I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a "viable" Means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem...

I can designate a school day as "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess "Mother Earth" and call it "ecology.."

I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depicts people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it "enlightenment.."

However, if anyone uses this facility to honor GOD and to ask HIM to Bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.

This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical.
Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except GOD and HIS Commandments.

Nevertheless , as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical. I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.

For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time.

" However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank GOD and ask HIM,in the name of JESUS, to Bless this event, please feel free to do so .. As far as I know, that's not against the law--yet."

One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another and began to pray.

They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They prayed at the concession stand and they prayed in the Announcer's Box!

The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America- the Seat of "Justice" in the "one nation, under GOD."

Somehow, Kingston , Tennessee Remembered what so many have forgotten. We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion Praise GOD that HIS remnant remains!

JESUS said, "If you are ashamed of ME before men, then I will be ashamed of you before MY FATHER.."

If you are not ashamed, pass this on ..

I'm not one bit ashamed to pass this on, Are you?
THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS! GOD BLESS EVERYONE WHO READS THIS AND PASSES IT ON.
You see, "Under God" is purely ceremonial and should remain. It has no impact on the mindset of Americans.
 
I'll have to lookup the case but it reminds me of when some Atheist kid complained that his school was doing organized school
prayers at things like graduation, etc., and called in the FFRF to talk to the superintendent.

The gist of it was that everyone got chewed out and passive aggressively stopped doing them at pep rallys but gave the kid hell
and eventually started doing them again at graduations that same year.

Guess them bitches aint read Maffew 6, yo.

EDIT: Found it.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/May/Seniors-Hold-Prayer-Despite-Atheists-Threats/
http://www.alternet.org/story/15108...ol_and_is_ostracized,_demeaned_and_threatened
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
From a family member on Facebook... starting from a non-famous person, 213,215 shares in 20 days.

You see, "Under God" is purely ceremonial and should remain. It has no impact on the mindset of Americans.

That reads like something somebody just made up.

But if it is real, that principal has such a poor understanding of the law and its intent, while happily misrepresenting multiple social issues, that I don't think they should be in charge of people tasked with educating children.
 

Cyan

Banned
They removed a key part from the previous version of that chain email (bolded):
This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School , Kingston , Tennessee by school Principal, Jody McLeod on September 1, 2000.

Per Snopes, this is something that actually happened. The principal did indeed read that speech at a football game.
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Umm, I know people who would literally take a bullet for Lady GaGa. This is called fanaticism, and says nothing about the person or object worshipped, but says a lot about the fanatics themselves.

Let's not forget the examples that have already tragically happened, like Heaven's Gate, Jonestown, Waco, etc. I'd hate to think that I missed a ride on an awesome spaceship.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
They removed a key part from the previous version of that chain email (bolded):

Gee, I wonder why.


Per Snopes, this is something that actually happened. The principal did indeed read that speech at a football game.

Well, she isn't principal any more at least. Hopefully her successor has a better grasp on reality and less of a persecution complex.
 
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