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Atlus we need to talk about the Persona 5 localization...

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bomblord1

Banned
It's hard to break "sense". You can still understand something if it hits the right words in roughly the right order - that doesn't stop it from being grammatically or semantically broken.

"You entered a partnership with someone, haven't you?" is grammatically incorrect. It only works if we add another "have", e.g. "You have entered a partnership with someone, haven't you?" to make it present infinitive tense. Otherwise it should be past tense "did". "You entered a partnership with someone, didn't you?"

Sorry but if you have no interest or care about English/language, then there's not much to discuss here. Good writing and language should be clear and concise - half the lines in the OP either feature semantic breaks (you can't "answer" expectations) or grammatical incongruities (the active "will determine" is infinitely better than passive "determines").



Yeah, I think that's the beef. It's the fact that this is a top-tier series with a lot of attention and reverence.

Even though the loc isn't abysmal, it deserved better.

I won't argue with the haven't didn't you are correct there but I'm going to have to say that answering expectations works perfectly fine. We know what he's referring to (answering ex unless we are going to go with an incredibly strict interpretation of the wording and completely ignore how people actually speak in real conversations.

If we are going that far I can't say I fell in love because you can't physically fall onto love. In fact we have to strip away all forms of metaphorical, or poetic interpretation in the writing just because you are excluding non-literal interpretations. It's just silly. We can easily read the word answer as "to act in reaction to" or to "conform or correspond to" and the wording is something a person speaking to another person would say.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20
 

Joeku

Member
Having played the Japanese version, I had no problem whatsoever with the conversations between the main character and the "investigator".

(Spoilers I guess for like fifteen minutes into the game): https://youtu.be/Typ1WD3WWBs?t=10m40s

So, the two scenes here really seem perfectly fine to you? Like, specifically some of the the Older Detective's lines and some of hers to the MC?

Like, clearly a lot of it is totally fine. But when she digs into the MC, it really does read ...off.
 

BY2K

Membero Americo
This is why I almost always hate French translations of games. Even English to French.

It sounds too formal. Too polite. No flavor.

Like, even the main hero and main villain sound super polite to each other. Mankind Divided in French has that problem.
 
I'm only 3 hours in, but the localization is definitely lacking. There are more poorly phrased or grammatically incorrect lines than there should be. As others have said, it's not enough to ruin the game but it really is frustrating, especially when other recent Atlus/Sega games were so much better. For me personally, the quality of the English script elevated P3 and P4. At this point I can't say the same for P5.

I wonder if Atlus JP wanted the English version like this? Even with an accelerated time line, some of the clunker lines must have been caught in recording, right? If I'm tripping over them just reading them, an actor must have struggled a bit to say them out loud.
 

StereoVsn

Member
I am about 4 hours in and localization is somewhat stilted and clunky in places. That sentence structure also has negative effect on VA quality I feel since it's almost impossible to sound right when voicing some of those lines.

Coupled with sometimes off VA direction and you get a result that is subpar compared to previous efforts from Atlus especially as compared to truly excellent P4/P4G or P3/P3P.

Mind you it's still not bad but overall we are nowhere their top level which was just demonstrated by brilliant Yakuza 0 localization. It's more like you would expect from a Tales Of game.

Of course then there is an issue of Japanese VA and missing subtitles on a lot of more minor conversations/TV reports/etc... which also detracts from overall quality.

It seems to me either Atlus USA didn't dedicate their better localization talent or they started too late on it. The latter could be of inane stubbornness of the Japanese branch I guess but still, the script must have been mostly finished a long time ago and this is just unfortunate.
 
trails games are the best translations and it pisses me off see companies other than xseed getting falcom licenses as I do not expect any of them to reach their quality

Yakuza 0's localization is _really_ good too. There is certainly many examples of better localization than Persona 5's out there already
 

SomTervo

Member
It's used in a variety of countries over centuries (including currently and in predominantly English-speaking countries). It is used in real life, which is what I said.

1. It's used in real life by non-professional non-native speakers - not great English

You can make a case for any phrase being part of the vernacular. Heck, you'll find a million instances of "I could care less" being used all the time - that doesn't make it valid or correct.

2. It being used in any century is irrelevant - all that matters is how English is right now. Right now "answer your expectations" is a semantically flawed formation not used in the native vernacular
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
C8jbkKzXYAAqCPp.jpg


Okay, this one is really bad.
 

SomTervo

Member
I won't argue with the haven't didn't you are correct there but I'm going to have to say that answering expectations works perfectly fine. We know what he's referring to (answering ex unless we are going to go with an incredibly strict interpretation of the wording and completely ignore how people actually speak in real conversations.

If we are going that far I can't say I fell in love because you can't physically fall onto love. In fact we have to strip away all forms of metaphorical, or poetic interpretation in the writing just because you are excluding non-literal interpretations. It's just silly. We can easily read the word answer as "to act in reaction to" or to "conform or correspond to" and the wording is something a person speaking to another person would say.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20

1. What your talking about, generally, are idioms. Idioms are phrases that have been coded over a long period of time that often don't make literal or logical sense. E.g. "fall in love". Idioms take a long time to develop in a language and are part of its culture.

Nothing in the OPs examples are idioms. None of them have a precedent. None of them are part of the culture that have grown over time. They are singular instances - errors (or at least problems) in the script.

Indeed, on the very last page, we identified that there are practically no native examples of "answer your expectations" from the modern English vernacular. If it is an idiom, it never caught on and died. It's a problem in a piece of modern English. It can make sense under that website's 20th definition, but that's likely an archaic form/use of the word.

2. More importantly and specifically, there's a big question here about the syntactical roles and rules of different words/formations. "Your rehabilitation determines if ruin can be stopped" is a problem because "your rehabilitation" doesn't have a relational aspect. "The success of your rehabilitation [will determine]" is something that does have a relational aspect, so it works.

Then there's the fact that "determines" is a passive verb which weakens the sentence as a whole, yadda, yadda.
 

The Lamp

Member
English is my first language, and I had no idea that these screenshots had anything wrong with them. I stared at them for quite some time. For the most part, they don't look anymore awkward than the idea they're trying to portray.

This website is a hyperbole station at times.
 
So is this pushing people over to Japanese VA instead of English?

It would push me, personally. I've known I would be using Japanese VAs from moment I heard "are you really a bad person... like the rumors say?" in the trailer.

This is also a really badly translated line, true to this thread. Japanese VAs can only solve so much. But there is at least a degree of ambiguity when you're not hearing the line voiced as well.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the acting itself. It's the lines. And that's too bad.
 

SOLDIER

Member
English is my first language, and I had no idea that these screenshots had anything wrong with them. I stared at them for quite some time. They don't look anymore awkward than the idea they're trying to portray.

This website is a hyperbole station at times.

God I really hope so.

I really hope this is just a case of out of context.

Because the last thing I want is Persona 5 to be yet another victim of "Release this game unfinished/unpolished, apologize later, patch the fixes overtime, continue to say it's FOR THE FANS."

Is this karma for laughing at ME Andromeda? Persona 5 was the last game I expected to fall victim to this, so I really hope that's not the case.
 

zelas

Member
To those saying these lines are fine because they have japanese flavor/serve to remind you the game is from japan, what about the notion that the original japanese phrasing was just seen by japanese payers as completely normal flowing japanese and thus was completely unremarkable. If a key point of localization is to adapt language to other regions while conveying then author's intent, then I don't see how these stiff and awkward translations can be seen as good localization. Especially when tone randomly jumps back and forth.

This. Compiling a list of a few out of context sentences and damning them to hell and back for it seems a little overboard.
What are you talking about?? People bringing these quotes up are playing the game and seeing these quotes in context. Then context is what makes these stand out.
 

Majora

Member
I won't argue with the haven't didn't you are correct there but I'm going to have to say that answering expectations works perfectly fine. We know what he's referring to (answering ex unless we are going to go with an incredibly strict interpretation of the wording and completely ignore how people actually speak in real conversations.

If we are going that far I can't say I fell in love because you can't physically fall onto love. In fact we have to strip away all forms of metaphorical, or poetic interpretation in the writing just because you are excluding non-literal interpretations. It's just silly. We can easily read the word answer as "to act in reaction to" or to "conform or correspond to" and the wording is something a person speaking to another person would say.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20


Falling in love is a well-established English phrase. You can't literally fall in love, obviously, but the use of it is correct because it has entered established conventions.

Answering expectations is not established or correct usage of English. Just because you can deduce the meaning of it does not make it correct. Just because you personally don't care about clumsy use of language does not make it correct. This isn't about metaphorical or poetic interpretation on behalf of the writers, it's just poor translation.

Expectations are a metaphorical bar to reach. They're a goal. They're a set of standards to achieve. They can't be answered. Native English speakers do not use the phrase answering expectations.

Again, just because you can deduce what answered means in context does not mean that the sentence is not a poor translation.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Yeah the localization is rough the opening hour I barely understood ("ruin?" Wut?) hell, the opening seconds where they are talking about "Jokers" and "these are folks that prevent ruin" had me double-take because I couldn't parse it until now: They're talking about the Persona 3/4 main characters ("wild cards"/jokers).
 

Joeku

Member
English is my first language, and I had no idea that these screenshots had anything wrong with them. I stared at them for quite some time. For the most part, they don't look anymore awkward than the idea they're trying to portray.

This website is a hyperbole station at times.

How many fansubs have you watched over the years?

God I really hope so.

I really hope this is just a case of out of context.

Because the last thing I want is Persona 5 to be yet another victim of "Release this game unfinished/unpolished, apologize later, patch the fixes overtime, continue to say it's FOR THE FANS."

Is this karma for laughing at ME Andromeda? Persona 5 was the last game I expected to fall victim to this, so I really hope that's not the case.

This isn't like MEA at all. Atlus didn't totally drop the ball, they stumbled on the way to the finish line. The game is still, by all accounts, really fantastic.

To those saying these lines are fine because they have japanese flavor/serve to remind you the game is from japan, what about the notion that the original japanese phrasing was just seen by japanese payers as completely normal flowing japanese and thus was completely unremarkable. If a key point of localization is to adapt language to other regions while conveying then author's intent, then I don't see how these stiff and awkward translations can be seen as good localization. Especially when tone randomly jumps back and forth.

This, and moreover, there just isn't an easy answer. "Itidakimasu" doesn't have a universal English equivalent, culturally. There isn't a way around translating it, there is no particularly precise translation that makes situational sense in English, and whenever I see it in a setting that isn't Japan, it pulls me out of whatever I'm watching. A good translation minimizes this kind of disconnect.
 

bomblord1

Banned
What your talking about are idioms. Idioms are phrases that have been coded over a long period of time that often don't make literal or logical sense. E.g. "fall in love". Idioms take a long time to develop in a language and are part of its culture.

Nothing in the OPs examples are idioms. None of them have a precedent. None of them are part of the culture that have grown over time. They are singular instances - errors (or at least problems) in the script.

I'm well aware of what an idiom is. However, answering expectations makes perfect sense. As I said it works even going by a dictionary definition.

You seem to want to exclude any definition that is not the first or second in the dictionary (I had a writing professor like that he always called it "Conversational English" and would dock points for anyone who used it) however that particular example works fine as the protagonist is literally having a conversation with someone else not writing a formal essay.

You can answer expectations http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20
 

SomTervo

Member
English is my first language, and I had no idea that these screenshots had anything wrong with them. I stared at them for quite some time. For the most part, they don't look anymore awkward than the idea they're trying to portray.

This website is a hyperbole station at times.

There are literal errors right there.


Should have a "didn't you" at the end instead of "haven't you". That's a categorical verb/tense disagreement and a big error for a high-tier story-focused game like this.
 
Ugh they have? Makes me not want to get it.
I'll wait for the golden rerelease.
Do you really thing they will remove something as elementary as honorifics in a re-release? You use them or you don't. They'll recycle as much of the old text as they can (this is a 80+ hour game after all), so if you want to miss out on Persona 5 for something this insignificant then that's up to you. It's not like they haven't already reduced the amount of honorifics in this localisation quite a bit compared to Persona 4/5 (and yes, that includes Golden).

As someone studying Japanese I'm still surprised people get so offended by honorifics, it's not something useless like (not) switching out -san for Mr/Mrs in many cases, honorifics can also radically change the meaning of an entire sentence. For example calling another adult/teenage guy '-chan' is often a serious between the lines insult as you basically treat them as if they were a(n underage) girl or kid. A girl calling another girl '-kun' would often raise eye brows as well as it implies whoever you are talking to/about to be tomboyish/like a guy because girls usually tend to use it when referring to guys. Good luck transferring that meaning into a non-literal translation in a way that doesn't sound completely odd. And especially in a high school context you WILL have those cases. It gets even more ridiculous when people want a translation to remain 'faithful to the Japanese culture' or want the original meaning of what is said to remain intact but complain about honorifics.

And a significant part of the anime/manga fanbase (which likely has a very high overlap with the western playerbase of this game, especially after the popular P3/P4 anime) does know the meaning of honorifics (I mean, it takes like 5 seconds to google up and after a while it becomes self explaining from context alone, and then you can easily deduct the change of meaning if honorifics are switched out to one reserved for another gender), otherwise they wouldn't be as prevalent in translations of Japanese pop media. Some people (like me, for above mentioned reason) even want them to be in. I only find them odd if translators can't seem to decide between using -san and Mr./Mrs, I remember one line in Persona 4 Golden where both were used and it was quite jarring. In the end it's a stylistic choice..
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
How many fansubs have you watched over the years?



This isn't like MEA at all. Atlus didn't totally drop the ball, they stumbled on the way to the finish line. The game is still, by all accounts, really fantastic.

This is not a stumble, IMO. Quirky dialog has been part of Persona for decades.

And honestly, I think it adds to the charm of these games and meshes great with the dry sense of humor they are shooting for. The way things in this game are described are sometimes really unique and I love it for that. It's in no way a detriment to the game, but that's just my personal opinion.

I loved the weird text stuff in Persona 4 as well. 'Your hand has stopped' in a little dialog box is to me a quirky and endearing way to describe that you physically stopped writing, for example.

Obvious technical/spelling errors are obviously not preferable, but I haven't really caught many of those during my first 15+ hours.
 

The Lamp

Member
There are literal errors right there.



Should have a "didn't you" at the end instead of "haven't you". That's a categorical verb/tense disagreement and a big error for a high-tier story-focused game like this.

Is it wrong because it didn't say "you have entered" at the beginning?
 

mindsale

Member
This thread brings honor to all those who post in it, yet the specter of the workday looms and seconds tick like loudly yapping dogs in the waning brightness of the moon until I can place Persona 5 within the drive of my 4th PlayStation, professional.
 

Joeku

Member
This is not a stumble, IMO. Quirky dialog has been part of Persona for decades.

And honestly, I think it adds to the charm of these games and meshes great with the dry sense of humor they are shooting for. The way things in this game are described are sometimes really unique and I love it for that. It's in no way a detriment to the game, but that's just my personal opinion.

I loved the weird text stuff in Persona 4 as well. 'Your hand has stopped' in a little dialog box is to me a quirky and endearing way to describe that you physically stopped writing, for example.

Obvious technical/spelling errors are obviously not preferable, but I haven't really caught many of those during my first 15+ hours.

Dude, if it doesn't bother you in the least and instead enhances the experience, more power to you. Genuinely. I don't want other people to be less entertained because I see shit that makes me tilt my head and go "Wait, what?"

I just can't not tilt my head.
 
It looks like they didn't have the time to give the script another pass or something
Couple fixes I came up with for fun

"I can't believe Mr. Kamoshida hasn't given up on that punk."

"Don't worry, I'll do my best." Heck, just cut off everything after "I'll continue to do my best" and it's way better.
Does the "Well written localization that's completely unfaithful to the Japanese original" actually exist, really? Outside of gag dubs like Ghost Stories, I can't think of anything
 
This thread brings honor to all those who post in it, yet the specter of the workday looms and seconds tick like loudly yapping dogs in the waning brightness of the moon until I can place Persona 5 within the drive of my 4th PlayStation, professional.
The sentence you wrote here was funny. Warai
 

Wink

Member
I can understand arguments for both sides. Personally I don't mind a clunky translation as long as it has flair and distinction between characters, an aspect that seems to have gone over well as far as I've played.

What I do not get is the occassional honorifics hate in this thread. It fits the modern day Japan setting, the game is basically about japanese culture. It's not like we're in Venice calling someone DaVinci-san.
 
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