Austrian Elections 2017 |OT| Voting right wing parties into parliament since 1949

[...]
No one is a thief there, it's just not uhm huh.. fair? In some cases the Mindestsicherung outpaces the money that some people even work for. Explain them why please.
because the party you apparently think is social does it's best to suppress wages?
The problem isn't a high Mindestsicherung but low wages, and die FPÖ together with the ÖVP are all about abolishing the AK - you know, the guys who keep wages rising.

To the rhetoric: i stated in one of my first comments in this thread that it's time for more wealthy people to get a cut, even if it would hit me a bit.

So rich people = getting a cut
Refugees = providing a better housing option because camps are terrible, then providing with work
Bad earning people = more money
I fail to grasp your logic... no matter how many times I read it.


The image you have of the FPÖ is like the total opposite of what they are and stand for. So either you crossed dimensions into opposite-land or I've been wrong all these years. Which is it?


Noob question from a foreigner: Has Niederösterreich always been that conservative?
it's like 90% farming and 10% industrial areas. I'm sure you can easily spot the latter
 
Hofer should definitely be defense minister. He was pretty defensive yesterday by immediately accusing the reporter of an agenda upon the first question asked. Maybe that's what he's good at.

Noob question from a foreigner: Has Niederösterreich always been that conservative?
NÖ has been black for as long as I know. I worked at Grafenegg Festival for a while and they seemed to treat Erwin Pröll is like a saint.
 
Noob question from a foreigner: Has Niederösterreich always been that conservative?
Lower Austria is pretty much the bastion of conservativism. For the ÖVP, it's enough to be from there in order to qualify for a minister post, as evidenced by our still current minister of interior, who used to be a music teacher, and who wants to massively increase surveillance because someone took a dump in front of his door.

And no, I'm not kidding. I wish I was, but it's the truth.
 
[...]
NÖ has been black for as long as I know. I worked at Grafenegg Festival for a while and they seemed to treat Erwin Pröll is like a saint.
I'm sure the pussy riot satire a few years back was no coincidence either...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QoPZFrnLbs

although the few red districts in the east/south-east rather hate him since they get no funding for anything (because they are/were red, obviously)

Kunasek's "patriotism" saying was a bit frightening. Paraphrasing but something along the lines of "it's good to see patriotism is on the rise again".
source? :/
 
You're right that the topic is (im)migrant -refugee. You're not right that migrant and immigrant are synonyms, as you can use them differently.
Sorry, you're wrong here. Right in theory, but wrong in this specific situation.
Every immigrant is a migrant, but not every migrant is an immigrant, yes.
But as the talk was about "migrants in Austria", it was clearly used synonymous with immigrants.
Emigrants don't stay in Austria, and they don't get anything, so clearly, this wasn't about them.
Thus, for all intents and purposes, here, migrants = immigrants.

Give them to work asap = yes
No one is a thief there, it's just not uhm huh.. fair? In some cases the Mindestsicherung outpaces the money that some people even work for. Explain them why please.
What is not fair?
And can you produce any sources to show that something unfair/unbalanced is actually happening?
Don't get me wrong, but I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
 
With an ÖVP-led government, if anything is going to happen, then it's the working poor increasing massively in size. The ÖVP already has toyed with the though of introducing Hartz IV to Austria, which has been an absolute social disaster over in Germany.
It led to insane increase of the working poor because:
- Every unemployed person was forced to take even the worst paying jobs (so called 1 € Jobs), which led to
- The people who have been employed before the introduction of Hartz having to accept losses in their wages or get fired.

So while unemployment rate in Germany has gone down, and the economy has increased very much, the insane wage dumping has led to an ever increasing amount of people who cannot afford living despite working full time jobs, but they cannot quit these jobs because if they do, their social support is going to get taken away.
And of course this also has an impact on the income of the elderly: Since these jobs don't pay much into the social security system, the pensioner will receive the minimum.

And while the FPÖ stated that they want to introduce minimum wages for everyone, I sincerely doubt that they're going to stand in the way of the ÖVP should they want to introduce Hartz IV. And they have been behind the proposal to combine Mindestsicherung and Notstandshilfe. And mind you, the latter is only paid to people who already contributed to the system.

It's always portrayed by rightwingers that the Mindestsicherung allows people to live in Saus und Braus, which is utter horseshit. I welcome you to try and get by with like 800€ a month when living in a rented flat, especially in bigger towns or cities.
 
Sorry, you're wrong here. Right in theory, but wrong in this specific situation.
Every immigrant is a migrant, but not every migrant is an immigrant, yes.
But as the talk was about "migrants in Austria", it was clearly used synonymous with immigrants.
Emigrants don't stay in Austria, and they don't get anything, so clearly, this wasn't about them.
Thus, for all intents and purposes, here, migrants = immigrants.


What is not fair?
And can you produce any sources to show that something unfair/unbalanced is actually happening?
Don't get me wrong, but I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
I know the distinction. But yeah, if you mean that now they are synonyms in that specific situation, it is what it is. I call that nitpicking already, because we know which people are meant and i'm not here to please all nitpickers now. 1-2 years ago the term for todays Asylwerber changed nearly monthly. Pardon me if i don't care that much about a term, rather than the people.

And yes, i can. Due to an untreatable illness my mother had to retire early. She for example earns money that's less than the Mindestsicherung. So less than 800. Inflation is higher than the % raise she gets as a pensionist. She had 2 kids to feed, so tell me about it. I always discuss politics with her and just because i know how she lived, i accept that her only choice was to vote for a change for example. And that was not because she wants others to do worse, but she wants to do better.
I, even if i have another sight in things, understand her choice completely. And i know that there are many more that have the exact same reasoning. Again, everyone, go on with your apocalyptic Nazi Austria now, because it isn't.

With an ÖVP-led government, if anything is going to happen, then it's the working poor increasing massively in size. The ÖVP already has toyed with the though of introducing Hartz IV to Austria, which has been an absolute social disaster over in Germany.
It led to insane increase of the working poor because:
- Every unemployed person was forced to take even the worst paying jobs (so called 1 € Jobs), which led to
- The people who have been employed before the introduction of Hartz having to accept losses in their wages or get fired.

So while unemployment rate in Germany has gone down, and the economy has increased very much, the insane wage dumping has led to an ever increasing amount of people who cannot afford living despite working full time jobs, but they cannot quit these jobs because if they do, their social support is going to get taken away.
And of course this also has an impact on the income of the elderly: Since these jobs don't pay much into the social security system, the pensioner will receive the minimum.

And while the FPÖ stated that they want to introduce minimum wages for everyone, I sincerely doubt that they're going to stand in the way of the ÖVP should they want to introduce Hartz IV. And they have been behind the proposal to combine Mindestsicherung and Notstandshilfe. And mind you, the latter is only paid to people who already contributed to the system.

It's always portrayed by rightwingers that the Mindestsicherung allows people to live in Saus und Braus, which is utter horseshit. I welcome you to try and get by with like 800€ a month when living in a rented flat, especially in bigger towns or cities.
Bullshit. It's just that it is a good life if you don't even need to work for such an amount of money. But go on. More than 800€ for a person that has never worked or contributed to society? The hell? Are you all that far away from the world? And some students get much much less and are able to survive! Some live on 500€ and less in Vienna, so please keep your insanity. Why do you all wonder that much? If so many people voted for a change, there has to be something more than just "uguu, austrians now racist nazis yadayada". I still understand why it happened.
 
You're aware that the Mindestsicherung is less than 1% of the entire social budget, yes?
That the majority of people who are receiving it are Aufstocker, i.e. people who receive less than the 800something € in wages or Notstandshilfe and are getting up to the amount of the Mindestsicherung?
Also, refugees that have not yet been given asylum don't even receive the Mindestsicherung, either.

We're talking about what's basically peanuts, here.

Also, in regards to your mother: The minimum pensions are like 900€. She may want to go there and ask why she is not getting that.
 
Thanks for changing the topic from immigrants to migrants. We both know, that you know enough, that these are two completely different topics, as migrants are integrated in the system. They have the right to earn money, so also can pay into the system. There's no way someone should be angry at them. And also not on immigrants actually, but some are, because politics did lead that whole process in a manner where they can't contribute. So, as you see, not a topic where you need to try to educate me, I'm in there.
You're right that the topic is (im)migrant -refugee. You're not right that migrant and immigrant are synonyms, as you can use them differently.

Yes, the refugee part is missing. It should've been immigrants/migrants and refugees. Thought it was clear that i meant the problems that arose with the flood.
Sorry, you're wrong here. Right in theory, but wrong in this specific situation.
Every immigrant is a migrant, but not every migrant is an immigrant, yes.
But as the talk was about "migrants in Austria", it was clearly used synonymous with immigrants.
Emigrants don't stay in Austria, and they don't get anything, so clearly, this wasn't about them.
Thus, for all intents and purposes, here, migrants = immigrants.
I know the distinction. But yeah, if you mean that now they are synonyms in that specific situation, it is what it is. I call that nitpicking already, because we know which people are meant and i'm not here to please all nitpickers now. 1-2 years ago the term for todays Asylwerber changed nearly monthly. Pardon me if i don't care that much about a term, rather than the people.

Time for a loud and obnoxious german to barge in and start schooling austrians on the intricacies of the german language, something they deep down love oh so much.

Migrant is the umbrella term for two positional descriptions - 'immigrant' (who migrates into a country) and 'emigrant' (who migrates out of a country).
Every migrant has to be both immigrant and emigrant based on the fact that every migration is a move from somewhere to somewhere else.
And while migration can be used in a multitude of contexts (like birds and data) - immigrant and emigrant generally only specify movement of (the same) people from a different point of view.

I - as a descendant of the likes of Göthe and von Humboldt - emigrated from my beloved Germany to Austria. This of course will forever mark me as an immigrant - or in my case 'piefke' - to the strange native inhabitants of this sometimes irritating and quite bizarre country.

But clearly there seems to be some distinction in the definition of terms, a curious particularity I hope these two specimen will further elaborate on.
 
I know the distinction. But yeah, if you mean that now they are synonyms in that specific situation, it is what it is. I call that nitpicking already, because we know which people are meant and i'm not here to please all nitpickers now.
Firstly, good that you know, so why did you say "we are talking about immigrants and not migrants"? You are the one who was trying to nitpick when it was clear what was talked about. You were claiming wrong vocabulary was used.

1-2 years ago the term for todays Asylwerber changed nearly monthly. Parton me if i don't care that much about a term, rather than the people.
No. The definition of "Asylwerber" never changed. What the hell are you talking about.

And yes, i can. Due to an untreatable illness my mother had to retire early. She for example earns money that's less than the Mindestsicherung. So less than 800. Inflation is higher than the % raise she gets as a pensionist. She had 2 kids to feed, so tell me about it. I always discuss politics with her and just because i know how she lived, i accept that her only choice was to vote for a change for example. And that was not because she wants others to do worse, but she wants to do better.
I, even if i have another sight in things, understand her choice completely. And i know that there are many more that have the exact same reasoning. Again, everyone go on with your apocalyptic Nazi Austria now, because it isn't.
What are you talking about.
If she had less money than the Mindestsicherung, wouldn't she be able to, you know.
Get Mindestsicherung? I may be wrong, but can you elaborate on the situation? (EDIT: Also, it was just pointed out that pensions should be higher than Mindestsicherung)

Also, you are not providing a source for systemic unfairness, you are throwing out an unclear anecdote.
Please try to clearly tell me what refugees get which you consider unfair to non-refugees.
Or something immigrants get which is unfair to non-immigrants.


Time for a loud and obnoxious german to barge in and start schooling austrians on the intricacies of the german language, something they deep down love oh so much.

Migrant is the umbrella term for two positional descriptions - 'immigrant' (who migrates into a country) and 'emigrant' (who migrates out of a country).
Every migrant has to be both immigrant and emigrant based on the fact that every migration is a move from somewhere to somewhere else.
And while migration can be used in a multitude of contexts (like birds and data) - immigrant and emigrant generally only specify movement of (the same) people from a different point of view.

I - as a descendant of the likes of Göthe and von Humboldt - emigrated from my beloved Germany to Austria. This of course will forever mark me as an immigrant - or in my case 'piefke' - to the strange native inhabitants of this sometimes irritating and quite bizarre country.

But clearly there seems to be some distinction in the definition of terms, a curious particularity I hope these two specimen will further elaborate on.
That's what I said, isn't it? I'm not sure if you think I said anything incorrect.
Hisoka seems/seemed to see a clear distinction between separate groups, when "immigrant" is just a sub-category.
I hope you'll also agree that when saying "Migrants (in austria) pay way more into the system than they receive.", "Migrants in Austria" is used synonymous with "immigrants to Austria".
It's merely a semantic issue, but many discussions get way out of hand due to semantics, so I want to never leave any doubt when it comes to meanings and definitions.
 
Yes, i'm aware. And i still know some people who get less than 800€, so where's the money?
Also, not every refugee that was granted asylum is also able to work asap. So there are people that get nothing until that, and then people who can work and people who don't, but still get 800€.

If it was peanuts, then.. where is the money and why are the people not living more wealthy?

People want more regulation and tbh, most must be already cling on hope rather than real numbers, because SPÖVP always promised a change that never came. That alone shows me how desperate the people already are. With SPÖVP again, nothing changes the slightest.
 
Are they the single earners? Because if not I'm afraid you are mixing notions.
I think students are exempted from receiving Mindestsicherung as well. So are Wehr- and Zivildiener.
Which, frankly, is an injustice, and should definitely be fixed, but not by taking away the Mindestsicherung from others.

And, of course, the situation of students and conscripted men is absolutely not going to change under an FPÖVP government. If you think they will do anything in that regard, you're kidding yourself. If anything, it'll become a lot harder for them.
 
It was so disappointing how the SPO messed up that vote. The OVP successfully made it about Zivildienst more than the army.

I was already finished being a Sani but that practice is just a waste of time for young adults and keeps industries propped up and wages low by forced cheap labour.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I think students are exempted from receiving Mindestsicherung as well. So are Wehr- and Zivildiener.
Which, frankly, is an injustice, and should definitely be fixed, but not by taking away the Mindestsicherung from others.

And, of course, the situation of students and conscripted men is absolutely not going to change under an FPÖVP government. If you think they will do anything in that regard, you're kidding yourself.
Ah, right. Fair point. Although, I'm not aware of too many places in Europe where students earn very well. Scandinavian countries probably. Looking at statistics Austria is right on the EU average in this chapter.
 
Ah, right. Fair point. Although, I'm not aware of too many places in Europe where students earn very well. Scandinavian countries probably. Looking at statistics Austria is right on the EU average in this chapter.
Education is the real future, so it would be prudent to invest in it.
I'm not saying that there aren't worse places to study in, but the support that young people receive is utterly terrible.

Plus the fact that glorious messiah Kurz's plan for both youth and elderly alike is to reduce the governmental costs of purchasing the first home is laughable. Because government fees are what are causing the issues, and not the exorbitant prices of estate. /s
 
[...] so where's the money? [...] where is the money and why are the people not living more wealthy?
in the pockets of the parties you just voted into power

[...] because SPÖVP always promised a change that never came. That alone shows me how desperate the people already are. With SPÖVP again, nothing changes the slightest.
You realize that the ÖVP drifted quite far to the right on the political spectrum compared to the pre-1980s ÖVP, right?
How do you expect a coalition of 2 parties which a pretty much the opposite of each other to bring some significant change? Sure, now you've got 2 right-wing parties, which makes "change" a lot easier, but as others have pointed out over and over and over again, change just for the sake of it is worthless. And the change these parties will bring is not the change you seem to hope for - unless, of course, you're either a rich asshole or a right-wing asshole (which I doubt).
 
That's what I said, isn't it? I'm not sure if you think I said anything incorrect.
Hisoka seems/seemed to see a clear distinction between separate groups, when "immigrant" is just a sub-category.
I hope you'll also agree that when saying "Migrants (in austria) pay way more into the system than they receive.", "Migrants in Austria" is used synonymous with "immigrants to Austria".
It's merely a semantic issue, but many discussions get way out of hand due to semantics, so I want to never leave any doubt when it comes to meanings and definitions.
I quoted you so not to add to the dogpile too much, sorry for the confusion

Still curious how the other user arrived at the conclusion that migrant and immigrant are somehow distinct categories based on some diffuse unit of measurement like Integration.
 
It was so disappointing how the SPO messed up that vote. The OVP successfully made it about Zivildienst more than the army.

I was already finished being a Sani but that practice is just a waste of time for young adults and keeps industries propped up and wages low by forced cheap labour.
I thoroughly enjoyed my Zivildienst at the ASB, but yeah that vote was a complete shitshow and that is really disappointing for how much it meant to Austria's youth. This stuff should be optional and made accessible for women as well, if not just fused with the FSJ at all.

I was gonna say I was surprised by this given a voter turnout of almost 80%, but then I realized not everyone reads the Krone.

Still that's a sizable amount of people, so I wonder how many people voted for ÖVP/FPÖ out of loyalty as opposed to actually feeling like stuff is going to change.
 
I quoted you so not to add to the dogpile too much, sorry for the confusion

Still curious how the other user arrived at the conclusion that migrant and immigrant are somehow distinct categories based on some diffuse unit of measurement like Integration.
I just want to hear why they think that some years ago, the definition of "Asylbewerber" changed, and supposedly numerous times. Almost monthly.
I'm hoping for examples. Some of the various different definitions.

Puls4 reporter has been attacked at the fpö after party

http://mobil.nachrichten.at/nachric...eier-ins-Gesicht-geschlagen;art204165,2707537

Totally not racists

Smh
Yeah, saw that headline on a copy of todays Österreich left at a bus station..
Absolutely insane.
Especially while being filmed(supposedly, though there is no video of the punch released, right?)? What a moron.
Watch FPÖ apologists call it a false flag.
 
Article in question as well as the cover. [...]

Das tiefe Bedürfnis nach Veränderung der österreichischen Bevölkerung wird nun befriedigt. Selten habe ich etwas Dümmeres gehört. Die Österreicher wollen keine Veränderung. Sie wollen, dass alles so bleibt, wie es immer war, halt ohne Flüchtlinge und andere lästige Begleiterscheinungen der Moderne
Probably the most accurate sentence I've read in a while.

I should stop reading the comments below various articles though... it's like facepalm-capital most of the time. Especially the obvious countryside-city divide is astounding.
 
Nope it's different.
Still laughing (or crying?) at the logic this people have... it's completely backwards what they want and what they vote. I don't get it.

Here is a non-FB link: http://ze.tt/die-anderen-sind-labii...erfer-oesterreichs-schaemt-sich-niemand-mehr/
thanks!
the video was more interesting than the article itself. I kinda liked the old woman at the end. If only the entire village was like her, the country would be a lot better off. Too bad young people seem to be complete morons with zero understanding for context beyond "they are taking out stuff".
My grandfather, who's somewhat xenophobic himself at least recognizes and pre-emptively scolded me about not voting for the FPÖVP because they are not on "our" side (he strongly class-conscious and identifies as a "worker" in the rather socialist/communist sense). This is one dimension the younger generation lacks. He's old, so he had 70 years of getting fucked over and over by right-wing policies.
Young people do not have this kind of experience (or as also shown in this thread) tend to ignore it in the hopes of "change". Seems like things will only get worse as old people on the countryside will slowly die, and young ones will politically inbreed until they live in some sort of dream-bubble.
Which seems to be part of the bigger problem, as the video also shows how the irrational fear of the other works. People who have no contact to refugees/foreigners are more likely to vote for right-wing shit-heads. So just by looking at the voters map, you can pretty much pinpoint the locations were a bigger number of foreigners/refugees live. The stuff they read about more international centres like Vienna ("integration does not work!") isn't going to improve their twisted world view either.