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Opinion Auteur Theory and TLOU2

tsumake

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Dec 3, 2019
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The current Star Wars franchise is in crisis. It is rumored that Disney is going to completely disregard the sequel trilogy and reboot the story, basically nullifying three major movies in their franchise. This extreme measure can arguably traced back to The Last Jedi. While the film was incredibly polarizing to fans, it still pulled in over a billion dollars at the box office. It seems as if those miffed fans took revenge on the next SW film with Solo - it was the first SW film to actually lose money. Lucasfilm tried to course correct with RoS but it wasn’t enough - the damage was done and it probably started with TLJ.

People often compare TLJ with TLOU2 - both narratives took radical departures with beloved characters and thus caused a division within the fandom. And, both titles made a considerable amount of money. However, Star Wars is no longer under the helm of George Lucas. Star Wars productions are now very much create by committee affairs. While Kathleen Kennedy is ostensibly in charge, she didn’t create the franchise and even her tenure is in question. TLOU2 is very much Neil Druckmann’s creation.

Druckmann considers himself an auteur. The polarizing reaction of TLOU2 only solidifies the artistic merit if the game. The fact that it sold so well only validates his decisions. If ND were to make TLOU3, there wouldn’t be much of a change - Druckmann would make a few concessions here and there to throw fans a bone but he wouldn’t be financially compelled to address fan complaints. In fact, he may well be satisfied if the potential third game had disappointing sales, if were able to make the game his way. He’d just move on to another project.

Do you respect Druckmann enough as a game designer to purchase a TLOU3 if he made those superficial changes? If you really dislike TLOU2, then in his mind the series is not for you. I’m not advocating a boycott of the game. This is how an auteur thinks. He views himself an artist and in his mind an artist is supposed to be controversial.

Is there enough in a Neil Druckmann game for you to overlook the criticism and support his work financially?

NB: I am not a fan of Druckmann’s work. I started a thread specifically asking if UC4 was more a Druckmann or Hennig game because of that. But the financial and critically success of TLOU2, he’s here to stay.
 
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Guilty_AI

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Why do you think people who loved the first, bought the second?

Hint 1: it wasn't neil druckmann

Hint 2: that something stopped existing since tlou2.

Not hard to see how a third entry wouldn't be nearly as succesful as the previous 2
 
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#Phonepunk#

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feel like it is different, because Druck was actually behind TLOU1. the new people making Star Wars have literally no connections to the original creators.
 
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sobaka770

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I will try and engage in this because there are things I agree with.

I agree that both TLOU2 and TLJ are definitely auteur creations. They take the existing situation and sacrifice fan service, easy decisions and conventional plot formalities in favour of a strong original story with intent and high-concept ideas. Making a Star Wars movie into an everyone-miserably-fails-and-learns-from-it movie was a huge risk. Making TLOU2 instead of Joel and Ellie romp into a tale of revenge and pain is a huge creative risk as well. To me it only elevates these works as striking way above the genre, where the audience expects to munch popcorn and safe entertainment. I can't help but applaud the effort.

However, I do think that Star Wars mostly suffered not because of TLJ but because a) Solo came out too soon after TLJ b) JJ Abrams can't write a good ending to a story so making him come back and instead of following on TLJ good ideas to completely reinvent the story and make fake concessions to deluded "fanboys" was a terrible decision. I think that Druckmann should not give an inch to the mob on TLOU3 and find another topic to investigate through this post-apocalyptic world and its morally corrupt characters. That's what a great series deserves. I'll be there day 1.
 
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tsumake

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Dec 3, 2019
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I will try and engage in this because there are things I agree with.

I agree that both TLOU2 and TLJ are definitely auteur creations. They take the existing situation and sacrifice fan service, easy decisions and conventional plot formalities in favour of a strong original story with intent and high-concept ideas. Making a Star Wars movie into an everyone-miserably-fails-and-learns-from-it movie was a huge risk. Making TLOU2 instead of Joel and Ellie romp into a tale of revenge and pain is a huge creative risk as well. To me it only elevates these works as striking way above the genre, where the audience expects to munch popcorn and safe entertainment. I can't help but applaud the effort.

However, I do think that Star Wars mostly suffered not because of TLJ but because a) Solo came out too soon after TLJ b) JJ Abrams can't write a good ending to a story so making him come back and instead of following on TLJ good ideas to completely reinvent the story and make fake concessions to deluded "fanboys" was a terrible decision. I think that Druckmann should not give an inch to the mob on TLOU3 and find another topic to investigate through this post-apocalyptic world and its morally corrupt characters. That's what a great series deserves. I'll be there day 1.

I appreciate your response. I’m looking for a conversation, not a reaction.
 
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It only works if it were a comedy. For instance, let's take a success like Star Wars OG, then in Empire within the first act, Vader kills all the main cast of good guys then butt fucks a stormtrooper in a wig (still wearing the white helmet underneath)back on the new DS (kotaku----****OMG ALL THE AWARDS! GAY=GOLD! *FIREWORKS* What. A . Genius!**... no. The end of the day, an activist managed to tank an IP.
 
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I will try and engage in this because there are things I agree with.

I agree that both TLOU2 and TLJ are definitely auteur creations. They take the existing situation and sacrifice fan service, easy decisions and conventional plot formalities in favour of a strong original story with intent and high-concept ideas. Making a Star Wars movie into an everyone-miserably-fails-and-learns-from-it movie was a huge risk. Making TLOU2 instead of Joel and Ellie romp into a tale of revenge and pain is a huge creative risk as well. To me it only elevates these works as striking way above the genre, where the audience expects to munch popcorn and safe entertainment. I can't help but applaud the effort.

However, I do think that Star Wars mostly suffered not because of TLJ but because a) Solo came out too soon after TLJ b) JJ Abrams can't write a good ending to a story so making him come back and instead of following on TLJ good ideas to completely reinvent the story and make fake concessions to deluded "fanboys" was a terrible decision. I think that Druckmann should not give an inch to the mob on TLOU3 and find another topic to investigate through this post-apocalyptic world and its morally corrupt characters. That's what a great series deserves. I'll be there day 1.
Google this, "how the last jedi was written poorly", then after reading and watching the videos, come back in a few weeks.
 

Amiga

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Jul 8, 2020
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The current Star Wars franchise is in crisis. It is rumored that Disney is going to completely disregard the sequel trilogy and reboot the story, basically nullifying three major movies in their franchise. This extreme measure can arguably traced back to The Last Jedi. While the film was incredibly polarizing to fans, it still pulled in over a billion dollars at the box office. It seems as if those miffed fans took revenge on the next SW film with Solo - it was the first SW film to actually lose money. Lucasfilm tried to course correct with RoS but it wasn’t enough - the damage was done and it probably started with TLJ.

People often compare TLJ with TLOU2 - both narratives took radical departures with beloved characters and thus caused a division within the fandom. And, both titles made a considerable amount of money. However, Star Wars is no longer under the helm of George Lucas. Star Wars productions are now very much create by committee affairs. While Kathleen Kennedy is ostensibly in charge, she didn’t create the franchise and even her tenure is in question. TLOU2 is very much Neil Druckmann’s creation.

Druckmann considers himself an auteur. The polarizing reaction of TLOU2 only solidifies the artistic merit if the game. The fact that it sold so well only validates his decisions. If ND were to make TLOU3, there wouldn’t be much of a change - Druckmann would make a few concessions here and there to throw fans a bone but he wouldn’t be financially compelled to address fan complaints. In fact, he may well be satisfied if the potential third game had disappointing sales, if were able to make the game his way. He’d just move on to another project.

Do you respect Druckmann enough as a game designer to purchase a TLOU3 if he made those superficial changes? If you really dislike TLOU2, then in his mind the series is not for you. I’m not advocating a boycott of the game. This is how an auteur thinks. He views himself an artist and in his mind an artist is supposed to be controversial.

Is there enough in a Neil Druckmann game for you to overlook the criticism and support his work financially?

NB: I am not a fan of Druckmann’s work. I started a thread specifically asking if UC4 was more a Druckmann or Hennig game because of that. But the financial and critically success of TLOU2, he’s here to stay.

If a product sells under projections then it lost money, Star Wars lost money, TLOU2 lost money.

Bioshock Infinite revenue was over twice the budget but the studio was downsized because it didn't bring in the projected revenue.
 
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SlimeGooGoo

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He views himself an artist and in his mind an artist is supposed to be controversial.
See, this is the problem with these type of people.
They put themselves above their audience. They put their own entertainment above their audience's entertainment.

People like Cuckman value more the attention of doing something controversial than the attention for doing something actually good for their audience, you know, something fun and entertaining.

This is why people like Shigeru Miyamoto will be remembered and people like Cuckman forgotten.
 

Clear

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Feb 2, 2009
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Its funny, when was that thread out up about people feeling bored and jaded by most of the upcoming releases? Couple of days ago.

Yet when someone actually tries to challenge expectations, as Druckmann did with TLOU2, a lot of people throw their toys out of the pram because its not season 2 of the Joel and Ellie show...

Divisive is good. Its an antidote to bland "product" where every sharp edge is ground down to a nub to avoid upsetting some group or other.
 
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I completely agree with you, OP. Sadly, be ready for more handicapped experiences suffering from having to include token characters and the dominant political philosophy of today. I hope Chinese AAA gaming market picks up after Wukong; it would be a breath of fresh air in my view.
 

Vanitymachine

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Aug 24, 2019
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Druckmann is literally the exact opposite of an auteur. An auteur has a strong individual style that is distinct from most other works. Druckmann on the other hand just copies what's currently en vogue.
The Last of Us 2 is a compilation of all of the mainstream themes, ideas and "agitprop" that are currently omnipresent in almost all works. Even tonally and thematically he just copies the currently trendy "austere grimness' that has been the norm in every arthouse movie since about 2010.
 

Bartski

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Ona curious note, advanced searching gaf by thread name for "last of us 2" and "tlou2" - 114 threads total since 01.01.2020. GG
 

tsumake

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I think some people have made good posts for and against TLOU2, even TLJ.

From an academic standpoint one can quibble about what an auteur is, but I do think Druckmann considers himself to be one. And there are good auteurs and bad auteurs - Ed Wood comes to mind.


Ona curious note, advanced searching gaf by thread name for "last of us 2" and "tlou2" - 114 threads total since 01.01.2020. GG

Well, you can certainly say the game was provocative at the very least.
 
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Umbral

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The current Star Wars franchise is in crisis. It is rumored that Disney is going to completely disregard the sequel trilogy and reboot the story, basically nullifying three major movies in their franchise. This extreme measure can arguably traced back to The Last Jedi. While the film was incredibly polarizing to fans, it still pulled in over a billion dollars at the box office. It seems as if those miffed fans took revenge on the next SW film with Solo - it was the first SW film to actually lose money. Lucasfilm tried to course correct with RoS but it wasn’t enough - the damage was done and it probably started with TLJ.

People often compare TLJ with TLOU2 - both narratives took radical departures with beloved characters and thus caused a division within the fandom. And, both titles made a considerable amount of money. However, Star Wars is no longer under the helm of George Lucas. Star Wars productions are now very much create by committee affairs. While Kathleen Kennedy is ostensibly in charge, she didn’t create the franchise and even her tenure is in question. TLOU2 is very much Neil Druckmann’s creation.

Druckmann considers himself an auteur. The polarizing reaction of TLOU2 only solidifies the artistic merit if the game. The fact that it sold so well only validates his decisions. If ND were to make TLOU3, there wouldn’t be much of a change - Druckmann would make a few concessions here and there to throw fans a bone but he wouldn’t be financially compelled to address fan complaints. In fact, he may well be satisfied if the potential third game had disappointing sales, if were able to make the game his way. He’d just move on to another project.

Do you respect Druckmann enough as a game designer to purchase a TLOU3 if he made those superficial changes? If you really dislike TLOU2, then in his mind the series is not for you. I’m not advocating a boycott of the game. This is how an auteur thinks. He views himself an artist and in his mind an artist is supposed to be controversial.

Is there enough in a Neil Druckmann game for you to overlook the criticism and support his work financially?

NB: I am not a fan of Druckmann’s work. I started a thread specifically asking if UC4 was more a Druckmann or Hennig game because of that. But the financial and critically success of TLOU2, he’s here to stay.
TLOU3 will be his Solo, if it happens.
 
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sobaka770

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Google this, "how the last jedi was written poorly", then after reading and watching the videos, come back in a few weeks.

Why do you think I haven't absorbed a large volume of views on the subject already including the one you asked me to google? I've seen plenty of "arguments" and they mostly come down to nitpicky or agenda-driven BS with very few solid arguments on why the movie may not appeal to everyone. In fact just like with TLOU2 people skirt the main issue altogether instead going for nitpicking.

The movie itself is expertly written in terms of structure where every character gets a major arc driven by a single idea of learning from failure each converging in a single point (Holdo sacrifice) from which each character grows (or not) in a different way. The fact that this borderline genius structure is overshadowed by things like: woman with pink hair, Canto Bight, Rose and not-my-Luke is frankly saying everything about state of criticism and audience expectations today. Well hey, JJ Abrams did everything what people on the internets wanted - Rey is not a nobody, Rose is gone, pace is way up and I dare you to say it's a better movie in any aspect. I can understand why people don't like TLJ but I would think it at least deserves respect while fan-pandering is not only a path to mediocrity it also deserves none.

It doesn't mean that the movie is perfect, no movie is. Cantho Bight clearly had some rewrites going on because it feels incomplete, humour doesn't always land, some characters were sidelined to make room for the main arcs like Hux becoming a comic-relief and Phasma just sucking like in ep.7.

To be honest the big frustration just like with TLOU2 is that people just don't want to talk about the real reasons why the movie is divisive instead focusing on peripheral surface-level nitpicks worthy of cinemasins garbage, mostly missing the point and focusing on politicised agendas and "bad writing" tropes which are simply not true.

Here's the simple fact: the main reason why TLJ is divisive and why it's compared to TLOU2 is not the woke agenda and bad writing. It is because just like TLOU2 it sacrifices safe plot progression expected from such blockbusters and tries something completely new in an attempt to make a better story with a unique audience-challenging meaning, staying true to characters and universe in spite of fan expectations with full knowledge that it can be divisive. TLOU2 sacrifices Joel who gained mass popularity despite being a quasi-antagonist to walk a player through a journey on personal empathy. In TLJ heroes and villains are capable of making real bad and stupid mistakes because that's how they learn to be better (or not) It actually follows through on how characters were initially designed: Rey was naive, Finn was a Stormtrooper without purpose or plan, Poe was a hotshot pilot, Kylo Ren was driven by supreme anger against everything and Luke had barely any training and actually succumbed to dark side in the end of Episode 6 for a good 20 seconds instead of idealised versions of them. This is almost never done, these topics are rarely seen in blockbusters in such an unsafe way. It's not expected for protagonists to just be wrong and stupid and make stupid mistakes in a hero movie and that causes severe whiplash on first watch. Even though it's exactly the point of the movie, the expectations from Star Wars have been more in line with Marvel entries where character flaws are very safe and don't detract from them being still heroic and flawless in every other aspect while challenges are very safe and easily digestible. I can understand that argument, the argument that it's too unsafe for Star Wars, that maybe it doesn't fit into the saga or modern blockbuster scene (although I'd argue that ESB also did some crazy shit to beloved characters in its heyday killing off Solo for 3 years) and emotional dissonance it creates that make a lot of people not like the movie. I can understand people not wanting Finn to be an idiot for going on a mission with 0% success chance and getting conned because he knows nothing of life, I understand people not willing to see Luke still struggling against dark side as any Jedi, I understand people not willing to see Poe just being out of line as he doesn't understand command, Rey being supremely naive and Kylo Ren being emotionally unhinged. It's jarring. It's not what a heroic movie should be. But it has nothing to do with writing or SJW agenda or "pacing issues" these are strawman easy arguments for charged conversations about nothing. TLJ was simply designed that way and while the design may not appeal to everyone, it's almost flawless for what it attempts to be and as someone who enjoys movies and writing I don't need a Youtube armchair analyst to teach me.
 
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Neff

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Druckmann is literally the exact opposite of an auteur.

He doesn't qualify as an auteur in game directing imo, his works are basically bolted together from numerous other video games released over the last 15 years or so, particularly Resident Evil and MGS. That said, his writing does have a distinct voice, and the way he directs his actors is distinctive, even if again, he's basically just recycling plots from his favourite in vogue movies and TV shows.

He's a very good director of games, he understands what makes them work. But I think he's already been 'Kojima-fied' in the way his talent for assembling the skeleton of a game gets overlooked in favour of praising the narrative. And like Kojima, that's mainly his own fault for including so much of it.

Making a Star Wars movie into an everyone-miserably-fails-and-learns-from-it movie was a huge risk.

What you just described is more or less every movie ever. The trick is to try to make characters fail in a way audiences can empathise with and relate to, as opposed to look down on and mock, as they did with TLJ's cast of morons.
 
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tsumake

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He doesn't qualify as an auteur in game directing imo, his works are basically bolted together from numerous other video games released over the last 15 years or so, particularly Resident Evil and MGS. That said, his writing does have a distinct voice, and the way he directs his actors is distinctive, even if again, he's basically just recycling plots from his favourite in vogue movies and TV shows.

Hmm. A lot of auteurs don’t really pay attention to what’s in vogue. It doesn’t necessarily mean that those who do are derivative, but the ones who separate themselves from the fashion of day tend to be the most original.
 

MiguelItUp

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Feb 24, 2015
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If you don't like it, you don't like it, if you like it, you like it. I'm just over TLOU2 threads period at this point, personally. I understand fans creating threads to praise or discuss it, I don't understand those that didn't creating threads giving it more attention. If you don't like it, ignore it, let it die, etc.
 
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Why do you think I haven't absorbed a large volume of views on the subject already including the one you asked me to google? I've seen plenty of "arguments" and they mostly come down to nitpicky or agenda-driven BS with very few solid arguments on why the movie may not appeal to everyone. In fact just like with TLOU2 people skirt the main issue altogether instead going for nitpicking.

The movie itself is expertly written in terms of structure where every character gets a major arc driven by a single idea of learning from failure each converging in a single point (Holdo sacrifice) from which each character grows (or not) in a different way. The fact that this borderline genius structure is overshadowed by things like: woman with pink hair, Canto Bight, Rose and not-my-Luke is frankly saying everything about state of criticism and audience expectations today. Well hey, JJ Abrams did everything what people on the internets wanted - Rey is not a nobody, Rose is gone, pace is way up and I dare you to say it's a better movie in any aspect. I can understand why people don't like TLJ but I would think it at least deserves respect while fan-pandering is not only a path to mediocrity it also deserves none.

It doesn't mean that the movie is perfect, no movie is. Cantho Bight clearly had some rewrites going on because it feels incomplete, humour doesn't always land, some characters were sidelined to make room for the main arcs like Hux becoming a comic-relief and Phasma just sucking like in ep.7.

To be honest the big frustration just like with TLOU2 is that people just don't want to talk about the real reasons why the movie is divisive instead focusing on peripheral surface-level nitpicks worthy of cinemasins garbage, mostly missing the point and focusing on politicised agendas and "bad writing" tropes which are simply not true.

Here's the simple fact: the main reason why TLJ is divisive and why it's compared to TLOU2 is not the woke agenda and bad writing. It is because just like TLOU2 it sacrifices safe plot progression expected from such blockbusters and tries something completely new in an attempt to make a better story with a unique audience-challenging meaning, staying true to characters and universe in spite of fan expectations with full knowledge that it can be divisive. TLOU2 sacrifices Joel who gained mass popularity despite being a quasi-antagonist to walk a player through a journey on personal empathy. In TLJ heroes and villains are capable of making real bad and stupid mistakes because that's how they learn to be better (or not) It actually follows through on how characters were initially designed: Rey was naive, Finn was a Stormtrooper without purpose or plan, Poe was a hotshot pilot, Kylo Ren was driven by supreme anger against everything and Luke had barely any training and actually succumbed to dark side in the end of Episode 6 for a good 20 seconds instead of idealised versions of them. This is almost never done, these topics are rarely seen in blockbusters in such an unsafe way. It's not expected for protagonists to just be wrong and stupid and make stupid mistakes in a hero movie and that causes severe whiplash on first watch. Even though it's exactly the point of the movie, the expectations from Star Wars have been more in line with Marvel entries where character flaws are very safe and don't detract from them being still heroic and flawless in every other aspect while challenges are very safe and easily digestible. I can understand that argument, the argument that it's too unsafe for Star Wars, that maybe it doesn't fit into the saga or modern blockbuster scene (although I'd argue that ESB also did some crazy shit to beloved characters in its heyday killing off Solo for 3 years) and emotional dissonance it creates that make a lot of people not like the movie. I can understand people not wanting Finn to be an idiot for going on a mission with 0% success chance and getting conned because he knows nothing of life, I understand people not willing to see Luke still struggling against dark side as any Jedi, I understand people not willing to see Poe just being out of line as he doesn't understand command, Rey being supremely naive and Kylo Ren being emotionally unhinged. It's jarring. It's not what a heroic movie should be. But it has nothing to do with writing or SJW agenda or "pacing issues" these are strawman easy arguments for charged conversations about nothing. TLJ was simply designed that way and while the design may not appeal to everyone, it's almost flawless for what it attempts to be and as someone who enjoys movies and writing I don't need a Youtube armchair analyst to teach me.
All they did for TLJ was ignore Luke's growth in the original films to turn it into their own message. That message had nothing to do with what happened previously. His character wasn't grown in a new path, it was subverted. Very cheap and doesn't take any amount of intelligence to pull off. The only way it would make sense to save it is to make it alt-dimension Luke. Basically, not Luke. If you didn't think Vice Admiral Gender Studies Holo wasn't sjw bs, then you're just trolling. Good on you.

"The movie itself is expertly written in terms of structure where every character gets a major arc driven by a single idea of learning from failure each converging in a single point" LOL Okay. This one is important now, I want you to tell me what Finn's arc and resolution was, then I'm going to destroy your argument after you answer...
 
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sobaka770

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All they did for TLJ was ignore Luke's growth in the original films to turn it into their own message. That message had nothing to do with what happened previously. His character wasn't grown in a new path, it was subverted. Very cheap and doesn't take any amount of intelligence to pull off. The only way it would make sense to save it is to make it alt-dimension Luke. Basically, not Luke. If you didn't think Vice Admiral Gender Studies Holo wasn't sjw bs, then you're just trolling. Good on you.

"The movie itself is expertly written in terms of structure where every character gets a major arc driven by a single idea of learning from failure each converging in a single point" LOL Okay. This one is important now, I want you to tell me what Finn's arc and resolution was, then I'm going to destroy your argument after you answer...

I highly doubt that considering you totally think that Luke's arc was discarded as if he became a messiah by renouncing the dark side once after actually succimbing to it...

Finn's story is actually a double arc: to go from running away and hiding and not caring to standing up and fighting for positive cause and going from deriving drive from hatred to deriving drive from loving something (i.e. fighting for something not just against something). At the end of episode 7 he doesn't care about anyone but Poe and Ray, his goal was to run from First Order which he hates and he only helps the Resistance basically because their goals align in the moment as he wanted to save Rey. After that he is in a coma. He never had friends outside of his stormtrooper brainwashing so Poe and Rey are his first genuine connections and only people he cares about. Seeing as First Order is about to wipe out the Resistance at the beginning of TLJ he doesn't care to help instead willing to just run off and find Rey whom he presumably has strong feelings for but he is too naive to understand. Finn is extremely naive because all his life was basically an indocrination. So after being busted by Rose at the escape pod and trying to help Poe and Rey he agrees to a hail Mary mission to save everyone because it would help his friends and he has not much other choice anyway.

During the mission he is accompanied by Rose (who is basically a low-level resistance member who embodies the traits of what the Resistance is). Finn finds out that Rose is highly ideological - she cares for the children, downtrodded, war profiteering, animal abuse. She shows Finn that the world is not what it seems on the surface (challenging his naivety) and that if you don't take a side, if you don't have a cause for fighting then it's not worth doing anything - meaning comes from cause. Moreover she tries to tell him that the cause is not just hatred and destruction - Finn was happy to trample the city after seeing how bad the people there were but Rose is not truly satisfied until animals are freed, a gesture of preservation. Shortly after they are joined by the alt-Codebreaker who tells Finn somewhat of a similar thing - that the world is complicated and more than what it looks like on the surface but the true freedom comes from not choosing sides and just profiteering - a completely different outlook. As Finn is literally a blank slate at the beginning, purposeless and without direction, he is presented with two conflicting ways of life that he can choose.

The codebreaker however betrays Finn and Rose because Finn is too naive to recognise that somebody who just doesn't fight for anything would go for people who will pay more. A lot of people die because of that, because Finn put his trust in an amoral man. Finn realises that not taking sides is not moral, he regains his sense of morality through these experiences which is more than his attachment to people. However in his newfound fervor he is still driven by hatred of First Order most of all, so when he is saved by Rose from pointless suicide because he doesn't want FO to win (pure antagonism) and reminded that the true cause is saving what they love (cause to fight for) is his arc complete and what Resistance is about. He realises that Rose would give her life as he would but while his death would be out of hatred and destruction hers is out of love and preservation and she's willing to give her life for that. That sacrifice and betrayal of codebreaker shows Finn the reason to fight for Resistance because they are morally in the right.

So, to cut it short, his arc is basically his induction into being a fully fledged Resistance fighter from just a rogue Stormtrooper on the run. He learned from his failure the value of morals and through his experience with Rose the value of building/preserving something vs destroying.
 
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Sticking to the Star Wars analogy, maybe it'll be like the blowback Phantom Menace received and then Lucas was like "okay next film will have more action and less Jar-Jar" and then that film still got backlash so he was like "alright, bitches, hardcore tragedy time."
 
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So bored of the Star Wars comparisons any time there's a media upset. The Last Jedi isn't good but what it was trying to do was good, the execution was poor but the ideas were good. The Last of Us Part II is a clear cut above the original game. The first game is just daddy/daughter simulator with stiff character movement and some zombies thrown in there, nothing remotely fresh or interesting.

I think TLOU3 should happen but needs to be shorter and more straight forward because the second game was a massive risk and a pleb filter.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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So bored of the Star Wars comparisons any time there's a media upset. The Last Jedi isn't good but what it was trying to do was good, the execution was poor but the ideas were good. The Last of Us Part II is a clear cut above the original game. The first game is just daddy/daughter simulator with stiff character movement and some zombies thrown in there, nothing remotely fresh or interesting.

I think TLOU3 should happen but needs to be shorter and more straight forward because the second game was a massive risk and a pleb filter.

For me I agree with you on TLOU's story to an extent but the ending for me pushed it over the edge. As much as I enjoyed the budding relationship between father and surrogate daughter it wouldn't have made my top stories until the dilemma the last segment provided. I think part of the problem with how TLOU II is perceived is because many people didn't view what happened at the end of TLOU 1 as being morally grey at all, the nuance wasn't there for them so how things go down in the sequel don't feel like they have justification, they can't even sympathize with the position of say
Abby, because to them her father was pure evil
. When Star Wars decided to go deconstructionist it's easier to empathize with people not caring for that because it wasn't something Star Wars was known for prior, but with TLOU it feels like many people missed most of the ideas/themes being pushed by the first to believe the direction of the second was anywhere near TLJ.
 

Keihart

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If a product sells under projections then it lost money, Star Wars lost money, TLOU2 lost money.

Bioshock Infinite revenue was over twice the budget but the studio was downsized because it didn't bring in the projected revenue.
Sony games success it's kinda different, although i don't know what expectations were there in place for TLoU2, almost every game of WWS was considered a success as long as it had critical success and good enough sales, as in breaking even mostly. No idea if WWS is gonna continue that road having new management and all tho.
 

kingpotato

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The Last of Us 2 makes you end up not liking any of the remaining characters.

Except maybe the two children (Scar and Jesse's baby)

It's not that the story in LoU2 had any of the characters do anything that didn't make sense. The characters were true to themselves and what we know about them from the first game (if anything), but in doing so and with the

death of Joel

most people lost their emotional connection. The gameplay mechanics and world building are still top notch. I would definitely play another LoU if there was a new story to tell with other characters, but I'm not really interested in any of the remaining cast from the second game, which I really enjoyed.

Star Wars TLJ had a different problem. The series had already started to tread way too heavily into relying on nostalgia and stale patterns to carry the story forward. Then Rian comes in and tries to break that pattern. Unfortunately for everyone, he didn't respect the core characters and made a bunch of changes to the characters that are downright inexplicable. The other sin Rian committed was not moving the story along. The following star wars basically could start were the episode VII ended with one extra sentence added to the opening crawl.

Why do people feel the need to tie these two together?
 
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Kadayi

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TLOU2 is a mechanistically tight but narratively flawed follow up to a well-regarded game, whereas TLJ is a shitshow sequel to one of the most creatively bankrupt films to ever see the light of day. The Rot didn't start with Rian Johnson, it started with JJ Abrams and his inability to come up with wholly original ideas versus shit out a rote inferior remix with a twist once the cheque has cleared.
 
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FunkMiller

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Oh look... a... another Last Of Us 2 thread.




....just yanking you chain OP. It a decent idea to talk about auteur theory when it comes to Druckmann.

I don’t have the strength to discuss this game any more, but more power to those that do and get a kick out of critiquing the way Druckmann works.

Spoiler for TLOU3 though: he won’t be doing it on his own again.

He’s like Zack Snyder - ambition outweighs talent a fair amount of the time. He needs to have someone working with him to keep him in check.
 
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Vanitymachine

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He doesn't qualify as an auteur in game directing imo, his works are basically bolted together from numerous other video games released over the last 15 years or so, particularly Resident Evil and MGS. That said, his writing does have a distinct voice, and the way he directs his actors is distinctive, even if again, he's basically just recycling plots from his favourite in vogue movies and TV shows.

He's a very good director of games, he understands what makes them work. But I think he's already been 'Kojima-fied' in the way his talent for assembling the skeleton of a game gets overlooked in favour of praising the narrative. And like Kojima, that's mainly his own fault for including so much of it.



What you just described is more or less every movie ever. The trick is to try to make characters fail in a way audiences can empathise with and relate to, as opposed to look down on and mock, as they did with TLJ's cast of morons.
I think Kojima qualifies as a real auteur. His games are immediately recognizable for better or worse, depending on your tastes. The thing that makes Druckmann's game's identifiable isn't his writing or cinematic style, it's the quality of Naughty Dog's developers.
Druckmann could easily be replaced with any other depressed film student and Naughty Dog games would still probably have a similar vibe and cinematic quality. If you removed Kojima from a project though, the game would probably turn out drastically different and you would notice his absence.
 
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Neff

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I think Kojima qualifies as a real auteur.

Yeah I think so. He strives for something unique and always has done. And there are enough signature elements in the raw nuts and bolts aspect of his games to qualify as a true game director auteur.

Druckmann could easily be replaced with any other depressed film student

I don't agree with this though. I think there's enough of Druckmann's talent on show to demonstrate his value as a director. He's by far the best director ND has ever had due to his games representing the best of their output. Like I said though, he's no auteur because he simply doesn't have enough of a strong, stand-out signature.
 

ShadowWolf712

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I think you're way overthinking a video game. If you don't like it, don't play it. 's what I did.

EDIT: I will say this though; Druckmann, to his credit, did NOT go after people as fake fans or inherently racist/sexist for not liking it. I saw a lot of his fans and defenders take that road, but Neill himself didn't, at least based on what I've seen. In fact, he was wholly prepared for people to hate it and made peace with it. That's... not something I can say for Lucasfilm or Rian Johnson.
 
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It's fine if he considers himself an auteur, and writes stories he finds challenging or otherwise interesting. I'm just not sure it's smart to entirely transform existing franchises to fit this new vision. The problem is, that he probably considered that aspect to be one of the most important ones. Subverting expectations and doing something entirely different to shock fans was all by design. That's why (some) people are angry at the game, because they didn't get the vanilla ice cream that was clearlry promised on the packet. And can you really blame them? It's an interesting experiment (to him anyway) but the player ends up feeling betrayed. It's also kinda cheap.
 
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I think Kojima qualifies as a real auteur. His games are immediately recognizable for better or worse, depending on your tastes. The thing that makes Druckmann's game's identifiable isn't his writing or cinematic style, it's the quality of Naughty Dog's developers.
Druckmann could easily be replaced with any other depressed film student and Naughty Dog games would still probably have a similar vibe and cinematic quality. If you removed Kojima from a project though, the game would probably turn out drastically different and you would notice his absence.
Exactly, any good writer/director will succeed in Naughty Dogs.
Naughty dogs is more about the sum of talent around who are capable of bringing anyones vision into life.