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Balancing clocks for max power draw is a different animal than variable clock throttling

Aidah

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Still amused at the people who where trying to convince themselves that variable frequencies between CPU and GPU were better than having fixed ones.

It’s a compromise, not and advantage.
If it's getting more performance out of the same silicone without much added headache, then it's obviously better than having fixed clocks with a lower average performance from the same silicone.
 

tryDEATH

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Whats the point he is making? So its not positive?
No, its not positive at all, I mean its a laptop technology in a system that is supposed to be a high end console. People were spinning this negative to an absurd amount with some absolutely ridiculous theories. You had people claiming that consoles don't really run at max power and that SmartShift wouldn't have any real bad side effects on performance and that it was somehow superior to the Series X approach, which was hilarious

Why else does PS4's sound like a jet engine, its because they run at max power, because that is the advantage of consoles where developers literally squeeze every ounce out of systems and why games look much better on the console compared to their equivalent PC parts due to maximum optimization.

The gap is going to be much bigger than the quoted 10.2TF vs 12.1TF and with the core counts too, performance is going to be something PS5 is going to struggle with next generation.
 
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We already know from the hardware presentation that it's not based on temperature but instead on power draw and therefore predictable and consistent. This isn't news.

Some of these replies... work on your comprehension.
I get that part. The fans will spin faster based on power draw.

But what I dont get is isn't temperature an added concern on top of power draw? Using max power = spinning fast, using max power + hot room = PS4 jet engine semi truck Harley Davidson NASCAR levels of noise.
 

Thugnificient

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I get that part. The fans will spin faster based on power draw.

But what I dont get is isn't temperature an added concern on top of power draw? Using max power = spinning fast, using max power + hot room = PS4 jet engine semi truck Harley Davidson NASCAR levels of noise.
Presumably, because the cooling solution is good enough to make temps a non-factor.
 

geordiemp

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If that were true, everybody would use variable clocks.
Well, everyone does now except Microsoft.

Apple, Nvidia, AMD they are just controled differently using thermals, predicting thermals based on impeding workload can be more efficient and also quicker.

Sony are doing it, more will follow if its performant,

No, its not positive at all, I mean its a laptop technology in a system that is supposed to be a high end console. People were spinning this negative to an absurd amount with some absolutely ridiculous theories. You had people claiming that consoles don't really run at max power and that SmartShift wouldn't have any real bad side effects on performance and that it was somehow superior to the Series X approach, which was hilarious

Why else does PS4's sound like a jet engine, its because they run at max power, because that is the advantage of consoles where developers literally squeeze every ounce out of systems and why games look much better on the console compared to their equivalent PC parts due to maximum optimization.

The gap is going to be much bigger than the quoted 10.2TF vs 12.1TF and with the core counts too, heat and performance is going to be something PS5 is going to struggle with next generation.
You realise that smart short is different to controlling in advance on workload ratrher than PID of temperature.

I dont know why I bother, you keep spreading the FUD

Smartshift is a different tech (Cpu to GPU power) to the ps5 power control (dropping frequency in advance on edge case workloads a bit like programs used to heat GPUs), there are 2 different things,
 
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Aidah

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If that were true, everybody would use variable clocks.
New ways of doing things get invented all the time. This solution was developed to fit the console use case, where 100% consistent performance between different units of the same device is a must. Other devices like PCs or phones have variable clocks but don't have this requirement, so they can just use thermal based variable clocks, although AMD does use at least some of the ideas in their recent APUs to improve overall consistency and performance (like smart shift).

Whether this new idea works out well or not will be put to the test, so we'll eventually find out if it was a good idea or not. It makes a lot of sense if you actually understand the reasoning behind it and sounds great on paper, but it's hard to predict every potential issue that might arise when put to a large scale test.

Obviously I hope it works out well, because who wouldn't want a new idea that can potentially get more performance from the same silicone to not work out, that would just be stupid.
 
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geordiemp

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No, everybody has some version of it, but not everybody is using it in all their hardware.

And it will ever be a compromise. Having the clocks fixed will always perform better.
No they do not. Nobody runs at a clock and downloclocks in advance of problem workloads.

Others use thermals and PID loops and boosts on thermals. Google it and try and learn something, anything would be a blessing..

You have no idea what your talking about , and yes you know nothing.

Do you even know what the tweet was saying, you dont have a clue do you :messenger_beaming:.

https://benchmark.unigine.com/heaven - some code can push any GPU,

Ps5 just recognises it and downclocks a little in advance. Its smart. Why anyone would want a game to run heat generating virus code is the understanding. iF you can run such instances slower, thats cmart, why wait for thermals to go slilly.........., hence you can clock most of the time higher for normal game code.

The tweet was giving clues on how the frequency is determined......and he is implying it works nicely.
 
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tryDEATH

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Well, everyone does now except Microsoft.

Apple, Nvidia, AMD they are just controled differently using thermals, predicting thermals based on impeding workload can be more efficient and also quicker.

Sony are doing it, more will follow if its performant,



You realise that smart short is different to controlling in advance on workload ratrher than PID of temperature.

I dont know why I bother, you keep spreading the FUD

Smartshift is a different tech (Cpu to GPU power) to the ps5 power control (dropping frequency in advance on edge case workloads a bit like programs used to heat GPUs), there are 2 different things,
Maybe, you should stop spreading FUD.

SmartShift dictates power of CPU/GPU, but also temps as it controls the overall limitations of chasis temperature.

 

Jon Neu

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No they do not. Nobody runs at a clock and downloclocks in advance of problem workloads.

Others use thermals and PID loops and boosts on thermals. Google it and try and learn something, anything would be a blessing..

You have no idea what your talking about , and yes you know nothing.
Another silly personal attack for not following the official Sony narrative™.

Look at for example the next gen thread and ask yourself why is basically a Sony PR thread without any user daring to contradict any of the narratives because they are afraid of being dogpiled.

It’s harder and harder to talk about anything Sony related in this forum.
 

geordiemp

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Maybe, you should stop spreading FUD.

SmartShift dictates power of CPU/GPU, but also temps as it controls the overall limitations of chasis temperature.

Yes that is standard smart shift for laptops shifting power from CPU to GPU every 2 ms.

Now go read Cernys ps5 implementation, its different that that applied to laptops, they are controlling clocks that stay most of the time at 2.23 Ghz and drop in ADVANCE of workloads that are known in advance to be an issue.

PREDICTIVE Clocks on workload, that is new.

He gave an example menu screens uncapped frame rates. Do you know how heat generating programs work ?


You are spreading FUD.

Another silly personal attack for not following the official Sony narrative™.

Look at for example the next gen thread and ask yourself why is basically a Sony PR thread without any user daring to contradict any of the narratives because they are afraid of being dogpiled.

It’s harder and harder to talk about anything Sony related in this forum.
Your trolling, what do you want to discuss, the PID for predictive control, the rate of frequency change, what types of code used in gPU heat generating software and how it is recognised ?

Comment on something, make a valid input, some insight, anything,......
 
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lastmessiah

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Another silly personal attack for not following the official Sony narrative™.

Look at for example the next gen thread and ask yourself why is basically a Sony PR thread without any user daring to contradict any of the narratives because they are afraid of being dogpiled.

It’s harder and harder to talk about anything Sony related in this forum.
Just wait until the DF breakdowns 🤣
 
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Max is saying the exact opposite of what you wrote thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best hope you have already come to that conclusion
Devkits have fixed clocks so that devs have no extra work optimizing for the game _ we know this since ps5 reveal in March, and also that there is custom hardware, the Power Control Unit, managing the intire process.
Next time do some research before the wall of text.
That's called an upsell, and read a book before complaining about a few paragraphs xD.
 
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geordiemp

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The tweet was

Predictably balancing clocks for max power draw is a different animal.

Matt is saying its not heat based and not reactive, and said its very different. No different to what Cerny said.

And we have a full discord of timdogs in here as they saw ps5 variable clocks and came to troll.


Is everyone that stupid ? Really ?
 
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loktaiextatus

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How did ANYONE take away anything about thermal throttling from this tweet? He is literally saying the variable clocks everyone is used to isnt the same thing as what the PS5 has, going as far as to call it a "different animal". . . He is saying it doesn't thermally throttle but as usual... people with an agenda magically lose the ability to READ or compare what he said to what Cerny said and understand they said the same thing with this guy clarifying because people didnt understand it the first time (people with an agenda pretended not to understand anyway). No downclocking in hot rooms CONFIRMED., Predictable per-situation clocks CONFIRMED.
 

loktaiextatus

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Whether the PS5 APU is variable based on temperature or power draw, can we all agree on one thing?

12 Sustained Tflops > 9 - 10 Variable Tflops
Yep. Way better. on the order of 15-20 percent better.... half the gap of the PS4 Pro and Xbox one X better. And all that at only a 50% drop in I/O speed!

And we all know how the One X WIPED THE FLOOR with the PS4 Pro at retail.. and in exclusives.... Man there are a SHITLOAD of Xbox one X games better looking than God of war or the last of us 2 for sure.
 
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Jon Neu

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clocks that stay most of the time at 2.23 Ghz and drop
So it’a a compromise and it will always perform worse than the same clocks but fixed, which is what I said.

And it’s literally by definition what it is, despite you trying to move the goalposts.


For someone who likes to brag about being so tech educated and who uses that as a weapon against others, it’s funny that you don’t know the difference between your and you’re.

Mind you, my english grammar is not that great neither, but at least I don’t attack other people on the basis that they know nothing and then proceed to write like someone who hasn’t even graduated from elementary.

Whether the PS5 APU is variable based on temperature or power draw, can we all agree on one thing?

12 Sustained Tflops > 9 - 10 Variable Tflops
Oh my sweet summer child...

Run while you can.
 

Shin

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Nah, it’s 10.3 most of the time. We don’t know what it downclocks to. No need to call it a 9tf system.
You have a PS5 to make such claim or do you believe every spokes person are actually honest or have been through history, especially with Sony's history?
Heat > throttle down > performance affected >teraflops down, instead of people worrying about the console performance they better worry about the fucking heat.
Because what they will essentially shorten the console's lifespan, there's no damn way they could cover every scenario it's impossible as they don't know the variable of everyone's house/temperature.

I can't help but feel this ominous cloud hovering over this console and all these fucking threads and posts aren't helping matters only making them worse.
They went this route because of the cost savings on the die size, Sony has been acting like they are starving to death in recent years (more so than they've ever had in the past).
If you care about the company or even follow their closely you'd take notice of it, somewhere down the road (give or take 2-3 years back) it's been really weird in that camp.
 
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geordiemp

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Whether the PS5 APU is variable based on temperature or power draw, can we all agree on one thing?

12 Sustained Tflops > 9 - 10 Variable Tflops
Theoretical based on RDNA1 mumbers, we dont have ROPS yet and all numbers are max potential including TF.

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second
 

tryDEATH

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Yes that is standard smart shift for laptops shifting power from CPU to GPU every 2 ms.

Now go read Cernys ps5 implementation, its different that that applied to laptops, they are controlling clocks that stay most of the time at 2.23 Ghz and drop in ADVANCE of workloads that are known in advance to be an issue.

PREDICTIVE Clocks on workload, that is new.

He gave an example menu screens uncapped frame rates. Do you know how heat generating programs work ?


You are spreading FUD.
There is a clear example of how thee tech works and how its it intended to work for PS5. Adding other work parameter adjustments isn't going to change the technologies main function, which is to shift performance in accordance to workload and temperature limitations.

Stop spinning FUD, SmartShift in the PS5 is a compromise not an advancement.
 

loktaiextatus

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You have a PS5 to make such claim or do you believe every spokes person are actually honest or have been through history, especially with Sony's history?
Heat > throttle down > performance affected >teraflops down, instead of people worrying about the console performance they better worry about the fucking heat.
Because what they will essentially shorten the console's lifespan, there's no damn way they could cover every scenario it's impossible as they don't know the variable of everyone's house/temperature.

I can't help but feel this ominous cloud hovering over this console and all these fucking threads and posts aren't helping matters only making them worse.
They went this route because of the cost savings on the die size, Sony has been acting like they are starving to death in recent years (more so than they've ever had in the past).
If you care about the company or even follow their closely you'd take notice of it, somewhere down the road (give or take 2-3 years back) it's been really weird in that camp.
This tweet is the 2nd person in-the-know after the system architect himself saying that heat isnt what dictates the clock.... but here you are... repeating this FUD again.
You do not want to hear it. I get it. But can you re-read this and confirm you understand the tweet?
 

geordiemp

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There is a clear example of how thee tech works and how its it intended to work for PS5. Adding other work parameter adjustments isn't going to change the technologies main function, which is to shift performance in accordance to workload and temperature limitations.

Stop spinning FUD, SmartShift in the PS5 is a compromise not an advancement.
No, read the tweet POST 1 in the thread your in, try reading. Read it twice, then read it again.

Its predictive frequency control on workload - Cerny talked about it, 2 % drop in frequency in advance of edge case code.

The other tech is smartshift apu transfer which is not even the topic of the tweet.
 
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Shin

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This tweet is the 2nd person in-the-know after the system architect himself saying that heat isnt what dictates the clock.... but here you are... repeating this FUD again.
You do not want to hear it. I get it. But can you re-read this and confirm you understand the tweet?
Like you did, within 0.2 seconds of me posting (actual time of creation vs posting is different)?
Yeah talk about reading, maybe you should take your own advice and try it first.
The defense was too fast "bruh".
 
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Yep. Way better. on the order of 15-20 percent better.... half the gap of the PS4 Pro and Xbox one X better. And all that at only a 50% drop in I/O speed!

And we all know how the One X WIPED THE FLOOR with the PS4 Pro at retail.. and in exclusives.... Man there are a SHITLOAD of Xbox one X games better looking than God of war or the last of us 2 for sure.
Oof, I didn't know stating a basic arithmetic fact on this forum would cause so much ire.
 

GHG

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This tweet is bait with the way it's worded.

Poor guys didn't stand a chance.
 

Lone Wolf

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You have a PS5 to make such claim or do you believe every spokes person are actually honest or have been through history, especially with Sony's history?
Heat > throttle down > performance affected >teraflops down, instead of people worrying about the console performance they better worry about the fucking heat.
Because what they will essentially shorten the console's lifespan, there's no damn way they could cover every scenario it's impossible as they don't know the variable of everyone's house/temperature.

I can't help but feel this ominous cloud hovering over this console and all these fucking threads and posts aren't helping matters only making them worse.
They went this route because of the cost savings on the die size, Sony has been acting like they are starving to death in recent years (more so than they've ever had in the past).
If you care about the company or even follow their closely you'd take notice of it, somewhere down the road (give or take 2-3 years back) it's been really weird in that camp.
I honestly have no idea, but I would trust the architect of the system when it comes to how it works. Perhaps we will learn when we see the system at release. I’m an Xbox first guy,(stupid Halo) but I’m no PS hater. Good games are good games.
 

loktaiextatus

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Like you did, within 0.2 seconds of me posting (actual time of creation vs posting is different)?
Yeah talk about reading, maybe you should take your own advice and try it first.
The defense was too fast "bruh".
What does this reply even mean?

You post this " Heat > throttle down > performance affected >teraflops down, instead of people worrying about the console performance they better worry about the fucking heat. "

Its just this FUD, its going to clock down based on workload, The system will still have what every machine in modern memory has had- THERMAL FAN THROTTLING.
It will adjust the fans- and it only adjusts the clock for workload. Simple right?
 

Shin

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I honestly have no idea, but I would trust the architect of the system when it comes to how it works. Perhaps we will learn when we see the system at release. I’m an Xbox first guy,(stupid Halo) but I’m no PS hater. Good games are good games.
I wouldn't, but I agree with you that we'll see when it releases (hopefully not), but I don't trust people that easily.
Also agree with good games is good games (not sure about the relevance as I'm not bound to any platform).

What does this reply even mean?
It means buy some jam bottle glasses or a functional set of brains.

If it's clocking down then performance is affected, simple right?
 
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The Alien

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So I understand clearly before either side blurries the thread with misinformation....

Stable clocks are easier to develop for and dont have varying power. Variable clocks can go from 9-11 tflops, lets say, and have issues with developer optimization, heat, noise, and power variances.

Did I understand that?

Cuz all I've been hearing is how easy one specific console will be to develop for/optimize and how quiet it will be as well as the power delta wont be very large.
 

loktaiextatus

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Oof, I didn't know stating a basic arithmetic fact on this forum would cause so much ire.
What did you post for... no response at all? Doesn't posting merit a reply? I confirmed you're correct. Yes. 12 is bigger than 10. No shit. How much bigger?
And how has it mattered in the past? I dont even argue fill-rate or anything else because who cares - lets wait for some actual systems to compare.

Its not Ire.... its just a response because asking to confirm a higher number is better like you're asking someone to repeat after you for review.... Yeah thats Ire.
Why else would you post this "arithmetic" ?
 

geordiemp

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So it’a a compromise and it will always perform worse than the same clocks but fixed, which is what I said.
That the only thing you have ever posted that almost makes sense abut you still got it wrong, Ps5 is clocking 22 % more than XSX nearly all the time and yes it has a crazy novel cooling solution and predictive clocks. Yes everyone is interested.

Yes XSX is nice and powerful, it could of been 20 % more and almost 15 TF, is that not interesting ? Do you not think others will do this in future ?

The benefits I listed in a post above, its not just TF. Everything on the GPU goes quicker for what it is.

And personally no am am not pushing my tech understanding, I am dumbfounded by others lack of any comprehension what so ever. They cant even read the first post and understand what he was meaning.
 
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loktaiextatus

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So I understand clearly before either side blurries the thread with misinformation....

Stable clocks are easier to develop for and dont have varying power. Variable clocks can go from 9-11 tflops, lets say, and have issues with developer optimization, heat, noise, and power variances.

Did I understand that?

Cuz all I've been hearing is how easy one specific console will be to develop for/optimize and how quiet it will be as well as the power delta wont be very large.
There is no issue with developer optimization because you dont usually optimize for a 10% clock variance but even if you did- remember why it throttles has nothing
to do with anything that varies between consoles. It varies between workloads. In addition to a dev kid the Dev also generally will know how it runs on a retail unit.
The dev kit is going to take into account through the SDK what the console will do with that workload. The FANS are what will throttle- but they are saying there wont
be times when the system workload goes out of control in a loop like on a map screen and the fans start to scream bloody murder because the GPU is getting hot
from rendering at an unlimited uncapped setting (which is what was explained previously) , though that always seemed like a sloppy developer thing to me
maybe not.
 
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As a reminder.

@nush - The key here on the ban message is 'The usual '9TF' console warrior nonsense. [ ]....post is obviously meant to antagonise.'

@captainraincoat can make their appeal of why they are dropping the '9TF' argument other console warriors are known to use, and have also been banned for. Without that qualifier the post is fine. With it, it's just there to antagonise people. If you can provide the confirmation that the console is in fact 9TF (by which we mean runs at a majority of the time at 9TF as per the insinuation) and not 10.28TF as detailed in the release materials, then we can roll back now. Until then the onus is on @captainraincoat to provide that evidence via the appeal address. Or alternatively justify what the purpose of dropping that statement was. It should be relatively easily to clear up.

The bait comment was in response to baiting other posters (probably Playstation owners) to come in and go through the same cyclical argument of 9TF, it's not 9TF etc. We see no reason this is not the case here. It did not need to be mentioned to make the underlying point. But we are open to being convinced otherwise.


EDIT: In fact, I will lift the ban, I will message @captainraincoat directly and delete the post. They have no priors so I'm sure they will be receptive to this action instead.
We all know what's tolerated and what's not here. Let's try and keep this thread civil otherwise things will go bad here.
 
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T-Cake

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Was it someone from the Xbox gang who mentioned in an interview about taking the console out in to the desert to test its cooling? I can't seem to find the article now.
 

GHG

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Its worded fine, he talks about variable frequency, and then says this is a different animal.

Its not that hard, or maybe it is by these posts. People even talking about smart shift not frequency control.
You need to understand that in this day and age people can only read the first few words of something before jumping to conclusions. Attention spans are at an all time low.

If he had written the same tweet with the sentence order reversed then I guarantee the responses in this thread would be different and you wouldn't see literal paragraphs of nonsense being written.

What I do find hilarious though is the fact that some people have allowed a narrative to solidify in their heads to such a degree that they are agreeing with a tweet that confirms the exact opposite of said narrative simply due to the misinterpretation of a few words.

Unfortunately this is what happens when the basis of your arguments are centered around theory rather than fact.
 
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geordiemp

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Isn't he essentially saying the term variable clocks shouldn't really be applied to PS5 because traditionally it had been associated with throttling due to temperatures and is unpredictable. Whereas the PS5 is the "different animal" in a good way?
You won the award of being able to read, I have some faith in humanity.

You need to understand that in this day and age people can only read the first few words of something before jumping to conclusions. Attention spans are at an all time low.
Your being too kind, its the same xbox trolls, I think they just cant read anything with long words.
 
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