Ban porn but legalize prostitution.

Jan 31, 2008
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#1
OK, here is my premise. Porn is fucking us up and causing a lot of problems. It seems to be linked to a lot of social ills, things like erectile dysfunction being seen in younger and younger men. Or the seriously declining amount of personal contact among young and healthy people, who more often choose to sit home and fap to porn. We see the rise of subcultures like "incels" that just seems like no good can come of it.

Young people (especially men) have unrealistic expectations of sex because of porn. They think every girl is going to be into crazy stuff and whatever fetish they have has been "normalized" from watching tons of videos about it. Just getting laid used to be enough....now it has to be a threesome with little people in SS uniforms or I can't get hard.

So let's get rid of porn, but legalize prostitution. At least there is actual human contact there, and there are boundaries to be followed. The women are actual people and not just objects on a screen. That is actually the norm in human history, we see that militaries, colleges, and even the Vatican have tolerated the existence of brothels nearby because they recognized the need for a safety valve for excess male "energy.'
 
Sep 4, 2018
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nope on all of that. legalize prostitution if u want but getting rid of porn is a horrible idea.

what do you think will happen when extremist incels are cut off from their porn? ah, and now they will have legal access to sex workers? sex workers already face a dangerous job, now there will be abusive/dangerous nofap crazies in the market. that's a recipe for disaster.

seems like it would place more of a burden on sex workers. i don't see how normalizing prostitution would make people treat women less like objects. if paying for sex becomes the norm, wouldn't that have the opposite effect?

also i think you are distorted in your view of porn imo. media does not change people into things they are not.
 
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Likes: Dunki
May 4, 2005
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#5
It seems to be linked to a lot of social ills, things like erectile dysfunction being seen in younger and younger men. Or the seriously declining amount of personal contact among young and healthy people, who more often choose to sit home and fap to porn.
Better solution: Everyone become more sexy, make the world one of utmost sexiness of all inhabitants.

On a serious note: Allow both.
 
Nov 25, 2012
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#7
OK, here is my premise. Porn is fucking us up and causing a lot of problems. It seems to be linked to a lot of social ills, things like erectile dysfunction being seen in younger and younger men. Or the seriously declining amount of personal contact among young and healthy people, who more often choose to sit home and fap to porn. We see the rise of subcultures like "incels" that just seems like no good can come of it.
Pump the breaks there super chief. Incel's are not really a product of porn, but rather mainstream media.

Porn tells me that I'll get a blowjob as a tip if I deliver a pizza to a hot girls house, or that it's really a girl on the other side of that gloryhole. But neither are true. Porn in not real, and we all should know it. We like the fantasy, and sure, it is damaging to what people expect out of an sexual encounter especially if we don't have a frame of reference for what a healthy sexual relationship is. Education and stigma reduction here would work better then making porn illegal. (And then there is the whole pickle of drawing that line in the sand. Where does porn end, and art begin?)

With the mainstream media, I'm sure most of us can think up at least 2 or 3 different movies, TV shows, or ad's where the "loser" gets the hot girl/guy. Chase the girl no matter how many times she says no until you win her is a trope in ROMCOMs. Where axe body spray and girls will chase you. Work out and get hot and that guy will marry you. Tell that guy you love him, in the middle of his wedding and he will leave the bride for you.
Most of us grew up seeing this stuff, and a lot of us expected the world to work this way. And it doesn't. Chasing the girl no matter how many times she says no is creepy. But the "nice guys" see these things and internalize them. And when it doesn't work, they get bitter, and start to become an "incel".

For some of these people, visiting a prostitute would not help anything, since part of the reason they are the way there are is that they feel worthless. Take it from me, you don't feel any less worthless after visiting someone that likes your wallet more then you.

I am 100% for legalized prostitution. It's the worlds oldest profession for a reason.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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#9
No.
The answer isn't to ban or censor.
The answer is to grow a spine, learn some discipline and learn how to practice accountability and responsibility for yourself.

Constantly shrugging and saying "[Thing] needs to be banned" doesn't solve the issue - that, more and more, humans are a growing into a bunch of pathetic crybabies who refuse to manage their own conduct.

Personal responsibility (once people stop being terrified of it and making endless excuses to avoid practicing it) will address so many 'issues' it's not even funny.
 
Likes: epicnemesis
Jan 31, 2008
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#10
Why are incels a thing? If the number of males/females are roughly equal....the tendency should be for everyone to find a mate, right?

I see why there are problems in countries where there is an imbalance between males and females, like China for example....but that is not the case here...so something is short circuiting the system somewhere...?

Are they just unwilling to lower their standards and accept someone who is a "match" for them...? Like a guy who is a "3" sitting and waiting around for Cindy Crawford and jerking off instead of asking out a nice girl who is at his level of looks...? Or are women more picky...are the "3" women more willing to be lonely instead of settling for a more average guy?

I still think porn is a part of the problem here. If a guy can "have" an 18 year old named Courtney who loves loads on her face on one day, and his "10" stepsister who dresses up as Sailor Mercury and eats ass on the next day, who go to the trouble of dealing with a regular girl? And the other advantage of prostitution....unless he is a young Donald Trump he won't be able to afford to do it that many times....so it will be incentive to go find a real girl and get it for free.
 
Likes: Nymphae
Apr 9, 2009
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#11
Men being bitter or depressed over rejection isnt some new development. Its part of being human. As men get older they gradually deal with it or ignore it.

The only difference is nowadays they have sites where they can congregate and voice their thoughts no matter how asinine. Not really a big deal.
 
Aug 11, 2018
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Men being bitter or depressed over rejection isnt some new development. Its part of being human. As men get older they gradually deal with it or ignore it.

The only difference is nowadays they have sites where they can congregate and voice their thoughts no matter how asinine. Not really a big deal.
The internet kinda sucks tbh
 
Jun 16, 2018
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What do you mean ban? Legal penalties? Deprive someone of their hard earned cash by threat of force? Or do you mean deprive someone of their freedom through use of force for merely watching something? This is without talk of the rumors of rape in prison, which some say are unfounded.
 
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Jan 31, 2008
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#18
What do you mean ban? Legal penalties? Deprive someone of their hard earned cash by threat of force? Or do you mean deprive someone of their freedom through use of force for merely watching something? This is without talk of the rumors of rape in prison, which some say are unfounded.
Well this is more of a thought experiment, since I of course don't actually believe that we can ban pornography under the first amendment. I am just trying to figure out the advantages/disadvantages of both as sexual outlets for society.
 
Jun 16, 2018
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Well this is more of a thought experiment, since I of course don't actually believe that we can ban pornography under the first amendment. I am just trying to figure out the advantages/disadvantages of both as sexual outlets for society.
I think legalization of prostitution would be good.

But porn, the law is quite clear right now. Soon there will be photorealistic cg that looks like 10/10 supermodels, and there won't be any possible abuse of sex workers for its creation. I cannot see any reasonable basis for added regulation to what will likely be mostly entirely fictional porn, since I presume it will in the future be mostly cg(as cg characters will look superhumanly good and stave off aging perpetually, and cg production costs will plummet over time).

edit:
You cannot curtail freedom of the majority on the presumption that some unstable minority might be inspired to commit a crime. When no one is harmed, and no crime is committed, the idea that loosely inspiring crimes is enough basis to ban or censor art, is troublesome. How many works of fiction would be affected by such a ridiculous stance? How could we have villains or conflict of any kind in any work of fiction, if we try to defend that loosely inspiring crime is enough justification for banning something?
 
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The proliferation of that technology would create a fetish market for "real porn", it's not going anywhere.
Maybe a fetish for 10/10 real world porn actresses. But I just don't see an abundance of super attractive cg porn actresses resulting in a fetish for ugly actresses, only those real actresses that are highly attractive could compete, and only for a time as aging eats away at attractiveness.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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#24
Masturbation makes you blind.
And rock music turns children into Satan worshippers.

Porn does not cause any of that. Porn have been around forever is not harmful in anyway except it hurts some peoples morals, morals
they want to impose on others.
 
Jun 3, 2013
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#26
Porn have been around forever
I think there is a huge difference between a culture in which pornography exists, and ours in which (almost literally) every single citizen of any age can access pornography of any type, at any time and place. We have a huge problem with access to porn that no one really seems to care about anymore. Google will serve it up to your kid if they ask for it. It never used to be this easy, and I think it's naive to assume this is having zero effect on our culture.
 
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#27
Banning porn isn't going to stop the proliferation of incels and the like, banning porn would just drive it underground and make it probably put women in danger more than anything.

The only way you're really going to curb incels growth and the warped perspective on sex and intimacy in general is by stripping women of their autonomy by doing something like assigned marriage, that and no longer allowing women to work this taking society back to a time where women basically had to rely on men in pretty much every sense so women had much less say (in practice) in who they married,

But the other side of the coin if that were to happen is that men would have to be the sole breadwinners/providers in a society/economy were cost of living has by far outpaced wage growth…which would actually only exasperate the incel issue really.

Basically some guys would be screwed either way.
 
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#28
The only reason I would advocate banning porn is to make it fun again. Porn before the internet had a beautiful layer of meaning on it that has nothing to do with objectifying women and everything to with rites of passage and the secret world of adulthood.

I'm probably watching too much Jordan Peterson (damn you YouTube algorithm!), but I think if the problems OP mentioned are really consequences of internet porn, it has less to do with objectifaction of women and more to do with demystification of sex and adulthood.

The way porn circulated amongst youth when I was coming up in 80's and 90's was like an episode of 'Lost' - every answer just begged more questions.

Because of the scarcity of material, and the risk of ass-whoopings if caught, porn had a sacred quality to it, and I truly believe that carried over into the exploration to a significant degree - we weren't perverts, we were theologians.

Porn today is a more disposable commodity than water. Maybe that different relationship to access has an effect?

I think wherever you land on a porn ban, we can all agree that unfettered access to free porn is a horrible thing for children to have.

I don't think banning is the right thing to do, but we certainly have no problem as a culture lying to children: I propose a reverse-Easter Bunny type situation. We somehow hard-ban porn from children, but engineer those 'Stand By Me' magazine in the woods scenarios, and try to keep the lie of porn as taboo and sacred going for as long as is possible.

At the very least, I think it would do about as much good as legalizing prostitution, and would be far more entertaining as a bystander.
 
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#29
I propose a reverse-Easter Bunny type situation. We somehow hard-ban porn from children, but engineer those 'Stand By Me' magazine in the woods scenarios, and try to keep the lie of porn as taboo and sacred going for as long as is possible.
Interesting idea....but the internet exists. We already hard ban porn from children, don't we lol? I'm not sure I see how this could work outside of banning internet from your home and somehow ensuring your child never gets access to it.
 
Jan 12, 2009
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No thanks, but legalize prostitution anyway.

It's not fair that rich people get all of the best shit. Now I can't even jack off to fine ass bitches or outlive my supreme fetishes or group sex fantasies because I don't have enough cash to pay for it? Fuck all that.

But seriously now in a modern society things become more accessible, not less. You can't ban porn because it can be used negatively or creates incels.
 
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#31
I'm surprised you are for tolerating prostitution. I would however say no to both. You are right in that pornography is a problem in today's society. I can understand you saying that some sort of sexual outlet seems sadly "necessary" to modern men and at least a prostitute is a real person instead of an imaginary thing. But, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because it seems every man in the world can't control themselves does not mean we should allow women to be degraded in such ways (the prostitution racket forces women into dangerous situations and again makes sex into something it is not supposed to be).

Pornography leads to the objectification of women and a self serving "love" that warps the foundation of the intimate and loving act of sexual intercourse. Having prostitution be legalized won't fix the problem our young men are having of self gratification and spiritual emptiness, but could even make it worse. If this were to happen men would be putting their perverse fantasies to actual use.

Why not encourage young men to learn about sex through abstinence and chasteness? It isn't necessarily "cool" nor easy, as the eyes wander and the beauty of a young maiden is glorious and tempting, but it is what we should strive for. We need to put our will to good use and teach our children the proper ways to court and act among the fairer sex. Otherwise we get these "incels" who only care about themselves and treating women as things. We need to understand that while sex is a great act of love, it isn't the meaning of life and one can simply do other things in life and never have sex at all. Not everyone is supposed to marry after all.
 
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#32
I avoid the Politics forum for a few days and this is the first thing I see?

Bravo. It's actually a laudable, original idea - but it doesn't work in real world terms, any more than banning marijuana or alcohol works.

I applaud you for thinking through your idea and posting it. But reducing liberty for individuals to such a great extent as to ban a form of free sexual expression among consenting adults is unworkable and wrong on all levels.
 
#33
Yeah one thing that CGG touched on which I see is a greatly missed point amongst the masses is how men notoriously treat the women in those pornography clips. Though they get paid to do it, I do not doubt for a second that they dislike the treatment they receive from some of those harsh folk. Most people dislike their jobs, anyway.

Having prostitution legalized with this in mind will most certainly increase the barbarism that ran rampant in the times it was legal. People are especially less tolerant towards hypersexual advances and behavior, and it will certainly be a loss for all involved.

To be quite honest, I think that in an ideal situation where favorable, comfortable, and safe sex practices can be practised on a grand scale (or at least ensured), porn itself would be better off banned than prostitution legalized.
 
Jun 25, 2015
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#34
I think legalization of prostitution would be good.

But porn, the law is quite clear right now. Soon there will be photorealistic cg that looks like 10/10 supermodels, and there won't be any possible abuse of sex workers for its creation. I cannot see any reasonable basis for added regulation to what will likely be mostly entirely fictional porn, since I presume it will in the future be mostly cg(as cg characters will look superhumanly good and stave off aging perpetually, and cg production costs will plummet over time).

edit:
You cannot curtail freedom of the majority on the presumption that some unstable minority might be inspired to commit a crime. When no one is harmed, and no crime is committed, the idea that loosely inspiring crimes is enough basis to ban or censor art, is troublesome. How many works of fiction would be affected by such a ridiculous stance? How could we have villains or conflict of any kind in any work of fiction, if we try to defend that loosely inspiring crime is enough justification for banning something?
Soon there will be the possibility of using a photograph of any girl in a program that makes a photorealistic 3D model from that model and that will be used for porn. There's no abuse of sex workers but the abuse of regular people is going to be very real.
 
Jun 25, 2015
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#35
The only reason I would advocate banning porn is to make it fun again. Porn before the internet had a beautiful layer of meaning on it that has nothing to do with objectifying women and everything to with rites of passage and the secret world of adulthood.

I'm probably watching too much Jordan Peterson (damn you YouTube algorithm!), but I think if the problems OP mentioned are really consequences of internet porn, it has less to do with objectifaction of women and more to do with demystification of sex and adulthood.

The way porn circulated amongst youth when I was coming up in 80's and 90's was like an episode of 'Lost' - every answer just begged more questions.

Because of the scarcity of material, and the risk of ass-whoopings if caught, porn had a sacred quality to it, and I truly believe that carried over into the exploration to a significant degree - we weren't perverts, we were theologians.

Porn today is a more disposable commodity than water. Maybe that different relationship to access has an effect?

I think wherever you land on a porn ban, we can all agree that unfettered access to free porn is a horrible thing for children to have.

I don't think banning is the right thing to do, but we certainly have no problem as a culture lying to children: I propose a reverse-Easter Bunny type situation. We somehow hard-ban porn from children, but engineer those 'Stand By Me' magazine in the woods scenarios, and try to keep the lie of porn as taboo and sacred going for as long as is possible.

At the very least, I think it would do about as much good as legalizing prostitution, and would be far more entertaining as a bystander.
So, the solution would actually be banning the internet. We'd get all that back instantly :unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
Jan 31, 2008
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#40
I'm surprised you are for tolerating prostitution. I would however say no to both. You are right in that pornography is a problem in today's society. I can understand you saying that some sort of sexual outlet seems sadly "necessary" to modern men and at least a prostitute is a real person instead of an imaginary thing. But, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because it seems every man in the world can't control themselves does not mean we should allow women to be degraded in such ways (the prostitution racket forces women into dangerous situations and again makes sex into something it is not supposed to be).

Pornography leads to the objectification of women and a self serving "love" that warps the foundation of the intimate and loving act of sexual intercourse. Having prostitution be legalized won't fix the problem our young men are having of self gratification and spiritual emptiness, but could even make it worse. If this were to happen men would be putting their perverse fantasies to actual use.

Why not encourage young men to learn about sex through abstinence and chasteness? It isn't necessarily "cool" nor easy, as the eyes wander and the beauty of a young maiden is glorious and tempting, but it is what we should strive for. We need to put our will to good use and teach our children the proper ways to court and act among the fairer sex. Otherwise we get these "incels" who only care about themselves and treating women as things. We need to understand that while sex is a great act of love, it isn't the meaning of life and one can simply do other things in life and never have sex at all. Not everyone is supposed to marry after all.
I guess tolerating prostitution is just the default position, even in a society where it is illegal on paper it is largely tolerated. I don't really like it, and I agree that sex confined to marriage is the best expression of the capacity to love that God gave us. But I am positing that it is the lesser of two evils.

But I am thinking about the giant social ill of pornography. Sahlberg is right that porn has been with us forever, or at least since man learned to scratch a pair of big boobs into a wall...but he is wrong in the way he seems to assume that nothing essential has changed. I remember my friends and I finding a Playboy when we were about 13. Of course we were fascinated, Catholic schoolboys that we were. Looking back on it, it wasn't even that dirty by modern standards...just naked bodies. Seems like semi-innocent "Wonder Years" type stuff. But that is not the experience of kids now. The internet and mobile devices have changed things, and the bombardment of the most hardcore material, including violent and fetish stuff, has made my looking at boobs in Playboy seem pretty quaint. It is not the same, there is growing evidence that sexual dysfunction is on the rise.

I guess it is a case of the lesser of two evils, but I think it is normal for a young person to have a real curiosity about sex, and to be pretty driven to have some questions answered. The "right of passage" sex for a young man is pretty standard, I would think. With a first girlfriend, a neighborhood slut, or a prostitute...it leaves you healthy and wanting more. Dare I say wanting to marry and lock in a source of regular sex...?

But pornography, particularly in regular use, just blunts that. There is no curiosity about sex, no mystery, no romance. There is no relation to other people, women in particular. There is no mutuality, no negotiation of parameters, spoken or unspoken. It is all just there, everything you want, no matter how unusual or dirty, without limit. Instead of creating desire for deeper relationships, it just paves over everything with a stupefying sameness.
 
Feb 1, 2017
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#41
Porn tells me that I'll get a blowjob as a tip if I deliver a pizza to a hot girls house, or that it's really a girl on the other side of that gloryhole. But neither are true. Porn in not real, and we all should know it. We like the fantasy, and sure, it is damaging to what people expect out of an sexual encounter especially if we don't have a frame of reference for what a healthy sexual relationship is.
By this logic, if we enjoy playing World of Warcraft, we are in danger of believing that magic is real and to quickly get from point A to point B one needs a fast Griffon.

Not least how made up the very example you've mentioned is, most porn consumed on the internet are free short clips on pornhub and the likes, most of which start straight with the act.

The crystallization of "incel" community resulted, in my humble opinion, from two factors:
1) adultery/single motherhood has become more acceptable in society, a token husband is not that needed any more
2) internet made it easier for people to group

I want to expand on point 1 a bit. Given the way our species reproduce, for males, if the goal is to have the best and it makes sense to mate with as many as possible, where as for females, it is stupid to risk having offspring from lesser guys, when the stronger/faster/smarter ones are available (it doesn't mean they should settle with one either, however).

Recent stats from Norway, where they noticed that over recent couple of decades, while desire to have kids haven't changed, the number of childless men nearly doubled and is at about 1 in 4.. For women it changed only slightly.

Now that there are no wars to send them to slaughter, there is a large group of "useless" males, for whom things could only get worse, who would be among the first victims of tech project (robotics/AI).

And, heck, now you want to remove porn from such people, shame on you.

niceguys is an interesting concept, I guess, where people assume some not so great looking dudes can become more attractive by being particularly nice to women. If what I said above is true, no freaking way, but people seem to have problems accepting that just being nice doesn't make you attractive, so there is that peculiar "it's because you are not true scotsman really nice" twist to it

Work out and get hot...
That is, actually, a great advise. Even if particular person of interest wouldn't care, the pool of those who do, will increase and on top of that come health benefits.
 
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#42
This is yet another time when I consider my staunchly atheist beliefs and wonder if there is something more to religion than make-believe spaghetti monsters. It's undeniable how the emphasis on familial and social well being can be a positive force in keeping communities strong and safe. I don't know why the natural development of a secular society seems to be hedonism, but it is clearly not a good path. As a father and a husband (with a wife who is somewhere between agnostic and atheist) I see a lot of good in the focus on family values and moral relativity that religion tries to provide, and I honestly try to use some of it as a framework for my kids while leaving out all of the more non-sensical lifestyle-controlling bits.

I really hope my kids grow up to be healthy, happy and responsible adults.
 
Likes: odd_hatch
May 9, 2016
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#43
Interesting idea....but the internet exists. We already hard ban porn from children, don't we lol? I'm not sure I see how this could work outside of banning internet from your home and somehow ensuring your child never gets access to it.
So, the solution would actually be banning the internet. We'd get all that back instantly :unsure::unsure::unsure:
I proposed the solution tongue-in-cheek, but I like the idea of 1) decoupling porn and objectification as OP's presented problem, and 2) trying to illustrate one of the ways growing up with ubiquitous access to the internet has affected us in a way we might not realize.

Even if I thought an 'internet ban' was a good idea, I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle.

I still wonder if the bigger issue isn't the information, but the access. Why the hell do children have smartphones?
 
Likes: Nymphae
Sep 26, 2014
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#45
Why are incels a thing? If the number of males/females are roughly equal....the tendency should be for everyone to find a mate, right?
The answer to this question is a question itself. Why do men and women find mates?

Financial security is a big reason, i would also say its the biggest factor in the rise of incels. 40 years ago for most women, marriage was the way to be financially stable. Now most women have the ability to become financially stable on their own, even as single mothers. This is a great thing for women, it gives them more freedom and choice. It is not a good thing for men. Most men marry down socially, and have for the majority of history, while the reverse is true for women. So with women being more financially stable, they look even farther up the ladder than in the past. This causes more men in the lower rungs to be overlooked than would have in the past.
 
Likes: appaws
Feb 22, 2017
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#46
I think they should make free porn illegal, if people had to pay for it, consumption of it would go down a lot.
It's strange there are many free sites that make $millions through ads and they get a free pass.
It's kind of insane that anyone can get instant access to a library of porn that never ends. It's kinda like if every person had a portable drug dispenser with an unlimited supply.
 
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Jun 16, 2018
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#49
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I think they should make free porn illegal, if people had to pay for it, consumption of it would go down a lot.
It's strange there are many free sites that make $millions through ads and they get a free pass.
It's kind of insane that anyone can get instant access to a library of porn that never ends. It's kinda like if every person had a portable drug dispenser with an unlimited supply.
Again what is meant by illegal? You mean deprive of freedom or resources by use of force? Theft and kidnapping done by the state? How can someone who has done no harm to another be deprived of their resources or of their freedom? Unjustly harmed just because you dislike what they do? That is quite authoritarian, and that is wrong, and that is unethical.
 
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#50
Again what is meant by illegal? You mean deprive of freedom or resources by use of force? Theft and kidnapping done by the state? How can someone who has done no harm to another be deprived of their resources or of their freedom? Unjustly harmed just because you dislike what they do? That is quite authoritarian, and that is wrong, and that is unethical.
I highly doubt that most people who want porn banned/limited want violators to be harmed or imprisoned for a long time. The penalty could be as simple as a slap on the wrist with warnings and small fines to pay. Just because something is illegal does not mean that the gestapo is going to go break into houses and arrest violators. I don't want to be rude but it appears to me that you are putting words into his mouth.

Personally, I would like for pornography to be illegal for all of it's ill effects on society. However, I think that this would be impossible to do realistically. Though, even if there is no way to get something like this done, I think we should encourage men to start treating sex with more respect.
 
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