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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)

Rainer70

Member
Just finished watching the Extended Cut with my brother and dad. All 3 of us never saw the theatrical cut but are big DC fans. We all really enjoyed it a lot, I thought it was great. It's currently my favorite comic book movie.

I felt like everything that looked wrong from an outsider's perspective (
Superman never smiling, Batman killing, annoying Lex
) didn't feel as bad within the context of the movie especially as an extension of MoS. I personally didn't like MoS, but after seeing BVS, I appreciate the arc I think they're trying to convey with Superman.

That
Capital Hill explosion was done really well, especially as I was really starting to like that senator lady.
 

Apt101

Member
I had the chance to watch this.

The added scenes do add some much needed exposition and make several scenes feel a lot more cohesive to the story. One of the Superman-related scenes in particular was very effective, and I do not understand why it was left out.

It's not a magic bullet though. All of the problems of the film still exist, though it lightens the blow. If they really wanted to release an "ultimate cut", they would have included these scenes, left out 90% of Lex Luthor, removed the Batman brandings, and figured out some way to edit out the awful "MARTHA!!??!?!" thing, which was like middle school tier writing and conflict resolution.

Edit: on a second watching Superman briefly became Phil Dunphy
 
Yeah, when all is said and done, just on the visuals and music alone, this movie is a 6.7

The photography in this movie is hands down the best in the genre. Any interactions between Affect and Irons is downright Batman porn. Soooo good!

You get Snyder a good script, and he has the potential to do as good as Ridley Scott at his best.
 

MrMephistoX

Member
I've watched the UC 3 times now.

It is just about tied with Watchmen as best superhero movie. It surpasses the genre handily and is a real movie, not just comic nonsense for people who can't read.

I don't remember the TC cut of Watchmen at all but damn that director's cut is great.
 

Vex_

Banned
so are we allowed to talk about spoilers because I have a question holy shit.


Darkseid? Is he "coming"? If so, this means the good timeline is going to happen? Because Lois didn't die and make Superman go evil? In this movie, the flash comes back in time through the speedforce to tell bats that he was "always right about him" [Superman being bad news]. But that is the "bad timeline" right? Because Superman didn't go evil? The sequel (justice league movie) should be dope.


Also, at the end of the movie, bats tels wonder woman that he has a hunch thT the justice league will have to fight? Is he acknowledging that nightmare he had?


Sorry for so many questions, I don't read the comics. Was wondering if this is explained there.
 

IconGrist

Member
so are we allowed to talk about spoilers because I have a question holy shit.


Darkseid? Is he "coming"? If so, this means the good timeline is going to happen? Because Lois didn't die and make Superman go evil? In this movie, the flash comes back in time through the speedforce to tell bats that he was "always right about him" [Superman being bad news]. But that is the "bad timeline" right? Because Superman didn't go evil? The sequel (justice league movie) should be dope.


Also, at the end of the movie, bats tels wonder woman that he has a hunch thT the justice league will have to fight? Is he acknowledging that nightmare he had?


Sorry for so many questions, I don't read the comics. Was wondering if this is explained there.

Darkseid's forces, yes.

No one really knows what's going on with that Knightmare. It was supposed to pay off in a later movie but it may not since there was such a backlash towards the movie.

Partly the Knightmare but mostly Lex's rambling is what motivates Batman to find the other metahumans.
 

spoonztt

Member
so are we allowed to talk about spoilers because I have a question holy shit.


Darkseid? Is he "coming"? If so, this means the good timeline is going to happen? Because Lois didn't die and make Superman go evil? In this movie, the flash comes back in time through the speedforce to tell bats that he was "always right about him" [Superman being bad news]. But that is the "bad timeline" right? Because Superman didn't go evil? The sequel (justice league movie) should be dope.


Also, at the end of the movie, bats tels wonder woman that he has a hunch thT the justice league will have to fight? Is he acknowledging that nightmare he had?


Sorry for so many questions, I don't read the comics. Was wondering if this is explained there.

Bats put two and two together after the knightmare scene and then discovering the metahuman files.
 

duckroll

Member
Just finished watching it. The expanded scenes improve the first act of the film enormously in terms of connective tissue and fleshing out the Lois Lane and Clark Kent subplots. It makes Superman's disdain for Batman much more justified, and it really spells out the Luthor conspiracy in a much more concise way. But... all the flaws of the rest of the movie are still there, and nothing really fixes it. Batman is still a total moron who has no reason to fight Superman at all, at least not in such a violent way especially when Luthor's involvement in the bombing should be obvious to him. Superman giving up after trying to tell Batman that it was all a misunderstanding just twice, and then going full WWE on him is also totally illogical. The script forces the title fight so awkwardly, it feels like the most expensive wrestling match ever staged, and feels just as artificial. Doomsday is still a totally pointless part of the climax, and so is the Knightmare scene.

This extended version does not fix the film, but it makes what is enjoyable about the film more enjoyable, and it makes the slower subplots in the earlier part of the film have more of a place in the overall narrative. More than anything else, by the end of the film I finally see the true fundamental flaw in the movie. The reason why I think it is mocked so much by critics and seen as a failure in cinematic execution. At the heart of it, the story is a total silly ass comic book misunderstanding engineered by an insane mustache-twirling villain ending with three over the top man child fantasy brawls. It's filled with cheese and shouldn't be taken remotely seriously and just enjoyed. That's fine. But it is all that, shot with the reverence of a dramatic epic, begging to be taken seriously and respected. That doesn't work for lots of people. I think it's pretty cool to try something like that, but that also means when scenes work, they fucking work, but when they fall flat, it really feels like a big joke. This is the superhero version of Pearl Harbor in a sense, but obviously more fun and less offensive since it isn't actually based on tragic historical events.
 

IconGrist

Member
WHAT'S WRONG WITH PRO WRESTLING DUCK *tips over small coffee table*

Hey hey! If you're gonna act a fool, you can see yourself out!

 

mm04

Member
Just watched it and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I'm glad I wasn't tainted with a previous theatrical cut viewing. That and watching it on my Atmos home theater is a superior experience. Looked and sounded fantastic. I'm really excited for Justice League now. Loved the Wonder Woman enters battle music too. I thought they did a good job of showing Batman's prep superiority and WW being bad ass. I didn't realize Gal Gadot is as tall as she is.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Definitely agree about this being a pretty damn great movie. I wish more people saw the light, since you know they aren't going to let the DCEU happen the way it organically was heading. Instead, I can see it going more popcorn and gags... Such a shame.

The world-building in this movie is unmatched in the genre. I love how the characters have been humanized and are therefore more relatable. Not always for good, mind you, but the actual emotion, biases, and faults of humanity, as well as their best qualities are all there.
 

MrMephistoX

Member
so are we allowed to talk about spoilers because I have a question holy shit.


Darkseid? Is he "coming"? If so, this means the good timeline is going to happen? Because Lois didn't die and make Superman go evil? In this movie, the flash comes back in time through the speedforce to tell bats that he was "always right about him" [Superman being bad news]. But that is the "bad timeline" right? Because Superman didn't go evil? The sequel (justice league movie) should be dope.


Also, at the end of the movie, bats tels wonder woman that he has a hunch thT the justice league will have to fight? Is he acknowledging that nightmare he had?


Sorry for so many questions, I don't read the comics. Was wondering if this is explained there.

Eh I'd almost rather see him turn into Doctor Manhattan...completely powerful, immortal and thus detached from humanity.
 

duckroll

Member
Superman never said Lois died in the Knightmare. He said "you took her from me" or something to that effect. Maybe while Supes is taking the long nap, Bruce Wayne finds a nice girl in Metropolis after all!
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Just saw this on my newsfeed.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/31/why-batman-v-superman-is-smarter-than-you-think-/

Thoughts? Agree or disagree with some of the things brought up here?
Both Snyder's DC efforts have atleast good thematic ideas at their core that are worth exploring, and he himself atleast seems aware of them. On paper, the stuff that drives MoS and BvS are pretty solid.

The problem is entirely in execution. Snyder finds the notion of subtlety to be completely alien, and so he bludgeons the viewer with his point. The Martha moment, at its emotional core, isn't terrible. The notion of Batman having detached Superman from any kind of humanity until forced to see himself as "the killer" of someone's loved ones, bringing his childhood trauma crashing back onto him, in theory isn't bad.

In execution? It's fucking laughable as Batman stops his crusade because "YOUR MOM'S NAME IS LIKE MY MOM'S NAME! WE SHOULD BE FRIENDS NOW!"


There are plenty of great ideas thematically in BvS. It's just pretty dogshit at exploring them. The movie is not without merit thematically. Snyder just trips over himself repeatedly in trying to get those points across while also being a fucking crazy objectivist.
 

ezekial45

Banned
Just saw this on my newsfeed.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/31/why-batman-v-superman-is-smarter-than-you-think-/

Thoughts? Agree or disagree with some of the things brought up here?

There were definitely some smart ideas and topics expressed in the film. I don't think anyone is ragging on that, the guys behind it totally knew the subject material and were trying to tackle it in a way that was modern and relevant to today's age. Which is totally commendable.

Unfortunately, they just did it in the completely wrong way, and they ended up making a very mean and bitter movie that had little optimism.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Snyder can't be subtle. Subtlety is lost on a brain dead populace looking for only a popcorn film. Look how many theoretically intelligent people in this forum miss these seemingly obvious themes and allegories...
 

guek

Banned
Snyder can't be subtle. Subtlety is lost on a brain dead populace looking for only a popcorn film. Look how many theoretically intelligent people in this forum miss these seemingly obvious themes and allegories...

Ah, the everyone who doesn't like what I like is dumb argument. Classic.
 

KahooTs

Member
The Superman arc is the primary content of the movie. Until that person's piece almost every review or comment or whatever I've read on the movie didn't mention it, and the few that did misunderstood it. I can not for the life of me understand why that is.
 

IconGrist

Member
The Superman arc is the primary content of the movie. Until that person's piece almost every review or comment or whatever I've read on the movie didn't mention it, and the few that did misunderstood it. I can not for the life of me understand why that is.

I think Campea mentioned it but nobody listens to Campea.
 

guek

Banned
The Superman arc is the primary content of the movie. Until that person's piece almost every review or comment or whatever I've read on the movie didn't mention it, and the few that did misunderstood it. I can not for the life of me understand why that is.

It didn't feel that way at all in the TC, that's probably why. Superman got the shaft in the TC
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Just saw this on my newsfeed.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/31/why-batman-v-superman-is-smarter-than-you-think-/

Thoughts? Agree or disagree with some of the things brought up here?
Not the first to speak of similar ideas

http://www.popmatters.com/feature/b...se-gods-in-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice/

While he was speaking then of the deconstruction of superhero in Watchmen, the insight is applicable to reading Batman v Superman. “The movie is a challenge—sort of like the book is a challenge—to your icons, your morality, how you perceive pop culture, how you perceive mythology, and for that matter, how you perceive God.” In Batman v Superman we are issued a challenge: What would it mean to think of our beloved superheroes (who are, after all, projections of the stories we like to tell about ourselves) as “beautiful lies” and “false gods”?

At the opening of Batman v Superman , we are brought once again into the childhood trauma that marks the origin of Batman. Fans of Batman know what’s going to happen. We know that it is a necessary part of the story. So we watch helplessly as Thomas and Martha Wayne are sacrificed again in a retelling of their senseless murder so that, narratively, the hero Batman can rise from the ashes of this primal wound and bring justice to Gotham. Ben Affleck’s voice-over narrative to these events points to their mythic significance, “There was a time above. A time before. There were perfect things, diamond absolutes. But things fall, things on earth. And what falls, is fallen.”

Right away we are told that this is not just the Wayne’s story. This is America’s story. A story where the idyllic is an act of imagination and never a perpetual state. Affleck’s ruminations on falling accompany the vision of a young, traumatized Bruce Wayne running aimlessly from his parent’s funeral through the fields until he falls headlong into an underground cave. Batman fans know that this is the bat cave and that the winged creatures young Bruce will inevitably encounter mark the beginning of his transformation into the Dark Knight. It’s a fall that is a new beginning, a story of origins. Like the biblical character of Jacob and his nighttime struggle with an anonymous stranger, young Bruce emerges from these events both wounded and with a new identity.

Snyder’s flourish to this familiar tale has young Bruce Wayne at the bottom of this cave surrounded by hundreds of bats whirling around him, creating a vortex that lifts him up out of the dark hole towards the sunny meadow. The voice-over frames the scene and the movie by hinting that this origin is perhaps less of a straightforward statement about “diamond absolutes” and more of a necessary questioning of identity of the hero and what he might represent. “In the dream,” Affleck comments on this lifting of the protagonist from traumatic darkness to new identity. “they took me to the light… a beautiful lie.”

Snyder’s Batman and Superman each embody a manifestation of American self-consciousness in the 21st century. In Batman we see our obsession with fear; an overconfidence in the power of striking fear as a deterrent along with the persistent fear of the threat of the other. In this movie as well as in the comics, Batman’s “cautiousness” borders on paranoid fear as he keeps a contingency plan on Superman and the other members of the Justice League because trust in the goodness of others is a sucker bet. Snyder’s Superman raises the questions of the morality of our worship of unfettered power. Superman’s cultural mythos has always coincided with the belief that such raw power exercised in the pursuit of justice is good. Batman v Superman asks us to consider the Man of Steel as a “weapon of mass destruction” whose intervention, even if benevolent in its intentions, creates destructive after effects.

While there are obvious issues with the film (its plot is bloated, it assumes depth knowledge of the “canon”, and it tries to tell a story while setting up a franchise), much of the negativity misses its importance. Snyder asks us to gaze at what we value and the objects we worship. American civil religion is a potent amalgam of the Christian narrative structure, a belief in the benevolence of America’s colonialist tendencies and unreflective worship of American power. Superman is our unquestioning faith in the goodness of America’s exercise of raw power with little awareness of the collateral damage. Batman embodies the perversion of justice into a brutish force that deems any means necessary if we decide the threat warrants the suspension of the rules. Ironically, it is Lex Luthor who declares himself a philanthropist, a lover of humanity. Is it love for the whole that drives his orchestration of this clash of titans? None of us is ever motivated by unmixed motives as his hatred of Superman reveals, not a critique of power, but a reaction to a threat to access to power.

There really isn't any struggle to get these themes, and many others, across in the Ultimate Cut, even with a few executional flaws. In addition, criticisms like this:

"Snyder just trips over himself repeatedly in trying to get those points across while also being a fucking crazy objectivist."

have no bearing on the film itself as there is little to back it up when you look at the whole picture. You can't just say "BvS is tainted by crazy objectivism" with literally nothing to back that statement up, while most likely said opinion is simply based off of reading an interview where Snyder said he'd like to adapt the Fountainhead, never mind that the content of the film is seemingly at odds with this statement.
 

Ninjimbo

Member
Just saw this on my newsfeed.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/31/why-batman-v-superman-is-smarter-than-you-think-/

Thoughts? Agree or disagree with some of the things brought up here?
The themes are there but I'll be honest and say that I haven't looked at it in this way. The allusions to 9/11 are there on the surface and the way Terrio and Snyder warped it and arrived at this story is a great feat. I think the article dwells too much on the surface though. There's other things in the movie that are ripe for analysis that the writer doesn't even try to dwell on which could have changed his opinion on how smart the film really is.

I can't really go into detail in my post but this article

http://www.popmatters.com/feature/beautiful-lies-and-false-gods-in-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice/P0/

is a really good read on some of the other aspects of the movie. Great writing too.

My bad if I messed up the link. I'm
on mobile.
 

KahooTs

Member
while most likely said opinion is simply based off of reading an interview where Snyder said he'd like to adapt the Fountainhead, never mind that the content of the film is seemingly at odds with this statement.

Like that video review that was posted here and met with great applause, the one that didn't bother to address Superman's arc but dedicated what felt like half of its fifteen minutes to discuss the use of symbolic imagery and why its bad in this film, to come to the grand conclusion that symbolic imagery in a good movie is good, but in a bad movie its bad. Then spent the last minute musing on what the film said personally about Snyder.
 

guek

Banned
You tell me. Either the film is full of obvious themes and symbolism with absolutely no regard for subtlety, and those who don't pick up on those points are uncultured swine, or...what?

or those themes and metaphors are poorly executed, undermining their effectiveness and robbing the film of the weight it was trying to achieve.

This is like when fans kept clamoring about how anyone who didn't like "Martha!" didn't understand it. Even if that were the case (it isn't) that doesn't change the fact that it's the execution people took issue with.
 

BadAss2961

Member
UC is legit, finally saw it a couple nights ago. The extra 30 was in fact mostly connective tissue that broke a lot of the theatrical cut once removed. I also felt Superman's death a lot more on this rewatch with the added scenes.

It was a little overwhelming the first time, but seeing it again, i'm pretty sure BvS has the best third act of any superhero movie... Which isn't actually saying a whole lot imo, since most movies in general have their best parts in the beginning and middle. BvS is a true slow burner up until the senate explosion, then all the money shots begin to follow, one after another. Odd pacing compared to everything else.

Just about every one of these movies goes for an action packed finish, I give BvS the nod here because it has a combination of the most visually striking and best choreographed fight scenes through three separate pieces. I also like that it doesn't have the typical ending where all is well.

The theatrical is an incomplete cut of the film. It almost compares to watching a really hard R movie on a basic cable channel with commercials... It should be phased out for the film's legacy.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Like that video review that was posted here and met with great applause, the one that didn't bother to address Superman's arc but dedicated what felt like half of its fifteen minutes to discuss the use of symbolic imagery and why its bad in this film, to come to the grand conclusion that symbolic imagery in a good movie is good, but in a bad movie its bad. Then spent the last minute musing on what the film said personally about Snyder.
or the supposed revelatory YouTube video about some guy going on about "scenes" and "moments," who is seemingly oblivious to the content of actual scenes in the film as he glosses over them, and how they connect and what they mean thematically to the narrative at large. (Ultimately just another meaningless YouTube video meant only for some people to repeat its buzzword criticisms ad nauseum as if they are gospel.)

This kind of blind criticism could be excusable based off the theatrical cut, but not the Ultimate, and if based off the latter...jesus
 

Vex_

Banned
In execution? It's fucking laughable as Batman stops his crusade because "YOUR MOM'S NAME IS LIKE MY MOM'S NAME! WE SHOULD BE FRIENDS NOW!"


I'm surprised that's what you got out of that.

Batman came to a realization that this "false god" not only bleed, but he has family. This being who he barely knew anything about, just became more "human" to him. Supes was at risk of losing something Batman had already lost.

....and it just so happens that his mother had the same name. At that point, if I were in the same situation... I would find it hard to kill that person as well. He has family. Superman is now seen by bats as "vulnerable" in more ways than one. It is less about the name, and more about seeing the opponent as a mortal being with a relationship and situation similar to bats' own. (As much as you CAN see an alien as a human being anyway).

And guess what? Batman gets a chance to save someone named Martha. Two birds with one stone. (I'm being partially serious here).
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
I'm surprised that's what you got out of that.

Batman came to a realization that this "false god" not only bleed, but he has family. This being who he barely knew anything about, just became more "human" to him. Supes was at risk of losing something Batman had already lost.

....and it just so happens that his mother had the same name. At that point, if I were in the same situation... I would find it hard to kill that person as well. He has family. Superman is now seen by bats as "vulnerable" in more ways than one. It is less about the name, and more about seeing the opponent as a mortal being with a relationship and situation similar to bats' own. (As much as you CAN see an alien as a human being anyway).

And guess what? Batman gets a chance to save someone named Martha. Two birds with one stone. (I'm being partially serious here).

Uh huh... Yeah I get it, as the rest of my post pretty blatantly indicates. It's also really really really dumb.

If her name was Cindy, would Superman have gotten that kryptonite spear through his face?
 

Yager

Banned
Uh huh... Yeah I get it, as the rest of my post pretty blatantly indicates. It's also really really really dumb.

If her name was Cindy, would Superman have gotten that kryptonite spear through his face?

No, but Batman reaction would've been a bit different. Like "Cindy? What are you talking about?" instead of "WHAT DID U SAY DAT NAME!!!!!"
 

IconGrist

Member
Uh huh... Yeah I get it, as the rest of my post pretty blatantly indicates. It's also really really really dumb.

If her name was Cindy, would Superman have gotten that kryptonite spear through his face?

Yea, probably. Then enters Doomsday and Earth is fucked since Lex was wrong in his assumption that Doomsday would obey him.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Yea, probably. Then enters Doomsday and Earth is fucked since Lex was wrong in his assumption that Doomsday would obey him.
Doomsday didn't activate until the counter was over and the final prods shoved into his birthsack.

More than likely he'd have been able to abort it ;P
 

IconGrist

Member
Doomsday didn't activate until the counter was over and the final prods shoved into his birthsack.

More than likely he'd have been able to abort it ;P

Maybe. I don't see why he would though. He thought it would do what he says. Could have just kept it as pet of sorts in a lab. Sucks they didn't emphasize this when Doomsday tried to obliterate him. I would have loved to see Lex's reaction.
 

Bleepey

Member
Snyder can't be subtle. Subtlety is lost on a brain dead populace looking for only a popcorn film. Look how many theoretically intelligent people in this forum miss these seemingly obvious themes and allegories...

I agree. Especially with the Martha scene. Another example is the Lois and the kryptonite spear where people argue that it's illogical for her to deduce kryptonite harmed Superman despite the fact you saw a damn near God weak underneath it, or the fact he had a scar from a cut he received most likely from something sharp possibly the suspicious looking spear. I am sorry but arguing how she deduced that will forever ok invite my ridicule. Also people ridiculing why Lois would throw the spear away, how she deduced Dooksday was kryptonite and why she went to retrieve the spear.

Other plot holes includes Lex's blood of my blood line which explains he thought he could control Doomsday, in the deleted scenes he literally says answers only to me.
 

guek

Banned
I agree. Especially with the Martha scene. Another example is the Lois and the kryptonite spear where people argue that it's illogical for her to deduce kryptonite harmed Superman despite the fact you saw a damn near God weak underneath it, or the fact he had a scar from a cut he received most likely from something sharp possibly the suspicious looking spear. I am sorry but arguing how she deduced that will forever ok invite my ridicule. Also people ridiculing why Lois would throw the spear away, how she deduced Dooksday was kryptonite and why she went to retrieve the spear.

Other plot holes includes Lex's blood of my blood line which explains he thought he could control Doomsday, in the deleted scenes he literally says answers only to me.

You don't ever seem to get that Lois going back and forth with the spear is simply poor writing. It's redundant as all hell and feels contrived as a way to give her more screen time.

Throwing the spear in the water was an idiotic move no matter how you slice it. Superman was not nearby, he was not in any immediate danger, and it was the one weapon Lois knew could hurt him. Why would someone as intelligent as her hide it in the first place she can find on public land where someone like Lex could easily retrieve it? Her goal should have been to destroy it somehow. Hell, why the fuck wouldn't Batman leave it there and not take it with him? It's just dumb.
 
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