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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)

i like this movie. snyder's best of all time easily for me. don't like his other movies all that much though tbh aside from the first half of man of steel and dawn of the dead.

there's a lot of stupid plot issues here and it is not a well paced 3 hours either but i love the tone they set for the DC universe and batman and superman's presence within it. world building was on point. i'm glad we got this oppressive superhero epic. i don't think we'll see anything like it any time soon either looking at the way they're going with marvel and dc now. so i'm glad i got to see it, flaws and all.
 

Bleepey

Member
Uh huh... Yeah I get it, as the rest of my post pretty blatantly indicates. It's also really really really dumb.

If her name was Cindy, would Superman have gotten that kryptonite spear through his face?

People always like to forget ignore the fact Superman literally tries to appeal to Batman's humanity. He literally says "you're killing Martha" and was obviously trying to say Martha Kent. Think of it this was you're damn near a God and you on your deathbed appeal to your executioner to save your mother's life. It's not surprising that the go to "my parents are dead" guy would get triggered by the sudden mention of his mother's name.

Other criticisms I found funny were people complaining about the characters motivations. Whilst I agree it was butchered in the theatrical cut the motivations are still there. Clark discusses with Perry White Batman's impact on civil liberties and let's not pretend Batman hasn't been portrayed in damn near every continuity as irrationally paranoid. These as well as Lex's motivations were in the trailer and I found it funny people claim Snyder should have ripped of World's Finest when he literally copied and heightened Superman's reason to fight Batman and actually gave Batman a better reason to fight Supes than whatever reason they cooked up in the animated movie. I could also write a defence of Lex and how throughout the banquet scene he is making jokes to the face of Clark, Bruce and Diana and none of them notice.
 

Bleepey

Member
You don't ever seem to get that Lois going back and forth with the spear is simply poor writing. It's redundant as all hell and feels contrived as a way to give her more screen time.

Throwing the spear in the water was an idiotic move no matter how you slice it. Superman was not nearby, he was not in any immediate danger, and it was the one weapon Lois knew could hurt him. Why would someone as intelligent as her hide it in the first place she can find on public land where someone like Lex could easily retrieve it? Her goal should have been to destroy it somehow. Hell, why the fuck wouldn't Batman leave it there and not take it with him? It's just dumb.

She threw it away hoping that it could never be used to harm Clark again. She hoped people would think it was destroyed. Hell even if a random person found it they'd probably think it was just a random spear. Hell let's say Luthor found out Clark and Batman were both alive at the end why would he conclude the spear would be left lying around?

Also let's say she tried to destroy it. Imagine how that would look on film with her beating it with her shoe or something. Hell I am pretty sure Batman had to use high-powered lasers to cut it so I think it's safe to assume she might be there for a while. Maybe she could have taken it back to her home with Clark for safe keeping! Or maybe called Batman on speeddial for help!
 

guek

Banned
She threw it away hoping that it could never be used to harm Clark again. She hoped people would think it was destroyed. Hell even if a random person found it they'd probably think it was just a random spear. Hell let's say Luthor found out Clark and Batman were both alive at the end why would he conclude the spear would be left lying around?

Also let's say she tried to destroy it. Imagine how that would look on film with her beating it with her shoe or something. Hell I am pretty sure Batman had to use high-powered lasers to cut it so I think it's safe to assume she might be there for a while. Maybe she could have taken it back to her home with Clark for safe keeping! Or maybe called Batman on speeddial for help!

You come across like you're being willfully obtuse. For such a valuable item, leaving it hidden in a public place leaves way too much up to chance. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? Instead you have to jump through hoops to try and say throwing it away in the very first place she could find was the absolute best decision she could have made. Batman doesn't even try to hide it, he just tosses it and forgets about it like that's enough to safeguard the one thing known to be able to hurt Superman.
 

IconGrist

Member
I'm sorry, guek, but that sounds like you're arguing perfect decisions in a perfect world. I'd argue that would be worse writing.
 

guek

Banned
I'm sorry, guek, but that sounds like you're arguing perfect decisions in a perfect world. I'd argue that would be worse writing.

Nah, I'm not. Just not, you know, blatantly idiotic decisions would be nice. Batman throwing away a kryptonite spear without any apparent intention to retrieve it for safekeeping was a poor choice, as was Lois chucking it and immediately having to retrieve it minutes later.
 

IconGrist

Member
Nah, I'm not. Just not, you know, blatantly idiotic decisions would be nice. Batman throwing away a kryptonite spear without any apparent intention to retrieve it for safekeeping was a poor choice, as was Lois chucking it and immediately having to retrieve it minutes later.

It's not like anyone knew or predicted Doomsday. Whatever plans there were changed. It's not great writing but it's not unbelievable either.
 

Veelk

Banned
Bad writing is, imo, when it is without point and/or without beauty. The thing about Lois' spear thing is, what does that really accomplish, narratively? It keeps the spear out of play in the fight for a while, or else they'd have less room for action scenes. It characterizes Lois as well intentioned but ineffective. It gives her character something to do without it actually making a meaningful impact on the story.

Like with the reporting problem you brought up that could have resolved the movie, the writing is fumbled because they want to make her an intelligent and capable character that nevertheless does not rob the two heroes of their rightful spotlight. As a result, she only plays two roles to success and impact: The emotional support of Clark and the Damsel in Distress who needs to be saved. When she tries to do anything else, the result is failure. For me, if she had thrown the way the spear, and then been the one to retrieve it, well, that would have been redundant, but it also would have given her an active role. Instead, for some reason, when she throws away the spear, it's Superman, the guy whose actually weak to it, that has to go get it. It's a very "Stop doing things, you only fuck everything up, you are worse than worthless" moment for her.

And it makes that kind of situation for what? Realism that people in chaotic situations do stupid shit while a giant CGI battle with LotR's cave troll? Bah.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
I agree with Guek. Whatever Batman's thoughts on Superman were at that moment, tossing that spear was a terrible idea.
 

Bleepey

Member
You come across like you're being willfully obtuse. For such a valuable item, leaving it hidden in a public place leaves way too much up to chance. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? Instead you have to jump through hoops to try and say throwing it away in the very first place she could find was the absolute best decision she could have made. Batman doesn't even try to hide it, he just tosses it and forgets about it like that's enough to safeguard the one thing known to be able to hurt Superman.

Let's look at it this way.

Superman: He can't exactly take it with him
Batman: he was so angry and upset with himself he threw it away in disgust. He could have taken it with him but the fact he didn't isn't a deal breaker to me. At the time he was trying to go and rescue the mother of the man he just tried to kill.
Lois: She can't take it home. She couldn't destroy it even if she tried. Why would she walk the streets carrying a spear? She deduces this spear damn near killed her bf and so she threw it away at the first location she could find.

You're reaching.
 
I skipped the TC, and watched this, and i thought it was very enjoyable. Really long though, and the Martha scene was fucking dumb but the rest was a lot of fun. I'd even say at the level of what i got with civil war, tbh.
 

Ahasverus

Member
Hindsight arguments are stupid anyways "But he could have done THIS THING" guess whaat, the movie woud have been 10 minutes long. The reaching is real.
 

guek

Banned
Let's look at it this way.

Superman: He can't exactly take it with him
Batman: he was so angry and upset with himself he threw it away in disgust. He could have taken it with him but the fact he didn't isn't a deal breaker to me. At the time he was trying to go and rescue the mother of the man he just tried to kill.
Lois: She can't take it home. She couldn't destroy it even if she tried. Why would she walk the streets carrying a spear? She deduces this spear damn near killed her bf and so she threw it away at the first location she could find.

You're reaching.
You're desperate to justify it. "Oh, the characters were just temporarily acting stupid, that excuses their stupidity!"

There's no reason Lois couldn't take it with her. Hell, in the UC, she establishes a contact at STAR labs. Or better yet, craft a better way to make her relevant than a temporary bout of stupidity. The excuse you're using is as bad as "Batman was so consumed with blind hatred, he did zero research on the cause of his rage before deciding to murder it."
 

LosDaddie

Banned
The whole Batman vs Superman fight was dumb. It just is.

Superman is there to appeal to Batman's humanity, or whatever, but completely gives up on that tactic after those sonic weapons and gun turrets. Not once but twice superman shoves batman to the ground without attempting to "appeal to his humanity" again.

But surely shoving batman through a building will get him to listen to reason. Only when batman is about to shove a spear through his chest does superman remember to try to talk to him again.

EDIT: I did enjoy the fight, though. Nice spectacle
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
You're desperate to justify it. "Oh, the characters were just temporarily acting stupid, that excuses their stupidity!"

There's no reason Lois couldn't take it with her. Hell, in the UC, she establishes a contact at STAR labs. Or better yet, craft a better way to make her relevant than a temporary bout of stupidity. The excuse you're using is as bad as "Batman was so consumed with blind hatred, he did zero research on the cause of his rage before deciding to murder it."

he was so angry with himself, he swapped outfits!
 

Anth0ny

Member
The whole Batman vs Superman fight was dumb. It just is.

Superman is there to appeal to Batman's humanity, or whatever, but completely gives up on that tactic after those sonic weapons and gun turrets. Not once but twice superman shoves batman to the ground without attempting to "appeal to his humanity" again.

But surely shoving batman through a building will get him to listen to reason. Only when batman is about to shove a spear through his chest does superman remember to try to talk to him again.

EDIT: I did enjoy the fight, though. Nice spectacle

i think this is how I feel about the movie in general

as soon as I start to think really hard about it a lot of the film falls apart and I begin to understand all of the criticisms

but I'm far too busy in fanboy mode just taking in a live action movie with batman, superman and wonder woman in it to get too angry about these things
 

Bleepey

Member
You're desperate to justify it. "Oh, the characters were just temporarily acting stupid, that excuses their stupidity!"

There's no reason Lois couldn't take it with her. Hell, in the UC, she establishes a contact at STAR labs. Or better yet, craft a better way to make her relevant than a temporary bout of stupidity. The excuse you're using is as bad as "Batman was so consumed with blind hatred, he did zero research on the cause of his rage before deciding to murder it."

At the spur of the moment it's a logical thing to do. Hey my boyfriend who is pretty much indestructible, is suddenly found to be really really allergic to magic green rocks. What do you do?

a) Throw it away in the first body of water she finds. Hoping it sinks to be forgotten about or flow into the sea
b) Take said allergen home to her bf
c) Take it to a scientist who may destroy it. Or maybe Lex could get a hold of it to try to kill him again.
d) maybe this maybe that

Dude you're seriously reaching.

i think this is how I feel about the movie in general

as soon as I start to think really hard about it a lot of the film falls apart and I begin to understand all of the criticisms

but I'm far too busy in fanboy mode just taking in a live action movie with batman, superman and wonder woman in it to get too angry about these things

I am the polar opposite I think it stands up to scrutiny.
 

Sojgat

Member
The whole Batman vs Superman fight was dumb. It just is.

Superman is there to appeal to Batman's humanity, or whatever, but completely gives up on that tactic after those sonic weapons and gun turrets. Not once but twice superman shoves batman to the ground without attempting to "appeal to his humanity" again.

But surely shoving batman through a building will get him to listen to reason. Only when batman is about to shove a spear through his chest does superman remember to try to talk to him again.

EDIT: I did enjoy the fight, though. Nice spectacle

The fight itself was kind of lame. Batman spams krytptonite and they punch each other. It's pretty much the least creative thing they could've come up with. I expected better from Snyder in the action department.
 

Ahasverus

Member
The fight itself was kind of lame. Batman spams krytptonite and they punch each other. It's pretty much the least creative thing they could've come up with. I expected better from Snyder in the action department.
It's slow and violent, it's not a glorification of the fight, it shouldn't be.
 

IconGrist

Member
Fight sucked. It was always going to suck because it's always sucked in every other form it's been depicted. I'd only hoped Superman would come out on top but I didn't even get that. It's just a waste of 8 minutes.
 

Veelk

Banned
As someone who studies stories pretty closely, the question of "When should characters do something stupid" is an interesting one.

There are entire successful movies built around pure, concentrated stupidity of the characters. Take Pulp Fiction for example. Most of it's story is based around people making absolutely asinine mistakes. Marcellus' wife almost dies because she took a bag of white powder from vincent's coat. She just assumed it was cocaine and snorted it, when it was actually heroin. Bruce Willis's girlfriend leaves his watch in his apartment despite being told how important it was, so he goes back to get it despite knowing it is where hitmen are going to be waiting for him. When he arrives, he finds his watch AND THEN STOPS TO COOK HIMSELF A POPTART. This is when he notices the machine gun that Vincent just leaves sitting on the counter of the guy he came to murder. Marcellus himself only didn't kill Bruce Willis because he was out getting donuts during his assassination mission. The rapists are too busy raping to notice they didn't secure their other prisoner enough to the point that he literally walks up and is able to take them out with a sword, despite them having a shotgun. The entire piece with Tarentino's character is because Vincent was dumb enough to casually wave his gun and he accidentally shoots marvin in the backseat. Samuel L Jackson's character arc is based around the fact that he simply cannot accept that a man shooting blindly and randomly would miss all 6 shots, when that's actually perfectly normal.

It's a classic and critically acclaimed movie with seriously stupid characters doing idiotic things, but never once have I heard anyone be actually frustrated with the fact. And I'm sure anyone can think of movies where the story is brilliant not despite characters stupidity, but because of it. The poor decisions made is the core of the drama. The Coen Bros are actually very frequent writers of it, for example, especially Fargo.

It's extremely difficult to pin down a rule of thumb for how and why it works when it does and does not when it does not. But one recurring element is that the movie, if not the characters, are seem aware that the actions being taken are stupid. Perhaps that is what BvS lacks, since it treats it's questions as things of grand philosophical quandaries of right and wrong, when in actuality, Batman can truly be reduced to being a stupid hateful paranoid dick. However, another avenue is when character stupidity serves some kind of theme, which Batman's stupidity definitely does. However, with Lois, her poor action doesn't provide any insight into her character or serve some kind of greater theme, it's just "oh, shit, I fucked up so now Superman has to fix my mistake and the movies padded out a bit more".

Still, it's hard to find a clear and concise answer as to what stupidity is okay and what stupidity is not.
 

Ahasverus

Member
It's Batman fighting Superman, and somehow it manages to be boring.
I didn't find it boring. It was done so that you're supposed to feel uneasy inside, thinking "please stop right now". When Bats got the washer I was like "Please don't nonononono.. Oh god".
 

guek

Banned
At the spur of the moment it's a logical thing to do. Hey my boyfriend who is pretty much indestructible, is suddenly found to be really really allergic to magic green rocks. What do you do?

a) Throw it away in the first body of water she finds. Hoping it sinks to be forgotten about or flow into the sea
b) Take said allergen home to her bf
c) Take it to a scientist who may destroy it. Or maybe Lex could get a hold of it to try to kill him again.
d) maybe this maybe that

Dude you're seriously reaching.



I am the polar opposite I think it stands up to scrutiny.
Nah, it's not reaching whatsoever. You've convinced yourself it was the only logical action in the spur of the moment which is itself contradictory. If it becomes less logical outside of the moment, it's not the best option. There wasn't anything pressing Lois to get rid of it as soon as she possibly could either. Nothing stopped her from taking a moment to actually think so your argument about her being under duress doesn't hold up either.

Look, I don't really care that much. It's just another sloppy piece of writing in a very sloppy movie. As Zack says, it is what it is, and even if it's dumb, it doesn't ruin the movie. What I take issue with though is your continued insistence that anyone who finds this bit and others to be problematic are somehow stupid. They're real problems that have been addressed time and time again. As a film, I can accept some of the problems and move past it but it's ridiculous to say they aren't real issues at all and insulting to say anyone who finds them problematic just doesn't understand the movie.
 

Sojgat

Member
Fight sucked. It was always going to suck because it's always sucked in every other form it's been depicted. I'd only hoped Superman would come out on top but I didn't even get that. It's just a waste of 8 minutes.

The Hush fight was cool, and so was the one from the Dark Knight animated movie. Them fighting is dumb, but the least the filmmakers could do is make the actual fight interesting. Most of the fight takes place inside a delapidated building for crying out loud. How much did this movie cost again?
 

Sojgat

Member
I didn't find it boring. It was done so that you're supposed to feel uneasy inside, thinking "please stop right now". When Bats got the washer I was like "Please don't nonononono.. Oh god".

Eh, Superman tried to punch Batman's head off on the roof. He had it coming at that point.

Edit: double post. Sorry.
 

Sojgat

Member
I highly disagree with this. I thought it was the most exciting part. I could see it being boring if you weren't invested in the emotional aspects of the fight.

It's hard for me to invest emotionally when they're both acting so irrationally. Superman could have kept trying to de-escalate the situation, but instead he starts throwing Batman around, and at the first sign of trouble he tries to murder him. Batman just acts like a psychotic moron from start to finish.

I think the UC is an okay movie, but I find it's depictions of the two main characters highly problematic.
 
Honestly, I think the whole spear thing was a totally believable action in the moment. I think it would be a totally believable scenario that someone trying to get rid of it in the moment would toss it in the water and then later realize "Oh shit. Actually I need that." The problem is that this is a movie and it didn't need to be that way and really adds nothing to the story which makes it bad writing. They could have come up with a multitude of scenarios that would have been less clunky. Overall a minor nitpick for me though. The movie has much bigger fundamental problems.
 

Goliath

Member
It's hard for me to invest emotionally when they're both acting so irrationally. Superman could have kept trying to de-escalate the situation, but instead he starts throwing Batman around, and at the first sign of trouble he tries to murder him. Batman just acts like a psychotic moron from start to finish.

I think the UC is an okay movie, but I find it's depictions of the two main characters highly problematic.

You remember there was a time crunch right? Superman had a short amount of time to either kill Batman or convince Batman to join and help save his mom. Seeing as when Superman arrived Batman had set up a "Home Alone Death Trap" and refused to communicate with him Superman chose option 2.
 

Goliath

Member
Honestly, I think the whole spear thing was a totally believable action in the moment. I think it would be a totally believable scenario that someone trying to get rid of it in the moment would toss it in the water and then later realize "Oh shit. Actually I need that." The problem is that this is a movie and it didn't need to be that way and really adds nothing to the story which makes it bad writing. They could have come up with a multitude of scenarios that would have been less clunky. Overall a minor nitpick for me though. The movie has much bigger fundamental problems.

People are nit picky. What other option should there be. It just lays unnoticed in the battlefield until Superman get's knocked down next to it and uses it. These movies are the few forms of media that don't make Lois seem like a selfish, star chasing jerk. She is nice and compassionate and her getting rid of the thing that is killing her BF makes sense. Her going after it at the risk of her own life was also a nice heroic moment and pulled Superman's attention away long enough for him to retrieve her, the spear and have a nice moment with her before he sacrifices himself.
 

Sojgat

Member
You remember there was a time crunch right? Superman had a short amount of time to either kill Batman or convince Batman to join and help save his mom. Seeing as when Superman arrived Batman had set up a "Home Alone Death Trap" and refused to communicate with him Superman chose option 2.

Throwing him around helps? Batman was yelling like a petulant child, but he was still communicating at that point.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
The fight itself was kind of lame. Batman spams krytptonite and they punch each other. It's pretty much the least creative thing they could've come up with. I expected better from Snyder in the action department.

I remember being massively disappointed by the fight (haven't watched it again since I originally saw it in the cinema). For a film titled Batman v Superman you'd expect their fight to the the one moment that the film would absolutely knock out of the ballpark...

Unfortunately I don't remember there being any particularly interesting choreography nor any 'epic' money shots. It's sad that the fight choreography in both 300 and Watchmen put this to shame and I expected a lot more from Snyder.
 

Senoculum

Member
Can't get over how much better the extended cut is. It's like a completely different film.

Same. Just watched it last week with my coworkers and we all really enjoyed it (3 of them were first time watchers). I'm amazed how much you sympathize with Clark Kent; his characterizations and subdued performance is perfect within context. And I'm just enamoured with Ben Affleck's performance, it's nigh tragic where the character was going - the line from Alfred, "so falls the house of Wayne" was pitch perfect from Jeremy Irons. Just a great clash of villains and heroes in the Ultimate Edition. And after watching the Justice League and Suicide Squad trailers, the world seems very rich and complete.
 

Veelk

Banned
The only decent part of the fight is when Batman is punching Superman repeatedly as the effects of the kryptonite wear off.

That was a decent visual moment, but for me, that was by far the biggest character assassination of Batman. As you know, I really try to avoid the "Not my batman/superman" argument and only attack how these characters failed to be compelling in their own right in the context of the movie alone, and there is a lot to be said about them there.

But this a moment where something in me snapped and just got angry, because it exemplified how much of a coward Batman was in this movie. When the Kryptonite wore off and Batman saw he was no longer able to pound him senseless, he backed away and put on an expression of fear. He even raised his hand toward him, as if to say "stay back! Please!". All I could think was "Oh, so you're happy to beat him down when he can't defend himself, but when he's not at your mercy, you're afraid?"

That made me so angry, more than any other moment in the film. The abject hypocrisy and sadism and cruelty to the weak mixed with fear of retribution made in that small moment reduced Batman to an overgrown schoolyard bully who can dish out punishment on the weaker kids, but cries when he himself is victimized.

The thing is, I know this is a mistake on Snyder and not the character that is consistent with the rest of the movie. The rest of the fight, Batman is eager and willing to face threats with greater strength than him, even if he's still a bag of dicks about it. But it helps feed how absolutely dispicable this Batman is, not just that he's vicious and cruel, but also lacks integrity. Batman has been depicted as many, many things in various media, but never as a coward. Not until that scene. It's the only time where my rejection to Snyder's version of the characters is so strong that I'm willing to play the "Not my batman" card. It shouldn't be ANYONE'S Batman, though I'm sure a rationalization for it is coming. Probably something about how it humanizes batman to be afraid of Superman or some shit.
 

BadAss2961

Member
I remember being massively disappointed by the fight (haven't watched it again since I originally saw it in the cinema). For a film titled Batman v Superman you'd expect their fight to the the one moment that the film would absolutely knock out of the ballpark...

Unfortunately I don't remember there being any particularly interesting choreography nor any 'epic' money shots. It's sad that the fight choreography in both 300 and Watchmen put this to shame and I expected a lot more from Snyder.
Watch it again. The Batman/Superman fight has a lot of great shots. The staredown, the rooftop shot of Batman down with the rain pouring, Superman catching that first shot of kryptonite, the moment where the effects start to wear off, everything and the kitchen sink, Batman carrying Superman's lifeless body. The whole thing was great spectacle, most visually impressive scene the genre has to deliver.

300 is a bit of a different animal, but the warehouse fight is Snyder's greatest hand to hand achievement. That scene is intense. Watchmen doesn't have anything on that level.
 

IconGrist

Member
That was a decent visual moment, but for me, that was by far the biggest character assassination of Batman. As you know, I really try to avoid the "Not my batman/superman" argument and only attack how these characters failed to be compelling in their own right in the context of the movie alone, and there is a lot to be said about them there.

But this a moment where something in me snapped and just got angry, because it exemplified how much of a coward Batman was in this movie. When the Kryptonite wore off and Batman saw he was no longer able to pound him senseless, he backed away and put on an expression of fear. He even raised his hand toward him, as if to say "stay back! Please!". All I could think was "Oh, so you're happy to beat him down when he can't defend himself, but when he's not at your mercy, you're afraid?"

That made me so angry, more than any other moment in the film. The abject hypocrisy and sadism and cruelty to the weak mixed with fear of retribution made in that small moment reduced Batman to an overgrown schoolyard bully who can dish out punishment on the weaker kids, but cries when he himself is victimized.

The thing is, I know this is a mistake on Snyder and not the character that is consistent with the rest of the movie. The rest of the fight, Batman is eager and willing to face threats with greater strength than him, even if he's still a bag of dicks about it. But it helps feed how absolutely dispicable this Batman is, not just that he's vicious and cruel, but also lacks integrity. Batman has been depicted as many, many things in various media, but never as a coward. Not until that scene. It's the only time where my rejection to Snyder's version of the characters is so strong that I'm willing to play the "Not my batman" card. It shouldn't be ANYONE'S Batman, though I'm sure a rationalization for it is coming. Probably something about how it humanizes batman to be afraid of Superman or some shit.

Agreed. It also kind of shits on his whole "You're not brave. Men are brave" bullshit he was spitting earlier. Superman was powerless and still tried to go toe to toe. Batman starts shaking and puts his hand up like he was about to start shouting, "I DIDN'T MEAN IT!"
 

Goliath

Member
Throwing him around helps? Batman was yelling like a petulant child, but he was still communicating at that point.

I think the thought was either Superman is trying to muster up the courage to kill a human in cold blood or hoping that the throws would incapacitate him so he could talk to him without him being led to another home alone trap.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Agreed. It also kind of shits on his whole "You're not brave. Men are brave" bullshit he was spitting earlier. Superman was powerless and still tried to go toe to toe. Batman starts shaking and puts his hand up like he was about to start shouting, "I DIDN'T MEAN IT!"
It's not like he actually did all that though, it was just a brief moment of total helplessness.There's no problem with Batman showing fear in that spot, up close where he could be broken in half at any point. He's the clear underdog, we already know he fears Superman. Taking him on by himself is already a great act of bravery.

Bruce had faced fear and tragedy his whole life and was doing it again. He believed he was showing Clark fear for the first time, which wasn't true. The men are brave line comes from that mindset.
 

Blader

Member
It's slow and violent, it's not a glorification of the fight, it shouldn't be.

It shouldn't be slow and violent either. Batman thinks Superman is a threat to humanity and has the power to wipe out everyone in an instant. He also has a weapon capable of killing him immediately. So why is he taking his time, tossing him into pillars, dragging the tip of the spear across his skin, etc.? Why doesn't he immediately stick Supes with the spear?

Snyder is definitely glorifying the fight, just in a weird, gleefully torturing way.
 

JoeInky

Member
I think the fight was ok, they did fuck it up in a few places though.

The part where batman starts acting afraid made me laugh the first time I saw it, he goes on about superman feeling fear and then the moment the kryptonite wears off, he's holding a quivering hand out in front of him instead of adapting and trying to do something different. They should have copied that moment from Justice League War and have batman try to grapple away from superman to give him time to load another gas bomb, but just have superman catch the grapple hook in mid air and then use that to throw him through the wall, rather than have batman act scared and then get thrown through the wall.


Also, I didn't like how they changed superman's entrance in that fight, in the very first trailer they have Batmans spotlight in the sky, then lightning flashes for a brief second and superman is there in the middle of the light, I thought that was a great little visual moment and in this his appearance wasn't as exciting, he was just already there in the shot from what I remember.


I did enjoy the movie honestly, I didn't bother watching the TC because I heard about this version coming to bluray and thought may as well not bother.

Definitely not as bad as it was made out to be imo, though that might just be because of the UC differences, I liked the batmobile, I liked watching batman do batman-y things because I'm a fanboy and seeing things that are cool just shuts off the critical parts of my brain I guess.

He didn't have much to do in the Doomsday fight though, I liked the recreation of TDKR pose but that was basically his only real contribution, there's a shot where he's just standing there watching WW fight Doomsday and there's another shot where I don't think it's intended to be funny, but it I laughed at it when doomsday gets shot with the kryptonite gas and then it zooms in to batman who's just way out into the distance.

The warehouse fight was great, though I think his normal suit is a bit too tanky, I'm alright with the cowl being able to tank a point blank bullet, because it can basically be a solid piece of armour but I'm sure he gets shot in other parts of his body and it just bounces off.
 

Teletraan1

Member
As someone who has only seen the Ultimate Cut I was curious to see why people hated the TC so much. The movie I watched was flawed but not worthy of intense hate unless you are really passionate about these characters. Thanks for outlining the differences I can see where some of the TC hate comes from. The movie in its UC form is a bit too long now but I have watched it twice now. It really made me want to watch that Wonder Woman movie now. I am hoping that movie franchise can be DCs Captain America quality wise which were all pretty solid.
 

Lokimaru

Member
That was a decent visual moment, but for me, that was by far the biggest character assassination of Batman. As you know, I really try to avoid the "Not my batman/superman" argument and only attack how these characters failed to be compelling in their own right in the context of the movie alone, and there is a lot to be said about them there.

But this a moment where something in me snapped and just got angry, because it exemplified how much of a coward Batman was in this movie. When the Kryptonite wore off and Batman saw he was no longer able to pound him senseless, he backed away and put on an expression of fear. He even raised his hand toward him, as if to say "stay back! Please!". All I could think was "Oh, so you're happy to beat him down when he can't defend himself, but when he's not at your mercy, you're afraid?"

That made me so angry, more than any other moment in the film. The abject hypocrisy and sadism and cruelty to the weak mixed with fear of retribution made in that small moment reduced Batman to an overgrown schoolyard bully who can dish out punishment on the weaker kids, but cries when he himself is victimized.

The thing is, I know this is a mistake on Snyder and not the character that is consistent with the rest of the movie. The rest of the fight, Batman is eager and willing to face threats with greater strength than him, even if he's still a bag of dicks about it. But it helps feed how absolutely dispicable this Batman is, not just that he's vicious and cruel, but also lacks integrity. Batman has been depicted as many, many things in various media, but never as a coward. Not until that scene. It's the only time where my rejection to Snyder's version of the characters is so strong that I'm willing to play the "Not my batman" card. It shouldn't be ANYONE'S Batman, though I'm sure a rationalization for it is coming. Probably something about how it humanizes batman to be afraid of Superman or some shit.

Other then Solomon Grundy, Bane, Clayface and Killer Croc how many of Batman's Rogues can go toe to toe with him? And of his Heavy hitters how many can out smart him. Batman always has the upper hand no matter the situation. This version of Superman for all his power still doesn't know how to fight. That's a huge handy cap when you A). Lose your powers or B). Run into someone just as tough as you are. Batman never has this problem. Back in the Day Supes use to use his head to get out of jams more then his might but they won't even give him that much.
 

Teletraan1

Member
It's not like he actually did all that though, it was just a brief moment of total helplessness.There's no problem with Batman showing fear in that spot, up close where he could be broken in half at any point. He's the clear underdog, we already know he fears Superman. Taking him on by himself is already a great act of bravery.

Bruce had faced fear and tragedy his whole life and was doing it again. He believed he was showing Clark fear for the first time, which wasn't true. The men are brave line comes from that mindset.

Yeah I feel that the batman is a coward angle is pretty weak. It is an easy argument to make sitting behind a keyboard blowing dorito dust off yourself but if anyone making said argument was actually going toe to toe with a being that could literally rip you in half with zero effort they might change their tune and realize that a little bit of fear is actually a healthy reaction and actually humanizes the character.
 
People are nit picky. What other option should there be. It just lays unnoticed in the battlefield until Superman get's knocked down next to it and uses it. These movies are the few forms of media that don't make Lois seem like a selfish, star chasing jerk. She is nice and compassionate and her getting rid of the thing that is killing her BF makes sense. Her going after it at the risk of her own life was also a nice heroic moment and pulled Superman's attention away long enough for him to retrieve her, the spear and have a nice moment with her before he sacrifices himself.

Though I think all that Lois stuff is true, as part of the narrative the whole sequence feels clunky. Like on the face of it, it's a totally logical course of events but in the same way that me leaving the house and forgetting my keys and having to go back inside to get them is a totally logical course of events. As part of a crafted narrative it feels more like a progression of events that would happen if I was playing with action figures and making up the story as I was going along. There are all kinds of ways they could have still done everything from the point he pulls the spear out of the water and on without actually throwing the spear in the water. Again though, I don't want to belabor the point any more than I have. It's not a huge deal to me.
 
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