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Bayonetta 2 - WiiU (Director: Yusuke Hashimoto, Pub: Nintendo, Supervision:Kamiya)

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farnham

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And why on Earth would they have to do things that way? As a gamer, you should be happy that they saved a potentially GOTG-level game that was cancelled by its original publisher. That's all that matters.

it was canclled by its original publisher.. guess that tells you what the original publisher thought about the game.
Dear Beelzebub, no, Nintendo doesn't need to put any more money on WiiSports.

Also, Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 is IN NO WAY money away from shit like WiiSports. Game projects have budgets that are decided independently from other projects. It doesn't mean Nintendo will spend less money on Zelda Wii U just because they decided to pick up Bayonetta 2. Game publishing & development simply doesn't work that way.


that shit sold much more than bayonetta and thus made more people happy than bayonetta. also nintendos budget is not limiteless. if money is spent somewhere it cant be spent on other stuff. also i hope nintendo does not make zelda for this gen as the franchise is getting way to stale and sales are dwindling.a metroid like one generation break would help the game a lot (but thats a different topic)

Sure, they could use a bit of growing (and AFAIK, they actually have hired more people), but that doesn't mean they should not pursue any cooperation with 3rd parties. The fact is, they can't survive with 1st party efforts alone. I certainly wouldn't have purchased any Nintendo platform if I knew I'd only be getting games developed by their own teams, stuff like Sin & Punishment 2, Little King's Story, Muramasa etc. were more of a reason to own a Wii for me than Nintendo developed games (and I LOVE Donkey Kong Country Returns, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Xenoblade & the like).

they survived on 1st party alone fine on n64, gc and wii

I'm not sure why you're buying into literally every self-defeating myth about Nintendo. They only reach Nintendo hardcores, kids, and grandmas, third parties can't sell on the platform, Nintendo has to produce everything for everyone on their platform... Why?.
third parties will not seriously support nintendo platforms it has been proven in the past. (and those who tried failed.. poor marvelous


The Wii U is a new machine. Nothing is set in stone. Nintendo games will obviously sell well there, but other companies can succeed if they put out the right product. It happened on the Wii, and it'll happen here. If Nintendo wants to encourage a healthy developer ecosystem, they need to take the initiative to show that their platform can work for others. If that requires funding some games, then so be it.
but nintendo benefits a lot more if people buy their games only. 30 million sold for wii sports resort, wii fit, mario kart wii each is a lot of money
If Platinum leaves, they leave, and Nintendo still gets their game. If the game is successful, Platinum has good incentive to stick around. It's low-risk (much lower risk then hiring up a new studio), with some nice potential upside
yes and the sequel or a bayonetta sigma 2 comes to 720 or ps4... makes lot of sense
 

Ridley327

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1. nintendo needs to employ more people and needs to expand their teams. they cannot compete with all third parties at once content wise manpower wise. if you look at the market situation however its nintendo vs. sony and thirdparties vs. ms and third parties. nintendo needs to equalize their lacking third party support (lets dont kid ourselves third party relations will never improve unless nintendo completely abandons first party game development. which would be suicide) with more manpower. this costs money
2. platinum, like any other third party, will abandon ship at the first opportunity they see (which is their good right) as they have better chances to sell games competing against other third parties than competing against a juggernaut like nintendo on a platform that is extremely nintendo centric.


so in conclusion i never said this is not a quality game. i do think however its better to invest in more employees than throwing money at a development studio that will jump ship as soon as they can.



on wiiu...? people seem to have problems in getting consitant 30 fps. but as i said platinum will abandon ship once they get on foot financially or find other publishers anyways.

Out of curiosity, where do you think Platinum can go from here? Konami is on the table, of course, but Sega has all but forsaken them, Capcom is obviously not an option, Square-Enix doesn't seem to be particularly interested in making the kind of games that Platinum is known for, Sony hasn't traditionally been too big on getting big Japanese teams that they don't own to do anything for them (not to mention the lack of need on their part for a critically acclaimed character-based action game), and I don't see a lot of western companies knocking on their door for anything. Do you really see Konami having a need for a lot of Metal Gear Rising titles in the next decade? Do you see them getting them on a potential ZOE3?

I mean, what opportunities do you see opening up for them that don't involve Nintendo or Konami?
 

farnham

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Out of curiosity, where do you think Platinum can go from here? Konami is on the table, of course, but Sega has all but forsaken them, Capcom is obviously not an option, Square-Enix doesn't seem to be particularly interested in making the kind of games that Platinum is known for, Sony hasn't traditionally been too big on getting big Japanese teams that they don't own to do anything for them (not to mention the lack of need on their part for a critically acclaimed character-based action game), and I don't see a lot of western companies knocking on their door for anything. Do you really see Konami having a need for a lot of Metal Gear Rising titles in the next decade? Do you see them getting them on a potential ZOE3?

I mean, what opportunities do you see opening up for them that don't involve Nintendo or Konami?
maybe bandai namco or koei tecmo
konami or...
they could use them for their next gundam musou, hokuto musou, one piece musou, ninja gaiden etc.etc.

all those are better options for platinum than nintendo.
 

sonicmj1

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but nintendo benefits a lot more if people buy their games only. 30 million sold for wii sports resort, wii fit, mario kart wii each is a lot of money

yes and the sequel or a bayonetta sigma 2 comes to 720 or ps4... makes lot of sense

For the former, Nintendo benefits if people buy their games, but they also benefit from licensing fees if people buy games in general. If the environment is healthy enough, then Nintendo gets extra money just from making hardware. Pure profit!

Super Mario Bros managed to outsell all of those while being on a platform that third parties made games for, so I don't see why that outcome isn't preferable.

Also, Nintendo is publishing Bayonetta 2, so it's really the same as a game made by them anyways.

As for the latter, the only way another Bayonetta game can come to another platform is if it's published by Sega, since they own the IP. Since Sega shows no interest in backing another game in the series (which is how Nintendo got it in the first place), that's a really unlikely outcome.
 

farnham

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But who's to say that a new Wii___ title will sell as much as the last?

Based on what?


we dont know if the next gta or cod will sell well but we can estimate that it probably will

even if it doesnt

they can make wii__ games with a lot less money than games like bayonetta. lets say they use the money they spend on development of bayonetta 2 and invest it to get a new internal line of wii__ title production. even if the game sells like wii music it would still be more than bayonetta 1 on both xbox 360 and ps3
 

Ridley327

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maybe bandai namco or koei tecmo
konami or...
they could use them for their next gundam musou, hokuto musou, one piece musou, ninja gaiden etc.etc.

all those are better options for platinum than nintendo.

Why would Koei-Tecmo need Platinum? They already have Omega Force and Team Ninja.

Namco could be someone else, but they haven't made a pure action game in a long time, nor have they seem particularly interested in making another one. They're pretty much all about RPGs and fighting games nowadays.
 

Famassu

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1. nintendo needs to employ more people and needs to expand their teams. they cannot compete with all third parties at once content wise manpower wise. if you look at the market situation however its nintendo vs. sony and thirdparties vs. ms and third parties. nintendo needs to equalize their lacking third party support (lets dont kid ourselves third party relations will never improve unless nintendo completely abandons first party game development. which would be suicide) with more manpower. this costs money
As I already said, expansion isn't always the best move for a business. You seem to lack the understanding of this.

2. platinum, like any other third party, will abandon ship at the first opportunity they see (which is their good right) as they have better chances to sell games competing against other third parties than competing against a juggernaut like nintendo on a platform that is extremely nintendo centric.
I'm sorry, but this logic is silly. By your logic, Platinum Games should pretty much stop developing games altogether. You say Bayonetta 2 will have Nintendo's games against it, but on Sony & Microsoft's devices they'll have Sony's games like Uncharted & Gran Turismo, Microsoft's games like Gears of War & Halo AND 3rd party games like Assassin's Creed, Mass Effect & Call of Duty against them. I'd say that's an even worse situation (not that I agree with your whole logic of Bayonetta 2 competing against Nintendo's games like that)


so in conclusion i never said this is not a quality game. i do think however its better to invest in more employees than throwing money at a development studio that will jump ship as soon as they can.
No, it's not. Having permanent increase in the number of employees costs a lot more than hiring a company. And people have said this to you before but you seem to be ignoring it, but Bayonetta 2 clearly isn't the kind of game release Nintendo will expect to move Mario numbers of units, but it's to make Wii U more tempting as a platform for different kinds of people.

If it weren't for Rayman Legends, Wonderful 101 & Bayonetta 2, my interest in Wii U would pretty much be in sub-zero levels. But, with such exclusive non-Nintendo developed games on their way, I'm just waiting to see if there are any initial kinks that they need to iron out with the hardware & OS (& for money) before jumping in.


on wiiu...? people seem to have problems in getting consitant 30 fps.
Rushed launch (multiplatform) games != every Wii U game from now to eternity, especially when Platinum Games is in question. They'll get the time to polish it to the highest standards.

but as i said platinum will abandon ship once they get on foot financially or find other publishers anyways.
There's no such thing as "abandoning ship" in regards to Nintendo x Platinum Games. They have a publishing agreement, meaning Nintendo is paying Platinum Games to develop a game of their agreement. If Nintendo wants to continue this business relationship after Bayonetta 2's release, then I'm sure Platinum Games will be happy to do more work for them since it means they can continue operating for at least 2-3 more years (as in, they are not out of jobs + Kamiya & Co are huge fans of Nintendo franchises such as Star Fox, so if continued work with Nintendo gives them an opportunity to work on games such as Star Fox, they'll jump on it). If Nintendo decides not to do so, some other publisher might pay them to develop something different. Or it might be that no one picks them up and Platinum Games will go bankrupt. Or it might be that Microsoft saves them after Nintendo decides not to continue their publishing

That's it. There's no stupid fanboyish "abandon ship" crap going on. They are a business and as an independent game development company they don't have a lot of freedom to choose who or what they work with.
 

farnham

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For the former, Nintendo benefits if people buy their games, but they also benefit from licensing fees if people buy games in general. If the environment is healthy enough, then Nintendo gets extra money just from making hardware. Pure profit!

yeah just that they get more games if they get 100% share rather than the licensing fee percentage

Super Mario Bros managed to outsell both of those while being on a platform that third parties made games for, so I don't see why that outcome isn't preferable.

super mario bros also was bundled

wii sports sold nearly 80 million

Also, Nintendo is publishing Bayonetta 2, so it's really the same as a game made by them anyways.

As for the latter, the only way another Bayonetta game can come to another platform is if it's published by Sega, since they own the IP. Since Sega shows no interest in backing another game in the series (which is how Nintendo got it in the first place), that's a really unlikely outcome.

ninja gaiden 2 was published by microsoft wasnt it

did that stop tecmo to release ninja gaiden sigma 2?

and more importantly will platinum be stopped to release bayonetta sigma 2?
 

jerd

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we dont know if the next gta or cod will sell well but we can estimate that it probably will

even if it doesnt

they can make wii__ games with a lot less money than games like bayonetta. lets say they use the money they spend on development of bayonetta 2 and invest it to get a new internal line of wii__ title production. even if the game sells like wii music it would still be more than bayonetta 1 on both xbox 360 and ps3

What you are suggesting would make Nintendo into an exclusively casual console. Abandoning their major IPs and not bringing on any new ones alienates their entire overly loyal fanbase, leaving only casual consumers who jump from device to device as fast as they can come out. Gaming companies should probably at least partially cater to gamers, don't you think?
 

farnham

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Why would Koei-Tecmo need Platinum? They already have Omega Force and Team Ninja.

Namco could be someone else, but they haven't made a pure action game in a long time, nor have they seem particularly interested in making another one. They're pretty much all about RPGs and fighting games nowadays.

maybe because omega force makes bad musou games for years and sales numbers dont justify them like they did in ps2 days and team ninja in general seems to be going down the shitter.


and bandai namco has a lot of manga IPs that they could use as a sales guarantee combined with platinum gameplay

What you are suggesting would make Nintendo into an exclusively casual console. Abandoning their major IPs and not bringing on any new ones alienates their entire overly loyal fanbase, leaving only casual consumers who jump from device to device as fast as they can come out. Gaming companies should probably at least partially cater to gamers, don't you think?



yup.. ms and sony can cater to "gamers". no need for everybody to do the same thing
 

Ridley327

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ninja gaiden 2 was published by microsoft wasnt it

did that stop tecmo to release ninja gaiden sigma 2?

and more importantly will platinum be stopped to release bayonetta sigma 2?

It's not Platinum's call, though; that would be up to Sega, and considering that they already cancelled the game, I'm not sure that a Bayonetta Sigma 2 is something that would even happen.
 

sonicmj1

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ninja gaiden 2 was published by microsoft wasnt it

did that stop tecmo to release ninja gaiden sigma 2?

and more importantly will platinum be stopped to release bayonetta sigma 2?

Tecmo owns Ninja Gaiden. They want to make money from that property. In fact, they had made Ninja Gaiden Sigma before NG2 came out.

Sega owns Bayonetta. They would have canceled Bayonetta 2 before they would fund it for the 360/PS3.

The only way that a Bayonetta sequel comes out for other platforms is if Bayonetta 2 does really well, and if that happens, then Nintendo has made a lot of money.
 

jerd

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yup.. ms and sony can cater to "gamers". no need for everybody to do the same thing

You honestly think Nintendo would be wise to exclusively release minigame collections and party games? I understood at first when you said that is what you would prefer they did, but now you're saying that you actually think it is what they should do?
 

farnham

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There's no such thing as "abandoning ship" in regards to Nintendo x Platinum Games. They have a publishing agreement, meaning Nintendo is paying Platinum Games to develop a game of their agreement.

did ms sue tecmo after they released sigma 2 on ps3? i doubt nintendo will do the same with a potential bayonetta sigma 2 as that would do them more harm then good.
If Nintendo wants to continue this business relationship after Bayonetta 2's release, then I'm sure Platinum Games will be happy to do more work for them since it means they can continue operating for at least 2-3 more years (as in, they are not out of jobs + Kamiya & Co are huge fans of Nintendo franchises such as Star Fox, so if continued work with Nintendo gives them an opportunity to work on games such as Star Fox, they'll jump on it). If Nintendo decides not to do so, some other publisher might pay them to develop something different. Or it might be that no one picks them up and Platinum Games will go bankrupt. Or it might be that Microsoft saves them after Nintendo decides not to continue their publishing

That's it. There's no stupid fanboyish "abandon ship" crap going on. They are a business and as an independent game development company they don't have a lot of freedom to choose who or what they work with.
lip service is no real game development. that kind of comments are the same as yves guilmont saying that he loves the wiiu or xbox 360 or ps3 or 3ds or...

You honestly think Nintendo would be wise to exclusively release minigame collections and party games? I understood at first when you said that is what you would prefer they did, but now you're saying that you actually think it is what they should do?

my personal gaming taste -> id rather have them making games like fire emblem

my thinking what would be wise for them -> make games like wii sports, mario kart, new super mario bros. wii etc. that have global appeal and release some of the more minor games if you have made them for testing purposes anyway but dont overspend money on it. and get rid of the blockbuster type games that dont sell (i.e. zelda and metroid)

It's not Platinum's call, though; that would be up to Sega, and considering that they already cancelled the game, I'm not sure that a Bayonetta Sigma 2 is something that would even happen.

if bayonetta 2 does okay on wiiu they will probably be interested

if not nobody will care and nintendo will have lost money
 

Alexios

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With your way of thinking they should have also not worked with Capcom to get Monster Hunter on 3DS and just poured that money on another Mario game, nevermind it has had two already. I think it's a pretty obvious benefit. Games like Bayonetta offer the same, but to a lesser extent. Securing games like this entices their audience on the platform which in turn entices developers of other such games. No, not to a huge degree since Bayonetta is not a huge IP, but it has its fans and it adds up if they keep doing it (which they obviously will only keep doing it if it seems profitable). Nintendo is no stranger to doing games that don't sell as much as their biggest IP themselves. I don't see how paying others to do similar is such a negative point for you. Also they shouldn't have bought Monolith Soft with that logic either. Or do Fire Emblem games. And basically they shouldn't hold any dev team other than Wii __ and Mario __ teams. No, not even Zelda considering the gap in sales. Etc. It's crazy talk. A single company will never be able to provide enough titles to support the platform all on their own no matter how much you think it possible just by "expanding" (and then imploding at the first sign of trouble). Wii suffered greatly because of the lack of third party support and took a huge nosedive way too son, way before WiiU was ready to come out even as it seems to have been rushed. Anything that helps Wii U not go down the same way even a little bit (since I'm not claiming it will suddenly dethrone other systems on that front) is a good thing for Nintendo and its customers who won't have to go through quite as bad dry spells and what not or force Nintendo's hand when the times comes to replace it.
 

Famassu

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it was canclled by its original publisher.. guess that tells you what the original publisher thought about the game.
It tells nothing of the sort, it's only telling about the shitty financial situation Sega is in.



that shit sold much more than bayonetta and thus made more people happy than bayonetta.
But WiiSports didn't necessarily make people who like games like Bayonetta 2 happy. It's a good thing to try to make a variety of different kinds of gamers happy instead of focusing on just the most popular shit. In a situation where publishers only, we get into a situation like what we have now with western games. One shitty CoD or a copy of CoD after another. A varied game library is a good thing from a gamers POV, no matter if not all of that is as popular as WiiSports.

Your logic is like saying movie makers should stop filming not-as-successful smaller movies and focus all their efforst into Transformers, since Transformers are the more popular movies. Movies like Lost in Translation are just money & workforce away from MOAR TRANSFORMERS.

I mean, don't you see how idiotic that would be?

also nintendos budget is not limiteless. if money is spent somewhere it cant be spent on other stuff. also i hope nintendo does not make zelda for this gen as the franchise is getting way to stale and sales are dwindling.a metroid like one generation break would help the game a lot (but thats a different topic)
Nintendo has, like, dozens & dozens of billions in the bank. A relatively small effort like Bayonetta 2 (Platinum Games is an efficient & relatively small developer, their budget for Bayonetta was quite likely a shitton smaller than, say, Devil May Cry 4's) ain't gonna bankrupt them or make other games' budgets suffer. There's a limit in how much they can put into their own R&D, the rest can be used to hire 3rd parties so that they have a healthy stream of exclusive game releases throughout the years.



they survived on 1st party alone fine on n64, gc and wii
Uh... no they didn't, especially not with GC or Wii, they both got a lot of 3rd party support. Sure, their games sold the most, but in the long run it wouldn't be healthy for their platforms if they were 1st party only. But... yeah, had their release calendar showed one Mario and WiiSports for a whole year, there's no way it would've been a healthy platform.
 

farnham

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With your way of thinking they should have also not worked with Capcom to get Monster Hunter on 3DS and just poured that money on another Mario game, nevermind it has had two already.

no monster hunter is a different beast because its a game that is very important in the japanese market and sold over 3 million on psp alone. its importance at the moment in the japanese moment exceeds that of final fantasy and is on par with dragon quest. bayonetta did not sell that kind of number and its significance is negligable in comparison.
I think it's a pretty obvious benefit. Games like Bayonetta offer the same, but to a lesser extent. Securing games like this entices their audience on the platform which in turn entices developers of other such games. No, not to a huge degree since Bayonetta is not a huge IP, but it has its fans and it adds up if they keep doing it (which they obviously will only keep doing it if it seems profitable).
indeed subsidising games like this doesnt make platinum stronger in the long run and benefits for nintendo are negligeble.


Nintendo is no stranger to doing games that don't sell as much as their biggest IP themselves. I don't see how paying others to do similar is such a negative point for you. Also they shouldn't have bought Monolith Soft with that logic either. Or do Fire Emblem games. And basically they shouldn't hold any dev team other than Wii __ and Mario __ teams. No, not even Zelda considering the gap in sales. Etc. It's crazy talk.

expanding their first party library is a different thing. they will not loose the ip. and as i said in another thread. it would be beneficial for the zelda franchise to have a generation of rest at this point. same applies to a lesser extent to metroid as well.
 

jerd

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my personal gaming taste -> id rather have them making games like fire emblem

my thinking what would be wise for them -> make games like wii sports, mario kart, new super mario bros. wii etc. that have global appeal and release some of the more minor games if you have made them for testing purposes anyway but dont overspend money on it. and get rid of the blockbuster type games that dont sell (i.e. zelda and metroid)

Skyward Sword is sitting at 3.5 million copies sold

Twilight Princess sold 8.2 million copies

Wind Waker sold 4.6 million.

The Prime games were all well over a million. Why are you acting like these games all bomb? I know some of the games you mentioned were in the tens of millions, but do you really think that if they released 3-5 Mario Karts every gen they'd all sell that well? Or remotely that well?

Making money is not Nintendo's problem. If Nintendo continuously cranked out casual titles, how do you think that would work? Even crossover casual/core titles? How's the Guitar Hero franchise doing? What about DDR? When Nintendo stops making Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Smash games, it is going to lose about 30 million fans.
 

Alexios

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no monster hunter is a different beast because its a game that is very important in the japanese market and sold over 3 million on psp alone. its importance at the moment in the japanese moment exceeds that of final fantasy and is on par with dragon quest. bayonetta did not sell that kind of number and its significance is negligable in comparison.
But the market is global and MonHun (and DQ, add that to the pile!) doesn't hold a candle to Nintendo's biggest IP so my point stands. They're neither first party, nor close to Nintendo IP in sales. Keep moving them goal posts. Smaller games like Bayonetta (and it's not like we're talking Muramasa small here, sales are respectable) can add up. Just like MH and DQ can add up even though they're so much lesser than Mario and co. Bayonetta 2 itself may not do 5 million like a MonHun or DQ but 5 games in that vein attracted from that one being on there could (globally). Add 10-20 more over the system's life time and you have potentially a good chunk of fans acquired. Catering to niches isn't only good for tiny companies. Whether it works out or not is a different matter to not seeing any potential whatsoever in that. And it's not like they're giving them the budget and moneyhat that a HD DQ would need for these games. You seem to be terrified of Nintendo losing money on this. Why not wait and see what happens? You don't even know how much it needs to sell for them to make money (or at least not lose any). Yet you pretend you already know all this for a fact, when nowhere has it been said Bayonetta lost money overall.
 

farnham

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It tells nothing of the sort, it's only telling about the shitty financial situation Sega is in.

1. if bayonetta was such a big ip they would cling on it in a dire situation.
2. maybe funding games like bayonetta brought sega in the situation in the first place.

But WiiSports didn't necessarily make people who like games like Bayonetta 2 happy. It's a good thing to try to make a variety of different kinds of gamers happy instead of focusing on just the most popular shit. In a situation where publishers only, we get into a situation like what we have now with western games. One shitty CoD or a copy of CoD after another. A varied game library is a good thing from a gamers POV, no matter if not all of that is as popular as WiiSports.
how many are there (me included). not many.
Your logic is like saying movie makers should stop filming not-as-successful smaller movies and focus all their efforst into Transformers, since Transformers are the more popular movies. Movies like Lost in Translation are just money & workforce away from MOAR TRANSFORMERS.
lost in translation was pretty successful it had a budget of 4 million and made 120 million
I mean, don't you see how idiotic that would be?

Nintendo has, like, dozens & dozens of billions in the bank. A relatively small effort like Bayonetta 2 (Platinum Games is an efficient & relatively small developer, their budget for Bayonetta was quite likely a shitton smaller than, say, Devil May Cry 4's) ain't gonna bankrupt them or make other games' budgets suffer. There's a limit in how much they can put into their own R&D, the rest can be used to hire 3rd parties so that they have a healthy stream of exclusive game releases throughout the years.

even dozens of dozens of billions is not unlimited amount of money. if nintendo spends the money its not going to be invested on other projects.



Uh... no they didn't, especially not with GC or Wii, they both got a lot of 3rd party support. Sure, their games sold the most, but in the long run it wouldn't be healthy for their platforms if they were 1st party only. But... yeah, had their release calendar showed one Mario and WiiSports for a whole year, there's no way it would've been a healthy platform.
indeed their games sold most so they need to focus on that. loosing focus on first party will make them weaker.
But the market is global and MonHun doesn't hold a candle to Nintendo's IP so my point stands.

Also you didn't respond to most of my points.

but its definately more important than bayonetta 2

Skyward Sword is sitting at 3.5 million copies sold

Twilight Princess sold 8.2 million copies

Wind Waker sold 4.6 million.

The Prime games were all well over a million. Why are you acting like these games all bomb? I know some of the games you mentioned were in the tens of millions, but do you really think that if they released 3-5 Mario Karts every gen they'd all sell that well? Or remotely that well?

Making money is not Nintendo's problem. If Nintendo continuously cranked out casual titles, how do you think that would work? Even crossover casual/core titles? How's the Guitar Hero franchise doing? What about DDR? When Nintendo stops making Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Smash games, it is going to lose about 30 million fans.
i dont know cod seems to have no problem with annual releases
 

Famassu

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did ms sue tecmo after they released sigma 2 on ps3? i doubt nintendo will do the same with a potential bayonetta sigma 2 as that would do them more harm then good.
lip service is no real game development. that kind of comments are the same as yves guilmont saying that he loves the wiiu or xbox 360 or ps3 or 3ds or...
Why do you keep ignoring the main points and just get stuck with some side-sentence? I just mentioned that Kamiya & Co are huge fans of Nintendo so they'd very likely choose to continue that working-relationship if given the possibility.

Still, my main point was that your whole "jumping ship" crap is childish fanboy crap. Platinum Games will work for whoever gives them money. That's the world of istill ndependent game developers. They don't have any childish notions of any kind of brand loyalty. Especially Platinum Games, they are just focused on making fun-as-hell games. I don't think they care much where the pay-check comes, as long as they can make the kind of games they like.

if bayonetta 2 does okay on wiiu they will probably be interested

if not nobody will care and nintendo will have lost money
I care, if it's even remotely as good as the first Bayonetta. A lot of old (& new, I'm sure) Bayonetta fans care. They are getting a sequel to a franchise they like. No one sane gives a shit about Nintendo losing a bit of money if Bayonetta 2 isn't too successful, anyone sane will be happy that Bayonetta 2 EXISTS, when it was already cancelled at one point.

It also gives me some goodwill towards Nintendo so I'm a bit more likely to forgive them for ever investing their time & money on some of the worst shit in the world (see: WiiMusic)
 

farnham

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Why do you keep ignoring the main points and just get stuck with some side-sentence? I just mentioned that Kamiya & Co are huge fans of Nintendo so they'd very likely choose to continue that working-relationship if given the possibility.

Still, my main point was that your whole "jumping ship" crap is childish fanboy crap. Platinum Games will work for whoever gives them money. That's the world of istill ndependent game developers. They don't have any childish notions of any kind of brand loyalty. Especially Platinum Games, they are just focused on making fun-as-hell games. I don't think they care much where the pay-check comes, as long as they can make the kind of games they like.
I care, if it's even remotely as good as the first Bayonetta. A lot of old (& new, I'm sure) Bayonetta fans care. They are getting a sequel to a franchise they like. No one sane gives a shit about Nintendo losing a bit of money if Bayonetta 2 isn't too successful, anyone sane will be happy that Bayonetta 2 EXISTS, when it was already cancelled at one point.
great a small part of the community will be happy. doesnt mean its a good decision.

also nintendo is a company not a charity. if they loose money and get a bankrupt we will not be getting any nintendo games anymore. and bad buisiness decisions, which i believe this kind of subsidizing could be, will lead to such.

It also gives me some goodwill towards Nintendo so I'm a bit more likely to forgive them for ever investing their time & money on some of the worst shit in the world (see: WiiMusic)
you sir, take that back. wii music is a good game. it had a bad music list and it was sad that they didnt put in a music sharing feature like in jam in the band but the groundwork of it was really solid. they only had to flesh it out more.
Do you really think that was his key point?

if you are asking if they should stop making games that are not proven to be successful then i say no..

they should absolutely put out games that nobody knows how those will sell. who knows if its a homerun or if its a failure.

but they should do it with first party software

Why do you keep ignoring the main points and just get stuck with some side-sentence? I just mentioned that Kamiya & Co are huge fans of Nintendo so they'd very likely choose to continue that working-relationship if given the possibility.
while this is a cute comment from them

kojima said the same and i never saw a game from him on wii..

that kind of comments are lip service nothing more
 

gogogow

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while this is a cute comment from them

kojima said the same and i never saw a game from him on wii..

that kind of comments are lip service nothing more

Cool about Kojima and totally irrelevant since PG, Kamiya are actually making/made games (Mad World, Bayonetta 2, The Wonderful 101, Infinite Space) for Nintendo systems, so what's your point again?
 

farnham

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But the market is global and MonHun (and DQ, add that to the pile!) doesn't hold a candle to Nintendo's biggest IP so my point stands. Smaller games like Bayonetta (and it's not like we're talking Muramasa small here, sales are respectable) can add up. Bayonetta 2 itself may not do 5 million like a MonHun or DQ but 5 games in that vein attracted from that one being on there could (globally). Add 10-20 more over the system's life time and you have potentially a good chunk of fans acquired. Catering to niches isn't only good for tiny companies. Whether it works out or not is a different matter to not seeing any potential whatsoever in that. And it's not like they're giving them the budget and moneyhat that a HD DQ would need for these games. You seem to be terrified of Nintendo losing money on this. Why not wait and see what happens? You don't even know how much it needs to sell for them to make money (or at least not lose any). Yet you pretend you already know all this for a fact, when nowhere has it been said Bayonetta lost money overall.

so what you are saying is that nintendo should go moneyhatting developers like MS did with japanese devs....
1. MS is way better with that strategy
2. that didnt really help anyone. xbox360 still failed in japan and HD games like tales of vesperia or last odyssey were bound to xbox and couldnt realize their sales potential.
 

Ridley327

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Feb 7, 2005
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maybe because omega force makes bad musou games for years and sales numbers dont justify them like they did in ps2 days and team ninja in general seems to be going down the shitter.


and bandai namco has a lot of manga IPs that they could use as a sales guarantee combined with platinum gameplay

If K-T cared about how good or bad the Musou games are, they wouldn't A) keep making them and B) they wouldn't be licensing mega IPs like Gundam, Fist of the North Star, or One Piece in the first place. Musou sells regardless of the quality, and you certainly aren't going to need Platinum to work on a game like that when Omega Force already can pump out two or three a year. Getting Platinum on it gets you, what, maybe one more a year? How worthless is that?

I think about the only argument that you have for Platinum shoring up with K-T is that like K-T, Platinum works fast and cheap, but I don't see K-T having a dire need for another developer that can do that, and they're already working with motherfucking Spark Unlimited on the next Ninja Gaiden game.
 
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Nintendo would be fucked it they listened to your ideas Farnham. They pretty much have to rely on themselves to keep their platforms alive and that won't happen if they only make a couple of different games.

It doesn't matter if zelda and bayonetta don't sell as much as mario kart or wii sports, it adds diversity to their line-up. That allows them to sell to a wider variety of people. Furthermore it stops them from diluting their brand and that's why nintendos IP's remain so strong.

Not only would following your logic narrow down the amount of customers they reach by a huge amount it would aslo greatly weaken their IP's which would be terrible both in the long and short term.

Just because COD can sell big numbers with yearly releases doesn't mean any game can (the online MP market especially for shooters is completely different to the demographics nintendo target).
 

farnham

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Nov 18, 2006
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Cool about Kojima and totally irrelevant since PG, Kamiya are actually making/made games (Mad World, Bayonetta 2, The Wonderful 101, Infinite Space) for Nintendo systems, so what's your point again?

my point is that kamiya may make such public comments to improve his relations with nintendo but that doesnt mean much.

PG made madworld and infinite space, both good games, both failed hard and PG didnt give a crap about nintendo platforms until they felt the heat of HD development cost and needed some financial backing from someone with money. looks like they found konami and nintendo for the moment. if the opportunity comes financially they will go develop for 720 or ps4. its their right to do so. but i dont think its a good idea for nintendo to money hat them since nintendo should invest that money otherwise (for example in expanding their first party development).

thats all what im saying
 

Tenki

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Not in Best Korea :(
twitter.com
also nintendo is a company not a charity. if they loose money and get a bankrupt we will not be getting any nintendo games anymore. and bad buisiness decisions, which i believe this kind of subsidizing could be, will lead to such.

Nintendo won't go bankrupt if Bayo2 bombs. Even if Bayo 2 don't sell a single copy, Iwata isn't going to live under a bridge.
 

Famassu

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1. if bayonetta was such a big ip they would cling on it in a dire situation.
*sigh* they are having trouble even printing physical copies of their games, let alone developing big games. I'm sure SEGA will get a bit of money from licencing it to Nintendo, so it's a win-win situation for everybody (Nintendo gets a potentially GOTG-level game for Wii U, giving it some recognition among gamers, SEGA doesn't have to pay for its development, Platinum Games employees aren't out of a job and gamers get one hell of a game, I'm sure).

Bayonetta was clearly a big enough IP that they decided to start the development of a sequel, it's just not big enough to keep developing when the whole company is falling apart.

2. maybe funding games like bayonetta brought sega in the situation in the first place.
So you think they should've just focused on more Sonic? Funding games like Bayonetta & Vanquish was the best decision SEGA has made in years and the gaming world is better for it. It's too bad it didn't pay out (though, the first Bayonetta sold over a million copies, so it wasn't some super-bombaaah), but that's the game market/industry of today for you.

how many are there (me included). not many.
Nothing compared to Marios, I'm sure, but that's not important. You're basically saying no one else is worth considering but Mario & WiiSports fans. I'm so happy you're not in charge of any publisher.

lost in translation was pretty successful it had a budget of 4 million and made 120 million
But it wasn't AS successful as Transformers, also, I'm sure no one expected it to be as successful as it was, so if you were in charge the movie would probably never have been made, since you can't expect such small movies to become such big hits. Therefore, by your logic, the movie shouldn't have been made. Though, I have to confess I didn't know it was so successful, so I probably should've picked a better example. My point still stands. By your logic no film studio should do anything else but Transformers, Batmans and Lord of the Rings.


even dozens of dozens of billions is not unlimited amount of money. if nintendo spends the money its not going to be invested on other projects.
And what are these other projects that you so desperately want to be funded that aren't because of Bayonetta 2? I'm sure there are none. Also, WiiSports would not get a bigger budget & more mini-games even if Bayonetta 2 didn't exist. The amount of money they have is not limitless, but it's still so much money that they could probably continue releasing a game with the budget of Bayonetta 2 every year for the next 1000 years and they still wouldn't go bankrupt even if they didn't make any money off of it.



indeed their games sold most so they need to focus on that. loosing focus on first party will make them weaker.
How is funding Bayonetta 2 "losing focus on first party"? That's some idiotic crap right there.
 

farnham

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Nov 18, 2006
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Nintendo would be fucked it they listened to your ideas Farnham. They pretty much have to rely on themselves to keep their platforms alive and that won't happen if they only make a couple of different games.

It doesn't matter if zelda and bayonetta don't sell as much as mario kart or wii sports, it adds diversity to their line-up. That allows them to sell to a wider variety of people. Furthermore it stops them from diluting their brand and that's why nintendos IP's remain so strong.

Not only would following your logic narrow down the amount of customers they reach by a huge amount it would aslo greatly weaken their IP's which would be terrible both in the long and short term.

Just because COD can sell big numbers with yearly releases doesn't mean any game can (the online MP market especially for shooters is completely different to the demographics nintendo target).
im not saying that they shouldnt make a diversity of games.

im saying that they shouldnt invest too much in their franchises that are proven to be fading away (zelda metroid) and they should expand their first party and while investing more in those games that showed the tendency to actually sell more they should release a variety of new games since there is a chance that those might become million sellers and nintendo will benefit from it.

with third party titles they will probably go multiplatform if there are successful so they should not invest too much money into it.

Nintendo won't go bankrupt if Bayo2 bombs. Even if Bayo 2 don't sell a single copy, Iwata isn't going to live under a bridge.

yes but i hope thats not the start of a new moneyhatting trend
because that is costly and ineffective
 
Feb 28, 2012
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im not saying that they shouldnt make a diversity of games.

im saying that they shouldnt invest too much in their franchises that are proven to be fading away (zelda metroid) and they should expand their first party and while investing more in those games that showed the tendency to actually sell more they should release a variety of new games since there is a chance that those might become million sellers and nintendo will benefit from it.

with third party titles they will probably go multiplatform if there are successful so they should not invest too much money into it.



yes but i hope thats not the start of a new moneyhatting trend
because that is costly and ineffective

I wasn't aware that the Zelda franchise was "proven to be fading away".
 

jerd

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Jun 4, 2012
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yes but i hope thats not the start of a new moneyhatting trend
because that is costly and ineffective

Yet their fans love it. Farnham, you are so glued to these numbers that you are looking at absolutely nothing else. What if Nintendo launched a console promising no more IPs like Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Smash, Kirby, DK, Pikmin, but only a focus on party games and mini games. How many console sales do you think that would cost them?
 

farnham

Banned
Nov 18, 2006
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*sigh* they are having trouble even printing physical copies of their games, let alone developing big games. I'm sure SEGA will get a bit of money from licencing it to Nintendo, so it's a win-win situation for everybody (Nintendo gets a potentially GOTG-level game for Wii U, giving it some recognition among gamers, SEGA doesn't have to pay for its development, Platinum Games employees aren't out of a job and gamers get one hell of a game, I'm sure).

Bayonetta was clearly a big enough IP that they decided to start the development of a sequel, it's just not big enough to keep developing when the whole company is falling apart.

So you think they should've just focused on more Sonic? Funding games like Bayonetta & Vanquish was the best decision SEGA has made in years and the gaming world is better for it. It's too bad it didn't pay out (though, the first Bayonetta sold over a million copies, so it wasn't some super-bombaaah), but that's the game market/industry of today for you.

Nothing compared to Marios, I'm sure, but that's not important. You're basically saying no one else is worth considering but Mario & WiiSports fans. I'm so happy you're not in charge of any publisher.

But it wasn't AS successful as Transformers, also, I'm sure no one expected it to be as successful as it was, so if you were in charge the movie would probably never have been made, since you can't expect such small movies to become such big hits. Therefore, by your logic, the movie shouldn't have been made. Though, I have to confess I didn't know it was so successful, so I probably should've picked a better example. My point still stands. By your logic no film studio should do anything else but Transformers, Batmans and Lord of the Rings.



And what are these other projects that you so desperately want to be funded that aren't because of Bayonetta 2? I'm sure there are none. Also, WiiSports would not get a bigger budget & more mini-games even if Bayonetta 2 didn't exist. The amount of money they have is not limitless, but it's still so much money that they could probably continue releasing a game with the budget of Bayonetta 2 every year for the next 1000 years and they still wouldn't go bankrupt even if they didn't make any money off of it.




How is funding Bayonetta 2 "losing focus on first party"? That's some idiotic crap right there.

i think you are misunderstanding me

1. i dont think nintendo should only make wii__ titles or mario titles. i think they should invest more in those titles however. they sell a shit ton of them and relatively speaking the budget doesnt look to be that big for those titles (except of mario galaxy)

2. i think nintendo should invest in a lot of experimental titles. they have a long track record of little demo type games blowing up and getting into million seller territory. they should keep doing that. but thats for first party. paying a third party to do such thing is not a good idea unless you buy the IP as a whole from them (like with eternal darkness for example)

3. i think nintendo should lower their investments in titles like zelda or metroid that are showing a downward trend and that are suffering from lack of ideas. zelda oot and metroid prime were great games that came after the respective franchises had a long break. its time for a generational break for those titles imho

4. moneyhatting third parties makes sense in very limited certain cases where the title can be crucial for the survival or success of one platform in one region. for japan that would be dragon quest, final fantasy or monster hunter..
I wasn't aware that the Zelda franchise was "proven to be fading away".

look at the sales of skyward sword compared to twilight princess or spirit tracks compared to phantom hourglass
Yet their fans love it. Farnham, you are so glued to these numbers that you are looking at absolutely nothing else. What if Nintendo launched a console promising no more IPs like Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Smash, Kirby, DK, Pikmin, but only a focus on party games and mini games. How many console sales do you think that would cost them?
i dont know what you are talking about. i never said to focus solely on party games.
 
Aug 30, 2007
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im not saying that they shouldnt make a diversity of games.

im saying that they shouldnt invest too much in their franchises that are proven to be fading away (zelda metroid) and they should expand their first party and while investing more in those games that showed the tendency to actually sell more they should release a variety of new games since there is a chance that those might become million sellers and nintendo will benefit from it.

with third party titles they will probably go multiplatform if there are successful so they should not invest too much money into it.

Zelda is not fading away at all and i think the next one on the wii U will actually perform very well, it's one of the franchises nintendo have that will greatly benefit from going to HD (ironically i think metroid is one of the others).

Also you are suggesting they make less diversity. In the zelda thread you specifically said that instead of making a zelda game they should have made 8+ sequels in the wii_X series.

You also seem to have no idea of how difficult it is to lanuch a successful new IP. How often do you think a new IP starts that is as big as the zelda franchise is?
 

gogogow

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Nov 10, 2004
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my point is that kamiya may make such public comments to improve his relations with nintendo but that doesnt mean much.

PG made madworld and infinite space, both good games, both failed hard and PG didnt give a crap about nintendo platforms until they felt the heat of HD development cost and needed some financial backing from someone with money. looks like they found konami and nintendo for the moment. if the opportunity comes financially they will go develop for 720 or ps4. its their right to do so. but i dont think its a good idea for nintendo to money hat them since nintendo should invest that money otherwise (for example in expanding their first party development).

thats all what im saying

I don't think you know Kamiya too well, if you think he says those things to "improve" his relations with Nintendo (what public comments again? serious question). He literally says whatever he wants, he also said he didn't like the new Zelda's anymore after playing WW and called it boring (too few dungeons, boring collecting) and said he stopped playing the games and isn't a fan anymore.

And actually, Kojima approached Inaba about MGSR, not the other way round, because there was no progress at KP with the game.
 
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look at the sales of skyward sword compared to twilight princess or spirit tracks compared to phantom hourglass

This tends to be the case with sequels released on the same hardware as their predecessor (which you want them to do more of) especially when the game is of lower quality.

The next zelda on wii U will sell comfortably more than SS did.
 

farnham

Banned
Nov 18, 2006
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This tends to be the case with sequels released on the same hardware as their predecessor (which you want them to do more of) especially when the game is of lower quality.

The next zelda on wii U will sell comfortably more than SS did.

that will be no feat

Look at the sales of Wii Play: Motion compared to Wii Play. Please.

wii play motion did not have the same level of marketing as wii play had.

and if you are suggesting wii fit 3 and wii sports 3 will sell like wii play motion did that will be desastrous for nintendo.

Zelda is not fading away at all and i think the next one on the wii U will actually perform very well, it's one of the franchises nintendo have that will greatly benefit from going to HD (ironically i think metroid is one of the others).

Also you are suggesting they make less diversity. In the zelda thread you specifically said that instead of making a zelda game they should have made 8+ sequels in the wii_X series.

You also seem to have no idea of how difficult it is to lanuch a successful new IP. How often do you think a new IP starts that is as big as the zelda franchise is?



i am saying that zeldas development costs are too bloated and they could make more smaller games with that budget.

they dont necessarily need to be named wii__x

i was also thinking of titles like tomodatchi collection

nintendo seems to have a lot of such titles that are in concept demo stage but never see the light of day because they dont get developed into a product.
 
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