Belgium bans kosher and halal animal slaughtering methods

Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#51
I am not crying.

Furthermore I showed you over and over again how this 84% is bullshit and that Animals are still alive but your only reaction to this are not arguments but rather stupid gifs and a mimimi reply. You want to win an argumentation showing me how wrong I am do it with evidence. This is not how you debate a topic. So I guess we end it here before I fall down to your level.

Have a nice day
 

AfricanKing

Gold Member
Jul 16, 2017
1,146
805
345
#52
I am not crying.

Furthermore I showed you over and over again how this 84% is bullshit and that Animals are still alive but your only reaction to this are not arguments but rather stupid gifs and a mimimi reply. You want to win an argumentation showing me how wrong I am do it with evidence. This is not how you debate a topic. So I guess we end it here before I fall down to your level.

Have a nice day
Stunning and religious slaughter can work together

In the UK, 84 per cent of Halal meat comes from animals which have been stunned before slaughter and certified Halal highlighting that stunning and slaughter for religious purposes can work together.
RSPCA have not issue with it

But your anti Islam meltdown is pure gold at this point

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#53
RSPCA have not issue with it

But your anti Islam meltdown is pure gold at this point

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
THEY ARE ALIVE AFTER STUNNING SO NO IT DOES NOT COME TOGETHER. It does mean jackshit if they are still alive.

Again it is accepted because of religion and no other reason

However, exemptions are allowed that permit non-stun slaughter for religious purposes, i.e. Muslim and Jewish communities.

We acknowledge that religious beliefs and practices should be respected
 
Last edited:

AfricanKing

Gold Member
Jul 16, 2017
1,146
805
345
#54
THEY ARE ALIVE AFTER STUNNING SO NO IT DOES NOT COME TOGETHER. It does meanjackshit if they are still alive.

Again it is accepted because of religion and no other reason
Sure .. like you care how animals are killed anything to rail against Islam for you pal.

But please keep on having a meltdown
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#55
Sure .. like you care how animals are killed anything to rail against Islam for you pal.

But please keep on having a meltdown
I care about upholding regulations an actually laws and exceptions because of religion should not be accepted. You want halal meat? Sure change the regulations that everyone can make animals suffer and not only religious people. But this will not work because you had organisations all up your ass. It is only accepted because of a fucking ideology
 
Last edited:

AfricanKing

Gold Member
Jul 16, 2017
1,146
805
345
#56
I care about upholding regulations an actually laws and exceptions because of religion should not be accepted. You want halal meat? Sure change the regulations that everyone can make animals suffer and not only religious people. But this will not work because you had organisations all up your ass. It is only accepted because of a fucking ideology
 
Aug 15, 2018
661
539
205
#63
Causing unnecessary harm to an animal is wrong. From what I read and understand on what is done for halal (I don't know too much obviously) the animal is bled out. It seems many halal slaughters are done by stunning the animal beforehand. I don't really see an issue with bleeding out or gutting the animal if it is in a knocked out or in a state where it feels little to no pain.

Also consider the fact that the creature is simply that, a creature. It is property that belongs to someone. It was bred simply to feed people. It has no rational mind and soul, it does have certain emotions and feelings to an extent but it really is just a dumb animal. It exists simply to serve this purpose. Giving it excessive pain is cruel as it is a living thing, but killing it in a way without giving it agony is not wrong.

I admit I know little to nothing about halal and muslim culture in general. I could be wrong and the slaughter could be excruciating. I would like to see how slitting the carotid artery and other important arteries and vessels affect animals before their last breath. Does slitting the throat cause much pain and how fast is the death? Are the animals wide awake or not?
 
Jul 7, 2005
1,362
1
1,115
Philly
#64
If we are to eat meat, let's kill the animal quickly and painfully. No need to bleed to them to death, right? Especially because of 2000 year old tales and stories. Should be quite simple.
 
Feb 22, 2018
1,740
1,951
325
#66
There is a difference in having your throat slit and slowly bleeding out over minutes, vs dying in 2-3 seconds, methods industrial slaughterhouses use. Not all deaths are created equal, despite the outcome.

I used to work in an old fashioned slaughter house with transitional equipment. Minimizing the terror these animals experience both in duration and foreknowledge is preferred. Pigs squeal like children when they see a knife go for their neck, before you even cut. A device that beheads them instantly from above that they can't see is basically zero pain or terror. Likewise, a gas powered slug to the skull knocks them out instantly.

These primitive religions mutilate the sexual organs of baby boys and girls. They should not be in charge of farms with livestock. They should not be allowed much practical utility in modern society.
 

AfricanKing

Gold Member
Jul 16, 2017
1,146
805
345
#67
A couple of things I've noticed in this thread:

When defeated by logic and references, just resort to infantile levels of arrogance and labelling the other guy '-phobic'.

Many seem to handwave away the kosher aspect of this law.
Nah his defiantly suffering islamaphobia. This is a thread about food ..

FOOD!

edit: It seems that most halal meat in Germany is being imported and I think this also should be fucking outlawed. If you do not like Europe and its laws and regulations you are free to go.
Islam is the most radical and most dangerous ideology on our planet right now and we need to fight this radicalism at least in our countries.
What we right now need in Europe are CLEAR messages regarding the ISLAM
Islam how it is today has no place in a civilized country. IT needs reforms but as long the radical Islam is growing this is not happening at all. Especially when for example the biggest Muslim organization in Germany is Erdogans follower and plaything. If we do not do something REALLY fast in Europe. The European freedom is lost in a few decades.
PS: It is fucking ridiculous as well that they have to chant a prayer while doing this horrible act to make it halal. This kind of stuff has no place in Europe.
And yeah shouting Allah Akbar the same shit terrorist shout during a attack is totally fine with you to show how fucking great your pedophile and warmonger prophet Mohammed was.
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#68
Nah his defiantly suffering islamaphobia. This is a thread about food ..

FOOD!
I am sorry but you personally asked why i am against mulims and why i care so much. I answered your question and nothing else

And no this is not about food but religious practises that are normally not confirm with Our regulations.
 
Last edited:
Dec 15, 2011
2,189
3,583
535
#69
Nah his defiantly suffering islamaphobia.
No. You lost your logical argument and so are now going in full ad hominem.

I notice how your reply completely ignores the second observation I made, thus substantiating it.
By your logic, that gives me licence to label you anti-something-or-other.

Are you, by any chance, a member of a Woman's March chapter?
 
Last edited:
Apr 3, 2018
1,340
608
250
#71
IT is only allowed because of a fucking religion there is no other reason for it and EVERYONE else has to follow the normal regulations. And yeah shouting Allah Akbar the same shit terrorist shout during a attack is totally fine with you to show how fucking great your pedophile and warmonger prophet Mohammed was.

If you accept such cruelty I hope you are just not part of the EU. But actually American who has no fucking clue what is going on here anyway. So yeah tough shit. In the end I approve of this and I hope other EU countries will follow this.
Hahahaha damn bro, take a breath. Just put the laptop down for a few seconds, and breathe. Inhale through your nose, exhale through your mouth.....
 
Likes: AfricanKing
Apr 3, 2018
1,340
608
250
#72
No. You lost your logical argument and so are now going in full ad hominem.

I notice how your reply completely ignores the second observation I made, thus substantiating it.
By your logic, that gives me licence to label you anti-something-or-other.

Are you, by any chance, a member of a Woman's March chapter?
Well @Dunki seems to hate halal slaughter, but has no issue with kosher slaughter, when they are literally the same technique. So there's a bit of a bias at play here, wouldn't you think?

Oh and then he started assuming @AfricanKing must be a muslim so his go to retort was to call the prophet of his religion a "pedophile and war monger". So definite bias here? Some clear bigotry or are these signs of an objective thought process in your opinion?
 

AfricanKing

Gold Member
Jul 16, 2017
1,146
805
345
#73
I thought it was about banning religious slaughtering methods in Belgium. Methods which animal-rights groups (and many other) have deemed cruel and unnecessary.
The RSPCA here in the UK say it's okay, I've posted that above .

No. You lost your logical argument and so are now going in full ad hominem.

I notice how your reply completely ignores the second observation I made, thus substantiating it.
By your logic, that gives me licence to label you anti-something-or-other.

Are you, by any chance, a member of a Woman's March chapter?
Nah my points are clear and simple . The law allows it where I am . And I managed to say all that without going off on a crazed tangon about Islam.

Woman's March Chapter?

Explain
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#75
Well @Dunki seems to hate halal slaughter, but has no issue with kosher slaughter, when they are literally the same technique. So there's a bit of a bias at play here, wouldn't you think?
I said that I do not know how kosher works but if its the same it should also not be allowed. I also said that I never heard anyting about this from jewish people because most of them in Europe do not care. If I hear about such practices it is only on the Muslim side.


The RSPCA here in the UK say it's okay, I've posted that above .
It is okay because of religious reasons and nothing else.... religious freedom seems to be a bigger deal than following our laws and regulations. It is an exception.
 
Apr 3, 2018
1,340
608
250
#77
I said that I do not know how kosher works but if its the same it should also not be allowed. I also said that I never heard anyting about this from jewish people because most of them in Europe do not care. If I hear about such practices it is only on the Muslim side.




It is okay because of religious reasons and nothing else.... religious freedom seems to be a bigger deal than following our laws and regulations. It is an exception.
The OP shows that various muslim and jewish groups are appealing the law in Belgium.

And are you implying European jews don't eat kosher?
 
Jul 7, 2005
1,362
1
1,115
Philly
#78
The RSPCA here in the UK say it's okay, I've posted that above .
Not sure what your comment has to do with mine as I was talking about this topic and saying that it is not about food, but Belgium banning religious slaughtering methods. Therefore it is more about religion than food.

It doesn't really matter what RSPCA says. Halal and Kosher slaughtering is still cruel as long as the animal is alive. Or what do you think? To make it easier, see below options:
1. Animal bleeds to death.
2. Animal is killed instantly.

Which one is more cruel?

Edit: Good that in UK they have at least a little bit less cruel method with the pre-stunning. Next step is to get rid of religious slaughtering completely.
 
Last edited:
Jan 21, 2018
539
445
230
Republic of Catalonia
#81
Nah his defiantly suffering islamaphobia. This is a thread about food ..

FOOD!
You have to be really obtuse to pretend this thread is just about "food".

This thread is about western societies drawing a line between respecting religious beliefs but at the same time not letting that the barbaric acts made by those who have religious beliefs are tolerated.

Bleeding an animal to death just because Allah tells you so, is one of those things western societies can't let it happen.

Of course muslims and muslims apologists are going to cry that they are being targeted, we are accustomed at their level of victimization.

But you know what? Doesn't matter, your religion is not the law. Accept that and move on.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Dunki
Feb 2, 2018
454
416
225
#82
This is just a personal opinion, but brutal and medieval methods should be banned no matter where they come from. Killing animals in a religious way should be forbidden because it is a perverse way of killing animals. In most cases they should not feel any pain because of electronarcosis etc., but they still bleed to death while being alive.

On the other hand people have to admit that conventional killing methods and the especially the keeping of animals often are not any better. But personally i'm just not into the "let's do it this way because hundreds of years ago someone wrote this on this piece of paper" thing.
 
Jan 21, 2018
539
445
230
Republic of Catalonia
#84
'Seems to hate..'
Then you make a further point based on a perceived assumption. :unsure:

Good to know we're engineering discussion of this to -phobia labels and talk of hate.

I guess it's not the officially sanctioned right kind of hate, so that's that.
The funny thing is implying islamophobia is something wrong.

It's like being called a Naziphobe implying that's a bad thing.

Can anybody look at the horrible and despicable teachings of Islam and say that those ideas aren't barbaric and fundamentally evil, supremacistic and tyrannical?

Just look how every country based on islam operates and you will see a sick society. Ironically Islam is the worst thing that ever happened to the arab world.

Islam needs a reformation so it can be compatible with human rights, basic laws and everything else we take for granted in western societies. Right now islam still lives in the middle ages.
 
Likes: bad guy
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#86
The OP shows that various muslim and jewish groups are appealing the law in Belgium.

And are you implying European jews don't eat kosher?
The vast majority certainly is not. Again Jewish people in Europe are not radical or fundamentalists. So no it is not a big deal at least in Germany.
 
Nov 20, 2018
486
445
235
#87
This is a good change, not sure about the Jewish methods, but the Muslim way of killing the animals is one of the most painful ways possible. The animal sees and feels the pain before suffocating to a slow death in confusion. Would be great to ban it everywhere where they dont stun them.
 
Feb 2, 2018
454
416
225
#88
This is a good change, not sure about the Jewish methods, but the Muslim way of killing the animals is one of the most painful ways possible. The animal sees and feels the pain before suffocating to a slow death in confusion. Would be great to ban it everywhere where they dont stun them.
That is not true. At least you have to differentiate between countries part of the western society and others. For the latter what you said is completely true, but in most EU countries, the US and some others the animals will often be stunned (~85% of the animals) before they will be killed.
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#90
That is not true. At least you have to differentiate between countries part of the western society and others. For the latter what you said is completely true, but in most EU countries, the US and some others the animals will often be stunned (~85% of the animals) before they will be killed.
Normally they will be stun killed. With Halal they only will be stunned so they can not move anymore. they are still alive while hanging to bleed out. With normal practices they are dead before slaughtering them
 
Feb 2, 2018
454
416
225
#91
Normally they will be stun killed. With Halal they only will be stunned so they can not move anymore. they are still alive while hanging to bleed out. With normal practices they are dead before slaughtering them
Where did you get this information?

I mean i'm absolutely not a fan of religious medieval slaughter, but what you said don't seem to be accurate IF and only IF the animals where stunned previously.

Study about different slaughtering methods said:
I – Islamic Method

  1. The first three seconds from the time of Islamic slaughter as recorded on the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus indicating that the animal did not feel any pain during or immediately after the incision.
  2. For the following 3 seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deep sleep – unconsciousness. This is due to the large quantity of blood gushing out from the body.
  3. After the above-mentioned 6 seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.
  4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving a maximum amount of blood from the body thus resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.
II – Western method by C.B.P. Stunning

  1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
  2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.
  3. The hearts of animals stunned by C.B.P. stopped beating earlier as compared to those of the animals slaughtered according to the Islamic method resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.
https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=15608



The researchers then showed that the pain originates from cutting throat nerves, not from the loss of blood, suggesting the severed nerves send pain signals until the time of death. Finally, they stunned animals 5 seconds after incision and showed that this makes the pain signal disappear instantly.

“It wasn’t a surprise to me, but in terms of the religious community, they are adamant animals don’t experience any pain, so the results might be a surprise to them,” says Johnson.

He praised Muslim dhabiha practitioners in New Zealand and elsewhere who have already adopted stunning prior to slaughter. They use a form of electrical stunning which animals quickly recover from if not slaughtered, proving that the stunned animal is “healthy”, thereby qualifying as halal.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter/
 
Last edited:

strange headache

Gif and Meme Champion
Jan 14, 2018
1,360
5,402
475
#93
This has nothing to do with Islamophobia or an attack on religion. Your religious freedom only extend so far as the law permits, so it's only logical to outlaw any practices that run contrary to current legislation. Many European countries have reformed their legislation in that regard, by recognizing animals as lifeforms who can feel suffering and pain. Hence why slaughtering practices have been regulated as to recognize an animal's right to not suffer needlessly.

Adhering to outdated practices for the mere sake of them being part of religious tradition is not an argument. So far, nobody who has been criticizing the Belgium ban has managed to formulate a cohesive argument as to why these religious practices should be upheld in the first place. European legislation is agnostic by definition and does not recognize "God's will" as a basis for legislative reform. When it comes to the advancement of animal rights, your purely subjective religious beliefs hold no ground because they have no inter-subjective raison d'être and cannot be expressed in a mutually agreeable manner.

Didn't know Islamophobia can tire someone out
While I don't agree with @Dunki 's emotional tone, I can certainly understand his frustration with your boneheaded dishonest rhetoric. You've failed to formulate even one single argument as to why these religious practices are necessary. Different people believe a lot of different things, so merely referencing religious dogma ain't sufficient to defend these archaic slaughtering practices in a pluralistic western society.

You wouldn't defend gender discrimination, or any other deplorable practices for religious reasons, would you? I mean, if my religious beliefs forbid blood transfusions (as is the case for Jehovah's Witnesses) it's not my right as a parent to let my children die an unnecessary death only because of my religious dogma. There's simply no reason to believe that things should be handled differently when it comes to slaughtering practices and food consumption.

Religious beliefs do not automatically supersede other ethical concerns such as animal rights. So instead of throwing around with accusation of Islamophobia how about you come up with an actual argument? As it stands you're merely coming across ass a condescending ignoramus who's not the slightest bit interested in actually discussing the legislative and ethical implications of this particular situation. You'd rather dismiss valid concerns with blind accusations because you're unable to formulate a cohesive argument on your own.
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#94
Where did you get this information?

I mean i'm absolutely not a fan of religious medieval slaughter, but what you said don't seem to be accurate IF and only IF the animals where stunned previously.



https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=15608





https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter/
Really we post now an islamic site hat shows how much more human and hygienic the islamic method is? Really?

Fact is normally you kill the animal this is the standard regulation in Europe. The slaughtering of living animals is only accepted because of religious freedom. Just like child marriages are accepted in Germany if they are done in another country. (luckily that has changed quite a bit in the last 2 years)

Fact is they are still alive after stunning with he islamic method and this is against EU regulations. As I said befoe. If you want halal meat then you should change these regulations completley so animals can still be alive after stunning. It is much less hassle fo slaughterhouses as well. But as I said before this would never fly here in Europe.
 
Last edited:
Apr 3, 2018
1,340
608
250
#95
The vast majority certainly is not. Again Jewish people in Europe are not radical or fundamentalists. So no it is not a big deal at least in Germany.
So are you saying Jews who abide kosher restrictions are radicals or fundamentalist?

Standard EU practice is that the animal is stunned before slaughter, which another poster already mentioned accounts for 85% of the meat slaughtered this way.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw2Kz5Bp6dr25VfE1AlIYhJ7&cshid=1546949695790
 
Oct 24, 2017
6,478
5,565
335
#97
Which EU regulation stipulates they must not be alive after stunning? I can't find it.
Animal welfare at slaughter

Staff at slaughterhouses must put a variety of procedures in place. For example, they must carry out regular checks to ensure that animals do not present any signs of consciousness or sensibility between the end of the stunning process and death.

Here is the problem. The animal is not alive for long with regular slaughering methods. with Halal you hang it up o bleed out while still being alive. Therefore medical checks are made to insure that the animal sis still alive until the religious process has been completed.
 
Last edited:
Dec 15, 2011
2,189
3,583
535
#99
I backed it up with his own quotes....
If this were as conclusive as you argue then you wouldn't need to use "seems to" in your assignment of hate.

For giggles, I've CTRL+F'd for "Hate" in this thread and the only times I get a result in a @Dunki comment is when they are quoting someone else accusing them of hate, or when they are using the term 'whatever'.

This is, of course, the way things go these days - invest effort on trying to classify thing as 'hate' or '-phobic' so it can be dismissed outright and faux-moral high-ground can be claimed.
 
Feb 2, 2018
454
416
225
Really we post now an islamic site hat shows how much more human and hygienic the islamic method is? Really?

Fact is normally you kill the animal this is the standard regulation in Europe. The slaughtering of living animals is only accepted because of religious freedom. Just like child marriages are accepted in Germany if they are done in another country. (luckily that has changed quite a bit in the last 2 years)

Fact is they are still alive after stunning with he islamic method and this is against EU regulations. As I said befoe. If you want halal meat then you should change these regulations completley so animals can still be alive after stunning. It is much less hassle fo slaughterhouses as well. But as I said before this would never fly here in Europe.
The study was done by Professor Schultz and his colleague Dr. Hazim of the Hanover University. The islamic site was just one of many site who cite this study.

During normal animal slaughter in the EU animals are also still alive and just unconscious. There is no difference.

But i have to say it again..."halal" killing methods without stunning the animal before should be forbidden in the EU. Unfortunately this is still the case for about 10-30% of the animals, depending on the country.

I really understand where you coming from and i'm absolutely against medieval methods of killing animals (stunned or not), but you have to go with the facts here.