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Berlin refugees given sexual consent classes

What should be done to make refugees stop raping german girls?

  • We should ask them politely to stop

    Votes: 5 7.0%
  • We should give them sexual consent classes (as in the article)

    Votes: 7 9.9%
  • We should do nothing and let those traumatised poor refugees funnel overbunded energy

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • We should choose handfull of young girls to volunteer be thiers sex slaves

    Votes: 9 12.7%
  • I don't know, maybe we should do somthing else?

    Votes: 48 67.6%

  • Total voters
    71

TarNaru33

Banned
Dec 13, 2013
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What additional information would need to be present for you to make a judgement on whether or not he’s a rapist? Give me some examples, ones that would not fundamentally change the premise of the hypothetical.

Unlikeliness doesn’t matter, at all. It can and does happen, which is all that is necessary for it to be considered.
I am not good with trying to make up hypothetical, however, information on what lead up to that drunken sex is extremely viable. We do not determine rape just because someone had sex, its determined by things that happened before, during, and after it. What happened after that drunken sex that caused the other party to believe it was rape? for example.

These things are specific and that is why we have courts, to find and examine all the information and make the best possible judgement with all of that in mind.

Again, this isn't perfect, nothing in this world is. People who are innocent will get burned and actual rapists/bad guys will get away.

I personally do not see how its hard to avoid having sex with an intoxicated person. If one thinks someone is out of it, avoid it. Of course this is hard to do if one is drunk as well, but it does not mitigate self-responsibility in avoiding possible rape.

We are talking about personal responsibility of the possible victim, but that does not mean responsibility should not be placed on the other party as well. The best way to avoid this scenario is for both sides to do their due diligence. I do not find it burdensome at all.
 

Whitesnake

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I am not good with trying to make up hypothetical, however, information on what lead up to that drunken sex is extremely viable. We do not determine rape just because someone had sex, its determined by things that happened before, during, and after it. What happened after that drunken sex that caused the other party to believe it was rape? for example.

These things are specific and that is why we have courts, to find and examine all the information and make the best possible judgement with all of that in mind.

Again, this isn't perfect, nothing in this world is. People who are innocent will get burned and actual rapists/bad guys will get away.

I personally do not see how its hard to avoid having sex with an intoxicated person. If one thinks someone is out of it, avoid it. Of course this is hard to do if one is drunk as well, but it does not mitigate self-responsibility in avoiding possible rape.

We are talking about personal responsibility of the possible victim, but that does not mean responsibility should not be placed on the other party as well. The best way to avoid this scenario is for both sides to do their due diligence. I do not find it burdensome at all.
I genuinely don’t understand what events could possibly occur that would retroactively turn consensual sex into rape.

I also don’t understand what events could occur that would automatically, proactively turn all following intercourse into rape, except for intentional drugging and maybe peer pressure.

My problem is that, with the idea that all sex with a drunk person is rape, people who haven’t really done anything wrong can be labeled “rapist” and potentially incarcerated without any ability to defend themselves. You say “well the courts will handle it”, as if “the courts” are a nebulous omniscient being that will always do the right thing. You realize a judge is even more fallible than written law, yes? Especially in sticky situations like the one being dsicussed, where it’s pretty much just up to whatever the judge feels like.

The idea that anyone who has ever had any intervourse with anyone who could be considered “intoxicated” is a rapist is retarded. It’s certainly not how the law should work.
 
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TarNaru33

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Dec 13, 2013
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I genuinely don’t understand what events could possibly occur that would retroactively turn consensual sex into rape.

I also don’t understand what events could occur that would automatically, proactively turn all following intercourse into rape, except for intentional drugging and maybe peer pressure.

My problem is that, with the idea that all sex with a drunk person is rape, people who haven’t really done anything wrong can be labeled “rapist” and potentially incarcerated without any ability to defend themselves. You say “well the courts will handle it”, as if “the courts” are a nebulous omniscient being that will always do the right thing. You realize a judge is even more fallible than written law, yes? Especially in sticky situations like the one being dsicussed, where it’s pretty much just up to whatever the judge feels like.

The idea that anyone who has ever had any intervourse with anyone who could be considered “intoxicated” is a rapist is retarded. It’s certainly not how the law should work.
Drugging, peer pressure, blackmail/coercion comes to mind instantly. I never said "consensual sex", consensual sex means both partners agreed to it with no complications. Consensual sex can turn into rape if one party decides to just stop in the middle of it and the other don't, but then we wouldn't call it consensual. Consent can be revoked at any point.

In that very post, I made the point that I am aware that the court isn't perfect (whether its by judge or jury. It is usually a case involving jury), there is no perfect system. The idea regarding laws is to deal with as many situations as possible while harming the least amount of people as possible. The scenario you proposed and false accusations are statistically "negligible" (in quotes because I know an innocent accused person wouldn't view it as negligible, I just can't think of a more delicate word right now) because of its rarity among the vast majority of rape cases. I would have to see spikes in false accusations, that scenario, and/or people being found innocent after having been considered guilty for me to agree that, that is too much of a standard for us.

The idea that laws need to always be strict and give no leeway to possible situations is certainly not how it should or do work. Just like there are different types of laws regarding murder/unlawful deaths due to motive, this too can have varying degrees of consequences for one's action.

An example is a woman was asleep, a man came behind her and penetrated her and she thought it was her boyfriend (her boyfriend was asleep somewhere else and she didn't realize as they had a group gathering), so she engaged in sex with him via spooning. That man did that knowing she did not know it wasn't her boyfriend, even admitted it by the way, yet got off scott free because the law didn't cover the fact she was deceived. If I recall correctly, there were proposals later to fix it.

Rape is a terrible thing, but people need to realize what rape is; sex without one or more party's consent. If one is drunk, they simple can't consent because consent requires them to be aware of their actions and the possible consequences of it.


Edit: On another note, you are the first poster to give me a good honest discussion since the resetera move. Glad to have it. I was probably a little brash with you before, if so, then sorry for that. Too many here are hard to converse with, so I always have a guard up now.
 
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Whitesnake

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The idea that laws need to always be strict and give no leeway to possible situations is certainly not how it should or do work. Just like there are different types of laws regarding murder/unlawful deaths due to motive, this too can have varying degrees of consequences for one's action.
Yes, but my point of contention is that in cases like these leave too much up to the judge’s discresion. One judge can look at a case similar to the one I described and say “he’s a rapist, he gets 15 years without parole”, and another judge can look at the exact same case and say “both were intoxicated, neither one consented, he’s not guilty” or maybe “there was no intent, he’s not guilty” and both judges would be correct.

This is not the same as a judge deciding the punishment for murder on a case-by-case basis. This is more akin to if a judge got to define what “murder” is on a case-by-case basis, and could redefine it in such a way to let them judge people that didn’t do anything wrong as “guilty”, and people who were knowingly and maliciously committing a crime as “not guilty”.

Surely you can’t blame me for wanting the laws to be a bit more clear-cut than that? I agree that if a guy shags the unconcious body of blacked-out drunk woman then he’s a rapist, but I refuse to accept the idea that if a kinda-tipsy guy and a kinda-tipsy girl agree to shag then the guy can get the exact same punishment as the actual rapist depending on the judge’s mood that day.

Edit: On another note, you are the first poster to give me a good honest discussion since the resetera move. Glad to have it. I was probably a little brash with you before, if so, then sorry for that. Too many here are hard to converse with, so I always have a guard up now.
No problem. I apologize if I was rude earlier as well. I can understand being skeptical of whether or not I’m arguing in good faith, there are plenty of people who don’t care enough to truly discuss and will simply try to one-up or dunk on others. My suggestion, for whatever it’s worth, is to act as if your opposition is acting honestly and in good faith until they prove otherwise. They may make ad hominems, try to twist what you say, or try to talk you into a corner, but you can always have at least some dignity in the fact that you gave your true opinions and made an honest attempt to discuss them.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Dec 13, 2013
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Yes, but my point of contention is that in cases like these leave too much up to the judge’s discresion. One judge can look at a case similar to the one I described and say “he’s a rapist, he gets 15 years without parole”, and another judge can look at the exact same case and say “both were intoxicated, neither one consented, he’s not guilty” or maybe “there was no intent, he’s not guilty” and both judges would be correct.

This is not the same as a judge deciding the punishment for murder on a case-by-case basis. This is more akin to if a judge got to define what “murder” is on a case-by-case basis, and could redefine it in such a way to let them judge people that didn’t do anything wrong as “guilty”, and people who were knowingly and maliciously committing a crime as “not guilty”.

Surely you can’t blame me for wanting the laws to be a bit more clear-cut than that? I agree that if a guy shags the unconcious body of blacked-out drunk woman then he’s a rapist, but I refuse to accept the idea that if a kinda-tipsy guy and a kinda-tipsy girl agree to shag then the guy can get the exact same punishment as the actual rapist depending on the judge’s mood that day.

This is an understandable concern and you are right that, it gives more room for the prosecutor to decide what is rape instead of just proving if it happened. I am not sure if we will see degrees of rape as we see degrees of murder and such. We do have to remember though, that these laws are already a thing, intoxicated individuals can't give consent according to law. The difference is awareness, in that too many people are not aware of or do not consider it as sexual assault/rape (despite it already being the case for years) and are now being told it to discourage rapes (college rapes for example) and bolster victim support. That is all that is going on here, consent laws were already a thing.

I guess our primary disagreement here is on how much we are willing to sacrifice to the courts. The reason I feel comfortable doing so, is precisely because of the low false accusation stats and how rare a scenario like the one we discussed will happen.

No problem. I apologize if I was rude earlier as well. I can understand being skeptical of whether or not I’m arguing in good faith, there are plenty of people who don’t care enough to truly discuss and will simply try to one-up or dunk on others. My suggestion, for whatever it’s worth, is to act as if your opposition is acting honestly and in good faith until they prove otherwise. They may make ad hominems, try to twist what you say, or try to talk you into a corner, but you can always have at least some dignity in the fact that you gave your true opinions and made an honest attempt to discuss them.
Yes, I will try my best to go along with this.

If the government needs to give people sex ed classes, you know the people are fucked up to begin with.
So everyone in U.S and other countries? lol
 
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Complete thread:

Of note:
"This would carve out a zone of exemption in the age old tenet of the criminal law that the defendant retains the presumption of innocence and the state must prove guilt. "

And:
"The report written in support of the proposal cites research arguing that confused or inconsistent recollections "can be considered evidence that an assault occurred.""
 

NickFire

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Real question = do the leaders of Germany have a reason to hate their own people? In my opinion it's the only rational explanation to solving the problem of "we keep importing people who do not understand what consent is" with "let's teach them how not to rape and hope it works", instead of "get the hell out of our country."
 

Cucked SoyBoy

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Dec 18, 2018
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Right. Germany's government is only looking at the migrants and saying, "Oh we need to defend these poor refugees!"

But they forgot their first duty is to defend the German people.
 
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Arkage

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Sep 25, 2012
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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.

I would've put the army on the border with instructions to shoot anything that moves. That would've prevented 100% of rapes. But that's not what Europeans want. They want to be raped. So why the fuck should I waste time thinking of ways to help them? They don't deserve to be helped. A continent of cucked beta bitches.
Just wanted to take this moment to note that this user was banned for advocating violence. Good call by the mods.

Also wanted to point out the four users that liked/hearted his post. They are:

@Peggion
@God Enel
@King of Foxes
@Lone Wolf
 
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King of Foxes

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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.



Just wanted to take this moment to note that this user was banned for advocating violence. Good call by the mods.

Also wanted to point out the four users that liked/hearted his post. They are:

@Peggion
@God Enel
@King of Foxes
@Lone Wolf
My culture and country are just fine without immigration thank you.

Your attempt to shame and backseat mod are pathetic. This isnt old gaf or reset.
 
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Arkage

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My culture and country are just fine without immigration thank you.

Your attempt to shame and backseat mod are pathetic. This isnt old gaf or reset.
I didn't shame nor backseat mod. Mods do a great job without any of my input. If I thought you should be banned I would've privately reported you, which I didn't. What I did is point out that you liked a post calling for murdering people for crossing the border. If you don't think people should be murdered outright for crossing a line in the dirt perhaps you should clarify.
 
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King of Foxes

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I didn't shame nor backseat mod. Mods do a great job without any of my input. If I thought you should be banned I would've privately reported you, which I didn't. What I did is point out that you liked a post calling for murdering people for crossing the border. If you don't think people should be murdered outright for crossing a line in the dirt perhaps you should clarify.
I would prefer the EU physically stop them and send them back first but if an army or armed person protecting a sovereign border is being rushed or overrun then i would have no issues with that person using deadly force.
 

Whitesnake

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Jan 31, 2018
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I didn't shame nor backseat mod. Mods do a great job without any of my input. If I thought you should be banned I would've privately reported you, which I didn't. What I did is point out that you liked a post calling for murdering people for crossing the border. If you don't think people should be murdered outright for crossing a line in the dirt perhaps you should clarify.
You are currently demanding that people justify what comments they press thumbs-up on.

Nobody gives a shit, mate. These attempted shaming tactics would’ve worken on Reset, but not here.
 

Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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You are currently demanding that people justify what comments they press thumbs-up on.

Nobody gives a shit, mate. These attempted shaming tactics would’ve worken on Reset, but not here.
Well since you guys keep accusing me of shaming, I guess I'm actually going to have to shame you now so you can tell the difference.

The users who liked his post are shitty human beings with borderline sociopathic anger issues.

And the fact you think they shouldn't be shamed for liking a post that calls for outright murder of border crossing people means you're also a shitty human being.

There, now that's a proper shaming. See how that works? Try to have a tougher skin next time.

In any case I've said my piece. Feel free to have the last word in defending those who defend the outright murder of border crossers, mate.
 
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God Enel

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Mar 26, 2011
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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.



Just wanted to take this moment to note that this user was banned for advocating violence. Good call by the mods.

Also wanted to point out the four users that liked/hearted his post. They are:

@Peggion
@God Enel
@King of Foxes
@Lone Wolf

hahahaha. @mods feel free to ban me if a like is banworthy. I liked so much shit here that's controversial or wrong and honestly who cares? (well, apparently you).
You're taking this shit way too seriously dude.. scrubs post reads like parody/sarcasm. And some parts of it I feel like, are true (especially that europe doesn't give a shit). A lot of it is bullshit (shoot everyone or whatever he wrote).
I'm sorry that a like offends you so much.

What's your hidden agenda here?

Edit: double quoted you.
 
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Whitesnake

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Well since you guys keep accusing me of shaming, I guess I'm actually going to have to shame now so I live up to your expectations.

The users who liked his post are shitty human beings with borderline sociopathic anger issues.

And the fact you think they shouldn't be shamed for liking a post that calls for outright murder of innocent people means you're also a shitty human being.

There, now that's a proper shaming. See how that works? Try to have a tougher skin next time.

In any case I've said my piece. Feel free to have the last word in defending those who defend the outright murder of border crossers, mate.
I said "attempted shaming tactics" because for you to be able to successfully shame anyone you would have to have some level of social sway here. You don't.

I don't agree with what he said, but the idea of a heavily-armed border isn't a bad one. Evidently, others agree.

You are raging over some people pressing a like button on an emotionally-charged comment, demanding that they explain themselves and prove themselves to you like you're McCarthy.

Get a grip.
 
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Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.



Just wanted to take this moment to note that this user was banned for advocating violence. Good call by the mods.

Also wanted to point out the four users that liked/hearted his post. They are:

@Peggion
@God Enel
@King of Foxes
@Lone Wolf
Let the mods do what they need to do. They don't need cheerleading. If you want to draw their attention to people you want to catch a ban, report or pm.
 
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Dunki

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Oct 24, 2017
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What needs to happen in Germany are deportations. Yes we need something like ICE. Only a very small fraction of people who should be or have a info of deporation get deported.
We also need language tests. If you can not speak basic German in 3 years sicne ariving you shuld be deported. Full Stop.

We know have the occurance that less than 20% of children can een speak normal German anymore. Normal classes are not possible anymore. We need a system like in Canada
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.
translation; I need to downplay the problem by pivoting to crimes committed by natural citizens
 

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
533
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What needs to happen in Germany are deportations. Yes we need something like ICE. Only a very small fraction of people who should be or have a info of deporation get deported.
We also need language tests. If you can not speak basic German in 3 years sicne ariving you shuld be deported. Full Stop.

We know have the occurance that less than 20% of children can een speak normal German anymore. Normal classes are not possible anymore. We need a system like in Canada
20% of all children in Germany? Or 20% of the children of people immigrating?
 

Dunki

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Oct 24, 2017
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20% of all children in Germany? Or 20% of the children of people immigrating?
In German schools. Yes all children. But then you also need to remember that over 50% of the children in Germany under 15 are migrant children
 

Dunki

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Is that a real stat?
Yes it is a real stat. There are many reasons for this. Not only immigration even through we have schools with a percentage of 90+% migrant children. Another reason is shortage of teachers. More and more classes are being canceled. Right now we are not even use trained teachers anymore. Right now almost everyone can become a teacher in a very short time because we are lacking so many teachers
 

NickFire

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Yes it is a real stat. There are many reasons for this. Not only immigration even through we have schools with a percentage of 90+% migrant children. Another reason is shortage of teachers. More and more classes are being canceled. Right now we are not even use trained teachers anymore. Right now almost everyone can become a teacher in a very short time because we are lacking so many teachers
I'm not following how a lack of teachers caused migrant children to show up at school. But if the original stat is real that would be really shocking. Wow.
 

Dunki

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I'm not following how a lack of teachers caused migrant children to show up at school. But if the original stat is real that would be really shocking. Wow.
If your German language classes are canceled because no one is there to teach than it has something to do. Also there are studies that have shown that a class level of education will drastically be lower if there are more than 5 people who can not speak German or the native language. They will hinder the progress since Teacher can not just ignore them.

Right now we have the debate that if children can not speak a certain level of German they are not allowed to enter Elementary school. We even had a debate to cancel English classes and instead let our children learn Turkish because that way children can talk to each other again.
 
Jan 9, 2018
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Fundamentalist Islamic practice needs to be clamped down on, in its entirety. The West only flourished when fundamentalist Christianity was kicked to the curb. Allowing an even more hardcore religion to flourish within the liberal West just isn’t going to work. Sorry ‘anti racists’, but this is something you are one day going to have to learn, the hard way it seems.
Fascinating history that you have, I wonder when the West began according to your star chart. Or will you now bore us with the revisionisms of prior eras, like dubbing centuries of substantial scholarship "the Dark Ages", and other notions of the suddenly-enlightened West no longer even remotely taken seriously in historical work?
 

NickFire

Member
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If your German language classes are canceled because no one is there to teach than it has something to do. Also there are studies that have shown that a class level of education will drastically be lower if there are more than 5 people who can not speak German or the native language. They will hinder the progress since Teacher can not just ignore them.

Right now we have the debate that if children can not speak a certain level of German they are not allowed to enter Elementary school. We even had a debate to cancel English classes and instead let our children learn Turkish because that way children can talk to each other again.
I completely understand what you are saying about the impacts of the situation. Just unable to follow how teacher shortages cause the proffered stat.
 

Zog

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We had a lot of those kinds of classes in the military as well. I'm not sure how effective they are but it was a bit surprising to hear people argue whether someone can consent or not if that person is drunk.
When both are drunk, the man is blamed. So apparently the man can consent but not the woman. It's easy to understand why that double standard is confusing.
 
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Peggion

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May 18, 2018
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Cultural integration is necessary. Since they already accepted a bunch they should put all the money they need to into the programs to get the job done. It's probably more than they want to do, but they should've known integration would be a long hard road. Beyond this I would need to see some actual statistics vs rape averages for other 1st world countries to really frame this as any sort of crises.



Just wanted to take this moment to note that this user was banned for advocating violence. Good call by the mods.

Also wanted to point out the four users that liked/hearted his post. They are:

@Peggion
@God Enel
@King of Foxes
@Lone Wolf
So you want the moderators to ban me?

Good luck.

Typical from someone who doesn't accept other opinions, oh no the guy was advocating for hate and violence on the internet oh no!

I must silence him forever!

If you find the need for everyone to enter/invade your country you can always open your house doors and let everyone in, it's not a problem right?
 
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sahlberg

Gold Member
Oct 27, 2017
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Well since you guys keep accusing me of shaming, I guess I'm actually going to have to shame you now so you can tell the difference.

The users who liked his post are shitty human beings with borderline sociopathic anger issues.

And the fact you think they shouldn't be shamed for liking a post that calls for outright murder of border crossing people means you're also a shitty human being.

There, now that's a proper shaming. See how that works? Try to have a tougher skin next time.

In any case I've said my piece. Feel free to have the last word in defending those who defend the outright murder of border crossers, mate.
You call fellow gaffers "shitty human beings" because they clicked the like button for a controversial post?
That is not cool. Calm down, you come across as deranged and you turn even people on your side away.