• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Bernie Sanders unveils comprehensive $16.3 trillion Green New Deal plan

Sacred

Member
Aug 22, 2018
447
442
285
1.) Obama was facing Bush's recession. Trump was given Obama's recovery. You don't add 1 trillion dollars a year in economic prosperity, and Trump is foolishly doing that.
2.) Trump is adding over 1 trillion dollars to the debt in a single year.
Yeah keeps pushing that same load of shit that wall street has already proved otherwise.
 

crowbrow

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,823
2,251
550
?

That has nothing to do with what I said.

It's literally been brought up in this thread to make ridiculous proposals so you can then end up with something in the direction you want. That is a tactic.

I'm asking why the other side shouldn't use the same tactic, and just resolve to block all movement whatsoever in the direction you want. My point being that if you act in bad faith an ask for things you know you can't get, don't be surprised when people don't feel like playing that game.
Oh ok, I get it now. Yeah well in that case anything ever said by politicians is over-promising in a way. Most projects out there start with over ambitious goals. It is actually a good strategy to achieve more usually. And yes, the other side can and uses the same tactic all the time. Just look at "the wall" promise by Trump.
 

Ornlu

Member
Oct 31, 2018
1,087
1,236
420
Oh ok, I get it now. Yeah well in that case anything ever said by politicians is over-promising in a way. Most projects out there start with over ambitious goals. It is actually a good strategy to achieve more usually. And yes, the other side can and uses the same tactic all the time. Just look at "the wall" promise by Trump.
The wall would be a good example. The Democratic Party wants no movement toward any greater enforcement of current immigration law, so they stay logically refuse to cave at all on the border wall albatross. So, logically, any sort of over the top socialist wealth redistribution scheme should be rejected completely by the Republican Party as well.
 

crowbrow

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,823
2,251
550
The wall would be a good example. The Democratic Party wants no movement toward any greater enforcement of current immigration law, so they stay logically refuse to cave at all on the border wall albatross. So, logically, any sort of over the top socialist wealth redistribution scheme should be rejected completely by the Republican Party as well.
Yeah but then again that's where the capacity of a true leader emerges. If the person in charge can make the case in a diplomatic way then they can convince people from the other side too. If Bernie can convince republicans that such a plan is good for jump starting economic growth in places where they have local authority like poor white states then he could get support behind the plan because it will also translate into benefiting republicans. I don't think Trump is a very good diplomat so he has trouble finding common grounds or meeting people half way.
 
Last edited:
  • Triggered
Reactions: Tesseract
Mar 18, 2018
1,874
1,350
375
Why? I mean, Bernie is at least providing a plan and explanation how he plans to do it. So far his detractors are like "it's not possible" without much explanation or pointing where the plan fails and why so I think I trust Bernie's team more...
You just don’t want to hear what others have had to say. You are essentially defending an extermination the American way of life at every pass and trying to get hard workers to be bullied by government with religious zeal.

You couldn’t be more indoctrinated if you tried.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
4,543
5,756
420
1. It doesn't matter it is not made for the same reasons, the fact is that the highway did provide a way to boost economic growth.
"We need specific policy proposals."

"it doesn't matter what they are actually are"

What? :messenger_tears_of_joy: Of course it matters

Also Bernie's plan includes saving on money by dismantling military presence in places where it is serving just to protect or acquire energy assets. A long held position is that the extended US military presence and foreign interference for energy resources is in large part responsible for the rise of radical groups and terrorism worldwide. So IT IS ultimately a matter of defense to cut on the foreign influence from the US that is and has stirred up the hornet's nest creating more extremism and migration by creating conflicts for energy resources elsewhere.
bernie could close every U.S. military base worldwide and it wouldn't make a dent in 16 trillion dollars nor would it end foreign intervention.

Not that it matters, because he isn't going to actually do that

2. The plan doesn't say it is "giving the energy sector to foreign nations". It can be seen as actually putting pressure on foreign nations to also move away from more traditional energy sources and meet cleaner and more sustainable standards. And how do you know it won't have an impact on the damage? Until now developed nations are still the biggest polluters in the world.
Giving away the energy sector is what this plan is calling for. Why would any foreign nation or competitors move away from oil or fossil fuel. Their biggest compeition just left the market, ?

For someone crying about my "emotional takes' your takes seem to indulge in nothing but pure fantasy. America leaves the global oil market, and somehow that will pressure Saudi Arabia, Velenzuela, Russia, Nigeria, etc etc to do the same....why?Becuase Bernie said so?


I'm sorry but I don't subscribe to emotional doomsday scenarios.
Says the guy crying about climate change

Do you think Bernie wants to become president to destroy the US? What could possibly be his motivation for that? It is a nonsense argument. I respond to arguments who are rational and analytic not to emotional nonsense. Then you are no better than the average reseteran kneejerk reacting to anything Trump says without an ounce of critical thinking in between.
I think Bernie is an idiot who allows his ideologies to blind him to reality. The fact that he is seriously proposing a 16 trillion dollar spending omnibus (while simultaneously crying about 1 trillion tax cuts) proves that. That he is seriously talking about laying hundreds of thousands of people off is scary stupid.

As for the rest, blah blah blah. I see no "rational and analytic" defense of this plan from you. Just crying that people are pointing out the obvious flaws with this proposal.

This isn't true, I showed above a bunch of government projects that created investment and prosperity in the very long term.
No it's very true. The government does not have a strong track record of creating long term jobs, especially compared tot he private sector.

Also, I find it funny that none of your examples are comparable to the green new deal. This is not a physical infrastructure project like a Dam or federal funding for a local issue. This is the government essentially taking over a huge part of the economy, and driving out competition by government fiat

4. The plan also calls for the creation of 20 million jobs, why do you insist on ignoring this. Emotional keenerking again...
Again, how gullible are you? Just because Bernie claims something doesn't mean it will happen. Again I will point at recent government projects like HSR and Solyndra that sure as hell didn't create "20 million jobs"



Or something like it yes, because emotional arguments don't work for me and shouldn't be used to decide on public policy at least.
uhh..

Because the use of traditional power sources is helping damage the planet irreparably, so making a transition to cleaner energy sources is a smart thing to help avoid environmental problems. And also the transition could mean the US becoming a leader and powerful in alternative energy sources, so giving up on outdated energy sources for more current and popular ones could also give status and power to the US.
:messenger_tears_of_joy: Emotional arguments don't work on me. Now support this 16 trillion dollar plan or else the world will end
 

crowbrow

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,823
2,251
550
"We need specific policy proposals."

"it doesn't matter what they are actually are"

What? :messenger_tears_of_joy: Of course it matters
I didn't say it doesn't matter what they are, I said it doesn't matter if they were made for different reasons. In the end highways did boost the economy. Also who says the intention with highways was not also to boost the economy?

BTW, apparently you were mistaking and there was an economic purpose for the highways not just a military one


"The system would include two percent of all roads and would pass through every state at a cost of $25,000 per mile ($16,000/km), providing commercial as well as military transport benefits.[5]"

bernie could close every U.S. military base worldwide and it wouldn't make a dent in 16 trillion dollars nor would it end foreign intervention.
Proof?

Why would any foreign nation or competitors move away from oil or fossil fuel. Their biggest compeition just left the market, ?
I don't know, ask my country why they did it... My country is a foreign nation and they did the transition. Also many countries now are pushing for using more renewables.

For someone crying about my "emotional takes' your takes seem to indulge in nothing but pure fantasy.
Ok until now you have been wrong with stating that the highway system was not created for economic purposes and that foreign countries wouldn't be interested in promoting renewable energy sources instead of using oil. So who is the one living on a fantasy since you apparently can't get reality correct?

Says the guy crying about climate change
Global warming is a fact by scientific consensus.

I think Bernie is an idiot who allows his ideologies to blind him to reality.
This is really ironic considering what I showed above...

No it's very true. The government does not have a strong track record of creating long term jobs, especially compared tot he private sector.
Proof? How much percentage of public funded projects are successful vs private funded projects? If you are so sure about it I guess you have those numbers at hand... or would you be making stuff up?

Also, I find it funny that none of your examples are comparable to the green new deal.
Yeah also the human genome project was also very different from the highways projects yet both were successful. It doesn't mean much that both are different, what kind of argument is that.


Just because Bernie claims something doesn't mean it will happen.
Well just because you claim it won't happen doesn't mean it won't happen. What makes you more trustworthy than Bernie or his entire team? Bernie at least has a plan which justifies his statements, what do you have?

Emotional arguments don't work on me. Now support this 16 trillion dollar plan or else the world will end
Again, global warming is real. Also I never said the world will end...
 

DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
2,277
1,894
805
I figured out how to pay for it. If Bernie is president just sign an executive order forcing the department of treasury to print 16 trillion dollars in cash, problem solved!

 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: cryptoadam

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
7,524
7,438
715
Here is the eaiest solution. You want get rid of CO2 emissions? Go nuclear.

Also I hope Sanders knows hor many insects and bees these wind panels kill right? In Germany over 5 Billion Insects getting killed by wind panels each year.
 

Riven326

Member
Mar 25, 2019
1,398
1,536
410
United States
Here is the eaiest solution. You want get rid of CO2 emissions? Go nuclear.

Also I hope Sanders knows hor many insects and bees these wind panels kill right? In Germany over 5 Billion Insects getting killed by wind panels each year.
I never thought of that. Poor insects. :messenger_crying:
 

CeroFrio996

privileged little shit
Jun 20, 2019
412
262
475
Also not using Nuclear energy.
Even if you plan for future nuclear energy how do you propose getting a massive number of new nuclear plants running in such a short amount of time? That would be s bureaucratic nightmare, and then you have to figure ot what to do with the waste until we can actually use it.
 

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
7,524
7,438
715
Even if you plan for future nuclear energy how do you propose getting a massive number of new nuclear plants running in such a short amount of time? That would be s bureaucratic nightmare, and then you have to figure ot what to do with the waste until we can actually use it.
The thing is politicians fucked up not going for the safest and cleanest solution we had available.
 

eot

Member
Apr 13, 2012
10,035
377
615
I never thought of that. Poor insects. :messenger_crying:
I don't know if you're serious or not, but wind turbines killing birds is a real problem. Partially because birds of prey like to perch on them (unsurprisingly) and get chopped up by the blades. Since they're higher on the food chain there's fewer of them and they reproduce a lot slower.
 
Last edited:

MisterFalcon

Member
Mar 12, 2013
3,028
205
445
Also I hope Sanders knows hor many insects and bees these wind panels kill right? In Germany over 5 Billion Insects getting killed by wind panels each year.
That's not really a significant number. Research in Holland estimates from counts of dead insects on car number plates 133 billion insects are killed by the 7 million Dutch cars each month. 46 million German cars would kill about 10 trillion insects per year, making wind power responsible for a rise of 0,05%.

Five billion is a number thrown out to muddle the issue because it sounds big.
 

CeroFrio996

privileged little shit
Jun 20, 2019
412
262
475
The thing is politicians fucked up not going for the safest and cleanest solution we had available.
That realization doesnt really help us make decisions about what to do right now, and it wasn't just the fault of the politicians. The people's fears of nuclear hurt its chances of getting off the ground as well.