sirseanconnery
Banned
For the love of God stop giving David Cage money.
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Beyond: Two Souls sells over 1 million copies worldwide
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
- Start date
Crimson_Gold
Member
Why? Some people truly enjoy his games. They may have their flaws, but he is providing experiences that many enjoy. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean that these games need to go away.
Clearly they are making games that the market thirsts for, or they would not hit a million sales. I think if they just nail the right formula by getting those high quality writers, they'd be true game classics as well.
Despite my bad experience with IP and HR, I am still willing to give their next game a shot with the team of writers because they are scratching an itch few others are, just like Doublefine's Broken Age is.
While there are many problems with his games, I don't understand why this/he is such a contentious topic. In a AAA world dominated by FPS games, he makes unique and fairly enjoyable games/experiences that you'd be hard pressed to find elsewhere.
I sort of understand why everyone bashes his writing, but at the same time don't. While there are many holes, problems, etc. people jump on him for the smallest things. Do you see people bashing shoddy CoD, BF, RPG, and more writers as much as people do David Cage? No. I know when I enter the BF4 OT, or the CoD campaign discussion, or FFXIII threads, I see people complaining about them, but I don't think many people have flat out said don't buy it or it's not worth it in comparison to David Cage, where people seem mind boggled that people buy and enjoy his games. He must be doing something right, with 1 Million sales. When do you see people saying don't buy this or RPG or "don't buy CoD because the campaign is awful"? Some people do play these games only for the campaign (not just MP or MP at all), and they enjoy them. If they can enjoy those games, then why can't others enjoy David Cage's games, no matter the problems with them?
I've never seen such a writer as divisive and controversial as him, everyone has a meltdown when some inkling of success comes to this guy. That being said, I'm glad he's being humble about his faults and hiring new writers to work with him.
In relation to gameplay, The Walking Dead got many GOTY with similar gameplay and branching paths that Cage's games have, and people loved it. So what's the problem with Cage's games? (I'm referring to The Walking Dead in a strictly gameplay manner)
e: To clarify, I have tons of problems with his writing, and I'm happy that he'll have better writers with him. That being said, I don't like the all the negative and double standards going around on this.
QD has been very successful this gen so they deserved what ever money they get.
To hop on the other side of this fence now, there is a clear reason why there is a difference between a game like Heavy Rain and a game like Call of Duty and Battlefield. Or even Final Fantasy XIII, really (although I'd disagree with your characterization: the story in those FFXIII games almost always gets demolished by this community, and it is routinely listed as one of the primary reasons people who dislike the game don't like it, right next to its extreme linearity and the automated nature of its combat system).
Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy, Beyond is almost entirely about its story. It is a game that functions as a delivery mechanism for its story. All its mechanics are in service to telling that story. The weird QTE mechanics and stuff were deemed one of the best ways to get the player to feel agency during the game's more tense story moments. The branching paths are so that the player can feel they have a say it the outcome of the story. Unlike any of those other games you mentioned, Quantic Dreams titles live and die by the quality of the narrative they possess, because David Cage and his team intentionally made telling these unique stories THE primary motivation for playing these games. Even if you're like dragonbane and add "exploring pretty environments" as a primary motivation, the reason he enjoys it is partially because it helps inform him more about the world and the story its telling.
In Call of Duty, the primary motivation for the vast majority of its fanbase is not to get through the story. It's to either enjoy the shooting mechanics and its variety of weaponry and enemies or learning the different strategies that will lead to your twitch skill improvement. Then you can either go online against real human competitors, or you can try to beat the primary story mode on higher difficulties. In other words, even IF you did play these games partially because of the story, there is so much else to fall back on to enjoy if it's bad. The games focus is on its shooting mechanics, not its story. The same is true of Battlefield. And, not coincidentally, the focus on story is greatly enhanced in a title like Final Fantasy XIII, and thus it is a far bigger bone of contention among the fan community. It is more likely to contribute to someone's dissatisfaction with the game, because it has a greater focus.
Heavy Rain, Beyond, Indigo Prophecy are all the way at the other spectrum... they are almost entirely, 100%, about the story. If you hate the story, what do you fall back on? There's nothing to improve your skills on; the QTE mechanics are extremely shallow and there is not really any way to get "better" at playing a game like Heavy Rain, only to make choices within the story that you are personally more satisfied with. Therefore, by definition, the amount of people willing to dismiss a Quantic Dream game over its story will ALWAYS be higher than the amount of people willing to dismiss a Call of Duty over its story. One is defined by its story and the choices you make in that story; the other is defined by its shooting gameplay.
There is no hypocrisy or double standard. In fact, there is one consistent standard that seems to ring loud and clear: the more emphasis a developer places on their story, the more central it is to their games mechanics, the more likely it is that consumers who buy the product are going to take you to task for failing at telling a story.
Do people actually think they're being clever repeating this same tired nonsense over and over again?
Cue someone quoting this and saying the same about Cage.
It's the kind of game that would have a decent tail as well, especially with the way sony does console bundles, but as well as just sales it seems that beyond positively impacts the perception of the playstation brand as being more diverse than its direct competitor and so it benefits sony much more than just the direct sales money.
I think that's why Sony started funding QD in the first place. No one expected either game to do as well as they have, it was simply a diversity/artistic sponsorship.
Page and Dafoe are not expensive names. The budget was $27 million. The game is probably on the border between break even and profit at this point.
They get a million each at least, no? Not that this isn't worth it, better to spend on good actors for a game like this I think. They don't necessarily have to be recognizable actors/actresses per say like Ellen Page and Willem Dafoe, but good ones!
Dunno. Dafoe's role in the game is really minor. I'm sure they were compensated but even if it were $5MM total, that's probably like 20% of the total budget of the game max.
QD just isn't that big a studio and they have been efficient in getting games out. Their motion capture technology is probably the most expensive part of what they're doing but I think they own their own studio now.
I don't know what they got but the budget for Beyond was only $4 million more than Heavy Rain and all of the actors, not just those two, are far better. Page and Dafoe are way cheaper than a lot of people think. They mostly do smaller indie stuff out of pure interest.
Really, Dafoe doesn't even have a big role? Did not know that, very interesting. I was trying to figure based on what they are rumoured to take in per average for a movie, and yet a script for a game where you can change the outcome of dialogue means they probably have to record a lot more than the average amount of dialogue (I guess this primarily applies to Ellen Page though in Dafoe has a limited role). I was just wondering if they were able to command a similar number to what they bring in on films these days. I'm very curious about what sort of money big actors/actresses like that can command for a game versus what they make for an average movie.
Good points! I've spent the last half hour trying to think of a good response and I can't, because everything you've said is spot on. I suppose comparing this game to CoD and BF was a bad idea, I should've stayed within the genre(s) that QD makes games in. I know people compare Beyond and The Walking Dead all the time, I was trying to avoid that, but perhaps it would've been better to focus on that. I guess if Cage is always trumpeting how story is the focus of his games then he needs to put more effort and emphasis on a well written, well thought out, and more consistent story. Like you said, story is the core of QD's games with not much to back it other than the weak game mechanics. On Final Fantasy, I went and read some lttp threads and I definitely see how strong the distaste with the game is, and like you said it moreso over it's story. While, I remembered people complaining about, I didn't remember people having problems with it to such a degree, so I was mistaken there.
Admittedly, I've only played through parts of Heavy Rain, I have played through Beyond twice now, and I've never had the opportunity to play Indigo Prophecy, so my experiences with QD games may not be as knowledgeable as yours.
Going forward, aside from better writers, I'd love if alongside the emphasis on story QD did include much more immersive and varied gameplay. For example: the mission in Beyond
where you have to assassinate that politician
What, you haven't played it? What is wrong with you, aren't you supposed to be the holy defender of Playstation? Come on, rectify this now.
What, you haven't played it? What is wrong with you, aren't you supposed to be the holy defender of Playstation? Come on, rectify this now.
what are you talking about. Amirox is the one who proclaimed the end of the era of Sony.
BumblebeeCody
Member
I enjoyed it. Good for them.
I estimate at a million units, it would have generated traditionally about $16 million for publisher and $5-$10 for platform holder, But as this is a 2nd party release then it'll be about $26million combined so your likely right about it coming to the break even point around a million sold.
Glad that it has sold this well . Beyond was imo an odd experience, there was lot of things I didn't like and lot's that I liked. I appreciate what Quantic Dream is trying to do (to mix movie and a game into one), even though Beyond didn't quite reach that potential. Intereseted to see, what the company does with PS4.
. Beyond was imo an odd experience, there was lot of things I didn't like and lot's that I liked. I appreciate what Quantic Dream is trying to do (to mix movie and a game into one), even though Beyond didn't quite reach that potential. Intereseted to see, what the company does with PS4.What, you haven't played it? What is wrong with you, aren't you supposed to be the holy defender of Playstation? Come on, rectify this now.
Given the PlayStation fans who routinely quote my legendary hyperbole post regarding the brand of Sony being dead after PS3 lost its last significant third party exclusive, I do not think I am the holy defender of anything. Hell, even mentioning that the PS3 is still considered a massive failure from a business perspective gets me in hot water with some people
I am an equal opportunity hater, that's all
All kidding aside, I did not get Beyond because my experience with Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy was not especially positive, even though conceptually they appealed to me. I am waiting til their next game when they have this team of writers to give Quantic Dream another shot, because I do like the concepts. Just not the execution to date
Maybe if Beyond drops to $14.99 or something I'll give it a shot though, since I won't feel as if I lost much if I end up hating it.
My main thing is I am glad there is someone like David Cage and Quantic Dream at least starting a conversation about games that are, let's face it, wildly different than the industry norm. That doesn't mean I have to be forgiving of those faults, but it does mean I am way more fascinated in participating in discussions revolving his games than I am of many others. It's an interesting conversation going on right now about what these types of games can be.
I do believe that people are able to change and improve, and my expectation is that now that they have a team of writers, they are going to be taking the most significant step yet toward changing the core problem most people have with QD's games. That doesn't mean it's a guarantee, but it does mean I am once again willing to give them a shot. Because the type of games they're making, if they nail it, really does have the potential to change how people view what games are capable of.
Exciting times to be a gamer, don't you think?
That was long ago, he has obviously come to his senses in the meantime.
dragonbane
Member
Even if I don't agree with that statement, they seem to learn. None of the points you mention even remotely reach the issues Heavy Rain has. And Heavy Rain's issues are small compared to the nosedive that Fahrenheit takes. Not to mention that Omikron before that was very ambitious, but outright broken in several ways. There is a curve from Omikron to Beyond and it will only get better now that they have hired 2 additional writers to help out Cage. They are a big studio, it takes time to change the course of the ship and alter things. Unlike an indie studio the next game already has to be finished story wise when the current game ships. Because you can't have 200 people sitting around doing nothing, which is completely different from the way indies handle things. Deadlines are tight, so Cage has to juggle directing actors, producing the game, do most of the interviews and the marketing, fly to all major gaming events in the world and making sure that he finds the spare time to write his next game. That's incredibly challenging, so I'm glad some of the burden is going to get removed from his shoulder soon.
Also I have yet to see many games that try to tell a grand and malleable story over 10 hours and succeed in a way that satisfies almost everyone. Most games with good storytelling are either short, linear or have a subtle and subdued story. Which is a completely different thing from the games QD makes. The closest comparison is probably Telltale, but they take HUGE shortcuts with the zombie setting in TWD and the fact that it is an established IP with a list of do's and don't's.
So I think you should just give them a little bit more time, they need to learn for a little while longer before they can succeed in a way that will satisfy you.
This is probably the deepest they get: http://youtu.be/BmYFigb6pcQ?t=18m1s
Essential Splinter Cell Conviction Light. Move from cover to cover (you can select which one) or sneak around freely. Peek and jump over cover. Take down enemies from cover or sneak up behind them in the traditional way and take them down from there (which I prefer). If you are spotted you either fail or initiate a fight scene. Aiden can distract enemies as well and sometimes even take them out himself.
You definitely won't be disappointed by the graphics.
As long as developers continue to try new things and advance the medium I'll be happy. I love seeing new and unique things and that's what drew me to playing QD's games in the first place. I hope they improve, they truly do have a lot of promise if they can nail their writing problems down.
dragonbane
Member
Doubtful. Page still acts in indie movies that have a total budget of like $10k. Money is of no real interest to her at this point, she takes roles out of interest. She turns down an incredible amount of offers I heard, just because the character wasn't interesting enough to her. I would be surprised if she got more than $500k for this. Same for Dafoe.
Also what happened to you? You are so strangely calm and positive. It's actually a little bit scary lol
But I'm not complaining...
Yeah it is. Especially most of the stuff that wasn't officially released. You can find most of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAIgicJfTU
It's just we're moving into the next phase of Quantic Dream development, and it's the one I've been waiting for a long time to happen, so I'm in an optimistic mood today
dragonbane
Member
That's good to hearIt's just we're moving into the next phase of Quantic Dream development, and it's the one I've been waiting for a long time to happen, so I'm in an optimistic mood today
Hopefully it will work out.Quickly going back to the graphics, this is partially correct. However the game still looks great even when it starts pushing the highest number of particles and crazy special effects I have seen in a game in a long time. The other stuff looks pretty damn good, but this right here is truly incredible how it manages to render all of this at a steady 30 FPS on PS3 while you are fully controlling Jodie at the same time!
dragonbane
Member
Thankfully it's relatively early on. And the last one is not a spoiler, just what happens when you fail xD I have even better stuff from late in the game, unfortunately that enters spoiler territory, so I won't post thatgreat now you just spoiled the game for me dragonbane how can I ever play it now!
sirseanconnery
Banned
I like how people defend QD asinine writing but as soon as someone says they like Bioshock the entire community's ass puckers hard enough to form diamonds.
dragonbane
Member
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything or to what or whom you are replying. This doesn't change the fact that you tried to tell people what they should or shouldn't do with their own money. In a rather arrogant way.
But for the record, you are wrong anyway. More people have played Bioshock, more people have an opinion on it, tons of people love it and it will appear on GAF's GOTY list in the Top 5. Think before you use the word "entire". As to why so many people criticise the story in Bioshock, I'm not sure, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bioshock seemingly tried to tackle a lot of serious issues and tell a rather ambitious story over multiple dimensions, while Beyond for the most part just wanted to tell a supernatural and entertaining character story. Also Bioshock had more hype and Levine making a lot of promises, which naturally leads to more backlash if it doesn't deliver.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
I'll never understand why no one else licenses the tech and puts out similar works.
Particularly if one guy's writing is supposed to be the thing holding these games back.
After Heavy Rain, I imagined all kinds of games in that "engine." Fuck I think a horror game would be great in that control scheme.
But no.
bigboss370
Member
dcx4610
Member
One of my top 10 games of the year. I guess I can see how David Cage would be polarizing but I absolutely loved the game.
Like in Heavy Rain, there are scenarios that I've never expected to see in gaming. Quantic Dream is challenging what a video game can be and I fully appreciate their trying.
Not to mention, what a gorgeous game. Other than the resolution and frame rate, it rivals anything on the next gen consoles so far.
Like in Heavy Rain, there are scenarios that I've never expected to see in gaming. Quantic Dream is challenging what a video game can be and I fully appreciate their trying.
Not to mention, what a gorgeous game. Other than the resolution and frame rate, it rivals anything on the next gen consoles so far.
dragonbane
Member
Singularity is next for PS4 (working title). We have a couple of rumours:
- GAF insider teased it will be based on the Kara tech demo (sci-fi, robots)
- Job postings on QD's website pretty much confirm sci-fi
- 3 writers working on it indicating a lot of branching, dialogue or content in general
- In active development since August 2012 by a second team (reveal likely in 2014 or early 2015)
- Pre-production already finished
- Release probably late 2015 or 2016
Here is something interesting that comes from me. In April 2005 Quantic Dream announced two new projects on their website that were supposed to enter development shortly after Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy released.
The first project was called Omikron 2: Karma, a sequel to Quantic Dream's first game Omikron: The Nomad Soul, an open world Cyberpunk adventure game. The second project was called Infraworld. Infraworld was shortly cancelled afterwards, because the project didn't appeal to its initial publisher. After Heavy Rain was signed with Sony Omikron was put on hold, but never officially cancelled even to this day.
Considering that the 'Infraworld' is important to Beyond's plot, the fact that this was found in Heavy Rain:
and this in a making of video of Beyond:
confirm without a doubt that Beyond: Two Souls is the cancelled Infraworld game. Since we know that Quantic Dream signed a 3 game deal with Sony after Heavy Rain's success it seems like QD tries to pitch their old projects again. Only this time with Sony they succeeded because of the level of trust they built with Heavy Rain.
Since they were able to bring Infraworld back, I wouldn't be too surprised if Singularity on PS4 ends up being a spiritual successor to Omikron. It would perfectly fit in with all the other rumours too.
3 additional facts support this theory:
- Quantic Dream still owns the IP and recently self-published the original Omikron on GoG
- Omikron 2 was supposed to be a "next gen game" (PS3/360), because all the features they planned especially regarding physics and AI were deemed impossible on PS2/Xbox. Now that they have the impressive Sorcerer engine they should be able to achieve their ambitious vision on PS4 instead. After all, open world rendering takes a lot of hardware power and PS4/XB1 seems to be the first console generation that will allow good character models and good open world rendering at the same time (e.g. Infamous SS)
- QD is currently looking for a senior online developer on their website with strong multiplayer and/or MMO experience. The original Omikron was supposed to have a multiplayer component that would allow players to experience the adventure together, but this feature was dropped before the release. It would make sense to bring it back on PS4, especially after the success of games like Journey