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Black Panther would be declared as a racist movie if the Director wouldn't be black
- Thread starter Starfield
- Start date
Frank Spencer
Banned
AH HA! I always knew the movie Coming To America was racist!
#JohnLandisSoWhite
#JohnLandisSoWhite
Ordinaryundone
Member
How do you mean? It's not like T'Challa and Wakanda are new concepts, they've been around for decades in comic form. Is it just because it has a lot of black people in it? Or because the villain doesn't like what people?
badblue
Member
Out side of a small vocal minority, no one would say that Black Panther was a racist movie because of the skin colour of the director. No one say the character is racist because he was created by two white guys.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
was hoping there was a bit more to this, tbh.
tbh i thought quite a bit about it. it is weird. it's a character created by a white man, Stan Lee. it presents an Africa that is not based on any reality but depicts an entirely fictional tribe replete with spear chucking natives that honestly wouldn't be that far off the mark from the stereotypes in an early movie serial.
then there is the representation. the only American POC in the film is the lead villain, everyone else plays the part of the "enlightened immigrant", a much-used racist trope, even popular among leftists. his evil scheme is to liberate the oppressed everywhere. our heroes team up with the CIA in order to stop him. eh?
then there is the ending. the King has decided maybe Wakanda shouldn't horde vibranium for themselves, they need to do outreach. they give vibranium to the CIA and for the actual black people in Oakland, they open up a community center. guess giving vibranium just to black people would have been unfair or something?
lots of other issues with the film, it would be interesting to read. there is this presentation of this as a woke movie just because of who is in it, so analysis of the actual text gets sidelined. this is similar to the liberal love for Hamilton the musical, which depicts white founding fathers (and admitted slavers) in sexy blackface while ignoring the actual historical blacks of the time.
tbh i thought quite a bit about it. it is weird. it's a character created by a white man, Stan Lee. it presents an Africa that is not based on any reality but depicts an entirely fictional tribe replete with spear chucking natives that honestly wouldn't be that far off the mark from the stereotypes in an early movie serial.
then there is the representation. the only American POC in the film is the lead villain, everyone else plays the part of the "enlightened immigrant", a much-used racist trope, even popular among leftists. his evil scheme is to liberate the oppressed everywhere. our heroes team up with the CIA in order to stop him. eh?
then there is the ending. the King has decided maybe Wakanda shouldn't horde vibranium for themselves, they need to do outreach. they give vibranium to the CIA and for the actual black people in Oakland, they open up a community center. guess giving vibranium just to black people would have been unfair or something?
lots of other issues with the film, it would be interesting to read. there is this presentation of this as a woke movie just because of who is in it, so analysis of the actual text gets sidelined. this is similar to the liberal love for Hamilton the musical, which depicts white founding fathers (and admitted slavers) in sexy blackface while ignoring the actual historical blacks of the time.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Thought this was ridiculous at first, but thinking about it ya it makes sense.
The movie itself wouldn't be racist, but its production would be looked at as racist. And lets not forget that every little decision would be questioned to have a racist motive. Oh they have spears and ride Rhinos, thats only because the director is racist. Oh they wear skimpy clothes in the cold tempratures, must be racist director thinking black people have super powers.
The conversation would be how could a white person make a film about black people and Africa? Remember when ScarJo got forced off the movie she was making about a transperson? It would be the same backlash.
As abusred as it sounds, in todays world of identity politics it actually makes 100% sense. A white man cannot direct a black movie, the optics to some would make it seem racist. The cries would be why can't a black man direct this seminole black movie, MCU/DIsney are clearly racist because they don't trust a black director. I mean the notion of a white man having complete control over all these black actors almost brings back the imagery of Masta and slave on the plantation or at least thats how it would be played by someone like Don Lemon or Al Shartongue.
The movie itself wouldn't be racist, but its production would be looked at as racist. And lets not forget that every little decision would be questioned to have a racist motive. Oh they have spears and ride Rhinos, thats only because the director is racist. Oh they wear skimpy clothes in the cold tempratures, must be racist director thinking black people have super powers.
The conversation would be how could a white person make a film about black people and Africa? Remember when ScarJo got forced off the movie she was making about a transperson? It would be the same backlash.
As abusred as it sounds, in todays world of identity politics it actually makes 100% sense. A white man cannot direct a black movie, the optics to some would make it seem racist. The cries would be why can't a black man direct this seminole black movie, MCU/DIsney are clearly racist because they don't trust a black director. I mean the notion of a white man having complete control over all these black actors almost brings back the imagery of Masta and slave on the plantation or at least thats how it would be played by someone like Don Lemon or Al Shartongue.
Starfield
Member
That's exactly what I mean by this movie would be racist if it was made by a white director. I was on a plane before so I couldn't reply, be on a plane in a few mins again.
cryptoadam
Banned
You don't think there would be twitter mobs about how the white director doesn't know enough about the black experience to direct this movie? Or that how even black people are portrayed is racist? There is a scene where we see Wakadians with big lip rings, I am sure a white director would be called out for potraying outdated racial stereotypes.
Also the imagary of a white director directing mainly black actors in "Africa" would be clearly spun as Masta on his plantation.
If ScarJo can have her movie about a transgender person tanked because she isn't transgender, Twitter mobs would of done the same to this movie.
Jesus Carbomb
From Water into Guinness
NuGAF - We thrive on hypotheticals
Sqorin Hammerfarf
Banned
You ever see that Next Generation episode called "Code of Honor"? It's like that, but somehow WORSE.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
What is this even, there is too little hypothetical outrage, lets make some more?
If the Director was trans, wouldn't the movie be transphobic? Would the director be rather naive for not inserting trans people into the movie? Would it have gotten a dozen awards if it did?
To play devil's advocate, isn't black panther proof that having none white directors a good thing. Now you can have a film like black panther that does all of these things, and not have to worry about political backlash. You can hide behind the directors race if someone is offended?
Vicetrailia
Member
Absolutely 100% no.
cryptoadam
Banned
Hello???
I mentioned it no one remembers ScarJo?
So you telling me that people wouldn't jump on the outrage train of a white guy directing a movie about Black people in Africa? The outrage machine would be revving to go. If they somehow could link it to Trump then it would be in full force.
Yes its sad but we are at this point in time now.
I mentioned it no one remembers ScarJo?
So you telling me that people wouldn't jump on the outrage train of a white guy directing a movie about Black people in Africa? The outrage machine would be revving to go. If they somehow could link it to Trump then it would be in full force.
Yes its sad but we are at this point in time now.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The past 15-20 years is all about big blockbuster kick ass movies and cute cartoons.
A movie like Schindler's list which was based off real life and literally world changing for lots of people is considered great, but nobody is begging to see another historic movie. On the other hand, I'm sure Marvel Superhero Movie #18 released in 2030 will make another $500 million- $1 billion.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
well isnt that usually the type who complain about shit
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
"The royal penis is clean, your highness!"
Imagine if that scene was in Black Panther.
LOLCats
Banned
You know there is a sequel in the works. We'll see how that compares.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
But dude, twitter mobs exist for literally everything. There are fringe lunatics mad about everything, somewhere.
Because a few idiots on twitter get mad about something doesn’t make it a legit newsworthy issue.
Had they chosen a white director for BP, yes it would have raised eyebrows, no question. But I think we create a trap for ourselves to fall into when we keep playing the “what if” game for everything social-political
Aurelian
my friends call me "Cunty"
Like JareBear said, this is pointless "what ifing." It wasn't directed by a white person, and it's clear that there was an attention to the black community.
As it stands, the movie is generally thoughtful as a whole. My South African girlfriend noted that Andy Serkis speaks in a spot-on Joburg accent, for example. She was slightly miffed that the South Africans in the movie are mercenaries, but that's not entirely without merit.
As it stands, the movie is generally thoughtful as a whole. My South African girlfriend noted that Andy Serkis speaks in a spot-on Joburg accent, for example. She was slightly miffed that the South Africans in the movie are mercenaries, but that's not entirely without merit.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
if The Last Jedi can be "too feminist for manbabies" yet it was written by a fat bearded white guy no doubt they could pull the same trick w this
cryptoadam
Banned
Would you think ScarJo playing a transgender character was legit newsworthy?
Basically the same situation, a few idiots on twitter got mad and forced ScarJo out of the movie and killed the movie because without her no one wanted to make the movie.
With twitter now a days you just need a few idiots to make some noise and its enough for companies to bow down. Look at James Gunn getting removed from GOG because of tweets he made decades ago.
A twitter mob would form and as we saw already with the MCU they would fold like a cheap suite.
All I know that the movie is way to overblown. Not because it was a great movie but because of the "social importance" Like I fucking care about this while watching a superhero movie. If his one gets an Oscar I will just sit there quitely and BLOCK everyone from my life who voted for this.
Meanwhile a masterpiece like ROMA gets ignored because it has not a social impactful message to tell like black Panther or Blackclansman. Fuck this.
If Roma does not win I will riot. But maybe it is also a movie that is way to intelligent for these so called progressive marionettes that can not even think on their own^^
Meanwhile a masterpiece like ROMA gets ignored because it has not a social impactful message to tell like black Panther or Blackclansman. Fuck this.
If Roma does not win I will riot. But maybe it is also a movie that is way to intelligent for these so called progressive marionettes that can not even think on their own^^
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
difference is Scarjo is the "face" of the character. she will be on posters, in trailers, etc. you aren't even going to see the director unless you seek it out. optics. shareholders care about the director, financing, etc. representation people just want the right face on a poster.
a big part of SJW culture is focused on optics above all. thus you can have a white director, white writer, etc. so long as a POC is playing the lead role or is otherwise highlighted to suggest as such in marketing.
again, look at Hamilton. you can revive & glorify slavers and make them seem multi cultural and progressive so long as you have the roles all played by black people. imagine if Hamilton was all white people, rapping about how badass they are. it would be laughed off the stage. but make this one tweak and you can get away with it...
a big part of SJW culture is focused on optics above all. thus you can have a white director, white writer, etc. so long as a POC is playing the lead role or is otherwise highlighted to suggest as such in marketing.
again, look at Hamilton. you can revive & glorify slavers and make them seem multi cultural and progressive so long as you have the roles all played by black people. imagine if Hamilton was all white people, rapping about how badass they are. it would be laughed off the stage. but make this one tweak and you can get away with it...
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Aurelian
my friends call me "Cunty"
What are you talking about? Roma has been praised to the high hills and back. It has ten Oscar nominations, including in multiple major categories where Black Panther is a no-show. And yes, it has a socially impactful message -- it's a commentary on the double-standards that sometimes crop up in male authority (guys who claim to be big shots, but abdicate responsibilities whenever kids are involved) as well as social class discrepancies.
And good grief, man... let people enjoy things. Black Panther winning an Oscar would not be a horrendous crime. It's a well-made movie with talented actors, and has a surprising amount of social commentary for what's supposed to be a popcorn flick. Your world will not end if someone you know likes that the movie won an award.
No it is not. It is not even the best Marvel Movie this year. Black Panther only gets a nomination because it is "progressive" that is their only reason to even be nominated.
And I am talking about shit like this
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/l...lot-roma-just-an-expensive-home-movie-1187668
And I will be honest here. Roma is the only movie on there that has the potential to become a classic
And yes you can enjoy Black Panther as much as you want. I also enjoy stupid shallow movies. But this is not about people enjoying a movie. This is about giving a decent Marvel Movie the biggest award in this Industry. It would be fucking ridiculous. I also would not vote for Infinity Wars as a nomination even though it is a much better and polished movie than Black Panther who also has a message and shows something totally different for these kind of movies
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You can dunk (sorry, had to) on BP all you want because you didn't (obviously) like it...
But when me and my friends went to see it on opening weekend... We talked about how we went through the gamut of emotions while watching it. Awe, sadness, excitement, joy... If you could have seen my face when they first showed Wakanda through the veil...
I don't expect you to understand why so many love that movie... I've seen it countless times since then ... Just let folks have this movie and be happy if it wins any Oscars.
ButDidYouDie.gif
Aurelian
my friends call me "Cunty"
The Academy likes movies with social messages. See movies like Do the Right Thing or Philadelphia, for example. It really shouldn't come as a shock that BP would get nominated. And I'm sorry, but it was not only an enjoyable movie for a lot of people, it shattered expectations for what would normally be a quiet month for movies. You don't have to be enthralled with the movie yourself, but you're not the sole arbiter of taste.
(For reference, I think Infinity War was more thematically complex than BP, but I also think BP stood out in other ways, and that Infinity War didn't really have much of a message beyond "balance at all costs isn't a good thing.")
Keep in mind that the Hollywood Reporter article comes from one voter out of more than 8,000. One. The odds are that you could canvass virtually any Oscars vote and find dissent even on movies that swept the awards. I also wouldn't say that voter is entirely wrong. It's an indulgent home movie (it's based on the life of Cuaron's housekeeper), but it's also beautiful, narratively powerful and well-acted. I look at it more as a modern version of a movie like Fellini's Amarcord, where it's at once a look back at the creator's childhood but also a dash of political commentary.
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mcjmetroid
Member
This is a little cynical and I never even thought about it ( I didn't even know the director was Black)
You might be right though, We'll never know though.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
If that were true people would already have latched on that 2 white guys made it a comic book
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I am talking abut the movie itself. The quality of the writing, cuts direction etc. This is what a Movie should be accounted for. And Philadelphia for example was a good movie because all of this. This is the same bullshit as giving Ghostbuster 2016 a even decent 60-70 score because of women.
Again you can love the movie as much as you want. But this is or should not be about mow much you loved the message of the movie but about the ACTUAL quality of the movie.
And even then Roma tos all of this as well. Even your social message but it is highly intelligent
Then maybe this person needs to have his right to vote revoked if he says this about Roma
And the only thing he cared about was the social message nothing else.
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Domisto
Member
All I know is, when I saw the trailer I thought - oh, a black hero and cast, and they've given them loads of African iconography and chucked some rap music over the top. What a load of stereotypes. How creative you are Hollywood. It also looked cheesy as, so I still haven't watched it.
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Vicetrailia
Member
This gives it a unique flavor set apart from other marvel movies, that gives it a different experience the first showing. Once that effect wears off it's just another marvel movie.
It's good to see differentiation within that vacuum, even if overall it plays to common themes.
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Aurelian
my friends call me "Cunty"
Really? No! It's a bit ironic that you complain about groupthink in one breath but yet want this voter to toe the line. I only really think we should want Academy voters to be informed, not to simply echo what others are saying. I don't believe this voter is right about Roma, but I also don't think they should lose their voting privileges simply because they disagreed.
The Scrivener
Member
100% yes, of course it would.
The radical left don't know what to think. The question most raised by them on social media goes something like "how should we think of this?" or "I don't know what to think of this".
Well if it's racist then it's racist, if it's not then it's not. There is no interpretation of racism where there isn't any I'm afraid, but they spin everything.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Edit: Haven't seen the film yet unfortunately, I want to because one, I like superhero films, and two, I don't see racism everywhere, crazy that isn't it!
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Krappadizzle
Gold Member
Last year was a good year to be a young black kid. Spiderman and Black Panther showed young black kids that they can be superheros. I didn't like Black Panther as much as most but I thought it was pretty good. I didn't even know what race or background of either director. I didn't care. I wager I'm not alone either. Good movies are about people, not colors.
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Domisto
Member
To be fair, it's not really my scene. I like a bit of Marvel but it's fluff to me. So this looks like reskinning the formula in a really obvious way. It's the exotic African one and that leaves it feeling a bit shallow and unimaginative.
It just strikes me as a very Western approach. The imagery makes me think more of 19th Century Africa than 21st. I'm no expert on African culture so I'd be far more interested to hear what an actual African audience thought of it. I'm sure many would like it regardless. Even more interesting would be what kind of hero movie an African team would create.
Anyway, I look forward to Black Panther II which will no doubt be set in Harlem and they have to time travel back to the 1970s.
Vicetrailia
Member
You're not busting my bubble, you're locking yourself into your own bubble.
As they always say, to each his own.
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
This is bullshit logic.
"[Thing] would definitely receive a harsh and hypocritical reaction if [variable] was different" is not actually an argument.
What am I supposed to say?
I could say "Yes, this would definitely happen". But where is my proof? It's boogeyman conjecture. How is this supposed to affect my behavior moving forward or guide my decisions? I'm not interested in spending my time worrying about possible outcomes for imaginary hypocritical conflicts.
Yet I can't say "No", because the obvious retort would be "are you saying this wouldn't happen? Are you saying such-and-such group doesn't engage in hypocritical behavior?" and I would be unable to defend my standpoint.
Unfalsifiable claims are not a part of logical discourse.
"[Thing] would definitely receive a harsh and hypocritical reaction if [variable] was different" is not actually an argument.
What am I supposed to say?
I could say "Yes, this would definitely happen". But where is my proof? It's boogeyman conjecture. How is this supposed to affect my behavior moving forward or guide my decisions? I'm not interested in spending my time worrying about possible outcomes for imaginary hypocritical conflicts.
Yet I can't say "No", because the obvious retort would be "are you saying this wouldn't happen? Are you saying such-and-such group doesn't engage in hypocritical behavior?" and I would be unable to defend my standpoint.
Unfalsifiable claims are not a part of logical discourse.
Aurelian
my friends call me "Cunty"
I'd say there's a bit more to it than that, but I do agree that it's not strictly revolutionary. And to some degree, reskinning it is valuable in itself. We see so many movies that tend to use Africa as a prop (movies like The Ghost and the Darkness amount to "white guys visit Africa") or are about a specific historic moment (see: Invictus), so having an action movie that thrives on African culture is frankly refreshing.
I can't offer a black African reaction to the movie, but as I alluded to earlier, my girlfriend is British-background South African and quite enjoyed seeing her continent represented as more than a cliché.
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