BlazeBlue: New HD2D Fighter From Arc System Works

Jun 9, 2004
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Urban Scholar said:
I'm not sure if you read this but I think this interview from Gamasutra is an interesting read, in regards to your question and more.
Read this when it was posted here the first time, and it just smacks of Japan's ignorance WRT to online gaming.

IMO if Japan doesn't adapt and start taking online game development seriously; they're going to be pushed even further out of the market.

Do you really think SFEX4 would have sold as well as it has without online play? Hell no!

Japan needs to stop using the Internet for cell phone porn and start catching up to Western developers.

I'm sure BB and KoF12 will have questionable online play; but the important first step is having online play. Otherwise your game will be stillborn in the West.
 

Xabora

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ezekial45 said:
I really wished they would've put in a character thats similar to Slayer. He was my favorite GG character. The current roster really needs someone who's got style.
Slayer is/was awesome in GG, but come on.
Can't have the same dude in every game or else its dull. :lol
 

Urban Scholar

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The Take Out Bandit said:
I'm sure BB and KoF12 will have questionable online play; but the important first step is having online play. Otherwise your game will be stillborn in the West.
You have a valid point and I'm not questioning this in the least. I just hope with the PS3 version doesn't have too much online crashes or something. Am I also the only one to think that on going support via patching for stability will be hoping for too much?
 

MoxManiac

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_dementia said:
BlazBlue devs are teaming up with GGPO, so I strongly doubt that
Yeah, i'm not sure why people are talking about the online being questionable at all. Mentions of GGPO should be enough to allay any fears.
 

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bistromathics

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Urban Scholar said:
You have a valid point and I'm not questioning this in the least. I just hope with the PS3 version doesn't have too much online crashes or something. Am I also the only one to think that on going support via patching for stability will be hoping for too much?
I still cant imagine that they are considering doing it any other way (or I guess not at all?). The only thing I have a harder time imagining is the devs believing they can get away with the old "version" approach.

Regarding that article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3902/dodging_striking_winning_the_.php), I was most interested in the discussion of depth vs complexity, and their philosophy on how to strike that balance (this is something I have been interested in for a while, now).

As far as online play, I completely agree with the points made about the (lack of) communication, but was a bit disappointed to hear that instead of finding ways to compensate for and/or translate that experience to consoles, they were kind of dismissing it as something that couldn't really be done. This is what their ultimate goal should be!

Also, it seems that their perception of the demand for hyper-precision is bit misguided; I have no authority to speak for japanese gamers (although I am going to anyway), but I have to imagine that those demanding single-frame-precision will stick to arcades or local matches, just as they would here. I don't think competitive gamers in the US are any more "lenient" than those in japan.

The bigger problem for Arc Systems Works sounds like finding a way to achieve the same kind of balance/complexity ratio using a system that goes beyond single-frame precision.
 

bistromathics

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Cataferal said:
Who are GGPO? What other online games have they worked on?
Not a "who" but a "what". GGPO is a protocol used for online fighting games. I know they are highly regarded for implementing netplay into MAME titles - aka games never originally coded for online play. I also know that SF4 was rumored to be using this system, but ended up not using it (not sure why).

Has any game ever been developed with GGPO in mind? I would think that if a title was developed with online in mind from the start, GGPO might not be nearly as useful...maybe even extremely limiting, as that is not what it was designed for. I don't know the specifics on how it works though, so I could be completely wrong.
 

Urban Scholar

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bistromathics said:
The bigger problem for Arc Systems Works sounds like finding a way to achieve the same kind of balance/complexity ratio using a system that goes beyond single-frame precision.
Right, I think ASW definitely understands this or is realizing it. I'm far from an expert on this but I would assume the best course would be some sort of input lag time assumption with the frame animation online. If for us non competition level players it feels the same on and off line then we shouldn't have any problems.
 

bistromathics

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Urban Scholar said:
Right, I think ASW definitely understands this or is realizing it. I'm far from an expert on this but I would assume the best course would be some sort of input lag time assumption with the frame animation online. If for us non competition level players it feels the same on and off line then we shouldn't have any problems.
Oh hell if i know the tech behind multiplayer netcode. I do know how fucking ridiculous things can get with regular ol' data, and have a 5000 ft understanding of how it goes down in games. More specifically I meant around developing a fighting system that doesnt require that kind of precision, which - I'm going to go out on a bullshit-limb here - is what was done with SF4.
 

Urban Scholar

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bistromathics said:
Oh hell if i know the tech behind multiplayer netcode. I do know how fucking ridiculous things can get with regular ol' data, and have a 5000 ft understanding of how it goes down in games. More specifically I meant around developing a fighting system that doesnt require that kind of precision, which - I'm going to go out on a bullshit-limb here - is what was done with SF4.
:lol Oh man, what version of the game are you planning on getting if I may ask?
 

CPS2

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bistromathics said:
Has any game ever been developed with GGPO in mind? I would think that if a title was developed with online in mind from the start, GGPO might not be nearly as useful...maybe even extremely limiting, as that is not what it was designed for. I don't know the specifics on how it works though, so I could be completely wrong.
HDRemix is the only commercial game that uses similar netcode afaik. Basically the idea is just to reduce input delay as much as possible, and over longer distances and higher pings you tend to get frame skipping and rollbacks, as opposed to inconsistent input delay.
 

bistromathics

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Urban Scholar said:
:lol Oh man, what version of the game are you planning on getting if I may ask?
I got, and have been playing quite a lot of, the 360 one. My statements are based purely on the fact that the game feels a lot slower and floatier. I wasn't joking when I said I was going off on a "buillshit limb" :p

And now that my opinion has been challenged, I will immediately back down from it. Some of those link combos are fucking impossible to perform in training mode...never even bothered with the really difficult ones online.
 

bistromathics

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UC1 said:
HDRemix is the only commercial game that uses similar netcode afaik. Basically the idea is just to reduce input delay as much as possible, and over longer distances and higher pings you tend to get frame skipping and rollbacks, as opposed to inconsistent input delay.
HDR wasnt really developed from scratch, though, which would make sense that it used GGPO as that is exactly the sort of game it works well with. And I now retract what I said before about 'whoever did the netcode for HDR needs to consult with others'. Maybe their lobby system could influence others, but that is less tech-related than just common-sense related.
 

CPS2

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I'm not sure that it really matters if the game is built from scratch as an online game, or starts off in the arcade or whatever. You have to hide the lag one way or another, reducing input lag is the best way, but something always has to fuck out when the pings are too high. That doesn't really change just because BlazBlue is a Taito Type X2 game or anything...
 

ZealousD

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The Take Out Bandit said:
Do you really think SFEX4 would have sold as well as it has without online play? Hell no!
You're still fucking on that?
 

Urban Scholar

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new preview from 1up:

Can BlazBlue offer the same "lag-free" experience? For now, Mori-san can't commit to any promises, but is proactively looking into ways to bring the arcade experience as close as possible. "There's a lot of tug of war between GGPO and its use," says Mori-san. What he can promise are other online features, including the ability to record matches, match lobbies of up to six players, leaderboards, and rankings. You'll get your chance to play BlazBlue, in a tournament like EVO or battles fought online, in summer 2009 on Xbox 360 or PS3.
Hmm...well at least this is reassuring to some of our topics on hand.
 

Hunahan

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bistromathics said:
Oh hell if i know the tech behind multiplayer netcode. I do know how fucking ridiculous things can get with regular ol' data, and have a 5000 ft understanding of how it goes down in games. More specifically I meant around developing a fighting system that doesnt require that kind of precision, which - I'm going to go out on a bullshit-limb here - is what was done with SF4.
que?

You did say bullshit limb, so this isn't just launched at you specifically - but the thing I don't understand about the reaction to SF4 is that it's probably one of the more technical and "hardcore" fighting games out there. Even for basic gameplay, the combos are demanding, the unintuitive priorities of a wide variety of moves need to be learned to even begin to construct a strategy, and the dexterity-oriented command inputs/timing for individual performance are extremely complex - just to name a couple aspects.

So why is this suddenly the poster child for a simple/less precision-oriented fighter?

DOA, sure I get it.

Soul Calibur, sure I get it.

In both of these games, there's pretty simplified command-input requirements that are far more universal across characters, more forgiving timing in all aspects of gameplay, an accessible parry system that evens out skill level, intuitive priority handling (ie - the flashier, bigger move mostly wins), and very little focus on high-damage, extendable combos.

Street Fighter 4? The only thing I can see that's "simple" about this game in any way is that there is a cultural burn-in and usable muscle memory for the world warriors' special moves. Beyond that, it's a pretty fucking complicated game.

What's utterly fascinating to me here is how Capcom managed to effectively convince people that this game was really casual-friendly and easy to get into when so many less complicated fighters have not.

It's a marketing point. It's a communication tactic. And it's something that a lot of games obviously fail at when they shouldn't.

If you ask me, constructing a less complicated or frame-specific fighter isn't even remotely necessary. What these companies should really get after is figuring out what it was about Capcom's communication and marketing efforts that completely altered the physical reality of their product into something that people are willing to swallow.

That communication is obviously the ticket to broader fighting game success.

I'm not being even remotely sarcastic. After listening to the mainstream media reaction to Sf4, I'm utterly convinced that it's less about what you give someone, and more about what you can make them believe that you are giving them.
 

ZealousD

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Hunahan said:
What's utterly fascinating to me here is how Capcom managed to effectively convince people that this game was really casual-friendly and easy to get into when so many less complicated fighters have not.

It's a marketing point. It's a communication tactic. And it's something that a lot of games obviously fail at when they shouldn't.

If you ask me, constructing a less complicated or frame-specific fighter isn't even remotely necessary. What these companies should really get after is figuring out what it was about Capcom's communication and marketing efforts that completely altered the physical reality of their product into something that people are willing to swallow.

That communication is obviously the ticket to broader fighting game success.

I'm not being even remotely sarcastic. After listening to the mainstream media reaction to Sf4, I'm utterly convinced that it's less about what you give someone, and more about what you can make them believe that you are giving them.
I think the mere fact that the game features pretty much every character from Street Fighter II, characters that pretty much everybody knows by heart, makes the game more inviting. Pretty much all of my close friends did not like SFIII because it lacked most of the characters from SFII's roster.
 

Urban Scholar

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Hunahan said:
That communication is obviously the ticket to broader fighting game success.
You bring up a good point because its was that sales approach that got the sales going. Just as the 1UP preview says, BB would seem to be too much for newbies for that larger market share. I mean this is still GG at its core and it never exactly been easy from the get go.
 

ZealousD

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Urban Scholar said:
I mean this is still GG at its core and it never exactly been easy from the get go.
Guilty Gear is very easy to have fun with, you don't have to learn every single sub-system to appreciate it. I'm merely a casual 2D fighting game fan and I wouldn't even begin to consider my skills to be tournament ready. I'm buying BlazBlue on day one, and I'll probably get slaughtered online.
 

Urban Scholar

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ZealousD said:
Guilty Gear is very easy to have fun with, you don't have to learn every single sub-system to appreciate it. I'm merely a casual 2D fighting game fan and I wouldn't even begin to consider my skills to be tournament ready. I'm buying BlazBlue on day one, and I'll probably get slaughtered online.
:lol Yeah I right there with you on that
 

ChaoticBlue

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will this be release in america for ps3?

remember battle fantasia didn't make it in america for ps3. i have a feeling blazblue won't make it too due to stupid SCEA. if so i'm getting a 360 then. :D
 
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Hunahan said:
que?

You did say bullshit limb, so this isn't just launched at you specifically - but the thing I don't understand about the reaction to SF4 is that it's probably one of the more technical and "hardcore" fighting games out there. Even for basic gameplay, the combos are demanding, the unintuitive priorities of a wide variety of moves need to be learned to even begin to construct a strategy, and the dexterity-oriented command inputs/timing for individual performance are extremely complex - just to name a couple aspects.

So why is this suddenly the poster child for a simple/less precision-oriented fighter?

DOA, sure I get it.

Soul Calibur, sure I get it.

In both of these games, there's pretty simplified command-input requirements that are far more universal across characters, more forgiving timing in all aspects of gameplay, an accessible parry system that evens out skill level, intuitive priority handling (ie - the flashier, bigger move mostly wins), and very little focus on high-damage, extendable combos.

Street Fighter 4? The only thing I can see that's "simple" about this game in any way is that there is a cultural burn-in and usable muscle memory for the world warriors' special moves. Beyond that, it's a pretty fucking complicated game.

What's utterly fascinating to me here is how Capcom managed to effectively convince people that this game was really casual-friendly and easy to get into when so many less complicated fighters have not.

It's a marketing point. It's a communication tactic. And it's something that a lot of games obviously fail at when they shouldn't.

If you ask me, constructing a less complicated or frame-specific fighter isn't even remotely necessary. What these companies should really get after is figuring out what it was about Capcom's communication and marketing efforts that completely altered the physical reality of their product into something that people are willing to swallow.

That communication is obviously the ticket to broader fighting game success.

I'm not being even remotely sarcastic. After listening to the mainstream media reaction to Sf4, I'm utterly convinced that it's less about what you give someone, and more about what you can make them believe that you are giving them.
Thank you for this post. Agreement level: 1000%.
 

rykomatsu

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The Take Out Bandit said:
US or Japan release?

I'd like Atlus to localize the second one; but I don't know if they will or not. :(
Japan...I think April 9th

Really love the background artwork...in particular, Katsuguchi Port looks like something directly out of an HD version of Ar Tonelico :D

edit: kagutsuchi >.>
 

Tain

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What's utterly fascinating to me here is how Capcom managed to effectively convince people that this game was really casual-friendly and easy to get into when so many less complicated fighters have not.
A-fuckin'-men.

Anyway, one of the travesties about the upcoming console ports of this game is that they will most likely not offer a native 1:1 display option, since the arcade version runs on > 720p hardware and any 1080p output will be upscaled.

I mean, we'll see, but it's kind of up in the air.
 

rykomatsu

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Tain said:
Anyway, one of the travesties about the upcoming console ports of this game is that they will most likely not offer a native 1:1 display option, since the arcade version runs on > 720p hardware and any 1080p output will be upscaled.
noob question here, but what's the benefit of native 1:1....or what is it? 720p output will be scaled down and 1080p will be scaled up?
 

Xabora

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Tain said:
A-fuckin'-men.

Anyway, one of the travesties about the upcoming console ports of this game is that they will most likely not offer a native 1:1 display option, since the arcade version runs on > 720p hardware and any 1080p output will be upscaled.

I mean, we'll see, but it's kind of up in the air.
Wait, I expect this to be in Blaz Blu because they had this option in Battle Fantasia.
Even then they would let you flip between revisions of the game code too.
 

Chowfahn

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HK-47 said:
Are the two boss characters unlockable?
Unlocked from the get-go. Story mode's just there for the story, and the other modes probably unlock stuff in the Gallery.
 

Tain

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noob question here, but what's the benefit of native 1:1....or what is it? 720p output will be scaled down and 1080p will be scaled up?
Pixels will look nice and sharp like they were drawn (and displayed in a Viewlix) instead of filtered on the screen.

I hear Battle Fantasia was fine, but that's also a natively 3D game through and through, and BlazBlue's direct feed PS3 shots on IGN are filtered.

I'm sure many won't care, but it'll be really annoying to me to see these natively super high resolution 2D games that still won't be displayed right.
 

Mooreberg

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JEKKI said:
Boss Video!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTwxc8svK6c

btw check out his entire youtube channel... LOTS of videos!

also Aksys updated their website with english movelists and US arcade locations!

http://aksysgames.com/bba/

I am gonna paste them into MS Word and print them for reference!

locations that will be getting it soon if not now:

<snip>
Tokyo Game Action - MA
</snip>
This place was apparently flooded in January and is now closed.
 

ZealousD

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The Take Out Bandit said:
So are you playing SFEX4 on your PSX3 or your Xbox2? :lol
I'm not playing it at all, actually, waiting for the inevitable Ultra Mega Street Fighter IV Super Turbo v2.
 

sixteen-bit

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ChaoticBlue said:
will this be release in america for ps3?

remember battle fantasia didn't make it in america for ps3. i have a feeling blazblue won't make it too due to stupid SCEA. if so i'm getting a 360 then. :D
There will be an English vocal track (optional, thank god) so SCEA didn't block it for release.

And BF is coming to US PSN!
 

Chowfahn

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Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the pre-order bonus at Gamestop is an artbook. They said in the podcast that there will be other bonuses, but they don't know what they are yet, or where they'll be sold. Probably Amazon or something.

I just wish they would get Daisuke Ishiwatari to do some of his awesome paintings for this game. It feels like the anime style's gonna get old really quick. He already wrote BB's music, it wouldn't be that far of a stretch.
 
I see that this is not GG, but it is supposed to be as in depth/difficult? I've never played any of the GG games, but from what I've read it sounds like the battle system is incredibly deep meaning that it would take a long time to learn. Is that what I should expect from this?