lukeskymac
Member
I don't remember what's the name of the fallacy where something which is the result of multiple factors is pinned on as a direct consequence of only one of those, but I know it exists.
You're doing that.
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Bolivia complains to France about country's portrayal in Ghost Recon: Wildlands
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
I don't remember what's the name of the fallacy where something which is the result of multiple factors is pinned on as a direct consequence of only one of those, but I know it exists.
You're doing that.
The Faceless Master
Member
yo might want to re-read that post i quoted.. it wasn't about drugs and Mexican references, it was about Mexican architecture and wildlife.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There are multiple reasons why gaming has a rampant sexism problem, the portrayal of women is part of that. "it's video games" is an intellectually dishonest argument.
1. Of course you can't sue someone over the portrayal of a place in a work of fiction. That would be just absurd!
2. It's unfortunate that Ubisoft has chosen to portray Bolivia in this way. I spent a month there and while it certainly has its fair share of issues, it is a fairly safe country that luckily mostly has been spared from the violent side of the narcotics trade. There is no lack of other Central and South American countries that would have been more appropriate for such a theme - but maybe there are other good reasons as to why Ubisoft chose Bolivia (I have not at all followed this game)?
2. It's unfortunate that Ubisoft has chosen to portray Bolivia in this way. I spent a month there and while it certainly has its fair share of issues, it is a fairly safe country that luckily mostly has been spared from the violent side of the narcotics trade. There is no lack of other Central and South American countries that would have been more appropriate for such a theme - but maybe there are other good reasons as to why Ubisoft chose Bolivia (I have not at all followed this game)?
Yes you could.
It's a work of fiction and it's not Ubisofts fault if there are uneducated brain dead people who would believe how Bolivia is portrayed in this game is representative of how the country actually is.
OfTheOverflow
Member
I guess they just saw the region as a safe target, the probably didn't want to kick the hornets nest by actually tackling countries that do have well known drug rings for whatever reason.
PEople are dumb. Like really dumb. How a place or people is portrayed by media definitely influences people's perceptions. How many people think all inner cities are like Chicago or any number of tropes that a tv show or a movie may portray black peoples?
The average young teen who's playing this and has no idea about Bolivia is probably going to think, wow Bolivia is a cartel ridden lawless place
chertipros
Member
Coming from a 3rd world country that gets misrepresented and slandered in the media all the time, I sympathize with any Bolivian who feels a type of way about the way their country is being portrayed in this game.
Barajas_201
Member
Yeah it really sucks for Bolivia. Ubisoft chose them as the narco-state country instead of Mexico purely out of money interest and ignorance because their game would get banned in Mexico, one of if not the biggest video game market in Latin America, for portraying the cartels as the status quo in the country. Bolivia is actually, from what I've read one of the peaceful countries in LA, the main narco ones are Colombia, Peru and of course Mexico.
FrankCanada97
Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
How was Battlefield Bad Company 2's portrayal of Bolivia received?
AcademicSaucer
Member
Ever since the reveal I felt sad that the 2 times I had seen Bolivia on popular media (Scarface and this game) is in a negative light, I lived a little over a year there and I have fond memories of my time there.
Orochinagis
Member
On the demo they put the locals as ignorants zealot people
Jack The Nipper
Banned
So where do we want the game to take place? The moon? Maybe ubisoft can edit all the cartels to have water guns and make it into a giant holiday/party. I wouldn't mind that honestly lol
Isn't everyone in the game ignorant zealot people? I call this bad AI, not by design?
It's beyond obvious they weren't making this game as a portrayal for what an area is/has or has to offer. They were making a GHOST RECON game and they can barely make this game that well. They can't also make realistic AI and a travel simulator on top of all of that can they? They aren't trying to show this country for what it may be , they are making a ghost recon game with focus on "shooting" and stopping enemies. I think that is what some of you simply aren't getting.
Isn't the premise of this game "what if Bolivia got invaded and controlled by a drug cartel"? So isn't anything incongruent with reality because of that absurd premise?
Your profile says you're Colombian so aren't you also a non affected telling people how to feel?
Your profile says you're Colombian so aren't you also a non affected telling people how to feel?
Paracelsus
Member
ctrl + f "brazil" "max payne 3"
mmmh.
mmmh.
Oh wow, he probably shouldn't watch McBain lol
It wouldn't have hurt to try to nuance the country a bit more with some positive sides (e.g. civilian NPCs or whatever) or alternatively just set it in a fictional country.
Also, Tom Clancy narratives are trash.
Good post.
Also, Tom Clancy narratives are trash.
Good post.
PaulExcellent
Member
K then I want Panama to not be a fucking slumtown every time they show it.
This just tells me that they grabbed the stereotypes they saw on novelas and shit and picked a country at random that sounded Hispanic enough. LOL
Great post, m8.
This just tells me that they grabbed the stereotypes they saw on novelas and shit and picked a country at random that sounded Hispanic enough. LOL
HueyFreeman
Banned
Åesop;231361455 said:
Nope - The video game world needs to start being more responsible. This medium is still basically at the "True Lies" phase of film making with overly simplistic and potentially harmful portrayals of other nations and peoples. Especially with the huge uptick in game consumption in the world in the last 15 years, developers and publishers need to get with the times.
Eljoacosupreme
Member
I am really suprised that it took them this long to complain.
I am from Bolivia and have mostly followed this game, not because it really interests me, but because of the whole "It is in my country" thing. Basically, I have watched the trailers, read some articles, and watched some gameplay (so its clear that my knowledge of it its just superficial)
To be honest my inital reaction was "A Ghost Recon set in Bolivia, cool!" and i was impressed with the landscapes and the overall geographical depiction of the terrain since i would say its fairly accurate to what can be found, even if its a little exagerated on some aspects. They even showed one of our traditional dances (the costumes were kinda funny looking but ok)
It really did not bother me, or even sparked an inner discussion of: Should this be bothering me? Perhaps it is because I am very used to Bolivia being depicted in a rather negative tone most of the time, not only by foreign media but also our own (Most of our cinema is a clear example of this). Hell, I showed the footage of the trailers to friends and family and nobody complained (they all just laughed whenever a cholita could be seen in the background)
Nevertheless i would say the context of the game is clear: A mexican cartel is taking over and the rural population cannot fight back, enter "ghosts with guns". Really, it is such a standard fictional setting that no one could take it seriously or link it to the real context of the country.
Having said all that, the part that really saddens me is that the minister is probably making all this fuzz as a political move, rather than an earnest attempt to improve the depiction of our lovely country.
I am from Bolivia and have mostly followed this game, not because it really interests me, but because of the whole "It is in my country" thing. Basically, I have watched the trailers, read some articles, and watched some gameplay (so its clear that my knowledge of it its just superficial)
To be honest my inital reaction was "A Ghost Recon set in Bolivia, cool!" and i was impressed with the landscapes and the overall geographical depiction of the terrain since i would say its fairly accurate to what can be found, even if its a little exagerated on some aspects. They even showed one of our traditional dances (the costumes were kinda funny looking but ok)
It really did not bother me, or even sparked an inner discussion of: Should this be bothering me? Perhaps it is because I am very used to Bolivia being depicted in a rather negative tone most of the time, not only by foreign media but also our own (Most of our cinema is a clear example of this). Hell, I showed the footage of the trailers to friends and family and nobody complained (they all just laughed whenever a cholita could be seen in the background)
Nevertheless i would say the context of the game is clear: A mexican cartel is taking over and the rural population cannot fight back, enter "ghosts with guns". Really, it is such a standard fictional setting that no one could take it seriously or link it to the real context of the country.
Having said all that, the part that really saddens me is that the minister is probably making all this fuzz as a political move, rather than an earnest attempt to improve the depiction of our lovely country.
This, but it could be handled more tastefully. Make it clear it's 2027 or something.
I am personally bothered not so much by the fact that they depicted Bolivia as a cartel-controlled country (it is a videogame and it is fiction set in the future, that's not an issue), but rather by the fact that they just took a bunch of cultural and visual elements which are not even Bolivian but that are probably recognisable to western audiences (deserts, Mexican Día de los Muertos and Santa Muerte, etc.) and just applied them to the country. Bolivia has its own cultural elements and its own indigenous themes and motives, it does not need to have the Mexican ones "copied and pasted".
They could have made the same storyline (Mexican cartels take over Bolivia in the not so distant future), but actually trying to reflect how Bolivia actually looks like. I mean, I've seen some landmarks (The Death Road, the Train Graveyard), but the towns and rest look generic and almost copied from Mexican settings.
The truth is that the devs don't really care, western audiences don't care either and they can just display Bolivia in the most bizarre and inaccurate of ways (as they did in Quantum of Solace, or in the Beirut and San José examples on this thread) and people will actually believe that that's how those countries look like.
And the truth is that many developing countries are misrepresented in the media all the time. Hollywood is the main offender.
Sure, you can criticize and if you feel hurt by the depiction it's all right too. But the possible legal action seems a tad silly. And if it happens, should be ruled in favor of Ubi.
Overall this is a good reminder to all devs on how they portray regions, people etc. and do they enforce harmful stereotypes.
Overall this is a good reminder to all devs on how they portray regions, people etc. and do they enforce harmful stereotypes.
I empathize with those who want a more accurate representation or just plain better accuracy in general when it comes to region and nation portrayal. That Jurassic Park example is a good one, and honestly it goes deeper with JP specifically as the misrepresentation of Paleontology and its research in the movie is well documented. What I think that highlights, granted as a movie example, is that media has, does, and likely always will take heavy liberties for the sake of entertainment over all else unless the piece of media's specific intent is documenting facts.
I mean, if you're not a from the US or Western in general you may think that the US is NYC, LA or Texas, maybe some Washington DC in there too, with all the innacuracies and misrepresentation included. Not using that as an excuse, just showing that innacurate representation for the sake of media entertainment is far reaching and happens to just about all nations the world over.
Discussing it and wanting it to be done better is completely fine and should happen, it helps bring attention to the true face of the people or nation in question if there's any doubt by those who are consuming this media, but I do think the Minister attempting to take legal action is a little ridiculous.
I mean, if you're not a from the US or Western in general you may think that the US is NYC, LA or Texas, maybe some Washington DC in there too, with all the innacuracies and misrepresentation included. Not using that as an excuse, just showing that innacurate representation for the sake of media entertainment is far reaching and happens to just about all nations the world over.
Discussing it and wanting it to be done better is completely fine and should happen, it helps bring attention to the true face of the people or nation in question if there's any doubt by those who are consuming this media, but I do think the Minister attempting to take legal action is a little ridiculous.
Orochinagis
Member
Yup except from the US themselves the rest of america is desert, drug dealers, no man land , free for all US playground
FrankCanada97
Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
I'm going to assume from the lack of responses to my earlier question that:
A: It was a fair portrayal of Bolivia.
Or
B: No one cared enough about it to make a fuss out of the bad portrayal.
A: It was a fair portrayal of Bolivia.
Or
B: No one cared enough about it to make a fuss out of the bad portrayal.
Spring-Loaded
Member
GameAddict411
Member
Åesop;231361455 said:
You won't be saying that if you lived in a small country and you find out that a foreign company is portraying it as a shit hole full of drugs and crime.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
If a person believes the game depicts Bolivia then I have to blame the person more than ubisoft there. I wouldn't imagine any game like this as some sort of representation.
I'd also firmly believe it isn't thier intent for the world not to portray the people and culture
It simoly isn't needed for the game they are making.
This is the same idea in mercenaries and just cause?
I'm not sure where those games take place but in mercenaries all you do is destroy the when area.
The game simply doesn't have the budget or time to portray everything. Sure, it would be incredible if any game had everything there like real life. But they just don't.
Now I'm curious where mercenaries took place though.
Not sure if it was mentioned or where it was based on.
Venezuela apparently.
I get that they often make countries look war torn and cartel based. It seems to be part of western culture to just feel ok with it and I can understand the worry in seeing the portrayal. I think the issue is more in the idea of assuming what is there rather than what's not included though
I'd also firmly believe it isn't thier intent for the world not to portray the people and culture
It simoly isn't needed for the game they are making.
This is the same idea in mercenaries and just cause?
I'm not sure where those games take place but in mercenaries all you do is destroy the when area.
The game simply doesn't have the budget or time to portray everything. Sure, it would be incredible if any game had everything there like real life. But they just don't.
Now I'm curious where mercenaries took place though.
Not sure if it was mentioned or where it was based on.
Venezuela apparently.
I get that they often make countries look war torn and cartel based. It seems to be part of western culture to just feel ok with it and I can understand the worry in seeing the portrayal. I think the issue is more in the idea of assuming what is there rather than what's not included though
Throwaway123456789
Member
Except it's a piece of fiction, clearly stated so, where a Mexican drug cartel has invaded and taken over the country.
Some responsibility lies on the consumer of the fiction to understand that it is indeed fiction.
We can't seriously mean that every piece of art, culture and other fictional forms of expression should be 100% in sync with real life?
Goose_Se7en
Banned
I'm from the US so I don't really feel any type of way but I think it's trivial. It's a video game and and as any medium, creators should be free to express themselves without worry for censorship.
You have to walk on eggshells nowadays, you can't say or do anything without anyone or a country apparently, being offended.
You have to walk on eggshells nowadays, you can't say or do anything without anyone or a country apparently, being offended.
Now this is a post.
Caricatures and imprecisions are quite common on various media's regarding Latin America, but looks like they went wrong too much here...
a very cute dog
Member
And it ain't even a good game.
Åesop;231361455 said:
I think your attitude is what is pathetic.
They are in their right to complain about how they are depicting their country in that game, or in any other media if that were the case.
Instead if Ubi had set the game in current Mexico, or in late 90s/early 00s in Colombia, no one would be complaining since it would have depicted a real or historical situation.
But in this case is a fictional story that depicts a country in way they are not like that. If it was some scifi or sey in the past, it would be different, but there will be a lot of players that will go through the game and when they are done with it they will just think about Bolivia about some very bad country.
Eljoacosupreme
Member
somehow I did not see your post. I actually played through Bad Company 2 and remeber being suprised that there was a level taking place in Bolivia. Memory is a bit fuzzy but i remember it being a jungle-like environment that could have been anywhere really, and that the only indicative of it taking place in Bolivia was a flag in the middle of an enemy camp or something like that.
so yeah not a bad portrayal i would say, but an effortless one that could have been anywhere else
Hierophant
Banned
yeah
maybe this would be a different story if the game was actually good and could maturely handle the subject matter of the scenario where cartels take over bolivia
but no, the games actually not very good and it handles it with the grace of a bull in a china shop while also not being a very good actual videogame
it is not good enough to argue for
Hierophant
Banned
NoHeDidn't
Member
No but seriously we have Homefront that turns U.S into North Korean U.S its fiction and takes liberties like any other form of media.Infact Bolivia should start addressing every 80-90s era movies and books that potray Bolivia along with other countries as drug havens.
Old Gimlet Eyes
Member
Exactly this. Should Ubi put a giant disclaimer each time you load the game that this doesn't actually reflect Bolivia?
Spladam
Member
You guys remember when the Simpsons had Homer get kidnapped in Brazil, there was a great amount of national outrage. I've had arguments with my friend in Brazil who still hates the Simpsons for this (there was a real life conterpart to this parody though, it is a problem, mainly for rich Brazilians, in Brazil).
But portrayal in media REALLY does affect a world view on cultures, and not just for the "uneducated". I have two friends from the Middle East who often complain about this, for good reason I think. Just look at the Homeland example posted in this thread.
But portrayal in media REALLY does affect a world view on cultures, and not just for the "uneducated". I have two friends from the Middle East who often complain about this, for good reason I think. Just look at the Homeland example posted in this thread.
Clever
This is the truth though.
TeddyShardik
Banned
I can sympathize with feeling your country got represented badly and critisizing the piece of media that did it for that.
But there is a big difference between criticism and an official complaint to the embassy of france. This just reeks of someone trying to drum up controversy against the evil french to direct people away from the actual problems in the country.
But there is a big difference between criticism and an official complaint to the embassy of france. This just reeks of someone trying to drum up controversy against the evil french to direct people away from the actual problems in the country.
But Homefront is just the timeline altered by CERN where Trump goes to war with NK, and loses.