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Brady or Belichick?

Who contributed MOST the the Patriots' dynasty?

  • Brady

    Votes: 26 41.3%
  • Belichick

    Votes: 15 23.8%
  • Bit of both (cringe, probably true but that's why I used "most" in the poll Q)

    Votes: 22 34.9%

  • Total voters
    63

Tschumi

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Jul 4, 2020
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I, like some of you I'm sure, get extremely activated by the few-month long NFL season whenever it rolls around. Actually, I'm pretty high on NFL most of the year 'round, but I dial it up come this time o' year.

There are a lot of great narratives around the league at the moment - Hall of Fame QBs with only a handful of SB rings between them (Brees, Rothlisberger, Rodgers, Wilson) pushing for one last title; the new gun who is next off the rank in the GOAT debate (Mahomes), GOAT kickers, meme Tight Ends - but one of the more serious narratives I wanna settle once and for all here is Tom Brady vs. Bill Belickick, re: Patriots' greatness.

Now, the dudes at ESPN First Take - Stephen A and co - flop around about this as they do most things. One week Stephen A is fire and brimstone one way, next week he's backtracked and picked up another shovelful of fire and brimstone. Max the same, with simpering qualifications thrown in. This new guy Clark, who used to be a Steeluh, seems a bit better but he misses the mark sometimes. I'm appealing to GAF to sort this out.

What do you think?

Now, I think it was Belickick. I think the first few games of this season made it clear - he adapted his offense to suit a totally new QB and it was working really well, despite missing heaps of COVID-19 abstainers and a few more to injury. Then Cam got COVID-19 and it's been down since then - but has it been that down? The loss last week came from a Cam fumble. The loss to Seattle came from a Cam rushing failure. Belichick is still getting the pats to within winning range on final drives. I still think they'll finish above .500.

The case for Brady is more straightforward, or is it? He's gotten better most weeks under center at his pet team, he's surrounded by weapons, everything's right for him to be the best he can be and, all power to him, he's living up to that scaffolding. He might actually win an SB, like Peyton Manning got a late one with the Broncos in an offense that was devoted to getting the best out of his talents. But does this mean he was the reason for the Patriot's dynasty?

I mean, sure, it's probably a bit of both, but I personally think it was Belichick. The guy's a [cheater] genius, rule [breaker] bender, boundary pusher, he's adaptive as hell on both sides of the ball and an excellent recruiter. The Draft system is famously designed to stop teams being elite for as long as the Pats have been - but he's gotten around that with smart trades and picks.

TL;DR - Tschumi say Belichick.

Anyways, what do you guys think? Take me to school~
 
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MrS

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It was a great marriage. GOAT coach, GOAT player. Gotta say Belichick contributed more because as GM he had to draft and make free agency moves for all 3 phases whereas Brady only directly influenced offense. That's without even mentioning the coaching Belichick did, the hires he made, cap management etc. I would never try to diminish or minimise Brady's impact though, none of this would be possible without his leadership and his comebacks and clutchness are NFL legend.
 
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synchronicity

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Definitely Belichick. Don't be misled by this season. Brady is on an absolutely stacked roster and the Pats have the most covd opt-outs in the league and are really thin in general. Coaching, no matter how great, can't overcome all things.

Brady is great, no doubt, but if he wound up under different tutelage or in a different scenario coming out of college, he likely wouldn't be considered the GOAT imho.
 

DESTROYA

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As a lifelong Pats fan it’s definitely a combo of both , the Pats would of never won or been in more SP with a different combo.
 
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Tschumi

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As a lifelong Pats fan it’s definitely a combo of both , the Pats would of never won or been in more SP with a different combo.
I sometimes muse about what might have happened if Rodgers had been in Brady's place~
 

diffusionx

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Just to satisfy my geekdom, what event in 2012 caused this seismic shift, to you?

that is not a hard dividing line, I picked it because they lost the 2011 SB and went through some changes. I mean Aaron Hernandez was a feature player on that squad. I just think of those 10s teams as Brady’s in the same way as the Colts were under Manning.
 
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Megatron

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I tend to lean Bill I’ll, but this year is making a case for Tom.
 
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Tschumi

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can i just say if brady loses against the giants tonight the context of this thread must surely warp pretty heavily
 

Men_in_Boxes

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If Brady got drafted by the Buffalo Bills in 2000, he would have just earned a "Thanks for 15 years of service" award at an insurance company.

Bill Belichick would be the GOAT coach, in all of sports, as long as his owner spends.
 
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dagZ

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brady. not even close. belichick is on the sidelines, brady is the one who's making the plays actually happen.
 
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bender

Bending Rodríguez (22, 1,729)
Apr 12, 2010
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Tony Romo



It takes one hell of a coach to bring that much out of one hell of a QB

True, Parcells made this butterfly sprout wings and fly. Then Bum's son and Carrot Tops' dorky brother ruined him.
 
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Amory

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It was both. Brady is a winner and a great QB, but he's not "Tom F'n Brady" without Belichick. And Belichick was always a good coach (and a far underrated GM, too), but that doesn't mean shit without an elite QB.
 
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GymWolf

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The only baseball guy i know it's babe ruth, mostly because super sloth eat a candy bar with his name...

Oh wait, and the guy who get kidnapped in ace ventura 1.
 
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Trafalgar Law

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it was both
but brady wasreally just a clutch game manager in the first 2 super bowls , he didn't become all time special till later in his career
also brady LITERALLY WON HIS LAST SUPERBOWL WITH 13 POINTS, it was another defensive master class won by bill

this season the patriots got gutted by injuries and covid, cam is likely still kinda hampered by covid and also missed time

also gilmore , They lost Hightower, Pat Chung, Van Noy, Jamie Collins, Duron Harmon all to Free Agency/Covid Opt outs and never replaced any of them
 

Swauny Jones

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Belichick easily. Brady was basically a game manager for his first two rings and grew into the QB he is now and even then he's a product of the system
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Slaves to the moment! The lot of you!

Brady went to a roster that was generally viewed as one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. A roster that was held back by a bad QB play over the last 4 years.

The New England Patriots aren't spending to the cap this year. They literally weren't trying to compete.

So looking at their records through 8 games this year and coming to a conclusion is a fools errand!
 

GymWolf

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You didn't watch ProStars as a kid? That had Wayne Gretzky in it, so you should know three.
I'm italian and i don't even know what prostars is...
Maybe it was called with another name here where i live, but i never had interest for the sport of baseball, i was more a soccer-basketball guy.
 
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I'm italian and i don't even know what prostars is...
Maybe it was called with another name here where i live, but i never had interest for the sport of baseball, i was more a soccer-basketball guy.
Oh, I thought you were just making a joke listing random players from random sports :pie_grinning_sweat:
 

Eric187

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Definitely both. This season has just been a nightmare for the pats so far. Had Cam not contracted COVID I think they’d have a better record at least. It’s not belichicks fault a lot of players opted out this season.
 

Thabass

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thats a cool story considering he was voted "coach of the year" 3 times

He's both is what I meant. He has the additional role of GM, which makes him more important. I choose Belichick over Brady. But Brady is still the GOAT QB.
 

Super Mario

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Leadership impact in professional sports is overrated. Ever notice how some of the best coaches just so happened to be paired with the best players of their generation? Belichick isn't going to lead a poor team to a Superbowl.

That isn't saying the coach isn't an important role. It absolutely is, and he is one of the best. Many coaches' career are heavily influenced though by being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time though.
 

yuadesa

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The Draft system is famously designed to stop teams being elite for as long as the Pats have been - but he's gotten around that with smart trades and picks.

what picks have the pats hit recently? they've hustled others in trades (not hating) but cant draft for shit. havent drafted any pro bowlers since 2013, right up there with the bengals. no team can strike big every year but now that you dont have TB to cover up for your mistakes ole belis gotta step up.
 

Lionel Richie

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Belichick. The Pats being that good for that long wasn't just because they were getting exceptional play from their QB. Everyone balled out of their minds for 20 years. This is a down year for sure so it will eschew things a bit, but don't count them out. They were right there against the Bills and the Chiefs until their shit QBs played them out of those games. If Newton is able to be at least average and not atrocious, they could make the playoffs.
 

oagboghi2

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Slaves to the moment! The lot of you!

Brady went to a roster that was generally viewed as one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. A roster that was held back by a bad QB play over the last 4 years.

The New England Patriots aren't spending to the cap this year. They literally weren't trying to compete.

So looking at their records through 8 games this year and coming to a conclusion is a fools errand!
And whose fault is that?

the New England patriots sold out their future to remain top contenders for about 3 years. Okay, that gives Bill more time to prove it was all him. He wll draft the QB he wants, build the team he wants. If the patriots are competitive again in 2-3 years, it will be all him.

if they can’t, than it will be undeniable that Tom Brady played a bigger role than “game manager”
 
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Jul 3, 2020
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Brady. Most Super Bowl quarterbacks have a number of potential Hall of Famers that make plays. Brady had very few.

Belichick's record without Brady is around .500 That's not necessarily an insult to Belichick. When Belichick had a franchise quarterback, he won. Many coaches lose even when they do have a franchise quarterback. But when Belichick doesn't have a franchise quarterback, it doesn't matter how good of a coach he is.
 

n0razi

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Its a bit of both... I honestly dont think Michael Jordan would have all his rings without Phil Jackson
 

Havoc2049

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We can't really make an informed decision at this point. Belichick doesn't even have a half way decent QB.

At this point in the season, when your QB has these kinds of stats, it doesn't matter who the coach is, you ain't winning shit.

Cam Newton
Pct: 66
Yds: 1143
TD: 2
INT: 7
QBR: 73.2


 
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chimpsteaks

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This idea that we have to choose one of them to give the lions share of the credit to for their rings is like Skip Bayless tier surface level analysis. A GOAT caliber coach got a GOAT caliber QB for 20 years, it was a perfect storm for a dynasty just like the Chicago Bulls were
 
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Tschumi

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If Brady was under Belichick would he be down 0-21 inside the first half of this match? :lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire::lollipop_fire:
 

Tschumi

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If Tom Brady was 43 as he is now?

Yeah maybe.
i can see how that idea plays out on 'first take'...

Max Kellerman: Brady is PAST IT
Stephen A: NAAHH

*next week Brady is fine again*

Max Kellerman: I NEVER SAID Brady was PAAAST it, I said his coaches sucked
Stephen A: NAAAHH
 

Dr Bass

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i can see how that idea plays out on 'first take'...

Max Kellerman: Brady is PAST IT
Stephen A: NAAHH

*next week Brady is fine again*

Max Kellerman: I NEVER SAID Brady was PAAAST it, I said his coaches sucked
Stephen A: NAAAHH

Well I am not a fan of sports talking heads. Check out this clip from a cartoon that in 24 years will be one hundred years old.


Watch the first two plays and listen to how similar the announcer sounds to current sports casters in terms of how they change their minds.

Brady is 43. He is just going to have more ups and downs in his performance, instead of being able to play your best week in and week out. He really should retire IMO. He's my favorite QB of all time at this point and I think he's probably going to make a fool of himself out there over the rest of this year. At least, compared to what he was before.
 
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Tschumi

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Well I am not a fan of sports talking heads. Check out this clip from a cartoon that in 24 years will be one hundred years old.


Watch the first two plays and listen to how similar the announcer sounds to current sports casters in terms of how they change their minds.

Brady is 43. He is just going to have more ups and downs in his performance, instead of being able to play your best week in and week out. He really should retire IMO. He's my favorite QB of all time at this point and I think he's probably going to make a fool of himself out there over the rest of this year. At least, compared to what he was before.
i hear u man, and i love that cartoon ,but nah i don't think he's having a down week because of age, i just think the saints' defense is keyed up real well and he's just not getting looks. i think he's got a few touchdowns in him this game once his O gets on top of it's own game, at least. Brady ain't playing like a 43 year old this season, because he's surrounded by great weapons... his weapons are failing him so far this match. Imo.

EDIT: that's why i suggest he wouldn't be in this place under belichick, i think he would be smarter at unlocking the saint's D
 
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Dr Bass

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i hear u man, and i love that cartoon ,but nah i don't think he's having a down week because of age, i just think the saints' defense is keyed up real well and he's just not getting looks. i think he's got a few touchdowns in him this game once his O gets on top of it's own game, at least. Brady ain't playing like a 43 year old this season, because he's surrounded by great weapons... his weapons are failing him so far this match. Imo.

I'm not watching it. I believe you. I guess I was speaking more generally about his age. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Tschumi

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I'm not watching it. I believe you. I guess I was speaking more generally about his age. 🤷‍♂️
in that sense i agree with u, he's definitely in unknown territory with his age... i think this'll be a one- or two-season fling, like Peyton did at the end with the Broncos... I don't think he'll have enough to get an SB over the Chiefs or, this season, them Stilluhs
 

Dr Bass

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in that sense i agree with u, he's definitely in unknown territory with his age... i think this'll be a one- or two-season fling, like Peyton did at the end with the Broncos... I don't think he'll have enough to get an SB over the Chiefs or, this season, them Stilluhs

Agree. I kinda wish he had just retired. It's always been weird watching greats like Jordan, Montana etc. taking too long to call it quits.
 
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Cleared_Hot

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Tom wouldn't be who is today without Bill. There's no doubt in my mind Tom is the GOAT, but he learned a ton from Bill.
 
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