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[PjotrStroganov]

Well, I guess they were excited by the fact that XNA express allows you to make games for PC free and make games that you can try for 360 for free too. It's certainly a step above everything else out there.

AFAIK, nowhere is being said that these indie games are going to be free on XBLA. The freeware dev set will however allow you to make free PC games but I'm sure Microsoft will demand at least a very small fee for each game when released on Live Arcade. As a consequence, making it not free. Maybe there will be trail versions, as is the case now.

 

[Tat]

First sane post of the thread.

Nice one.

 

[Proelite]

AFAIK, nowhere is being said that these indie games are going to be free on XBLA. The freeware dev set will however allow you to make free PC games but I'm sure Microsoft will demand at least a very small fee for each game when released on Live Arcade. As a consequence, making it not free. Maybe there will be trail versions, as is the case now.

I was talking about the fact that you can try your own game on the 360 for free after your create it. The $99 was to join the creator's circle. As for what you said, I don't think this has to anything to do with xbla anytime soon.

 

[Vark]

AFAIK, nowhere is being said that these indie games are going to be free on XBLA. The freeware dev set will however allow you to make free PC games but I'm sure Microsoft will demand at least a very small fee for each game when released on Live Arcade. As a consequence, making it not free. Maybe there will be trail versions, as is the case now.

They won't be free, you'll only be able to share them with other people in the program.

Like I said before, this primarily for students and hobbiests to have a go at developing on a closed system. This isn't for making the "next big thing" (but proven it works some intrepid youth could certainly develop a full project based on a demo or something, see 'Portal').

 

[JCBossman]

Christmas 2006: but MOM, I need a 360 so I can LEARN to be a game developer, and get me a copy of GOW and Dead Rising just for inspriration, Oh and MOM, make SURE it ain't A 'tard as I NEED that hard drive for my "Creative Juices"

 

[Proelite]

Christmas 2006: but MOM, I need a 360 so I can LEARN to be a game developer, and get me a copy of GOW and Dead Rising just for inspriration, Oh and MOM, make SURE it ain't A 'tard as I NEED that hard drive for my "Creative Juices"

Lol. Good luck to the kids whose parents forces them to start programming on the 360 as homework. :lol

 

[BuzzJive]

(lots of stuff...)

The only thing that you're not putting enough weight in to is having a console as a target platform. Personally, I much prefer console development to PC development. Having a defined target platform with a defined input interface (controller) is a big plus. I don't want to have to think about the specs and peripherals of my machine, let alone somebody elses machine. If I want to collaborate with somebody else on a game, we both know exactly how it is going to run on eachother's machines. That's what puts this ahead of Torque and other PC based game engines IMO.

 

[rastex]

It's a full encapsulated tile / particle / level editor where you can basically drag and drop crap and for the most part make a functional 2d game. Everything else you can handle via torque script and get a fully functional 2d game running without ever launching a compilier.

If you can script, you can use TGB.

I haven't been following the Torque scene this past while. How are the physics capabilities of the engine?

 

[KeithFranklin]

Why do people still say you need to pay $99 to make XBOX 360 games?

XNA Studio Express edition is free. You can make XBOX 360 games for free. The $99 fee allows you to actually play them on the 360. If you simply want to learn you can make them on a PC and only choose to pay the $99 when you want to actually play that game on the 360 and distribute to others to play on a 360.

If I am not undertanding this correctly please point me to a discussion elsewhere that states that XNA Studio Express will require the $99 fee.

 

[Proelite]

Why do people still say you need to pay $99 to make XBOX 360 games?

XNA Studio Express edition is free. You can make XBOX 360 games for free. The $99 fee allows you to actually play them on the 360. If you simply want to learn you can make them on a PC and only choose to pay the $99 when you want to actually play that game on the 360 and distribute to others to play on a 360.

If I am not undertanding this correctly please point me to a discussion elsewhere that states that XNA Studio Express will require the $99 fee.

I thought testing the game on the 360 is also free. The only cost was the entry fee for the creator's club.

 

[jgkspsx]

So... anybody suddenly more excited about a Microsoft handheld?

 

[Vark]

I haven't been following the Torque scene this past while. How are the physics capabilities of the engine?

It's got full rigid body support and a few other nice touches included mounts with variable forces.

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgb/features/physics

 

[gofreak]

I thought testing the game on the 360 is also free. The only cost was the entry fee for the creator's club.

You need to be in the creators' club to run (and thus test) your code on your 360.

If you're not in the creator's club, you can still make games, but you're really making for PC then, not 360. You could make a 360 build, but that hardly makes sense if you can't actually run it subsequently..in other words, if you want to make 360 games, then yeah, you really do need to pay that subscription fee.

 

[gofreak]

Looking at the official forums, you will need coding skills with this afterall. Apparently in the long term they aim to lower the barrier in terms of required skills, but for now you won't be able to go in and make a game without writing code, as Ars Technica suggested.

 

[SteveMeister]

Christmas 2006: but MOM, I need a 360 so I can LEARN to be a game developer, and get me a copy of GOW and Dead Rising just for inspriration, Oh and MOM, make SURE it ain't A 'tard as I NEED that hard drive for my "Creative Juices"

Just pointing out, once again, that you can buy the HDD separately, so even people "stuck" with core packs can get in on the Creator Club if they want to. They're not forever closed off from anything the HDD provides just because they spent $299 initially rather than $399.

 

[Proelite]

So, who would this program, on the 360 side, benefit? I don't think the 360 side will take off with the $99 subscription fee, even though it's several hundred dollars cheaper than the closest thing, which is xbla development. I think a lof of students of the XNA courses would benefit from this program, but not necessarily hobbysts.

 

[Argyle]

I applaud MS for making this move - I'm not sure it will revolutionize the industry or anything, though. To me it looks like PS2Linux with better tools and a subscription cost instead of a one-time charge - same limited userbase (at least for now) and if the initial burst of enthusiasm doesn't carry over, I don't know if they will have enough content to launch their Newgrounds-like site.

I signed up for the beta to take a look at it...but I would expect performance to be poor, possibly too slow to decode HD video with a modern codec. We'll have to see how much of the 360 they will really expose, but for those of you expecting a custom XBMC that can play everything, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high...especially if they limit the way that apps can interact with the network.

 

[GG-Duo]

support (including good SDK) and visibility is what makes or breaks it. We've been here before with stuff like Newgrounds.com...

 

[blackadde]

this is neat and all, but i really don't see how people who didn't bother developing indie pc games (for free, no less) are going to all of a sudden eat a subscription fee and start coding just because now they can push pixels through a set-top box.

 

[Russ]

this is neat and all, but i really don't see how people who didn't bother developing indie pc games (for free, no less) are going to all of a sudden eat a subscription fee and start coding just because now they can push pixels through a set-top box.

For indie devs this is a godsend. I can now easily put my TGB code on my X360, and since that is the platform I've been deving for I couldn't ask for anything more.

 

[TerryLee81]

Oh yeah, I have a feeling this will be the comeback of 2D Adventure games!

 

[krypt0nian]

Oh yeah, I have a feeling this will be the comeback of 2D Adventure games!

This should have happened on the DS already. =(

 

[element]

spacewar source code will be included in the beta.

 

[GashPrex]

wow, i love how 99 per year is a huge deal to people - if it was 99 a month I could see a problem, but come on.

The tools, support and distribution that you will have access to is great and I have no idea why people are trying to downplay this.

 

[Shogmaster]

wow, i love how 99 per year is a huge deal to people - if it was 99 a month I could see a problem, but come on.

The tools, support and distribution that you will have access to is great and I have no idea why people are trying to downplay this.

These people physically hurt inside when something good happens to MS. I've met them. They are real people with real symptoms!

 

[SteveMeister]

Anything that encourages hobbyist game development -- especially in an organized fashion as this appears to be -- is a GOOD thing.

 

[White Man]

These people physically hurt inside when something good happens to MS. I've met them. They are real people with real symptoms!

I particularly like the people on certain forums bitching about how only Windows users get to make games. Um, duh? C#? Managed code? Microsoft? I'm sure MS is totally interested in making *nix versions of the CLR.

EDIT: Like I said, Rape Rape High School, starring Diablos and Orin.

Or a #ga simulator, where a few downtrodden videogame enthusiasts try to steal back the conversation from rabid sports and prowrestling fans.

 

[Shogmaster]

I particularly like the people on certain forums bitching about how only Windows users get to make games. Um, duh? C#? Managed code? Microsoft? I'm sure MS is totally interested in making *nix versions of the CLR.

EDIT: Like I said, Rape Rape High School, starring Diablos and Orin.

Or a #ga simulator, where a few downtrodden videogame enthusiasts try to steal back the conversation from rabid sports and prowrestling fans.

I'm not feelin' that rape rape highschool game, but I'm feelin' that #ga simulator.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Considering how much a dev kit would cost you, $99 a ****ing year is a steal. No one should be complaining about the price. This is a good idea, period. It was a good idea in the past, and it'll continue to be a good idea in the future. Sony and MS are definitely taking a different approach to the industry than Nintendo. PEACE.

 

[Mr.Potato Head]

Only MS would do such a thing for the price of the package.. they have the experience in the software biz..its only natural to see such a thing on their console based machine..props to MS for such a great idea.

 

[Mr.Potato Head]

wow, i love how 99 per year is a huge deal to people - if it was 99 a month I could see a problem, but come on.

The tools, support and distribution that you will have access to is great and I have no idea why people are trying to downplay this.

Jealousy? Fanboyism? Its one of the two or both

 

[Pimpwerx]

Only MS would do such a thing... they have the experience in the software biz..its only natural to see such a thing on their console based machine..props to MS for such a great idea.

Not sure if you know, but this isn't the first time a manufacturer supported homebrew. There was the PS2 Linux Kit and the Net Yaroze for the PS1. The PS3 also has something planned, and now the 360 does as well. I'm not sure if there was anything before the PS1. It's a good way for manufacturers to support homebrew in a controlled manner. PEACE.

 

[gofreak]

wow, i love how 99 per year is a huge deal to people - if it was 99 a month I could see a problem, but come on.

The tools, support and distribution that you will have access to is great and I have no idea why people are trying to downplay this.

No one's downplaying that, but might be wondering why they have to pay to build and test on 360 when it's free on the PC, with the same tools. i.e. what more are we getting for the $99/year? If you're getting lots more resources, then great.

That asides, I still think there ought to be a 'no frills' option where you wouldn't get access to those resources, but could still build and run for free.

 

[Mr.Potato Head]

Not sure if you know, but this isn't the first time a manufacturer supported homebrew. There was the PS2 Linux Kit and the Net Yaroze for the PS1. The PS3 also has something planned, and now the 360 does as well. I'm not sure if there was anything before the PS1. It's a good way for manufacturers to support homebrew in a controlled manner. PEACE.

Yeah i did..i never got into it but i knew about it somewhat. What im really stoked about is Microsoft and its set of development tools they will provide. I expect them to be much more user friendly then any thing else, or what (PS2) had before..simply because MS is behind it...thats what has me stoked.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm not feelin' that rape rape highschool game, but I'm feelin' that #ga simulator.

Oh shit. What if we're playing it now, and the simulation is so complete, we forgot where we were!?

 

[Piper Az]

No one's downplaying that, but might be wondering why they have to pay to build and test on 360 when it's free on the PC, with the same tools. i.e. what more are we getting for the $99/year? If you're getting lots more resources, then great.

That asides, I still think there ought to be a 'no frills' option where you wouldn't get access to those resources, but could still build and run for free.

XNA (or XNA express) is free on the PC? That's news to me. Besides, at this early point, MS is just testing the water (along with some universities' program).

And you & others in this thread imply that designing games on the 360 for free is somekind of right/entitlement. Stop comparing to the PC market. Console market has been one of the most closed, proprietary environment as far as I can remember. Developers pay royalties to make and publish games on a particular platform. It's fundamentaly different than PCs. I'm actually amazed that MS has long-term plans to open this program as Youtube-like where anyone can contribute & share their games (without buying debug 360 kits!). It's a great promotion for anyone who's interested in designing games (now w/ $99 or later when it's likely to be cheaper/free). Stop the hate. Be happy.

 

[Cosmozone]

I particularly like the people on certain forums bitching about how only Windows users get to make games. Um, duh? C#? Managed code? Microsoft? I'm sure MS is totally interested in making *nix versions of the CLR.

You nailed it. If MS had done this based on plain C/C++, now that would've been something. Of course, there's no way in hell they'd do such a thing. As long as it's strictly linked to the 360, it isn't even that bad since a console is proprietary and exposed to competition by nature. I just hope the people keep an open mind.

 

[gofreak]

XNA (or XNA express) is free on the PC? That's news to me.

Yes (Express).

And you & others in this thread imply that designing games on the 360 for free is somekind of right/entitlement. Stop comparing to the PC market. Console market has been one of the most closed, proprietary environment as far as I can remember. Developers pay royalties to make and publish games on a particular platform. It's fundamentaly different than PCs. I'm actually amazed that MS has long-term plans to open this program as Youtube-like where anyone can contribute & share their games (without buying debug 360 kits!). It's a great promotion for anyone who's interested in designing games (now w/ $99 or later when it's likely to be cheaper/free). Stop the hate. Be happy.

Don't get me wrong. This isn't hate. This is a really welcome move. But I do think it'd be better still if it was free to build and run on your 360. That youtube system you're talking about? The entire community itself could engage in that immediately if it was free to build-and-run. Anyone could make games, for free, and anyone could download and play them. I'm not going to harp on it, but I don't think anyone would disagree that this would be much more desireable. I only reiterate it because it's such a small extra thing that could make a big big difference.

(I'm sure the $99/year will get you more than just the 'right' to build and test, like I said before, but it'd be nice if that ability was filtered out of that fee)

Yeah i did..i never got into it but i knew about it somewhat. What im really stoked about is Microsoft and its set of development tools they will provide. I expect them to be much more user friendly then any thing else, or what (PS2) had before..simply because MS is behind it...thats what has me stoked.

You could use MS tools on these platforms. Obviously you can only use the libraries and such that are available on your target platform (no XNA here!), but if you wanted to just use a nice MS IDE for writing your code, for example, you could certainly do that. Some people even set up Visual Studio for remote compile and builds on PS2. Other purely content-related tools would be independent of your code target too.

Ease of use in this case may also to a point come at a cost of your abstraction from the hardware but that's more or less relevant depending on the type of coder you are and what you might want to do.

 

[Shogmaster]

Oh shit. What if we're playing it now, and the simulation is so complete, we forgot where we were!?

WHAT IS TEH MATRIX?!?

 

[soul creator]

since I'm already a TGE license holder, do I get a discount?

haha

 

[sefskillz]

since I'm already a TGE license holder, do I get a discount?

haha

on torque x? maybe, i doubt it. they've had some early adopter pricing going for a long time now on their current products, but with all the hype around this move i bet they're gonna be putting a hefty price tag on this bad boy.

 

[Lord Error]

spacewar source code will be included in the beta.

Haha, that's great.

That old spacewar, one of the first games ever made?

 

[rastex]

I'm sure the $99/year will get you more than just the 'right' to build and test, like I said before, but it'd be nice if that ability was filtered out of that fee

I think anybody that really cares about building and playing these homebrew applications is the sort that would already have the developer's liscense anyway. Especially at the beginning when everybody is going to be figuring out best practises and all of that. When the dev community matures and starts pumping out some semi-decent games is when I'm sure the system will be opened up. But for now, and the next year or two, it's really a moot point.

 

[Russ]

Sony fans want everything to be free. And so far all their services are free, and nonexistant. :lol

 

[ezekial45]

I'm actually interested in Game Development and i'd like to see how this turns out. I'm not really great at programming (I failed the class twice) and these "newbie-friendly" tools seem pretty interesting.

 

[Proelite]

Sony fans want everything to be free. And so far all their services are free, and nonexistant. :lol

GTFO. Please don't derail this thread.

 

[chaostrophy]

This really deserves to be called "megaton" non-sarcastically. Awesome move by MS.

I do think they should make the indie games more easily available to people who don't want to drop so much money on a club membership. If I were in charge at MS, I'd just make all the games available in a seperate section of the Live Marketplace, and just charge a small amount for each download. Ideally the charge would be enough to cover the bandwidth and server costs of hosting the game, but small enough that someone could potentially download a game they end up hating and not feel like they wasted a significant amount of money. Like 25 points or so.

 

[aaaaa0]

I do think they should make the indie games more easily available to people who don't want to drop so much money on a club membership. If I were in charge at MS, I'd just make all the games available in a seperate section of the Live Marketplace, and just charge a small amount for each download.

They've already said they're working towards something like that in the future.

As a first step, the $99 club membership is fine, as it's going to take a while for people to get comfortable with the tools and start making things actually worth downloading anyway.

 

[blackadde]

For indie devs this is a godsend. I can now easily put my TGB code on my X360, and since that is the platform I've been deving for I couldn't ask for anything more.

if you're already deving for 360, you already have a dev kit, no? just wondering. to me this thread just kind of reads like - "whoa, indie games! i never once supported that shit on my pc, but imagine if i could play it on my console!" - which is just bizarre to me. maybe i am just too much of a pc junkie .

(don't get me wrong though, ANYTHING to open up console development is a positive thing in my eyes.)

 

[Wunderchu]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10458

'Talking on the eve of its Gamefest event in Seattle, Microsoft has revealed XNA Game Studio Express, a new product which will allow indie developers and students to develop simultaneously on Xbox 360 and PC, and share their games to others in a new Xbox 360 'Creators Club'.

The details of the new tech are as follows: XNA Game Studio Express will be available for free to anyone with a Windows XP-based PC, and will provide them with what's described as "Microsoft's next-generation platform for game development." In addition, by joining a "creators club" for an annual subscription fee of $99, users will be able to build, test and share their games on Xbox 360, as well as access a wealth of materials to help speed the game development progress.'

great news for the game industry, IMO .. thank you, Microsoft