Brexit

Jan 20, 2013
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#51
After the events in the UK Parliament of the last few days makes me ashamed to be British, especially considerating the one great world wide power we used to be. it seems the people in parliament just want to play petty politics rather than actually deal with the issues that affect our nation head on. All the conversations are about blame and dis-ownership, rather than any practical detail of what needs to change to move forward. What is involved in emigrating to the USA and getting American citizenship! Failing that Australia is nice.
 
Mar 19, 2015
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#52
I voted 'yes' for Scottish independence and 'yes' for Brexit. Now the SNP are fully on the EU train. I don't know who to vote for now.
 
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Makariel

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#53
I'm getting the feeling that any other EU member has now more plans in place than the UK for the looming no-deal brexit. I've seen Boris yesterday night talking how May would have now a mandate to get back to the EU and get a better deal. What exactly is that guy on? This is just bizarre.
 
Aug 22, 2018
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#54
I'm getting the feeling that any other EU member has now more plans in place than the UK for the looming no-deal brexit. I've seen Boris yesterday night talking how May would have now a mandate to get back to the EU and get a better deal. What exactly is that guy on? This is just bizarre.
It is unfortunate that our government is currently a shambles.
 
Dec 11, 2018
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#55
Not British but European here. I think this whole "Brexit" thing is kind of a smokescreen or red herring. It's not like after March or whenever they actually leave the EU, the UK will leave the port and sail to another world or something.

The UK and continental Europe will always be linked in many ways, especially in modern times. Through treaties, trade, exchange of ideas, people. It doesn't really matter if you call that "European Union", "European League" or "Friends of Europe" or whatever. Some details change but Europe will still be Europe (including the UK).

I think that Europe as a whole will continue to diminish, though. That's the true challenge in my view.
 
Aug 22, 2018
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#56
Not British but European here. I think this whole "Brexit" thing is kind of a smokescreen or red herring. It's not like after March or whenever they actually leave the EU, the UK will leave the port and sail to another world or something.

The UK and continental Europe will always be linked in many ways, especially in modern times. Through treaties, trade, exchange of ideas, people. It doesn't really matter if you call that "European Union", "European League" or "Friends of Europe" or whatever. Some details change but Europe will still be Europe (including the UK).

I think that Europe as a whole will continue to diminish, though. That's the true challenge in my view.
Indeed, and I have no desire to see the UK and Europe fight, or stop doing business with each other. It's simply a different set of trading and movement terms, no more no less. That our membership of a somewhat unaccountable multinational body has become such an emotive issue is bizarre in many ways.
 
Dec 28, 2008
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#57
I'm getting the feeling that any other EU member has now more plans in place than the UK for the looming no-deal brexit. I've seen Boris yesterday night talking how May would have now a mandate to get back to the EU and get a better deal. What exactly is that guy on? This is just bizarre.
That's nuts. EU has no reason to offer the UK a better deal. They didn't want you to leave, so why wouldn't they just let the UK crash out of the union as an example to others? Elections have consequences.
 
Oct 24, 2017
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#58
As long crazy people like Juncker ar part of the EU or Germany aka Merkel has so much to say in it I would also vote to leave. The EU is in so much so out of touch. They have no idea whats going on in the real world and this is the case in almost every aspect. The current EU is a fucking mess
 
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Noboru Wataya

Bored at work, horned up to the gills
Jul 8, 2016
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#59
The complete lack of concern around Northern Ireland’s situation re: backstop and the Good Friday Agreement is pretty revolting.

We already know that they don’t give a fuck about our country and they are just trailing us along (even though we were remainers) regardless of the damage that may be done to the peace process.

Only recently they have been training thousands of riot police to be sent over to Northern Ireland in the coming months. Worrying times ahead and it’s of no consequence to those old fucks in suits.

And that shrek looking bitch Arlene Foster denying there was never a hard border during the troubles in the 70s live on TV. Cheers May for giving that slug and her DUP cronies a platform to prop you up, I’m sure she regrets it now even if they do help keep her as PM. Doesn’t help that Arlene acts like she is the president of Northern Ireland due to having no government for over 730 days!
 
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Aug 22, 2018
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#60
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...claration-concerning-the-withdrawal-agreement

To cut a long story short, the legal advice is that the deal is still shit. That means the vote at 7PM GMT today is likely to be a government defeat. I see no possible way May's deal goes through, which means that with no parliamentary majorities for no brexit or a referendum the likely outcome is now no deal.


The markets usually have the best idea of what's going on - if they think it's a fucking mess, chances are it's a fucking mess. 3% off the £ in a few hours.
 
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May 4, 2005
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#61
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...claration-concerning-the-withdrawal-agreement

To cut a long story short, the legal advice is that the deal is still shit. That means the vote at 7PM GMT today is likely to be a government defeat. I see no possible way May's deal goes through, which means that with no parliamentary majorities for no brexit or a referendum the likely outcome is now no deal.


The markets usually have the best idea of what's going on - if they think it's a fucking mess, chances are it's a fucking mess. 3% off the £ in a few hours.
Is no deal likely to have a majority?
 

Makariel

Gold Member
Jan 14, 2018
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#62
Relevant:


The UK is not happy with any of the other ways the EU deals with countries that have some relationship to her, so it seems to me no-deal is the only way this is going.
 
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May 30, 2013
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#63
Is no deal likely to have a majority?
Not by a long way, however the Tory MPs have already shown that they will vote against May's deal and then immediately fall in line to party whips and "vote for the party" on the very next vote.

Complete cluster fuck, but then it was always going to be.
 
May 4, 2005
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#64
Not by a long way, however the Tory MPs have already shown that they will vote against May's deal and then immediately fall in line to party whips and "vote for the party" on the very next vote.

Complete cluster fuck, but then it was always going to be.
In that case I assume postponing is the most likely outcome, if no solution finds a majority? I cannot understand, if the parties are unable to find any solution at all, why they don't just make a second referendum to break the tie. Currently they have three positions, no brexit, this deal, or no deal - along all party lines (well and Corbyn's a completely different deal, but the time for that has long passed, obviously). What's the issue in asking the people which of the three things it should be? Of course, the parliament is who decides on it in the end, but if they are unable to find any consensus, how do they think this is going to work out?
 
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Aug 22, 2018
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#66
In that case I assume postponing is the most likely outcome, if no solution finds a majority? I cannot understand, if the parties are unable to find any solution at all, why they don't just make a second referendum to break the tie. Currently they have three positions, no brexit, this deal, or no deal - along all party lines (well and Corbyn's a completely different deal, but the time for that has long passed, obviously). What's the issue in asking the people which of the three things it should be? Of course, the parliament is who decides on it in the end, but if they are unable to find any consensus, how do they think this is going to work out?
Apologies for double-post.. so postponement would require the agreement of the EU, but that depends on them believing that anything would change in terms of parliament accepting a deal. Realistically the current configuration of parliament cannot get any deal through.

The only possibilities I see presently for any deal being accepted is through parliament being reconfigured by a general election (though frankly I don't think that would change the make-up sufficiently to make a difference) or through a referendum with the choice between no brexit, no deal, deal as a two-part question. The referendum won't happen, and the election requires that turkeys vote for Christmas, so no deal remains very much on the table.
 
Likes: Kadayi
Aug 22, 2018
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#68
Waiting with baited breath. I hope for a good outcome for British citizens and for their country.

The peaceful and self-sufficient and progressive EU will get along just fine without the UK.
To be honest, a little bit of me is thinking no deal is the best option. Any deal on the table seems to involve being permanently tied to the EU which is frankly a failing institution that would take us down with it. The Northern Ireland thing is obviously tricky, as it would re-partition Ireland, but talk of it re-igniting the troubles seems premature, if for no other reason than most of the protagonists of those days being past their prime and years of business co-operation etc breaking down walls there. The border adds a bit of bureaucracy to trade and movement but many people live on the borders of countries and get shit done, I don't doubt the Irish will do the same (I say this as someone who has lived outside the EU and seen that first-hand).
 
Likes: Kadayi
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#69
Apologies for double-post.. so postponement would require the agreement of the EU, but that depends on them believing that anything would change in terms of parliament accepting a deal. Realistically the current configuration of parliament cannot get any deal through.

The only possibilities I see presently for any deal being accepted is through parliament being reconfigured by a general election (though frankly I don't think that would change the make-up sufficiently to make a difference) or through a referendum with the choice between no brexit, no deal, deal as a two-part question. The referendum won't happen, and the election requires that turkeys vote for Christmas, so no deal remains very much on the table.
But don't you agree that considering what you just wrote, a two-part question referndum is the only rational choice? I have faith in the British politicians, that ultimately, what is the only rational choice will prevail. A second referendum would guarantee a prolongation from EU side anyway.
 
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Apr 18, 2018
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#70
To be honest, a little bit of me is thinking no deal is the best option. Any deal on the table seems to involve being permanently tied to the EU which is frankly a failing institution that would take us down with it. The Northern Ireland thing is obviously tricky, as it would re-partition Ireland, but talk of it re-igniting the troubles seems premature, if for no other reason than most of the protagonists of those days being past their prime and years of business co-operation etc breaking down walls there. The border adds a bit of bureaucracy to trade and movement but many people live on the borders of countries and get shit done, I don't doubt the Irish will do the same (I say this as someone who has lived outside the EU and seen that first-hand).
The EU will break apart eventually, but it isn't a foregone conclusion that the best time to get out is now. I can accept that perhaps getting out of the EU is in the UK's best interests, but the problems raised by getting out now may end up causing more issues than it fixes.

All that said, I consider the EU to be a failed pact, and the evidence is in the condition of its member-states. Some are still clipping along nicely, but many of them have collapsed in the past 20 years. Where was the assistance from their neighbors to prevent this from happening? The USA had similar issues in the 1800s which eventually led to a civil war.
 
Aug 22, 2018
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#71
But don't you agree that considering what you just wrote, a two-part question referndum is the only rational choice? I have faith in the British politicians, that ultimately, what is the only rational choice will prevail. A second referendum would guarantee a prolongation from EU side anyway.
It's what I would choose, but rationality doesn't come into this sadly, politics is in such a state that nobody can suggest a referendum without being accused of betraying Brexit (whatever that means).
 
May 4, 2005
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#73
It's what I would choose, but rationality doesn't come into this sadly, politics is in such a state that nobody can suggest a referendum without being accused of betraying Brexit (whatever that means).
I see no betrayal in this one way or the other. People voted for a very unspecific Brexit. Now they know all the alternatives and the associated risks. Even in the case that "remain" wins, the original referendum was not ignored. The politicians made a big effort in working out what it exactly means. If the voters were now to say remain, then of course that might be frustrating for some who said "brexit" back then and say "brexit" now, but this is not a case of ignoring the earlier referendum and just repeating it until the result is satisfactory.
 

AV

Gold Member
May 31, 2018
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#74
  • AV

    AV

But don't you agree that considering what you just wrote, a two-part question referndum is the only rational choice? I have faith in the British politicians, that ultimately, what is the only rational choice will prevail. A second referendum would guarantee a prolongation from EU side anyway.
Brexiteers will riot because they're well aware that a 2nd referendum would more than likely point to cancelling Brexit at this point, and their multi-billion pound trainwreck will have been for nought. That or they'll think it's some "affront to democracy" even though it was only ever a litmus test in the first place.
 
Likes: Bleys
Aug 22, 2018
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#75
The EU will break apart eventually, but it isn't a foregone conclusion that the best time to get out is now. I can accept that perhaps getting out of the EU is in the UK's best interests, but the problems raised by getting out now may end up causing more issues than it fixes.

All that said, I consider the EU to be a failed pact, and the evidence is in the condition of its member-states. Some are still clipping along nicely, but many of them have collapsed in the past 20 years. Where was the assistance from their neighbors to prevent this from happening? The USA had similar issues in the 1800s which eventually led to a civil war.
Now may or may not be the best time, but if it's not done now then quite simply it won't be done. There won't be the will to go through all this ballache again. I would of course note that if it requires this much ballache then it was clearly too closely integrated.

I would say that the Southern states have been treated worst by the EU, sacrificed for the German economy, but there are other issues too. The Eastern latecomers don't value democracy or law and order, and have created problems in the richer nations with large diaspora pushing wages down for the poorest in those countries. Had the EU been more sensible about its pace of expansion it might have worked, but that isn't what happened. Part of that is intertia - an organisation like the EU gets so big that it just has to keep growing as everyone wants to expand their piece of the empire. Any organisation will of course seek to expand but the EU has been particularly bad in that respect.
 
Likes: Kadayi
Aug 22, 2018
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#77
I see no betrayal in this one way or the other. People voted for a very unspecific Brexit. Now they know all the alternatives and the associated risks. Even in the case that "remain" wins, the original referendum was not ignored. The politicians made a big effort in working out what it exactly means. If the voters were now to say remain, then of course that might be frustrating for some who said "brexit" back then and say "brexit" now, but this is not a case of ignoring the earlier referendum and just repeating it until the result is satisfactory.
I know that, you know that, the politicians don't, and the rabid press along with the extremist elements of the Tory party would go absolutely apeshit.
 
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Makariel

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Jan 14, 2018
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#78
Had the EU been more sensible about its pace of expansion it might have worked, but that isn't what happened.
Wasn't the UK (read: UK politicians at the time) one of the cheerleaders for the rapid Eastern expansion or does my memory betray me?

I’d appreciate a trigger warning if you’re going to post pics of that silly slag. I nearly fell off the treadmill.
 
Aug 22, 2018
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#79
Wasn't the UK (read: UK politicians at the time) one of the cheerleaders for the rapid Eastern expansion or does my memory betray me?
Not sure tbh - it may well be that the government pushed for it to give their mates in business access to cheap labour. Honestly though I don't really recall, I suspect I wasn't paying attention at the time!
 
May 4, 2005
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#80
I know that, you know that, the politicians don't, and the rabid press along with the extremist elements of the Tory party would go absolutely apeshit.
If someone on the remain side (though not a Briton, but I would argue that a remain should also lead to a discussion within the EU about the issues that lead to the wish to separate in the first place and maybe a hope for improving demcratic processes in the EU) and someone on the hard Brexit side can agree on that point.
The EU will break apart eventually, but it isn't a foregone conclusion that the best time to get out is now. I can accept that perhaps getting out of the EU is in the UK's best interests, but the problems raised by getting out now may end up causing more issues than it fixes.

All that said, I consider the EU to be a failed pact, and the evidence is in the condition of its member-states. Some are still clipping along nicely, but many of them have collapsed in the past 20 years. Where was the assistance from their neighbors to prevent this from happening? The USA had similar issues in the 1800s which eventually led to a civil war.
Hard to say the EU will never break apart (nations and unions of nations have changed historically all the time), but the EU is not nearly as instable as you paint it here and the Brexit also showed that it is a very complicated structure to set yourself loose from. Movements like Diem25 could lead to a democratic improvement of the EU which could very well strengthen the EU in the long run.
 
Likes: Bleys
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#81
Hard to say the EU will never break apart (nations and unions of nations have changed historically all the time), but the EU is not nearly as instable as you paint it here and the Brexit also showed that it is a very complicated structure to set yourself loose from. Movements like Diem25 could lead to a democratic improvement of the EU which could very well strengthen the EU in the long run.
I am not painting it in a particularly worse light than many others have already done. After a quick reckoning in my head, I am thinking of issues in Hungary, Poland, and Sweden as it pertains to open immigration. I am thinking of the destabilization of Spain, Italy, and Greece. Brexit is not all that central to the overall mental landscape I have in my head concerning the breakup of the EU.

Soros already warned about the EU's collapse last year in May, inserting a jab against Trump in there. Forbes and Guardian (Soros again) have talked about the possibility as well. Granted, there are financial parties that would benefit from EU breaking up, and a juicy headline sells more papers. It would take a lot more for the EU to break up, but these are not static events bubbling up from nowhere. There are shifting trends in Europe as a whole that will cause more destabilization. What are the trends for greater unity between countries, closer cooperation, improved financial situation for the member states, and so forth? These issues sound like they need a EuroTrump to step in and promise the member-states "Make Europe Great Again".

I hope the citizens can get through this safely, but I don't see indications of an upward trend or improvements. I only see further degradation and problems.

That said, I am an outsider from across the ocean. If there are indications that the EU is healthy and thriving and moving in a positive direction, I would be happy to read those stories as well.

Now may or may not be the best time, but if it's not done now then quite simply it won't be done. There won't be the will to go through all this ballache again. I would of course note that if it requires this much ballache then it was clearly too closely integrated.

I would say that the Southern states have been treated worst by the EU, sacrificed for the German economy, but there are other issues too. The Eastern latecomers don't value democracy or law and order, and have created problems in the richer nations with large diaspora pushing wages down for the poorest in those countries. Had the EU been more sensible about its pace of expansion it might have worked, but that isn't what happened. Part of that is intertia - an organisation like the EU gets so big that it just has to keep growing as everyone wants to expand their piece of the empire. Any organisation will of course seek to expand but the EU has been particularly bad in that respect.
I'm not trying to dismiss your worries, but let me ask a simple question:

If the EU is causing such issues for the UK, why is it urgent that Brexit (whether its deal or no deal) is done now? A follow-up referedum (or whatever) could reaffirm that the UK citizens want to leave the EU and settle the matter. Alternatively, they could vote "remain" and for now the issue would be laid to rest.

But since that doesn't fix the underlying issues which led to Brexit in the first place, wouldn't the population push for it later -- let's say 5 years from now -- as things worsen? And in what way do they expect things to worsen?

I'm happy to be pointed to a website that explains this, by the way. The urgency is what is lost on me. When some say "well if we did a re-vote then most people would remain" I don't consider that a valid reason for the urgency. It tells me something else is going on here in the background.
 
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Aug 22, 2018
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#82
I'm not trying to dismiss your worries, but let me ask a simple question:

If the EU is causing such issues for the UK, why is it urgent that Brexit (whether its deal or no deal) is done now? A follow-up referedum (or whatever) could reaffirm that the UK citizens want to leave the EU and settle the matter. Alternatively, they could vote "remain" and for now the issue would be laid to rest.

But since that doesn't fix the underlying issues which led to Brexit in the first place, wouldn't the population push for it later -- let's say 5 years from now -- as things worsen? And in what way do they expect things to worsen?

I'm happy to be pointed to a website that explains this, by the way. The urgency is what is lost on me. When some say "well if we did a re-vote then most people would remain" I don't consider that a valid reason for the urgency. It tells me something else is going on here in the background.
No worries - I wouldn't expect you to dismiss stuff - you're an honest debater in my experience.

For me personally I don't have a problem with a 2nd vote. I stated above that I think it's probably the best option right now, I think with us now having a somewhat clearer picture of the nature of brexit a 2-question referendum is needed. The Irish situation for instance was never discussed during the referendum - now people are aware of it and can vote accordingly. If the public wishes to cancel Brexit and return to the EU (which is something we can do - the UK can legally cancel Article 50 as stated by the EU themselves) then that's fine and things continue much as they have.

In terms of a later push - the public can want something but for it to actually happen requires particularly unusual political framing. The referendum only happened because the Tories were afraid of UKIP eating their votes. UKIP is now pretty much dead, a lunatic fringe, with the Tories having largely absorbed what was previous UKIP policy. My gut tells me that no Tory PM would go there again, for fear of re-opening the wounds (bear in mind the Tory party is in more or less open warfare over the EU right now - something that's been bubbling under the surface since the Thatcher days). I think much of the leave-voting public feels that if Brexit doesn't happen now, the political establishment won't let it happen again (bear in mind most MPs are pro-remain, most broadcast media is pro-remain - in some ways it's a similar situation in the UK to how the US media is with Trump where everyone in the media is from backgrounds that make them inherently anti-Trump).

Apologies for a bit of a ramble.. at work and having an.. interesting.. day.
 
Jun 20, 2018
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#84
My hot take is that they will hash out a deal "last minute" which everyone involved already knows about for some time, is basically a brexit that isnt a brexit in which everything is still EU controlled and it will be sold as big last minute breakthrough, deal to end all deals, the media will sell it as big success to the population and the EU will play the "defeated"/"though deal" party so everyone feels good and happy at the end.
The entire last two years was basically just delay and trip torture via media selling brexit frustration and fatigue trying to break any resistance when it ends up being a "bullshit deal".
I cant imagine a no deal scenario because it fucks the UK but especially because it fucks the EU even harder.
And honestly as center right gets more power in the EU maybe reform is possible and its actual not a bad idea to remain imo so i am now basically ok with both possibilities brexit or no brexit.
 
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Mar 12, 2014
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#85
I do not believe Brexit will happen because the will of voters is trumped by the will of whoever controls the media. This looks like nothing more than a soap opera designed to look like they really tried while never getting it done. Time will tell.
 
Dec 18, 2018
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#86
As long as Teresa May is in office, she will never, ever let you leave. This is deliberate failure theater to make a show of trying. After a few more years they will just stop trying and hope you all forget about it.
 

Makariel

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Jan 14, 2018
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#87
Didn't Theresa May say she will leave office as soon as the Brexit is complete?

In that case, this is the prime minister of the United Kingdom in the 40th millenium:

 
Likes: hariseldon
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#89
My hot take is that they will hash out a deal "last minute" which everyone involved already knows about for some time, is basically a brexit that isnt a brexit in which everything is still EU controlled and it will be sold as big last minute breakthrough, deal to end all deals, the media will sell it as big success to the population and the EU will play the "defeated"/"though deal" party so everyone feels good and happy at the end.
The entire last two years was basically just delay and trip torture via media selling brexit frustration and fatigue trying to break any resistance when it ends up being a "bullshit deal".
I cant imagine a no deal scenario because it fucks the UK but especially because it fucks the EU even harder.
And honestly as center right gets more power in the EU maybe reform is possible and its actual not a bad idea to remain imo so i am now basically ok with both possibilities brexit or no brexit.
I think you are right , might I add that
I also think the U.K. did some ruse to help the anti Eu sentiment in Europe to die. We playing the long con
 
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Makariel

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#90
You will survive a hard Brexit and be far better for it in the long run.
I can survive a car crash, doesn't mean I seek them out. The question is not one of surviving. I'm certain the UK will survive, and I don't think that was the argument anyone above made. The question is if Brexit at this time (under no-deal conditions, while the UK has managed to negotiate what, 6 different trade deals? Or did we get a 7th by now? At least we can continue to trade with the Faroe Islands, phew, I was starting to get worried) is to the benefit of the country. It appears to me that a growing number of EU countries are better prepared for the no-deal Brexit than the UK itself (even the French!). Is getting out no matter the cost really the best move? The UK government triggered article 50 before they had any plan of how to proceed, before the conservatives even agreed amongst themselves on what Brexit is actually supposed to mean.
 
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Sep 12, 2017
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#91
I voted 'yes' for Scottish independence and 'yes' for Brexit. Now the SNP are fully on the EU train. I don't know who to vote for now.
I left Scotland before the independence movement kicked off, and I'm completely baffled - first of all by how outrageously nationalist a lot of people I know have become, but also by the same people voting to remain in Europe. "I don't want London telling me what to do: that's Brussels' job!"

Yours seems to be the only consistent position.
 
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Such a complete mess and it's all down to May, she's never been clear with her ambition, so when the deal came around it antagonised everyone. She has singularly failed in her key role as leader, she has neither united nor driven to a consensus in her own party.

We now have the prospect of the government approaching the leaving of the EU with too little preparation because she's been trying the duplicitous tactic of trying to appear to leave the EU while retaining all its structures.

She needs to go, we're in to extension territory now, that's a democratic disaster.
 
Dec 18, 2018
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#96
She has singularly failed in her key role as leader
.

No, she has succeeded brilliantly. She has kept Britain in the EU, which was her goal. Eventually she will throw up her hands and call for another referendum...and again and again if necessary, until you "get it right" and vote to remain in the EU. Then no more voting.
 
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#98
Here is what I don't get as an outsider. The biggest brexit Torries all bowed out of the PM job, leaving a remainer to actually lead the negotiations.

How can you blame May for negotiating a weak deal when she obviously doesn't even believe that EU separation is good for the country.
 
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#99
. The question is if Brexit at this time (under no-deal conditions, while the UK has managed to negotiate what, 6 different trade deals? Or did we get a 7th by now? At least we can continue to trade with the Faroe Islands, phew, I was starting to get worried) is to the benefit of the country.
And I'd argue independence from the EU is important enough that even if a hard Brexit is a car crash, as you infer, it would be worth it.

That is, remaining in the EU is polar opposite to being a 'benefit to the country' pretty much by definition, especially with negotiations as they stand, as it upturns sovereign rule. The people voted to leave. Leave, it is. Anything else and the will of the country is subjugated to non-Brits who clearly don't hold the interests of the UK first,again, by definition.

Tens of thousands died to detangle the US from Britain, and some were too busy doing cost/benefit analysis to take a firm side. Hard Brexit is a chance to reclaim sovereignty. Imho, take it. Or bend the knee.

How can you blame May for negotiating a weak deal when she obviously doesn't even believe that EU separation is good for the country.
A leader who, rather than representing the will of their people to the best of their ability, instead actively operates against said will and in their own interests [and in the interests of foreign powers], is not a leader but a traitor.
 
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