Brexit

dionysus

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Who has ever brought up the "starve to death" argument?
UK's agriculture covers 60% of UK needs, mind you, entire world can take off and fly to Mars, UK still won't starve to death.
Sorry, I misread DrAspirino's comment in this thread, he just said foot shortages, not actual starvation.

About a year ago May was stating that "hard brexit" was very likely, asking business to prepare etc etc, in an obvious attempt to put pressure on EU negotiators (who are rather skilled motherfuckers, next ho whom Game Theory proff from Greece looks like a kid, remember grexit?)

But if "customs sovereignty" means damaging UK economy, which majority of economists predict it would, what would you expect your Prime Minister to do? Focus on "but EU will be harmed too" and enjoy the consequences?

Besides that, UK parliament is a rather peculiar place, with actual number of independently acting parties being much higher than officially registered.
I expect her to negotiate for the optimal but prepare for the worst. Instead it appears that parliament is behaving like a spoiled child that just votes against reality, and the May and the government have no real plans for the worst.

Both DB (which is bigger than Barclays) and Commerzbank (which is 3 times smaller, but still a monster) are too big for any government to just let hem crash. But I don't get what they have to do with brexit.
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Simply pointing out that the EU has a lot of skin in this game. All the negative isn't just for the UK. I brought up DB for exactly what you just said, they are teetering on the verge of needing another government bailout in the hundreds of billions.
 
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llien

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Feb 1, 2017
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I expect her to negotiate for the optimal but prepare for the worst. Instead it appears that parliament is behaving like a spoiled child that just votes against reality, and the May and the government have no real plans for the worst.
There are two points her,e I think, one is that parliament is actually against hard brexit (the only vote on the subject that got approved).
Second, and even more important, EU isn't prepared either, even if UK would decide to have no customs, EU would still have it on their side, May couldn't have prepared for that.

Simply pointing out that the EU has a lot of skin in this game. All the negative isn't just for the UK. I brought up DB for exactly what you just said, they are teetering on the verge of needing another government bailout in the hundreds of billions.
They are not too profitable, but still in black, to my knowledge. I don't see how DB/Commerzbank could have any impact on the negotiations though, even if they'd need hundreds of billions bailout (they don't).

EU negotiators openly claim that both EU and UK would suffer from hard brexit and UK doesn't lack skilled negotiators either. I think they got to what objectively was achievable. The deal is failing in UK parliament mainly because there is no majority for anything, which frankly is UK's problem, EU is not to blame here. I mean, what could they realistically propose and haven't already?
 

1.21Gigawatts

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if your argument rests on completely misportraying the desires and opinions of your opposition, then you are being disingenuous. Plenty of people, if not all, knew full well leaving would have costs, but valued their national sovereignty more.
Where are these people then? They had two years to take on responsibility and come up with a plan and did nothing.
Also, nobody ever told people that their "national sovereignty" would come at the cost of their standard of living, their freedom and their future prospects.
Instead, Brexiteers lied about the consequences of Brexit and acted like leaving the market thats most important for your economy wouldn't be a massive problem for that economy.
 

NickFire

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Where are these people then? They had two years to take on responsibility and come up with a plan and did nothing.
Also, nobody ever told people that their "national sovereignty" would come at the cost of their standard of living, their freedom and their future prospects.
Instead, Brexiteers lied about the consequences of Brexit and acted like leaving the market thats most important for your economy wouldn't be a massive problem for that economy.
All this talk about people voting because of lies, all of which is based on one group's speculation. Perhaps if certain political outlooks started listening more, as opposed to dictating and demonizing, there might be less "nationalism" spreading throughout the West.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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All this talk about people voting because of lies, all of which is based on one group's speculation. Perhaps if certain political outlooks started listening more, as opposed to dictating and demonizing, there might be less "nationalism" spreading throughout the West.
You think the people who voted for Brexit were well informed?
If thats the case, why is that 2 years after the vote there is still no one with a plan? If Brexiteers were so well informed I would expect them to have some kind of plan.

But one of the mains reasons why I say that this vote was based on lies that the people who voted for Brexit thought they would get to keep all of the EUs benefits, like free access to the single market, while at the same time getting rid of all the responsibilities, like granting the four freedoms.

How many times have Brexiteers talked about making a deal like Switzerland or Norway, while completely ignoring the fact that these countries have to grant the four freedoms and have to abide by any all EU regulation while not even getting a say in it.
Is that the "sovereignty" Brits want?


Sorry, but claiming that Brexiteer are well informed is just too ridiculous when we are sitting here, 2 years after the referendum, and Brexiteers still don't even know what Brexit is supposed to look like.

So, can you tell me what Brexit should look like?
 

xandaca

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If Brexiteers were so well informed I would expect them to have some kind of plan.
Outside Parliament, most English Brexiteers want No Deal. According to a recent YouGov survey, London is the only region of England that wouldn't prefer No Deal to remaining. My family, living in the country, are fairly ardent Brexiteers, and they and all their friends just want to get out as soon as possible. I'm not advocating for this (I think no deal would be a terrible outcome) just pointing out that the idea that Brexit voters, for the most part, don't know what they want is untrue - it's just that Parliament is far more pro-Europe and thus divided over the best way to satisfy the various groups among them.
 
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NickFire

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You think the people who voted for Brexit were well informed?
If thats the case, why is that 2 years after the vote there is still no one with a plan? If Brexiteers were so well informed I would expect them to have some kind of plan.

But one of the mains reasons why I say that this vote was based on lies that the people who voted for Brexit thought they would get to keep all of the EUs benefits, like free access to the single market, while at the same time getting rid of all the responsibilities, like granting the four freedoms.

How many times have Brexiteers talked about making a deal like Switzerland or Norway, while completely ignoring the fact that these countries have to grant the four freedoms and have to abide by any all EU regulation while not even getting a say in it.
Is that the "sovereignty" Brits want?


Sorry, but claiming that Brexiteer are well informed is just too ridiculous when we are sitting here, 2 years after the referendum, and Brexiteers still don't even know what Brexit is supposed to look like.

So, can you tell me what Brexit should look like?
All I read are excuses for why the will of the people should be ignored by someone who says they know better than everyone else. Perhaps getting away from people who tell them they are dumb for voting a certain way is what they voted for. Perhaps they just want to leave the EU like they voted for. Regarding why there is no "plan" (other than just leaving), here's a newsflash --> A woman who was against Brexit was given the reigns of negotiating the terms of Brexit, and Parliament has sent clear signals to the EU that they have no reason to negotiate because Parliament keeps rejecting the simple route of just leaving. Criticizing the voters for this mess is absurd. It is entirely the fault of the "elites" who know better and never did anything to actually carry out the will of the people.

If the "elites" could not carry out the people's decision, then the elites should have resigned. You don't accept responsibility for creating a plan, and then blame the voters for not creating the plan in the first place. Either do the job you were assigned, or resign. Blaming the voters for not doing the job you accepted is bush league.
 
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1.21Gigawatts

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All I read are excuses for why the will of the people should be ignored by someone who says they know better than everyone else.
Well, I've always been arguing against direct democracy, simply because most topic are too complex to just let the general public decide.
I also support general 2/3rd majorities for major changes to the political system, the constitution or other things drastically changing the ideological direction a country is heading towards.

And lastly, I would like to ignore the will of 52% of voters, you would like to ignore the will of 48% of voters.
If we talk about general population I am fairly sure that pretty much every poll ever since the referendum has shown that a majority is against Brexit.
So don't give me that bullshit line about "the will of the people".

Perhaps getting away from people who tell them they are dumb for voting a certain way is what they voted for.
They can ignore experts, but they can't ignore reality.



Perhaps they just want to leave the EU like they voted for. Regarding why there is no "plan" (other than just leaving), here's a newsflash --> A woman who was against Brexit was given the reigns of negotiating the terms of Brexit, and Parliament has sent clear signals to the EU that they have no reason to negotiate because Parliament keeps rejecting the simple route of just leaving. Criticizing the voters for this mess is absurd. It is entirely the fault of the "elites" who know better and never did anything to actually carry out the will of the people.
Just leaving would have disastrous consequences for the UK and the politicians responsible for this decision would go down in infamy in the countries history.
They have been trying for 2 years now to make the best out of Brexit. It turns out that there is no to make anything even remotely positive out of it. All possible options would just be objectively massively worse than the status quo.
So at some point it is time to just admit that it was a dumb idea and stop this madness.



Outside Parliament, most English Brexiteers want No Deal. According to a recent YouGov survey, London is the only region of England that wouldn't prefer No Deal to remaining. My family, living in the country, are also fairly ardent Brexiteers, and they and all their friends also just want to get out as soon as possible. I'm not advocating for this (I think no deal would be a terrible outcome) just pointing out that the idea that Brexit voters, for the most part, don't know what they want is untrue - it's just that Parliament is far more pro-Europe and thus divided over the best way to satisfy the various groups among them.
And what do they think will happen with no deal?
See, the point why I said the were lied to is because the negative consequences of no deal are so massive that just no rational human being would prefer that over... anything else.

Why would you deliberately jump into a massive recession, limit your own freedom and future prospects severely and throw away any and all international influence you had, all that in favor of some ominous concept of "national sovereignty".
There really are now words to describe how dumb this would be.
 

NickFire

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And lastly, I would like to ignore the will of 52% of voters, you would like to ignore the will of 48% of voters. If we talk about general population I am fairly sure that pretty much every poll ever since the referendum has shown that a majority is against Brexit. So don't give me that bullshit line about "the will of the people".
Informal polls do not constitute proof that an actual nationwide vote failed to reflect the will of the people. For someone who knows better than everyone else, you should understand how easily polls can be manipulated or simply ineffective. I find it incredibly unnerving that in a first world country people will claim a vote failed because online polls said the outcome would something else. That's splitting hairs with saying the vote failed because I lost.

They have been trying for 2 years now to make the best out of Brexit.
I own this bridge in London, and will sell it to you for $1000.00 USD. My claim is as credible as the above.
 

autoduelist

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Where are these people then? They had two years to take on responsibility and come up with a plan and did nothing.
Also, nobody ever told people that their "national sovereignty" would come at the cost of their standard of living, their freedom and their future prospects.
Instead, Brexiteers lied about the consequences of Brexit and acted like leaving the market thats most important for your economy wouldn't be a massive problem for that economy.
Where are these people? Everywhere! You simply don't listen to them., don't count them, marginalize them, and say they dont actually believe it and if they do it's just because brexiteers lied to them. Your position is as disingenuous as it gets.

They simply didn't come up with a plan that remainers like because remainers, by definition, do not like any plan that requires exiting. Even Hard brexit is a perfectly valid strategy. The only lies are coming from the remainers fear-mongering about the effects of leaving.

The vote was to leave. Certainly, people expected something more along hard brexit than they did May's deal. Your position that people expected a purely beneficial deal in order to vote for it is ridiculous, there's no way to leave a group without at least some advantages and disadvantages, so to point to the disadvantages and suggest nobody expected them is laughable. Sovereignty is worth the pain.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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Informal polls do not constitute proof that an actual nationwide vote failed to reflect the will of the people. For someone who knows better than everyone else, you should understand how easily polls can be manipulated or simply ineffective. I find it incredibly unnerving that in a first world country people will claim a vote failed because online polls said the outcome would something else. That's splitting hairs with saying the vote failed because I lost.
I'm not talking about online polls. I'm talking about proper polls with a representative polling base.


I own this bridge in London, and will sell it to you for $1000.00 USD. My claim is as credible as the above.
Is this the Brexiteers plan? First you vote for Brexit and don't listen to anyone who tells you that its a bad idea, and when it turns out that its a bad idea and not working out you blame everyone for not delivering what you voted for?
Nice way to absolve oneself of any and all responsibility.




Where are these people? Everywhere! You simply don't listen to them., don't count them, marginalize them, and say they dont actually believe it and if they do it's just because brexiteers lied to them. Your position is as disingenuous as it gets.
For the last 2 years there was simply nothing constructive from the Brexit camp.
When people voted for Brexit that also meant that they need to engage in a debate about what Brexit is going to look like. Someone needs to have an idea!


They simply didn't come up with a plan that remainers like because remainers, by definition, do not like any plan that requires exiting.
I would say Remainers do not like any plan that would lead to worse results than the status quo.
So far every proposed Brexit plans would have been terrible for the UK.

Even Hard brexit is a perfectly valid strategy.
If your goal is to significantly lower the living standards of Brits, significantly living the freedom of Brits and significantly decrease future prospects for Brits - then yes.

The only lies are coming from the remainers fear-mongering about the effects of leaving.
It's not lies and fear mongering. Its just experts telling you that your wet nationalist dream is a bad idea that will not work out in any positive way at all.


The vote was to leave. Certainly, people expected something more along hard brexit than they did May's deal.
At this point I actually wish for a hard Brexit, too.
Only so that people realize how big of a mistake this was. Maybe this will shut the idiots up and in a few years the UK can rejoin the EU with some newfound humility and sense.
Then again, this would mean severely hurting millions upon millions of people who voted to stay and aren't at fault at all.

Your position that people expected a purely beneficial deal in order to vote for it is ridiculous, there's no way to leave a group without at least some advantages and disadvantages, so to point to the disadvantages and suggest nobody expected them is laughable. Sovereignty is worth the pain.
Its not "some advantages and disadvantages".
Its: Ruining your economy, limiting your freedom, losing your international influence, significantly lowering your average standard of living and doing all of that for good, its not like this will be over after a couple of years of hard times. The UK will not recover to the point where it is at right now.

And the advantages would be, idk, a couple hundred people not having to travel to Brussels on a regular basis anymore?
Like you won't even get avoid EU regulations since the EU is your main market and if you want to do business here you'll need to abide by these regulations anyway, wether you are a member or not.


But what exactly is the "sovereignty" you are always talking about? What is it and what do you think you'll gain from it?
 

NickFire

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I'm not talking about online polls. I'm talking about proper polls with a representative polling base.
You mean the same polls that told you what you wanted to hear, and also ended up failing to capture the majority opinion of the actual voters? No, those polls do not overturn the actual vote.

Is this the Brexiteers plan? First you vote for Brexit and don't listen to anyone who tells you that its a bad idea, and when it turns out that its a bad idea and not working out you blame everyone for not delivering what you voted for?
Nice way to absolve oneself of any and all responsibility.
No one is blaming everyone else. They are blaming the people who said even though I am against this, I will work on it as your representative. And who then turned to the EU and said we won't leave without a deal we like, so please give us a deal we like or we're not leaving.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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You mean the same polls that told you what you wanted to hear, and also ended up failing to capture the majority opinion of the actual voters? No, those polls do not overturn the actual vote.

The Brexit polls were rather accurate.

No one is blaming everyone else. They are blaming the people who said even though I am against this, I will work on it as your representative. And who then turned to the EU and said we won't leave without a deal we like, so please give us a deal we like or we're not leaving.
Fair point. I'm not going to defend Tories and Labor here. Their display of incompetence was a sight to behold.
 

llien

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Outside Parliament, most English Brexiteers want No Deal. According to a recent YouGov survey, London is the only region of England that wouldn't prefer No Deal to remaining.
I think I've read the misleading article you're coming from. Note the following:

37% "Britain having a new referendum and voting to remain in the EU"
26% "Britain leaving the European Union without any deal"
12% "Britain leaving the European Union with an alternative deal that included remaining in the single market and customs union"
11% "Britain accepting the negotiated deal and leaving the European Union on those terms"

Only 1 in 4 wants hard Brexit, while 1 in 3 wants second referendum. YouGov


Looks like May at it again!
There is no way she gets it, how the heck should that work, it means participating in EU elections.
 
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I think I've read the misleading article you're coming from. Note the following:

37% "Britain having a new referendum and voting to remain in the EU"
26% "Britain leaving the European Union without any deal"
12% "Britain leaving the European Union with an alternative deal that included remaining in the single market and customs union"
11% "Britain accepting the negotiated deal and leaving the European Union on those terms"

Only 1 in 4 wants hard Brexit, while 1 in 3 wants second referendum. YouGov



There is no way she gets it, how the heck should that work, it means participating in EU elections.
The EU summit, someone will very likely say no to an extension. That's all it takes.
 

xandaca

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I think I've read the misleading article you're coming from. Note the following:

37% "Britain having a new referendum and voting to remain in the EU"
26% "Britain leaving the European Union without any deal"
12% "Britain leaving the European Union with an alternative deal that included remaining in the single market and customs union"
11% "Britain accepting the negotiated deal and leaving the European Union on those terms"

Only 1 in 4 wants hard Brexit, while 1 in 3 wants second referendum. YouGov



There is no way she gets it, how the heck should that work, it means participating in EU elections.
My previous post was referring to this article if it's the one you're thinking of: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-reveals-all-of-england-and-wales-now-favour-no-deal-except-london-a4108916.html

It's true that I should have presented the findings, as described, with a little more nuance: every region of England bar London prefers leaving with no deal if no agreement with the EU is reached by the end of the current extension. The omitted part somewhat flattened out in my mind, but is a more important qualifier in retrospect. If we are talking about the same polling, many of the people who prefer no deal to remain under those circumstances might simply regard it as the better of two negative outcomes.
 

Jmarshall

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The EU will reject May's timetable and offer their own 1 to 2 years, knowing that Parliament will never reject this as they've already demonstrated they will not leave without a "deal"

Welcome to the neverendum.
 

Madonis

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I feel terrible about UK people impacted by it, but this whole thing is almost a comedy of errors by now.
 

adj83

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Like you won't even get avoid EU regulations since the EU is your main market and if you want to do business here you'll need to abide by these regulations anyway, wether you are a member or not.
The EU is the main market now. It doesn't absolutely have to be in the future.

Regardless, why would the entire UK need to abide by EU regulations? Is Mexico bound by EU regulations or can they import/export things from/to other countries, even if those things do not comply with EU regulations? How can Mexico have trade agreements with both the US and the EU even though the US and the EU have different regulations?

Also, how would Brexit limit freedom? Do you mean freedom to live/work in the EU or the overall freedom because of restrictive laws?
 

Bogey

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Regardless, why would the entire UK need to abide by EU regulations? Is Mexico bound by EU regulations or can they import/export things from/to other countries, even if those things do not comply with EU regulations? How can Mexico have trade agreements with both the US and the EU even though the US and the EU have different regulations?
Well, would you like the UK to be on par with Mexico's economic... prosperity in the future?
 
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adj83

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Well, would you like the UK to be on par with Mexico's economic... prosperity in the future?
I will be happy to answer your question after you have answered the questions I asked about if the UK will be completely tied to EU regulations.
 

Bogey

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I will be happy to answer your question after you have answered the questions I asked about if the UK will be completely tied to EU regulations.
That depends on whatever kind of trade deal they'd like to pursue now, doesn't it?
There has always been a wide array of options available, some of which include a tight integration that leaves the UK as a rule taker, and others which come with a minimum of imposed regulations. The UK is free to try pursuing whichever they prefer.

Of course, if you opt to diverge significantly to the European rules, you won't be able to uphold open borders and unchecked flow of goods between the borders, which comes back to the Northern Ireland situation, so you'll have to accept a hard border. As does Mexico.
 

adj83

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That depends on whatever kind of trade deal they'd like to pursue now, doesn't it?
There has always been a wide array of options available, some of which include a tight integration that leaves the UK as a rule taker, and others which come with a minimum of imposed regulations. The UK is free to try pursuing whichever they prefer.

Of course, if you opt to diverge significantly to the European rules, you won't be able to uphold open borders and unchecked flow of goods between the borders, which comes back to the Northern Ireland situation, so you'll have to accept a hard border. As does Mexico.
Thanks.

No, I wouldn't want the UK to be on a par with Mexico's economic prosperity. I used Mexico as an example of a country which trades with the EU but isn't bound to EU regulations, not as an example of an economy I admire.
 

Yoshi

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At this point I actually wish for a hard Brexit, too.
Only so that people realize how big of a mistake this was. Maybe this will shut the idiots up and in a few years the UK can rejoin the EU with some newfound humility and sense.
Then again, this would mean severely hurting millions upon millions of people who voted to stay and aren't at fault at all.
I doubt this. If the UK leaves the EU, it will be for good. If hard Brexit works out as bad as the more pessimistic projections look, then they will work hard towards getting into more favourable positions with the EU, presumably with worse conditions than they could achieve right now and with an overall disadvantage when compared to the current standing in the EU, though. Re-entering the EU would very likely not come with all the special benefits for the UK they have right now. So besides losing influence on the EU overall this way (which could maybe still be ignored by the majority of people), this could mean e.g. having to introduce the Euro. This will not fly with UK people, I assume.

Though I also think not leaving the EU in the first place would be best for UK.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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I doubt this. If the UK leaves the EU, it will be for good.
See, this is the most unlikely scenario I see.
The UK is already facing many problems it simply can't tackle on its own, and in the future it will only get more.
UK economy, international influence and prosperity just depend on the EU. Outside of the EU the UK will no be able to retain their economy status quo, their international influence and their standard of living will go down.

These are abstract things to imagine for people, so I kinda understand why people don't believe it when they are told, but this will change once they realize how fucked they actually are outside the EU.

If there is just a spark of rationality in the UK, they will eventually rejoin the EU.

If hard Brexit works out as bad as the more pessimistic projections look, then they will work hard towards getting into more favourable positions with the EU, presumably with worse conditions than they could achieve right now and with an overall disadvantage when compared to the current standing in the EU, though. Re-entering the EU would very likely not come with all the special benefits for the UK they have right now. So besides losing influence on the EU overall this way (which could maybe still be ignored by the majority of people), this could mean e.g. having to introduce the Euro. This will not fly with UK people, I assume.
It won't fly right now, but in a few years the situation will be drastically different for the UK in the case of a hard Brexit.

Though I also think not leaving the EU in the first place would be best for UK.
This is probably the dilemma many politicians in the UK are facing. They already categorically ruled out the best option they had.
 

Yoshi

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See, this is the most unlikely scenario I see.
The UK is already facing many problems it simply can't tackle on its own, and in the future it will only get more.
UK economy, international influence and prosperity just depend on the EU. Outside of the EU the UK will no be able to retain their economy status quo, their international influence and their standard of living will go down.

These are abstract things to imagine for people, so I kinda understand why people don't believe it when they are told, but this will change once they realize how fucked they actually are outside the EU.

If there is just a spark of rationality in the UK, they will eventually rejoin the EU.
Even if the worst outcome for UK actually materialises - and I am not entirely convinced it will be as bad; it won't be pretty, but UK is a pretty strong country - the negative consequences would first need to be identified as caused by the Brexit and nationalist pride needs to be overcome before rejoining the EU can be an option. Considering they would have worse conditions than before, I really do not see a rejoin.
 

Vow

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Peter Oborne, an extremely distiguished conservative English journalist and Brexiteer and one of the few people who commands respect from across the political spectrum has published I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again

It's a very well balanced and honest article. I don't know whether I agree with it - it's a bit like stopping a complex operation just after the first incision. I constantly argued the toss with pro EU people about Brexit leading up to the referendum but in the end I held my nose and voted to remain because I felt the entire trajectory of the project was just too divisive. But on reflection I don't think leaving the EU could be any other way - pro-EU people are just as nationalistic as pro-Brexit people, except theirs is a supranational passion rather than a national one - or it's an inverted passion of dislike of the nation, understandable because of the modern pedagogy of national shame over national pride.

We're in a situation in which every single member of the EU has effectively got, from both pro- and anti-EU perspectives, a fifth column in each country. For the anti-EU, the fifth column are those who feel more loyalty to the EU project than to their own nation, and will happily cede powers from the national to the supranational level. In Britain these are the people who put #FBPE in their twitter profiles and go on protests wrapped in an EU flag. For the pro-EU, the fifth column are those who hold on to ideas about country and sovereignty, and are determined to return to a political economy in which those who make our laws live among their constituents and are answerable to them. These are the people who, as Oborne states, "are driven by one great solemn idea, namely that democracy can only exist and flourish within a nation state. For me this argument remains valid – and powerful." These positions are fundamentally incompatible.

Given this incompatibility, if I had to stake my position I'd have to come back down to being pro-Brexit. This is a decision that is based on principle, and you cannot modify principle, even when things are going badly - and they are going badly precisely because of the opposition to the decision, not because of the decision itself. What are my principles? I believe that small is beautiful, that power should be decentralised and reside close to where it is wielded, and that fractal localism, microgridding, food and direct environmental care by people stepping out of their front door and being able to work with others around them to shape the world as they see fit is the best future I can imagine. Of course, this all has to happen within a bigger political and economic framework, but I don't believe the EU can be that bigger framework. As Oborne puts it “the ever closer union brigade in Brussels do still need to be resisted" - but ever closer union is the raison d'etre of the EU, and this is antithetical to localism.

Short term slipping back into the comfort of the EU status quo would be a relief, but that decision would come at a high cost in other ways, and would likely lead to unrest that would undermine the short term relief. Cracking down on that unrest would split the country even further and perhaps even lead to sectarian violence. For those who feel more loyalty to the EU than the UK, they have the option of moving to any one of 27 EU countries if they really feel that strongly. If Brexit were stopped, there would be many who feel that the nation in its historical sense is ultimately lost, that the passion and the energy and the belief and the love that are the lifeblood of a nation have been forever drained from us, and from here on out something else will take over, something that they cannot belong to. It would be a grim irony if Britain, who at its imperial height faced numerous insurrections and rebellions from its colonies fighting for national independence, had as an insurrection within its own borders its own rebels, fighting for the very same principles of independence that was eventually granted to them.

As a last note, I've only recently become aware of this 1975 speech by Labour MP Peter Shore on the EU, and have to share it:

 
Nov 19, 2018
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The Brexit polls were rather accurate.


Fair point. I'm not going to defend Tories and Labor here. Their display of incompetence was a sight to behold.
Crikey that graph is a mess (I am red/green colour blind), it makes me want to throw up :D

Proud Brexiteer here too, though not here to argue to be honest. Brexit is lost, I concede that. Democracy in the UK has taken a terrible knock though, may never be the same again.
 
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NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
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Been saying this is nothing more than a long con designed to give false appearance that they tried to leave in my opinion. This certainly reinforces that belief.
 

1.21Gigawatts

can't help talking about pedophiles
Nov 24, 2012
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munich
Crikey that graph is a mess (I am red/green colour blind), it makes me want to throw up :D

Proud Brexiteer here too, though not here to argue to be honest. Brexit is lost, I concede that. Democracy in the UK has taken a terrible knock though, may never be the same again.
What kind of Brexit did you hope for?
 

Breakage

Member
Mar 3, 2014
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Britain's lamentable state is mostly of its own making. Britain's cultural decline is down to the way people here have shunned their morals and traditions for the sake of pleasure and profit. For some sort of cultural rebirth, which Brexit will supposedly deliver, to happen, the conservative ideas that made Britain an attractive place in the past would have to become popular again. Thing is Brexit or no Brexit, I don't see that ever happening. Many people here have become enamoured of the licence and freedom granted to them via decades of increasingly liberal social policies. The will to go back to a more restrained lifestyle just isn't there.
Just go on to the Daily Mail to see what stimulates the minds of many Brits today. We are world leaders in trash culture.
 
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Ovek

Member
May 30, 2013
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They will most likely keep delaying it until they get what they want. Hopefully we get enough UKIP/TBP MEPS to cause a nuisance on voting against any extensions.
UK meps aren’t allowed to sit in any decision making meetings regarding Brexit or anything that will impact the future of Europe after Brexit.

And why exactly do you want meps to cause a nuisance? They are not the ones fucking up Brexit.
 
Oct 3, 2013
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Scotland!!!!
Honestly at this point, a lot of people have realized what they were promised and what they are getting are completely different things at this stage. We really need another referendum without all the shady shit.
 

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
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After today's EU decision I wish Germany would follow The UK. I am done with the EU and from now on I vote for Anti EU political parties.
Hey Britain you really took the high rode getting out of this complete incompetent Union lead by old people who have no clue about the real world but rather want to push their authoritarian directive
 
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switchback27

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Jul 26, 2018
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After today's EU decision I wish Germany would follow The UK. I am done with the EU and from now on I vote for Anti EU political parties.
Hey Britain you really took the high rode getting out of this complete incompetent Union lead by old people who have no clue about the real world but rather want to push their authoritarian directive
Out of the loop, what happened today regarding the EU?
 

Yoshi

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May 4, 2005
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www.gaming-universe.de
Copyright law just went through. GErmany of course was the decisive factor. Welcome to the censoring of the Internet. It has been a fun ride.
You do realise, when Germany is the decisive factor, it hardly is an issue of EU, but one of Germany, so even if Germany was not in the EU, it would still have passed a similar law, right? Also, note that the left parties (greens, left - who are in favour of the EU) actually predominantly voted against this law in the EU parliament, whereas it was lead and promoted by the conservatives (in Germany: CDU/CSU).