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[Deleted member 30609]

as someone who has never read a comic (well, in the large-scale sense), it has entirely to do with perception. Super-heroes are just such a turn off.

I hear good things about graphic novels, but I have no idea where to begin.

 

[Korey]

Video games and the internet.

Nobody reads anymore.

 

[Salazar]

I hear good things about graphic novels, but I have no idea where to begin.

Mouse Guard.

(A comic, in truth, but you buy it in hardback collections).

Also, Asterios Polyp and Logicomix.

 

[IrishNinja]

I hear good things about graphic novels, but I have no idea where to begin.

you cant go wrong with a lot of what's here.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

as someone who has never read a comic (well, in the large-scale sense), it has entirely to do with perception.

Super-heroes are just such a turn off.

I hear good things about 'graphic novels', but I have no idea where to begin and it isn't easy for me to find a starting point.

I've always enjoyed them.

They are little slices of the American dream, being powerful enough to save the world, but they are about nothing more then childish dreams.

When they try to come across as insightful they come across as pandering and perceptions of love and duty are generally completely juvenile in nature. They are at this point male oriented soap operas with fifty (at least) years of continuity. They aren't easy to just pick up unless you're going to really obsess (it was easier as a 13 year old) or you're going to use the internet to catch up with past plot-lines.

In the end it's usually not worth the effort because of the quality differences between writers and artists, the constant need to assuage a certain characters fans with half-hearted return to life bullshit.

"Oh shit you were a clone? Why didn't I see the truth?!"

"Rejoin the active roster bitch, this planet won't save itself!"

Characters gets death scenes, sometimes great, other times just God awful.

I love the concept, the colorful costumes, but good God superhero comics wasted a good thing two decades ago by not using the new interest to completely reinvent the superhero comic book. New companies at the time just created more of the same just more violent.

Wasted potential by superhero comics.

I fear for videogames because... umm they seem to be doing the same thing.

 

[EviLore]

yeah, Warren Ellis had a lot of interesting things to say about this in Come In Alone.

Yeah, let's take a look back.


Come In Alone #3, 12/17/1999

Commercial Anglophone comics are working against a massive drag factor in terms of breadth and purity of vision and other yardsticks of quality or cultural importance. A vast amount of the artform's energies are turned towards keeping the hundred or so company-owned continuing superhero comics alive. It's that appalling Simpsons side of the business, the dirty secret: it's the mass of people required to perform awful procedures on Mister Burns so that he can cheat death for another week. It's the hypnotic lie that has otherwise intelligent and talented people providing life support for old ideas, not for short periods to establish themselves in a harsh marketplace, but for years on end.

Come in Alone #5, 12/31/1999

Now, Grant Morrison claims that a new boom is coming back. With his astrological charts, reports on sunspot activity, entrails of roadkill and a bloody Etch-A-Sketch, he can prove that a cycle of industry wealth and success exists, and that we're currently moving along the upswing of the curve towards a brand new peak, a little optimum. In just a few years, everyone will be all over us again, people will back truckloads of money up to our doors, we'll shift more units of THE LONELY DEATH OF GOT NO LEGS BOY in one week than Shania bloody Twain shifts CDs in a year, and we'll all live like kings.

But, to be blunt, Grant is on drugs.

No boom coming, folks. A boom, at this stage, would require access to a larger audience. And the only audience we have, the only audience we currently have the apparatus to reach, is those people prepared to walk through the door of a direct market comics store.

On point.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Yeah, let's take a look back.


Come In Alone #3, 12/17/1999


Come in Alone #5, 12/31/1999


On point.

Smart person says smart thing.

News at 11.

 

[Salazar]

Perhaps someone in this thread can help:

Is Stan Lee really an epic cretin ?

 

[karobit]

Yeah, let's take a look back.

Man, I really should go back and read those. Always appreciate his stuff about the industry (Steven Grant too).

 

[karobit]

Perhaps someone in this thread can help:

Is Stan Lee really an epic cretin ?

In... what sense?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

In... what sense?

I've never had a problem with Stan Lee so I'm not sure what he's talking about.

He's part of the reason that comics took on a different shape in some of their formative years. Why they expanded beyond a set market. The unfortunate part is they had a lot of trouble expanding further.

I'm not going to act like truly inspired works don't exist in superhero comic books. Even mainline heroes have moments of greatness, but distribution models have been completely decimated because of the fall. There was a time I could go to my local grocery store and buy a comic book. Now I have to go 30 miles to find a place with any.

They didn't grab a wide enough market. They became an afterthought because of it.

 

[Neo C.]

Since developers seem to look at the PS3/360 as one platform. They've got a near parity marketbase to sell too on those two platforms versus the Wii. A marketbase that buys lots of software. Something the Wii market seems to be hemorrhaging.

The biggest danger to gaming, and something they don't seem to be learning from the comic book market is the reliance on a fixed market. The biggest games in the industry are still being marketed to young men, the most development money being put into $100 million dollar shooters.

Comic books relied too hard on the enthusiast market, and I don't exactly see videogames doing anything exactly that different.

This is exactly what I've been saying for years. And not surprisingly, it hasn't changed much even with the wildly success of Nintendo's broader direction; most companies just stick with making the same games with fancier graphics.

 

[Salazar]

I've never had a problem with Stan Lee so I'm not sure what he's talking about.

*Shrugs*

He can come off a little narcissistic. Probably reading too much into what folks who think Kirby got shafted have said.

 

[karobit]

*Shrugs*

He can come off a little narcissistic. Probably reading too much into what folks who think Kirby got shafted have said.

Stan Lee was/is a relentless self-promoter, but that was what Marvel needed in the early '60s. Any press he could get was press Marvel got by extension and if his crime is not immediately saying "Well, I didn't do all that" when he was credited as the creator of Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Hulk, Avengers, and Iron Man then I'm prepared to cut him slack.

Kirby was completely correct to feel under-appreciated at Marvel. But I also thinking having someone else redraw Superman's head and paste it over his art because he wasn't on-model enough was pretty goddamn humiliating. Kirby was almost as great at getting screwed as he was at being awesome.

 

[PARANO1A]

I read comics in the early 90's (early teens) and stopped when every series I followed seemed to pretty much seemed to jump the shark. Everything stopped being about developing an interesting arc and character development and moved into pushing multiple series and retconning the hell out of history. This basically made the characters and medium which we were expected to invest in seem ultimately pointless.

Some examples:
* Spiderman had the "clone saga" which dragged on for years... across four (five?) books, only to be completely pointless. Needless to say I stopped reading not long after the reveal of "Reilly is Parker!".
* Ghost Rider - the "Spirits of Vengeance" arc, where Johnny Blaze's story/emotional investment were basically reset as he "was always a Spirit of Vengeance". Then tying this across, what, 7 comics?? What the hell, Marvel?
* "Primal Wolverine" or whatever they called it. On and on across so many books.
* Spawn - started out as a breath of fresh air. And then came Medieval Spawn, Future Spawn, Dinosaur Spawn, Space Spawn, etc etc. Last I heard even the Violator had his own book. Good job to show the industry the way forward, Mr McFarlane.

There were just so many series - most of which I didn't read - which seemed to introduce pointless pushes for short-term sales, only to hit the reset button shortly afterwards. Killing Superman is one example, though plenty still exist (e.g. Batman, Captain America).

IMO that's what killed comics... they went for a short-term cash-grab, and ended up isolating the firm base by destroying why people bothered reading comics in the first place.

 

[akachan ningen]

They're like 30 pages, 10 of which are ads. They're ugly as shit and the stories are juvenile. And they cost $4. I'm amazed they're still around at all.

I still read TPBs just not the superhero shit.

 

[BaronLundi]

I don't know about the US or the rest of the world for that matter but in France comics (well bandes dessinées which is not exaclty the same thing) have been flourishing lately and the market is huge and diversified. Then again, over here comics have never been primarily considered as "kids stuff" and I don't know anyone who's never read comics and/or graphic novels.

 

[farnham]

The main thing to know is that the comic industry is all about pandering, to a fault. They pandered to collectors/speculators causing a market crash, and they continue to pander to fans of the aging, static superhero IPs, which prevents any growth from taking place or the medium being accepted as a legitimate/worthwhile form of entertainment by most of the population.

Distribution is a problem. If a new series doesn't meet certain sales standards out the gates then it's effectively impossible to continue with it in issue format. Digital distro will eventually solve this and allow for successful original IPs from creators who aren't already industry superstars.

this sounds just like the video game industry somehow

clinging on old franchises
hard for new IP to succeed etc.

 

[2San]

I think comics will make a comeback when they take over the manga structure(not talking about the art style). I think Scott Pilgrim is a perfect example of this.

 

[karobit]

I think comics will make a comeback when they take over the manga structure(not talking about the art style). I think Scott Pilgrim is a perfect example of this.

How is Scott Pilgrim a perfect example of the manga structure?

 

[IrishNinja]

goddamn, Ellis was a fucking prophet years back, and has been said here, some of that wisdom applies to games, too (pandering, not creating new channels for revenue, etc). i always wanted to open a comic shop/bar with a lot of the ideas he had in those columns.

I think comics will make a comeback when they take over the manga structure(not talking about the art style). I think Scott Pilgrim is a perfect example of this.

i know vertigo's talked about doing trade-only series for a while, but if you've got a hard time selling a piece of your story at $3, the question becomes: who's gonna "try it out" at around $15?
again, digital would fix much of this.

They're like 30 pages, 10 of which are ads. They're ugly as shit and the stories are juvenile. And they cost $4. I'm amazed they're still around at all.

I still read TPBs just not the superhero shit.

yeah, totally! and hip-hop is only what's on the radio.
dude, start with Bendis' run on Daredevil, that's none of what you described here (except for the page #, heh).

Kirby was completely correct to feel under-appreciated at Marvel. But I also thinking having someone else redraw Superman's head and paste it over his art because he wasn't on-model enough was pretty goddamn humiliating. Kirby was almost as great at getting screwed as he was at being awesome.

really? never heard that.

 

[farnham]

How is Scott Pilgrim a perfect example of the manga structure?

maybe he is referring to the tankobon structure ?

 

[arstal]

Not trying to expand their market at all.

When I was going to school years ago, the local comic book store, the anime was what brought in people, and they were a lot more diverse then the comic readers.

Yeah, girls read comics, and it was girls who got me into comics, but they're pretty rare. I noticed myself that the comic companies weren't catering to anyone outside the core market, so I quickly bailed once they cancelled things that got me into it.


The anime market is repeating history with its catering to a smaller and smaller fanbase as well. The last anime con I went to (was going for girl reasons)- one line I heard "There are too many people at this damn con who don't like anime." They were there for gaming or TF2, or whatever.

That said, Takashi Shiina doing Inuyasha sounds hilarious. (I love Shiina's stuff, but I can't imagine him making Inuyasha in a way I'd like.)

 

[i_am_ben]

as someone who has never read a comic (well, in the large-scale sense), it has entirely to do with perception. Super-heroes are just such a turn off.

I hear good things about graphic novels, but I have no idea where to begin.

wtf? superheros are awesome

 

[2San]

How is Scott Pilgrim a perfect example of the manga structure?

It's an example how comics can adopt the manga structure. By cutting costs and time by not using colored pages. Releasing in volumes(the amount of pages you get for what you pay is amazing compared to comics). It also ignores the whole main character needs to be superhero thing. Story has a proper beginning and ending with closure.

i know vertigo's talked about doing trade-only series for a while, but if you've got a hard time selling a piece of your story at $3, the question becomes: who's gonna "try it out" at around $15?
again, digital would fix much of this.

Well the way it works with Manga you get the whole magazine with various series in it(shounen Jump) can't see why we can't have something like that.

 

[IrishNinja]

well..euro readers had stuff like that with (if i recall correct here) Crisis, 2000 AD (some big writers got their start), closest i can think of with marvel would be the old Marvel Comics presents or the magazine stuff they did, anthology stuff like that never really took off over here though (sadly).

 

[2San]

well..euro readers had stuff like that with (if i recall correct here) Crisis, 2000 AD (some big writers got their start), closest i can think of with marvel would be the old Marvel Comics presents or the magazine stuff they did, anthology stuff like that never really took off over here though (sadly).

Now that I think about it we do have comic magazines. Donald Duck is still going strong and features various comics(they are episodic in nature though).

 

[karobit]

It's an example how comics can adopt the manga structure. By cutting costs and time by not using colored pages. Releasing in volumes(the amount of pages you get for what you pay is amazing compared to comics). It also ignores the whole main character needs to be superhero thing. Story has a proper beginning and ending with closure.

Well, it isn't uncommon for indie comics to be published in black and white. Titles like Cerebus ran for 25 years without color. Releasing direct to trade paperback is a little riskier proposition, especially for an indie creator and a smaller publisher, since there's so much upfront cost. I'm not exactly sure what O'Malley's situation was going into Scott Pilgrim, but it was definitely a gamble. And, again, non-open ended titles basically requires that the characters be independently-owned.

To look at the success of Scott Pilgrim and try to apply it's release to all other american comics would be foolhardy. I really don't think "manga structure" is the one-size-fits-all solution to the shrinking american comics market. Especially since the solution, as you've outlined there, is to basically do the opposite of everything they've been doing for 70 years.

 

[Dead Man]

well..euro readers had stuff like that with (if i recall correct here) Crisis, 2000 AD (some big writers got their start), closest i can think of with marvel would be the old Marvel Comics presents or the magazine stuff they did, anthology stuff like that never really took off over here though (sadly).

Heavy Metal made the jump to the US, not sure how successful it is there these days though.

 

[GodfatherX]

For me, it was a combination of 2 things.

1. Image was a huge breath of fresh air that became stale way too soon. Spawn, Gen13 ect seemed amazing at first.

2. The Age of Apicalypse. I know many aren't fans, but for me this series was exactly what xmen needed to stay relevant. With an interesting alternate future that took most of everything you knew about the comic and flipped it including art style, panel layouts, and paper stock. Nearly every panel from Alpha to Omega (granted the ending was a let down) was amazing...then what followed killed mine, and many of my friends interest in comics

Marvel -return to stale xmen, boring stories (wolverine with bone claws WTF). Essentially took everything good that was done in AoA and threw it away,seemingly horrible art styles and soon there after going to the horrible matte paper stock

DC - had a lot of attention with the death of superman and the 4 new possible replacements, but that arc didn't pan out very well and at the end many cared less about the comic then ever before. Batman was doing great things with the darker tones, unfortunately many ignored the books.

 

[WillyFive]

I think they lost popularity when they stopped trying to get new audiences to come in.

Before, comic books would be aimed at every kid out there. Now they don't, because they are aimed at comic book aficionados.

 

[2San]

Well, it isn't uncommon for indie comics to be published in black and white. Titles like Cerebus ran for 25 years without color. Releasing direct to trade paperback is a little riskier proposition, especially for an indie creator and a smaller publisher, since there's so much upfront cost. I'm not exactly sure what O'Malley's situation was going into Scott Pilgrim, but it was definitely a gamble. And, again, non-open ended titles basically requires that the characters be independently-owned.

To look at the success of Scott Pilgrim and try to apply it's release to all other american comics would be foolhardy. I really don't think "manga structure" is the one-size-fits-all solution to the shrinking american comics market. Especially since the solution, as you've outlined there, is to basically do the opposite of everything they've been doing for 70 years.

Fair enough, it would be nice to see more Scott Pilgrim type comics though. As much as I like manga, I dislike to whole w8ing for translations, shitty translation, cultural differences, etc.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

I think a number of reasons really, but one of the biggest reasons IMO is that comics are ghettoised into these tiny intimidating shops filled (for the most part) by fat stinky losers. I've been reading comics for nigh on 20 years now and have had arund 3 different comic stores. 2 out of those three have been owned by men with a body odour so prodigious that it could almost be an entity all of it's own.

I love comics but it has to be said that a good proportion of the reading public are the kinds of nerd stereotypes that have been around for years and years. If I go up to London I notice it less, but where I live my fellow customers are just embarrassing a lot of the time. I think that the singles market has become inextricably tied up with this perception of the nerdiest of the nerds and so the singles market is steadily dying.

When my friends come to my house I have comics everywhere and everyone reads them, boys and girls, nerds and non. But trying to get my friends to come to the store and lay some money down is another matter entirely, it's just too nerdy for most people to get into I think.

Add in factors like a perceived impenetrable continuity and the sheer price of the things, and I would be surprised if there is still an industry in 20 years' time.

 

[hamchan]

I've pretty much stopped reading superhero comics since I realised nothing in the story matters. Bruce Wayne or Captain America can die but it doesn't matter since he'll be back in a year's time anyways. It's kinda silly to be honest.

I enjoy comic books that I know will end. Stuff from Vertigo and manga, that I still read.

 

[Xater]

I love comics and I actually enjoy every kind, but yes they are way too expensive. Four dollar for a single issue is ridiculous. Of course some mgiht say that trades are an alternative, but for superhero stuff they are really not.

 

[Q8D3vil]

super heroes ( dc and marvel ) stuff are very hard to keep up with.
but stuff like y the last man and wanted are easy to read and don't have complicated background that's been running for 50 years.

 

[StoOgE]

I'll reiterate the problem with comic book stores:

If you want to by comics in central Austin you have two choices.

1) Dragon's Lair: Dragon's Lair is a comic book/Magic/D&D/Euro Board game/Warhammer 2K store. They fill every single aisle and inch of free space with folding tables and rent them out for people to play games on. No one will help you, and you have to squeeze by tables of super-nerds talking about their D&D characters back story. I'm not personally intimidated by this stuff because I am a super-nerd.. but you are never going to get a normal person to set foot in that place without turning around and running from the door. Even if they were willing to wade through the tables of people playing D&D or Warhammer minature games all of their comics are arranged by publisher. I get that it makes some kind of sense to do it that way for fans, but if you come in to buy Walking Dead because you heard good things you will never find it because you won't know who published the damn thing. There are also no employees paying any attention to anyone but the people playing the games.

2) Austin Comic Books: normal comic book store. Has no organization whatsoever. There isn't a wall of new releases they are mixed in together. Trade papers are in a rough alphabetical order.. except this is repeated several times over the store with no real rhyme or reason to it. For instance, there are 3 sections of Green Lantern trade papers.

I eventually had to ask an employee where they kept their walking dead comics (the aforementioned Dragon's Lair didn't have the 2nd TPB).. instead of the guy being helpful he started throwing around insider lingo. It was pretty clear I was lost and confused and instead of saying "where are you in the series?" or any kind of leading questions he walked me over to one of their new release sections and pointed at the 4 latest issues. 3-4 minutes later I found him again and told him I was looking for back issues.. and he looked at me and said "you mean trade papers?". YES I MEANT TRADE PAPERS YOU FUCKING CUNT. I AM TRYING TO GIVE YOU MONEY. I put up with it because I wanted the damn book and everyone else there was very nice..

but these are hurdles that would scare any normal customer off.

 

[teruterubozu]

Because comic book nerds produce comic books, making them increasingly insular with each generation.

 

[StoOgE]

super heroes ( dc and marvel ) stuff are very hard to keep up with.
but stuff like y the last man and wanted are easy to read and don't have complicated background that's been running for 50 years.

This too. The books that I got into.. I really enjoyed Green Lantern Rebirth.. but I read GL as a kid and had some idea what was going on. For a normal person, they buy this book that is a "jumping off point" for the series..

and they have to know who all 4 GL's are. They have to know who the GLC is, they have to know who Sinestro is. They have to know green light vs yellow light. They have to know Green Arrow, the JLA, the JSA, the history between Hal Jordan and a metric shitton of other characters.. the specific history of what happened to Hal Jordan nearly 20 years ago, who Spectre is, etc.

These long running books require too much digging. I found myself on wikipedia double checking a couple of backstory points here or there (I didn't know who the fuck Warrior was or that Hal had become Spectre at some point).

The amount of knowledge required to even comprehend a plot is a really big hurdle, and while the crossover stuff ensures that the people who already read comics have to buy a lot more it is a very very easy way to run everyone else off.

 

[BattleMonkey]

If anything theres more comics than ever coming out, more competition, and already lot of issues already listed here. DC and Marvel specifically have killed much of my interest in their characters and series with their never ending franchises, constant reboots, retcons, and wildly varying quality. The need to create these large and overly long complex universes where everyone and everything is happning at the same time just is such a sloppy mess. Comics would be so much better for these universes if the characters books were in their own universe not related to each other.

Lot of great non super hero books out there though which seem to have been gaining in popularity.

Pricing as already been mentioned is awful for what you get, and lot of stories feel really contrived, padded, or rushed for the sole purpose of filling up a 6 issue length trade.

 

[LosDaddie]

Internet and video games....at least for the new generation of would-be comic book readers.

Personally, comic books became too expensive for me to keep up with when I was kid.

 

[Roto13]

I'm not spending like $5 on something (yay Canada) I'm going to read in 10 minutes. I could go to a movie for twice that price and be entertained for two hours.

They're priced for collectors, who will gladly pay $5 for something they'll keep and worship forever and enjoy just owning. Not a lot of people feel that way, though.

It's also hard to get into a story that's been going on for 40 years.

Also, with a few exceptions, manga is fucking terrible. >_>

Perhaps someone in this thread can help:

Is Stan Lee really an epic cretin ?

I hate him so much. He pretty much just exists to ruin specific scenes in every Marvel movie or game.

 

[hamchan]

I didn't know people who hate Stan Lee existed.

 

[FoneBone]

I think the big reasons have already been covered (speculators' market in the early 90s, over-reliance on the direct market, poor value proposition). I'm really skeptical of arguments that the quality and content of current superhero books is a primary factor (you could go back and reread those books from the 90s to prove my point, but I don't recommend it).

 

[Roto13]

I think the big reasons have already been covered (speculators' market in the early 90s, over-reliance on the direct market, poor value proposition). I'm really skeptical of arguments that the quality and content of current superhero books is a primary factor (you could go back and reread those books from the 90s to prove my point, but I don't recommend it).

I think superhero comic are much better now than they were 20 years ago. It's like comic book writers now actually understand that they're working with a visual medium and don't need to overnarrate everything!

 

[Monroeski]

I still buy some comics, even though I recognize that they're a pretty bad deal, as others have mentioned. $3 for a few minutes of entertainment is kind of weak when even the trades that come out every half year are much cheaper, but I buy few enough that I just accept that it's a vice and move on, I could be doing worse things with my money. I stopped doing Superhero comics a long while ago and that has helped immensely.

On a monthly basis now I pick up Conan, daytripper, The Unwritten, Chew, Cowboy Ninja Viking, and basically anything by Ben Templesmith, plus maybe something else here or there that looks interesting; unintentionally, I basically run down the Vertigo and Image titles and almost completely forgo Marvel and DC proper (their title just don't generally interest me anymore outside of stuff like Kick-Ass). Damn, maybe I buy more than I thought. :lol I average about $7.26 per week buying comics, so still, not all THAT bad.

 

[Ushojax]

Personally I've never liked comic books, at least superhero ones, because there is a complete lack of resolution. Things are retconned ad nauseam, dead characters spring back to life, there are frequently other dimensions or ridiculous crossovers. The need to keep the same characters going indefinitely means most of the stories mean sweet fuck all. Why should I invest in a character and his development when it can be so easily and frequently undone with some cheap deus ex machina or stupid retcon?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

The 90's?

You guys don't want to know how popular comics were in the 50's and 60's.

Holy shit. Those numbers will put any contemporary comics fan on the edge of the nearest bridge.

 

[FoneBone]

Personally I've never liked comic books, at least superhero ones, because there is a complete lack of resolution. Things are retconned ad nauseam, dead characters spring back to life, there are frequently other dimensions or ridiculous crossovers. The need to keep the same characters going indefinitely means most of the stories mean sweet fuck all. Why should I invest in a character and his development when it can be so easily and frequently undone with some cheap deus ex machina or stupid retcon?

A good story is a good story. It doesn't matter whether it's undone later or not.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

I remember reading various articles stating that comic book sales were at an all-time high in the early 90's (I think it was '93 to be specific) while today they are practically at an all-time low. I'm curious to as of how this happened? Comic book films have never been so popular with movies like The Dark Knight breaking box-office records in its day to some films based on niche source material such as Kick-Ass reaching moderate success. I'm just curious to as of why comics didn't rise in popularity and instead went through rapidly declined?

I'm not a huge comic book kind of guy so I'm not really sure of the answer

Spoiler

obviously since I'm asking for it

just found it odd that superhero films are all the rage these days yet the source material is anything but.

Did the various articles you read not mention the speculators market of the 90's which caused the crash?

Comics have continually watched their sales drop since the 1950's.

Welcome to comics.