• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Can we be proud of the British Empire?

Status
Not open for further replies.

dalin80

Banned
It is not even something to be proud of from a military history perspective. The Brits beat up a bunch of people hundreds of years behind them technologically. They didn't take down superior (in a military sense) opponents like the Romans, Macedonians, and Mongols did.

It was defeating the French and Spanish fleets that allowed the empire and they were arguably (especially the French) more technologically advanced, first ironclads etc. defeating those 'hundreds of years behind' was a consequence of beating European equals allowing the Royal navy to get there to colonise first.
 
Are you arguing for the opium wars here?
Like, what's the bigger point?

Britain went to war with China to force them to buy opium from them, they killed tens of thousands of people for that, ended up taking up pieces of China and making all Christians exempt from Chinese laws, all things that directly help bring the boxer rebellion and the fuckery that followed and you really want to argue that "well, it didn't technically destroyed China"?

It was a colonial crime, unjustifiable and unforgivable, I mean yeah, it's not as bad as some of the stuff the British did in Africa and India, but let's get fucking real here.

The original problem was the Chinese empire refused to diplomatically talk to the British traders and expected very unbalanced and unfair trade conditions to stand. The British felt that they had no alternative but to trade with corrupt officials who had an existing demand for Indian opium.

The trade of opium became so significant that it not only became a social issue but more importantly the flow of silver that was previously flowing from the American colonies to China suddenly started leaving the country.

When this problem of silver leaving the country became unbearable the Chinese blamed the British who already felt that they were being bullied and treated like sub human barbarians by what was then a relatively poor military power. In particular the British were outraged by how people sent to the Chinese to negotiate were held prisoner and tortured to death.

The basic problem for the Chinese was that their isolationist policies, greed and arrogance left them in a position that was unsustainable in the modern world. The British could have shown more restraint but really to say that China would not have have had any problems going forward is a stretch.
 

TCRS

Banned
It is not even something to be proud of from a military history perspective. The Brits beat up a bunch of people hundreds of years behind them technologically. They didn't take down superior (in a military sense) opponents like the Romans, Macedonians, and Mongols did.

ehm.. britain fought against superior or similarly equipped european powers all the time. only after the defeat of napoelon did britain become the overall hegemon. that's where phrases such as pax britannica and ruling the waves come from.

sure they were heavily advanced compared to many native armies of conquered countries (was the indian army that bad though? I heard they were pretty advanced), but that came due to the armament and advances made during the endless wars against established european powers.
 

Marc

Member
I disagree. I think you can acknowledge the achievements. But celebration flies in the face of the "cost" that it took to achieve.

I guess what I'm saying is we'd need a time machine and go ask some people that were killed if their involuntary sacrifice is worth celebrating. Their answer may be different than ours.

Not being entirely specific to this instance but you could say that about so many things, nearly everything in fact. Its pretty damn rare for anything of note to not have a cost and 'sacrifice' attached to it. Even sporting events, something like a world cup ends up killing people to achieve. People only tend to mention it when it starts entering into 'village' levels of death, as if several individuals dying is okay. Difference being there are no memorials commemorated the world over to remember their sacrifice. Same with scientific discoveries. Some even get a free pass with many, deeply religious people will point fingers at such a death toll from an empire while ignoring the body count of their own religion (or even from the book itself).

And I am sure the answer from most people who died from anything, be it noble or by choice, may want a different outcome. If you took a soldier from WW2 who was going to die and bring him to the modern world, ask him if its worth it and if so he gets sent back... yeah.

And lets be honest, the divisions left over by the British in many areas were there beforehand and will be for a long time after. Finding new and creative ways to divide ourselves from each other is the number 1 past time in history.



Anyway, for the question I think it is a case by case basis as every country is different. That is pretty complex to work out on their own whether it was worth it, let alone overall. Hard to find many countries without anything shameful in their past, can't gloss over it but I think people are too obsessed with this 'perfect' ideal of a country or person and what you can find pride in. When you look at anything with a microscope, things get pretty ugly. Idols and heroes suddenly become villains and despots. I grew up being told how amazing Churchill was in school, they left out a lot of the bad bits which I found out on my own behalf. Took the shine off him, as it should, and realized he is deeply flawed as are most people (I'd say all, but must be exceptions). So in summary, everyone is a bastard, but the scale of what kind of bastard you are can vary greatly. :)
 

4Tran

Member
Britain has pretty good press so it doesn't get the kind of condemnation that we don't hesitate to heap upon all sorts of acceptable targets. For example, almost everyone lays the deaths from the Ukraine famine and the Great Chinese Famine on Stalin and Mao, but it's a lot less popular to lay the deaths of the Bengal Famine on Churchill. If not for this effect, I doubt that this thread would even exist.

In general, I don't know how worthwhile it is to divide long reaching historical events like colonialism into ones we should be proud of and ones we shouldn't be proud of. It seems more important to see its significance and examine its far-reaching effects. On the whole, I think that it's inescapable that there are way too many negatives associated with the British Empire for it to be something to be proud of.

Are you arguing for the opium wars here?
Like, what's the bigger point?

Britain went to war with China to force them to buy opium from them, they killed tens of thousands of people for that, ended up taking up pieces of China and making all Christians exempt from Chinese laws, all things that directly help bring the boxer rebellion and the fuckery that followed and you really want to argue that "well, it didn't technically destroyed China"?
There's a strong argument to be made that, if it were not for the Opium Wars, the Qing Empire would have been much stronger and that the rebellions of the 19th century would have therefore been much less deadly.
 

cafemomo

Member
Corean Empire was better

cnfFfrj.jpg
 

massoluk

Banned
Well if you want to appoint blame for expansionist crimes then let's go back a couple of thousands years before the British empire and you will find Chinese emperors butchering their way across Asia to the borders of what is modern China, their crimes were also unjustifiable and unforgivable but you are applying a current viewpoint to a long historic event.

The last remnants of British rule left Africa over 60 years ago at some point those who have fucked up running the various nations will have to stop a long absent nation for their own incompetence... coughcough Mugabe coughcough.

Please, do not use "the others suck too!" argument. Yes, a lot of Chinese emperors are assholes, but how does this make Opium Trade in China and its consequences ok?
 

dalin80

Banned
Please, do not use "the others suck too!" argument. Yes, a lot of Chinese emperors are assholes, but how does this make Opium Trade in China and its consequences ok?

I didn't say it made anything OK. Just pointing out that was simply the ways of things in the past and judging one empire for it and not another simply doesn't work. It has only been very recently that we have simply got to good at war for those ways to continue and that has forced the modern perspective on the past.
 

Oersted

Member
I don't think you understand the impact of the industrialisation and the scientific advances that came out of Britain.


But we're not completely removed from it. A lot of what we have now (the commonwealth aside) could be said to be a descendent of that era, including the global economic trade systems and globalisation itself.

I don't think you understood my post.
 

jerry1594

Member
Well the British Empire was responsible for famines that killed millions in India. If you don't like brown people they were responsible for the potato famine in Ireland too.
 

TCRS

Banned
Oh god, it's the eugenics and "Africans are less intelligent and we need to talk about that" guy. Being proud of the British empire is bad, yes, dude.

is this the OP?

Nice try but I didn't say we need to talk about that, I said why don't we talk about lower IQs when it's a scientifically proven fact? Like American Psychological Association proven? Why do people shy away from it? But that's another topic, you are free to open another thread.
 

fawaz

Banned
You can be proud of whatever you want, but I think the Arab and Indian peoples especially will have a though time looking back at it favorably.
 
the British Empire were like squatters.

they let the Spanish, Portuguese, French, Dutch Empires go out and discover and colonize shit.... then 50 to 100 years later the English would end up taking over other Empire's territories.
 

Real Hero

Member
Nice try but I didn't say we need to talk about that, I said why don't we talk about it when it's a scientifically proven fact? Like American Psychological Association proven? Why do people shy away from it? But that's another topic, you are free to open another thread.
Spreading those ideas and theories was a big part of the justification for empire no? Seems relevant in that regard at least
 

EMT0

Banned
No. Britain ceded far too much discord and quite literally fucked the lives of billions between it's meddling in China politically, retardation of India economically, exploitation of Africa, and it's economic imperialism in Latin America fueling a notable number of wars such as the War of the Pacific. Britain was the US of Latin America in the 1800s, and even before then to be honest.
 

massoluk

Banned
No. Britain ceded far too much discord and quite literally fucked the lives of billions between it's meddling in China politically, retardation of India economically, exploitation of Africa, and it's economic imperialism in Latin America fueling a notable number of wars such as the War of the Pacific. Britain was the US of Latin America in the 1800s, and even before then to be honest.

They are lucky enough that the French out-assholed them in South East Asia, or the list would have been much longer.
 

EMT0

Banned
They are lucky enough that the French out-assholed them in South East Asia, or the list would have been much longer.

Well. We can also add the Middle East to the list. They triggered the Arab revolt and messed around in the Trucial states and Persia. And then there's Egypt...
 

Dazzler

Member
I feel like it should bother more Canadian people that the Queen is on their currency, but they seem completely nonplussed about the whole thing
 

Hari Seldon

Member
ehm.. britain fought against superior or similarly equipped european powers all the time. only after the defeat of napoelon did britain become the overall hegemon. that's where phrases such as pax britannica and ruling the waves come from.

sure they were heavily advanced compared to many native armies of conquered countries (was the indian army that bad though? I heard they were pretty advanced), but that came due to the armament and advances made during the endless wars against established european powers.

The British were one of 4 to 7 super powers depending on the time period. They did not conquer other super powers like the greater (in military terms) empires that I mentioned. At best they joined coalitions in European wars and then signed treaties exchanging colonies so they could get back to subjugating the non-European world for profit.
 
I'm going to have to look into this a bit, but I think I remember reading that the British colonies actually lost Britain money so the British empire really just killed and subjugated millions for no benefits other than dick waving IIRC.
 

Herne

Member
Hmm... I wonder what part education has to do with all of this possibly rosy-eyed view of the empire. Many British people voted Oliver Cromwell as one of the greatest Britons who ever lived, heedless of the several million people living next door who will forever view him as the greatest evil ever visited on them. I remember well the reactions of the Irish press at the time. One of my favourite stories is when the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, saw a portrait of Cromwell -

Robin Cook had recently assumed the position of Foreign Secretary, and decided that a physical manifestation of his ethical foreign policy would be the removal of a monumental portrait of portrait of Maharaja Sir Bir Shamsher Jang Bahadur Rana that hung in his private office. As this gentleman had served as Prime Minister of Nepal at the time of the Raj, it was felt to convey an overly imperial impression. In its place was hung solid, sensible and republican Oliver Cromwell.

Unfortunately, one of the first visitors following the replacement was Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach (the prime minister of Ireland). Straightaway, he noticed the painting of Oliver Cromwell. His reaction was instant and explosive - he walked out and refused to return until the portrait of “that murdering bastard” had been removed.

Or did he? This was too good an anecdote not to be repeated in newspapers, magazines and across the internet. But it may never have happened. Bertie Ahern strongly denied the story, telling the Irish Times that: "I can honestly say there was no walkout." Still, the Taoiseach was not best pleased, and left Robin Cook in no doubt as to his opinion on the 'great Englishman', and leaving the Foreign Secretary somewhat surpised by the strength of feeling.
(source)
 
I feel like it should bother more Canadian people that the Queen is on their currency, but they seem completely nonplussed about the whole thing
Canada is weird about the monarchy.

Average Canadians don't care.
You got white Anglo Protestant Conservatives who are still staunch Monarchists.
You got have Catholic French-Canadians who don't like the Monarchy.
 
I can totally be in awe of what this country achieved. Proud? Not so sure, but I'm certainly not disgusted or ashamed like some seem to be. Like, at all.

Anyway, Achaemenid Empire is my number 1.

Sure if you can be proud of mass murderers.

Ok then. Name me a country, empire or civilisation that ever existed that could not be called 'mass murderers' by someone or certain group of people. Just out of interest.
 

Hexa

Member
They had their purpose for the time but it was for the best it came to an end. I definitely respect what they accomplished overall though I can't say whether proud would be the right word. I do think they're cool though and don't view them as evil or "baddies".
 

TCRS

Banned
Look here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4347666

I just feel weird about a guy that posts all the type about the IQ difference between black/Hispanic men and women and that of white men and women praising an empire built on white supremacy.

The second time I wrote this was over a year after my thread. When I saw Opiates thread I remembered my own thread that I had created and it seemed relevant. Are you done derailing the thread now? Alternatively you could give a succinct answer to why we shouldn't discuss scientific findings because it hurts your feelings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom