• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Can we please stop with the whole "60 fps is not cinematic" argument.

mechphree

Member
Aug 31, 2013
1,392
0
0
Chicago IL
In direct response to TLOU and Neil Druckman stating they are targeting 60 fps people are now saying it's not "cinematic" . I played the hell out of TLOU and I feel it would definitely benefit from a bump in fps. Games that stutter and hit 25-30 fps don't feel very cinematic to me.

They feel heavy, weighted and not very responsive. I get the idea that most movies run in the 20 something fps zone, so having a game with those fps makes it feel more movie like. But IMO more fps = more life like and indicative of how we see real life. That for me at least creates more immersion and believability.

Not saying you can't do it at 30 fps but it just looks better for me at 60 . How do you feel about this ? Can 30 fps games be the only ones that offer a "cinematic experience ".

Edit 2 With The Order 1886 capped at 30 fps for that "filmic" look do you think it would still be able to capture realism if it was pushed to 60 fps?

Edit 1
Arne from Naughty Gods chimes in

Arne
"We've been putting out games at 30fps (more or less, yeah) for a while now. I mean, if you want only 24fps, that will let us put a whole lot more effects in!

Speaking less sarcastically, 30hz, 60hz and anything in between is more than just about being cinematic, it's about the underlying systems that affect gameplay and how they refresh. Your body/eye can't compensate for that like it does when watching 24fps source material on film. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge cinephile and buy Criterions, watch things in as original format as possible, etc., but in games, as most of us know, the higher the frame rate you can pull out, the better the overall experience, generally speaking.

Games vs. TV don't have that "soap opera" effect at higher than 24fps frame rates in my experience, but then again I'm not a dark10x frame rate peeper ;)

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing our final result with TLOU PS4. "


"Franklly, the visual fidelity of our PS3 cinematics were pretty fantastic. I'd love to see the gang push beyond that, but it is a pretty high bar to start from! As we get closer to release, etc., we can probably shed some more light on all this. "
 

Goon Boon

Banned
Sep 17, 2008
2,043
0
0
It's stockholm syndrome, people have been stuck with 30fps and below so long that they're rationalizing reasons to keep it around.
 

Salmonbottle

Member
Jan 11, 2011
231
0
0
I wish people would stop holding on to low framerates being cinematic in general. 24fps shouldn't be acceptable for.... anything.

You people are the reason no theaters around me were showing the Hobbit in 48fps! Embrace the future, you luddites!
 

Aesius

Member
May 19, 2009
7,371
1,636
1,220
Yeah, it's a ridiculous argument. 60 FPS is ideal for gaming. I don't mind 30, as long as it's locked. Dips into the 20s really break the immersion.
 

NIN90

Member
Apr 13, 2008
11,441
2
1,045
Germany
Those people don't seem to realize that games are an interactive medium and as such can only benefit by additional responsiveness.
 

Ridley327

Member
Feb 7, 2005
37,712
1
1,480
Games in 60 are great.

Anyone who argues that movies look better in 60 are terrible.

Well, we haven't had any major films at 60 fps yet, soooooooooooooo...

In any event, there's nothing inherently bad about a movie running at a higher framerate, either.
 

Platy

Member
Nov 26, 2009
37,140
6
880
Brazil
And while we are at it ...


Can we please stop calling ps4/xb1
/wiiu/3ds/vita
NEXT GEN ????
Worst case scenario, THE GEN STARTED LAST YEAR !!!
Are you people waiting for FireTV or Steamboxes ?
 

Blastoise

Banned
Oct 2, 2011
5,831
0
0
Well to me the cutscenes are distracting at 60fps. MGS:GZ for example. Because TLoU has so many cutscenes I hope that they would play them at 30fps.
 

M3d10n

Member
Aug 28, 2006
11,466
1
0
I have no issues with 60fps cutscenes, which are common in many PC games. They're even better when they also have motion blur, like Capcom's MT Framework games: the cutscenes in games like DMC4, RE5 and Lost Planet cutscenes look like pure sex at 60fps with motion blur. It's almost as if I could reach through the screen.
 

Chindogg

Member
Oct 5, 2010
6,336
0
0
I wish people would stop holding on to low framerates being cinematic in general. 24fps shouldn't be acceptable for.... anything.

You people are the reason no theaters around me were showing the Hobbit in 48fps! Embrace the future, you luddites!

The Hobbit in 48 is pretty jarring. You really have to get used to it and otherwise it looks like a video game with real people on top of it.

A high frame rate across everything doesn't make all formats better. Some work and some don't.
 

Freeman

Banned
Aug 23, 2013
6,273
2,002
840
60fps Uncharted 3 video they released felt very strange, I don't know why.

60fps to me has always been a positive thing as far as I can remember.
 

Ridley327

Member
Feb 7, 2005
37,712
1
1,480
Well to me the cutscenes are distracting at 60fps. MGS:GZ for example. Because TLoU has so many cutscenes I hope that they would play them at 30fps.

It makes zero sense for the cutscenes in Ground Zeroes to run at 30 fps since they seamlessly merge into the gameplay. Hell, the opening is a single-take shot that ends when you start controlling Snake, with no cuts in between. The game as a whole would look worse if the presentation wasn't set at 60 fps.
 

Blastoise

Banned
Oct 2, 2011
5,831
0
0
It makes zero sense for the cutscenes in Ground Zeroes to run at 30 fps since they seamlessly merge into the gameplay. Hell, the opening is a single-take shot that ends when you start controlling Snake, with no cuts in between. The game as a whole would look worse if the presentation wasn't set at 60 fps.

Yeah I know. But they were still distracting. The Hobbit at 48fps looked like crap.

TLoU had pre-rendered cutscenes anyway, so I would be surprised if they retained the cinematic feel.
 

Candescence

Member
Oct 3, 2013
2,901
0
0
People are actually making this argument? Oh, wow. That's just pathetic. Why would anyone settle for sub-30 for anything anymore? Storage space was a reasonable excuse for film ages ago, but in this day and age, we're seeing better storage space and even better framerates for film.

For interactive experiences, though, 60 should be the standard. Shame so many devs are sacrificing that for cheap bells and whistles.
 

GamingIsDead

Member
Nov 5, 2013
595
0
340
Southern States.
This game leans more towards being a film, since it's entire narrative is wrapped up in cutscenes.

That's nice but has nothing do with how it looks in motion. Rendered films employ a ton of motion blur to fill the frames and video games need to do the same if they want to keep that cinematic look.

Thankfully that is a variable that can be controlled to be recreated at any frame rate.
 

Fnord

Member
Jul 10, 2013
1,535
560
700
52
Mount Pleasant, SC
People associate 24-30 FPS with "cinematic" because of the limitations of film. It's the same reason people balk at higher frame rates for movies and TV, and decry them as "soap opera-like." There's nothing inherently better about lower frame rates. There's nothing inherently worse about higher frame rates. In games, film, or TV. We've simply become conditioned that lower frame rates equal higher quality media (more so with film than anything else). It'll take a while for that bias to dissipate, but I think it will over time. Personally, I really like even interpolated higher frame rates for visual media. The Walking Dead in 240 Hz is like watching a documentary about zombies. Or even more like being more directly involved with the action. It's kind of awesome. I get why there's resistance, but the reason for the resistance is counter-intuitive. It's kind of like "We can't do it that way, because we've always done it this way." Which I consider the worst argument one can possibly make.
 

brandonh83

Banned
Jun 26, 2005
69,632
1
0
38

Seconded... thirded... whatever. Two different mediums. I think movies at anything but 24fps or the average look weird, but every single game I've ever seen or played at 60fps is just marvelous.

Ground Zeroes included. People said that looks awkward at 60fps but that just goes over my fucking head.
 

nhlducks35

Member
Mar 25, 2012
8,851
0
0
Long Beach
I can't tell who's kidding

It will be less cinematic.

I'm getting it. Again.

I wonder how would 60 fps "aesthetic" fit this cinematic game (not a bad word here).

Maybe the look of 30 fps suits it better. Or maybe they'll implement some cool technique to avoid that amateur video look of pure 60.

Gameplay would benefit from 60, of course.

Well, "60FPS" aside, it is safe to say we see at a higher fidelity.

I'm just really worried about losing that visual flavor. But then again, God of War 3, with is 40ish FPS looked very cinematic, due ofcourse to camera angles, lighting, etc.

I will reserve judgement for now, but yeah, I didn't like the looks of UC3 in 60FPS at all.

Nothing would benefit it stylistically. It isn't a fighting game or is it a shooter. Keep the motion blur because visually it works.

I remember seeing the 60FPS for Uncharted 3 and that felt off too.

I don't think it will be 60fps. Considering the cinematic feel of the game, it's going to be 30.
 
Nov 10, 2010
34,172
1
0
Atlanta GA
always curious how 60fps would make a naughty dog feel. They always try to make animations look good, which usually makes movement feel a bit loose, similar to Ass Creed.

I assume it will make shooting better.
 

Jtrizzy

Member
Jun 20, 2007
8,667
0
0
North Carolina
This is absolutely the one thing that bothers me most on GAF. ALL games are better at 60. If devs want a cinematic feel they can just add motion blur and a bevy of other effects. Native refresh rate and resolution of the panel is ALWAYS ideal.
 

Felix Lighter

Member
Oct 2, 2007
20,750
1
0
From an aesthetic point of view, film has an advantage of perfect motion blur at 24 fps which games don't come close to and from a gameplay perspective, more frames equals more responsive input. The argument is ridiculous.
 

- J - D -

Member
Dec 9, 2009
17,413
1
0
I don't like high framerates in movies. It actually lessened my enjoyment of the Hobbit movies.

I'd prefer if they capped the framerate to 30 in cutscenes but 60 in gampelay.
 

Metfanant

Member
Jun 23, 2010
4,346
0
665
can we also stop with the "30fps is a slideshow" and "upscaled 720p looks like vaseline smeared on my screen" crap as well, while we're at it??...

both of those are just as ridiculous....im not defending lower framerates..60fps is better, period....but this works both ways
 

Cartman86

Banned
May 31, 2006
8,578
0
0
Seattle, WA
www.twitter.com
Maybe for the same reason I think film looks weird in anything other than 24 (including British television) I am totally fine with games running at a range of framerates (60 is best) Obviously it's needed in gameplay for responsiveness, but even in cutscenes I don't find the fast look getting in the way of telling whatever story is being told. Basically I'm used to each format looking a certain way and have coped. Maybe if films were all shot in 48 fps as I grew up I wouldn't care there either.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
Jun 17, 2013
7,474
2
0
Belleville, Illinois
I'm going to be that annoying guy who quotes the dictionary.

Full Definition of CINEMATIC
1: of, relating to, suggestive of, or suitable for motion pictures or the filming of motion pictures <cinematic principles and techniques>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cinematic

Since a vast majority of films are done in 24 fps, I would say that 60 fps is not very cinematic.

Not that it really matters. 60 fps does not have to be better at everything than 30 fps. 60 fps is used to make a game look smooth and silky, and I would say that it does its job very well.
 

Xisiqomelir

Member
Dec 25, 2006
6,095
226
1,455
39
Games don't have to be cinematic.

Movies should be, but a lot of the 60 fps "sitcom cam" effect vs a 24 fps "Xfiles cam" effect has more to do with lighting than framerate.
 

brandonh83

Banned
Jun 26, 2005
69,632
1
0
38
60fps makes everything far more atmospheric to me. Especially when there are lots of particles involved. Trying to imagine Silent Hill at 60fps with fog, rain, grotesque creature animation... animating at that frame rate... I can't. The thought of it melts my brain. Please happen.
 

Endo Punk

Member
Sep 4, 2011
8,780
1
0
I have absolutely zero problems playing games at 30fps but given the option I would always prefer 60fps. When people make such excuses to hate on 60fps it confuses me so much I just don't feel like joining the conversation.

Yes 60fps don't show up in pictures but you play videogames, 60fps is great for playing videogames, better movement, control and feel. How can people turn that into a negative is beyond me.
 

mechphree

Member
Aug 31, 2013
1,392
0
0
Chicago IL
I'm going to be that annoying guy who quotes the dictionary.

Full Definition of CINEMATIC
1: of, relating to, suggestive of, or suitable for motion pictures or the filming of motion pictures <cinematic principles and techniques>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cinematic

Since a vast majority of films are done in 24 fps, I would say that 60 fps is not very cinematic.

Not that it really matters. 60 fps does not have to be better at everything than 30 fps. 60 fps is used to make a game look smooth and silky, and I would say that it does its job very well.

The definition has nothing to do with FPS though. If movies were shot in 60 then 30 would feel weird. I get what you were trying to do though.

My problem is people trying to relate games media to film media. 60 fps cut scenes are very cinematic for me. Yet I don't think you can accurately compare film fps to games fps and make a comparable argument since games don't have to follow the same rules as film .
 
Feb 24, 2010
5,370
0
0
Our tvs have been 60hz for an eternity, 60 fps is ideal for display reasons.

That said, I'm a huge supporter of locked 30FPS to enjoy all the bells and whistles that double the frame time can allow.

As long as you can hit a consistent 30, 60, or 120 I'm all for it.
 

Jtrizzy

Member
Jun 20, 2007
8,667
0
0
North Carolina
can we also stop with the "30fps is a slideshow" and "upscaled 720p looks like vaseline smeared on my screen" crap as well, while we're at it??...

both of those are just as ridiculous....im not defending lower framerates..60fps is better, period....but this works both ways

Not really. Those are subjective statements, while saying 30 fps is better than 60 in a video game is simply untrue. They are hyperbole, but I personally don't play games that have both of those qualities. 900p30 should be the absolute bare minimum for any game now.