Support NeoGAF

[Battersea Power Station]

I have recordings of some sabre (which is one of the 3 kinds of fencing -- foil, epee, and sabre) bouts from a Grand Prix World Cup in Las Vegas last weekend. As the last World Cup before the Olympics, it was one of the strongest tournaments of the year, if not the strongest.

The last two bouts (one of the semi-finals and the final) included some of the best fencing I've ever seen from Aldo Montano, the 2004 Olympic champion. But I realize it's because I'm used to looking at certain things within the sport and only appreciate them because I try to do them myself. I have no idea if they contain any outside appeal.

So, watching these bouts, do you guys get anything out of it, or does it just seem like a bunch of silly running around and yelling? It's fine to be honest: if you like something, tell me what that is; if it does not appeal to you because it's a completely arbitrary sport unrelated to swordfighting (which is true), then say so.

Make sure you select the high quality setting.

Here's one of the semi-finals (it's part 1 of 2; there's a link to part 2 at the end of the video):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ns7Qrf3xsXI

and the gold medal bout (same deal with parts 1 and 2):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xGDeRZSj02U

Quick note: In these two videos, the green light means the fencer on the left hit and the red light means the fencer on the right hit. The machine has a window of about .1 seconds from the time a hit is made. So basically if one fencer hits and the other does not hit within a tenth of a second, the second fencer's light will not go on.

Direct elimination bouts like these are fenced to 15 touches (points).

Sorry about the glaring lights overhead. The person taking the footage didn't realize it at the time.

To contrast, here's some supposed (and limited) footage from the 1936 Olympics, when fencing was much different. The sabre footage starts at 0:45.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=79EsZgZFZqA

As you can see, it's much more stationary, i.e. bladework-based instead of footwork-based.

Which one would you prefer to watch?

If you have any questions or need any clarification, please ask me. Thanks.

 

[bjork]

I think it's fun to watch, but the fast pace is hard to follow, so I miss it when someone scores a hit. I have the same problem watching hockey though, and I just blame it on my eyesight.

I prefer the older video as far as fighting style, but I think that's because it resembles a movie swordfight more than the newer one. :lol

This is one of those things I always wanted to try, but have no idea where to go about doing so.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

The fast pace is exclusive to sabre, for the most part.

Usually foil and epee are much slower, as shown by some examples here:

foil: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SMpeemTFOZE

epee: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LT7Nvo7sXFA

As for where you can do it, you can look at some clubs near your area using this site:

http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/content/category/7/325/80/

or ask some of the nerds on this forum:

http://www.fencing.net/forums/

 

[muttyeah416]

i used to fence in high school. lots of fun, but i don't know if it's something i would revisit

 

[itxaka]

The old one looks more impressive, because you can see how they block the attacks and everything.

Fast pace is meant to be recorded with a high speed camera IMO so you can see it on detail.

 

[Karakand]

I enjoy watching sabre matches. Something about the BAM YOU GOT GOT, SUCKA is cool to me.

Don't really go out of my way to watch outside the Olympics though.

 

[kozmo7]

How strange, I was just thinking of fencing myself. Been dying for a hobby and I keep coming back to fencing. Haven't taken any kind of lesson yet but I really would like to.

Do beginners usually start out on foil?

Do they not fence like in that video that was shown from the 1936 Olympics? I like that, they seem to be blocking much more. Is that more common for sabre?

I am more familiar with foil and think of epee as a 'less floppier foil'. That's as far as I know about fencing though.

 

[devilhawk]

First thing I thought of: "What does she have to do? Sit on your face?" :lol Love that movie

I always thought they volleyed for longer. Is volley the right term in fencing?

 

[Boogie9IGN]

I fenced for a bit in college and it was pretty fun. Lots of tedious drills though.

I tried to do what the OP said about the Berlin Olympics video (bladework over footwork) but nowadays it's mostly taught as feet over blade. This allows for crazy ass guys (at least in the beginning levels) to rush you and flail about with their foil to score a point or run you off the strip rather than focus on specific blade motions.

But anyway, I tend to only watch fencing at the Olympic level. Once in a while if I'm bored and feeling creative, I go search for world cup matches and watch them for a while

 

[way more]

The sabre vids were pretty cool. I wish they would fight on a ringed mat so they could move laterally too.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Do beginners usually start out on foil?

Do they not fence like in that video that was shown from the 1936 Olympics? I like that, they seem to be blocking much more. Is that more common for sabre?

I am more familiar with foil and think of epee as a 'less floppier foil'. That's as far as I know about fencing though.

Historically, fencers began instruction in foil and then either stayed in that weapon or moved to sabre or epee. Nowadays, that's much less true. Many coaches recommend weapons based on the student's physical build and/or demeanor.

Like I said, sabre is mostly footwork based, with relatively few actions involving the blade. The main reason for this is that sabre is an edge weapon, meaning that besides hitting with the point (which is rare), you can also score with the blade itself (much more common).

Because it's so simple to hit (all you have to do is have your blade contact the opponent's jacket or mask, which make up the valid target), distance becomes a much more effective tool of defense. A parry is just not as reliable against a good fencer who can feint or go around said parry. You have to use your feet to avoid the attack. And obviously when the defender uses his feet, the attacker will as well.

Epee is the most bladework-focused. The reason for this is that there is no right-of-way in epee, while it exists in foil and sabre. I don't want to get into too technical an explanation of right-of-way, so here it is in basic terms:

If one fencer initiates the attack and both fencers register a hit, the person who initiates the attack has the right-of-way and scores the touch. If one person parries an attack or makes it fail with distance, that fencer now has the right-of-way. Of course, none of this matters if only one fencer registers a hit.

In epee, there's no right-of-way. The only rule is: hit first. As such, it becomes very important to attack in a way that doesn't make you vulnerable, so bladework becomes the focus over the footwork.

Sorry if this is getting rambly.

I always thought they volleyed for longer. Is volley the right term in fencing?

I've been fencing for about 10 years and have not heard the term, but maybe in another country it's used.

Regarding sabre: As you can see in that video from 1936, they did "volley" or fence for longer before someone scored. The main reason is that touches back then were scored by 4 judges, who stood in pairs on either side of the strip (fencing area) and were expected to see when a fencer was hit.

If the blade happened to brush you on your target area at high speed, the judges would miss it. Hits had to be very obvious to the human eye. When a hit is obvious, it's also easier to parry. Thus there was more bladework. Nowadays, because of the electric scoring, any light touch of the sabre to the target area will make register as a hit. Since hits can be so quick and light, parrying becomes difficult, and distance becomes the bigger tool.

Regarding foil and epee, you have to hit with the point in order to score, which is more difficult, so bladework plays a bigger role.

 

[devilhawk]

Sorry if this is getting rambly.I've been fencing for about 10 years and have not heard the term, but maybe in another country it's used.

Fencing would probably be the right term, but you got what I meant. With electronic scoring where it can measure the precise force and length of time of contact (don't worry, I just looked it up), why don't they just up those parameters to make it a longer bout? Or is that not what people fencing want?

 

[James Power]

I'm on the fence about this sport. On the one hand you have these nice shiny white clothes on the other you "fight" with non-lethal swords.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Fencing would probably be the right term, but you got what I meant. With electronic scoring where it can measure the precise force and length of time of contact (don't worry, I just looked it up), why don't they just up those parameters to make it a longer bout? Or is that not what people fencing want?

Well, a couple of things:

1) In sabre you have to make contact between the blade and the target area to score. It's a simple electrical circuit that makes the light go on right away. There's no force or time measurement.

In foil and epee, you must make contact with the point in order to score. They're both thrusting weapons. To score this, they have tiny push button tips on the ends. In order to score, you have to depress the point with a certain amount of pressure (.75 N for epee and .5 N for foil, I think) for a certain amount of time (some tiny fraction of a second). In that regard, you generally have to make a solid hit in order to make a touch. The points (touches) do last longer in foil and epee than in sabre, mainly because of the difference in degree of difficulty of scoring.

2) Because of the different nature of hits in sabre, there's no technologically practical way to measure how well you hit. I'm sure eventually we will have a solution to this that's non-cost prohibitive, which brings up the next points.

3) Fencers, especially sabre fencers, don't want a point to last for a very long time. If you can score, you should score -- why delay it? While you'll never hear me claim that fencing resembles sword-fighting, on this point they share a similarity. If I were in a real sword-fight, I would try to avoid a "conversation" of the blades, as anytime I'm trying to parry, my opponent is attacking and thus has a chance to hit me. If I can attack him, I'd surely take the chance; I wouldn't go for his blade, but for his body.

4) The governing body of international fencing right now, the FIE, does want somewhat of a return to the roots of fencing, so, as I said, if the technology allows us to measure how well a hit with a sabre lands, they would sure adopt it. One of the main reasons is that they do want better ratings, and viewers would get more out of bladework and than footwork.

Some fencers would welcome this change. Many, however, would be opposed because they believe light hits allow for more finesse and playing around with timing, while having to perform strong, deep cuts would make the game rougher and more uniform in tempo.

It depends on what you're looking for in the sport.

 

[kozmo7]

You've been fencing for a long time huh? Have you ever heard of Jeet Kune Do? Reason why I've been drawn to fencing so much is because of how much we were taught it when I was practicing JKD. Meaning our footwork and fencing concepts were ripped from fencing. Not able to practice it anymore due to medical complications (Doc doesn't want me getting pounded in the head anymore :lol) So I've been at a lose for a hobby for awhile.

Nowadays, that's much less true. Many coaches recommend weapons based on the student's physical build and/or demeanor.

This is interesting. This is just roughly, but what do they generally steer taller folks towards? I am 6'4.. curious how much reach has an advantage there with some small guy.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

This is interesting. This is just roughly, but what do they generally steer taller folks towards? I am 6'4.. curious how much reach has an advantage there with some small guy.

I've read The Tau of JKD, mainly because someone told me about Bruce Lee's comparison of fencing and JKD.

Unfortunately for me, a sabre fencer, I found out that Bruce Lee's experience was based on epee, mainly in the way that you bind the opponents blade while making a touch, thus protecting yourself while attacking. It seems this idea influenced his development in martial arts. (Still, there are many other good lessons in the book for everyone to apply.)

Coincidentally, taller fencers are generally steered toward epee, where a long reach will yield an advantage. This of course doesn't mean they're not successful in other weapons (I think the number 2 or 3 sabre fencer in the world is about 6'4") but many coaches are too rash to let you try out for yourself which you like better.

 

[slidewinder]

What is the point of this crap? I would just pull my 9 and shoot you dudes. One for attacking me with some kind of corny knife made out of foil, and the other for standing there like a clown in that ridiculous get-up. THAT WHITE COVERALL AINT BULLETPROOF NOW IS IT, GUY?

Really, though, this stuff's pretty interesting, so you could just as well have been a man, firmed up the ol' epee, and presented it as such, rather than trying to be all sly with this "outsider's perspective" BS.

 

[kozmo7]

Very cool, I am just soaking up all this information so far in here. It's always interested me and hey, I already know some of the footwork due to JKD too which is really neat.. Going to have to use that site you linked earlier to find a place to learn.

What is the point of this crap? I would just pull my 9 and shoot you dudes. One for attacking me with some kind of corny knife made out of foil, and the other for standing there like a clown in that ridiculous get-up. THAT WHITE COVERALL AINT BULLETPROOF NOW IS IT, GUY?

Really, though, this stuff's pretty interesting, so you could just as well have been a man, firmed up the ol' epee, and presented it as such, rather than trying to be all sly with this "outsider's perspective" BS.

:lol It's a sport man..

 

[Battersea Power Station]

What is the point of this crap? I would just pull my 9 and shoot you dudes. One for attacking me with some kind of corny knife made out of foil, and the other for standing there like a clown in that ridiculous get-up. THAT WHITE COVERALL AINT BULLETPROOF NOW IS IT, GUY?

Really, though, this stuff's pretty interesting, so you could just as well have been a man, firmed up the ol' epee, and presented it as such, rather than trying to be all sly with this "outsider's perspective" BS.

Eh, I was trying to sound as neutral as possible to get first impressions, since I know a lot of internet commentary can be less than honest -- I wanted real feedback.

It's just that I happened to catch some curling on TV, and I could not for the life of me get myself to be interested, while to the people involved, it seemed the most exciting moment of their lives. So I got into that line of thinking.

 

[John Harker]

I fenced (foil) for a few years; Ive been thinking of getting back into it, but I'm not sure.
I was pretty good; quick learner and fast, I got 1st and 3rd in a couple novice tournaments. I entered a bigger one my last fight and made it pretty decently into the DE rounds, not bad for someone so new at it...

Though the problem with electric is form doesn't really matter since they just judge off the lights. So much for establishing your attack.