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[Kujo]

!

 

[Giever]

I'm enjoying this new CRT shader I've been using lately:

https://github.com/libretro/common-shaders/blob/master/crt/crt-hyllian.cg

You can mess around with the variables to find something you like.

 

[Alo81]

I'll be right back.

 

[Alo81]

Pow!

http://a.pomf.se/htscom.webm

 

[To Far Away Times]

Use retroarch and a nice CRT filter or scanline setting and you should be all set.

Easy to set up and gives you great results.

 

[Kujo]

!

 

[scoobidoo112]

Not DKC2, but DKC3:

Spoiler

*Original assets only

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Anyone tried Vector Magic yet? (remember that microsoft research paper into upscaling sprites showing those examples...it was a mess even for sprites so DKC should look like Picasso).

It would probsbly be best used for inidivual layers or sprites for a mock-up.

 

[Alo81]

Does it run at a faster framerate than the webm?

In game is 60fps, while recording it's variable between 55 and 60, so there is a bit of stutter when recording, but when not it locks solid 60.

 

[Anth0ny]

Not DKC2, but DKC3:

Spoiler

*Original assets only

Do they still have access to all of the original assets for the DKC trilogy?

A "HD" collection would be so cool.

 

[Kujo]

!

 

[Kujo]

!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Hello

I'm French, and I'm new on these forums (it's why I can't create a new topic for the moment) and I think I share the same passion than you for the old games of the Super Nintendo and more particularly the "Donkey Kong Country" serie

I'm here, because I want to do some videos of the Donkey Kong Country games, but I'm never satisfied with the rendering.

I'm surprised to see, that all the videos that I saw on YouTube and were captures from the real Snes look almost better, like here :







I don't know if it's really better, but it's not aliased and it's natural.


This is for example, the best I can have I think, with an AviSynth script :

Here is the original picture :

But why is it always unnatural ? The picture is basically the same with the console, but it's still natural ! I would like to understand please

Thanks for your help !

 

[theclaw135]

Most games from this era were designed around RGB CRTs. To keep the game looking natural you'll want to work with its creators' vision, not fight it.

 

[Rei dos Vermes]

I believe CRT shaders + big screen is the best combination for playing old 2D games. I'm using RetroArch (bsnes core) with the CRT-Royale shader):

DKC2 (click to see the actual shape of the CRT mask)

It may not look that great on pre-rendered graphics, but it looks damn good on actual pixel art IMO:

MMX

 

[Gavin Stevens]

One of my all time fave games, if not number one. I would actually suck a banana from any Nintendo employee arsehole to get a HD 2D remake that changes nothing but uses all the original media for sprite and background work.

 

[Tesseract]

what we've learned from this thread is that NO, you cannot make dkc2 look good

 

[nkarafo]

I did reply 2 years ago but i can confirm, even now, things remain the same. You need a CRT TV. For modern displays the closest you can get is RetroArch + a CRT scanline filter but you have to make sure the scanlines are even. Uneven scan-lines look worse than any crappy HQ filter.

But even if you do have a good result it will still pale in comparison to a CRT. Modern displays have a lot of motion blurring/ghosting. Even a current 240hz monitor can't match the perfect motion resolution of even a crappy CRT because old games are locked at 60hz/fps. So there is no difference playing them on a 60hz or 1000hz modern display, or whatever. But on a 60hz CRT it's perfect.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Hello everybody,

Thanks for your answers

Most games from this era were designed around RGB CRTs. To keep the game looking natural you'll want to work with its creators' vision, not fight it.

I totally agree. But to do videos for YouTube, we have no choice I think

I believe CRT shaders + big screen is the best combination for playing old 2D games. I'm using RetroArch (bsnes core) with the CRT-Royale shader):

DKC2 (click to see the actual shape of the CRT mask)

It may not look that great on pre-rendered graphics, but it looks damn good on actual pixel art IMO:

MMX

It's not bad ! True !

But for me, it's a bit like having the nose clued to the screen. Do you see what I mean ?

One of my all time fave games, if not number one. I would actually suck a banana from any Nintendo employee arsehole to get a HD 2D remake that changes nothing but uses all the original media for sprite and background work.

I won't be so extreme, but I would love a HD remake too

what we've learned from this thread is that NO, you cannot make dkc2 look good

Yes, I think you're right

I did reply 2 years ago but i can confirm, even now, things remain the same. You need a CRT TV. For modern displays the closest you can get is RetroArch + a CRT scanline filter but you have to make sure the scanlines are even. Uneven scan-lines look worse than any crappy HQ filter.

But even if you do have a good result it will still pale in comparison to a CRT. Modern displays have a lot of motion blurring/ghosting. Even a current 240hz monitor can't match the perfect motion resolution of even a crappy CRT because old games are locked at 60hz/fps. So there is no difference playing them on a 60hz or 1000hz modern display, or whatever. But on a 60hz CRT it's perfect.

I tried HQ filter and xBRZ too, and yes, it's not really good !

CRT was so perfect for the old games, I have to admit it !

But how can we represent at best these old 2D games on a modern screen ?

The 1rst problem is, that we can't go back ! We are stucked with our modern display like LCD or OLED !
The 2nd problem is, if we don't want to let these old games die, we must apparently accept the sacrifice to show them with a false representation

Just to see the difference with "Sonic Mania" on a CRT screen... :



... and on a modern screen :



Really not the same, I agree !


Here are the different filters proposed in the game :



Filters:

0:25 None
0:49 Clear
1:15 CRT-Sharp
1:38 CRT-Soft

The "CRT-Soft" is not bad ! For the "Clear" filter, it simply looks like a bilinear filter or a little blur.

Here is the CRT filter on the Super Nes Classic Mini :

 

[Yoshi]

Looks great on my little CRT, so easy for me.

 

[Iaterain]

I've played Donkey Kong Trilogy for the first time in 2018 and in my opinion these games has aged well. The graphics are great, the music is surprisingly good and the gameplay is amazing. I liked them much more than modern Donkey Kongs.

 

[TaurezAG]

I hope you like scanlines

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I've played Donkey Kong Trilogy for the first time in 2018 and in my opinion these games has aged well. The graphics are great, the music is surprisingly good and the gameplay is amazing. I liked them much more than modern Donkey Kongs.

I agree ! I will always love these games I think !

I hope you like scanlines

I like the "neon colors" aspect, really !

But as I said above, the problem with the scanlines filters, is that we have the impression to be very close to the screen ! It stings the eyes a bit !

But it's really nice !

 

[baphomet]

I hope you like scanlines

What is this supposed to be emulating? It looks nothing like a crt.

 

[TaurezAG]

What is this supposed to be emulating? It looks nothing like a crt.

It's not really tuned after any real CRT. I had in mind some scanline effect and the bloom of a CRT.
It's just tuned to look good on a 1080p screen as I don't have a UHD sceen for that proper CRT-Royale experience.

I like the "neon colors" aspect, really !

But as I said above, the problem with the scanlines filters, is that we have the impression to be very close to the screen ! It stings the eyes a bit !

But it's really nice !

Here's a less eye-stinging screenshot

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Still a bit !

I don't say I don't like it, but for a video of gameplay, I don't think it's really comfortable for the eyes

 

[DrNeroCF]

Scanlines? OP said good, not way worse

 

[Skyfox]

How does it look on 3ds? It’s on the eShop right?

Maybe the smaller screen helps...

 

[V2Tommy]

Emulator filters disgust me. Vanilla or bust.

This. I’ll never comprehend how people try to change how things were meant to be.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

But it wasn't meant to be played on LCD screens

So, it wasn't meant to be pixelated neither !

Filters or not, it's a question of tastes !

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Hello,

Somebody knows what was the exact output resolution of the Super Nes please ?

I know the RAW picture is 256x224, but the output resolution... Was it 320x240 ?
How was the resolution from the source transformed ?


Thanks for the answer !

Because I find the result from the Virtual Console of the Wii U not bad, almost more natural than the Super Nes Classic Mini :





But it seams that the resolution for the VC is 480p, and then upscaled to 1080p for the output.

So, I suppose that the original resolution is doubled (equivalent to a Simple X2 filter or Nearest neighbor X2), upscaled to 320x240 with a bilinear filter, and finally upscaled to a 1080p resolution (with black borders ???) for the output.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Finally, it's not important !

 

[Spukc]

people in this thread thinking this looks better​

 

[#Phonepunk#]

play on a CRT and you will fix your problem

tbh i hate when people try and upscale pixel art. it's meant to be fuzzy, not sharp. it ends up looking weird. i don't get it. it makes as much sense as wanting a photograph to replace the famous impressionist work La Grande Jatte. it seems like entirely missing the point.

the game was designed for a specific resolution and a specific display. this is the only true way to play.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

people in this thread thinking this looks better​

​

Not false !

But the important I think, is that everybody can find what he wants !

play on a CRT and you will fix your problem

tbh i hate when people try and upscale pixel art. it's meant to be fuzzy, not sharp. it ends up looking weird. i don't get it. it makes as much sense as wanting a photograph to replace the famous impressionist work La Grande Jatte. it seems like entirely missing the point.

the game was designed for a specific resolution and a specific display. this is the only true way to play.

Yes. But how can we do when we want to show these games in a video ?

It's not only for playing, but to show, to the new generations for example ! And the new generation doesn't care about CRT screens !

The other problem is that I sold my Super Nes a long time ago. It's the same for our old TVs !

 

[kingbean]

I never thought those games looked good. They look downright ugly to me, same with Killer Instinct. I don't get the love at all.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Never ?

I personally think they were nice in the past, but now... it's pixelated ! Not the same !

By the way, I wonder if the term "pixel art" existed at the time

 

[Wonko_C]

This looks better than DKC Returns IMO:

 

[theclaw135]

play on a CRT and you will fix your problem

tbh i hate when people try and upscale pixel art. it's meant to be fuzzy, not sharp. it ends up looking weird. i don't get it. it makes as much sense as wanting a photograph to replace the famous impressionist work La Grande Jatte. it seems like entirely missing the point.

the game was designed for a specific resolution and a specific display. this is the only true way to play.

Well, somewhat less fuzzy than the average person saw in practice. Dot crawl and color bleed aren't the way to go.
The original model SNES was always RGB ready (SNES Jr released a year after DKC3).

I believe regular TVs back then, interlaced the picture to 480i and stretched it to 4:3.

 

[baphomet]

Never ?

I personally think they were nice in the past, but now... it's pixelated ! Not the same !

By the way, I wonder if the term "pixel art" existed at the time

I think your misremembering how they looked in the past. They were always clearly pixelated. While the term pixel art wasn't a thing, it definitely existed.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

This looks better than DKC Returns IMO:

I already saw his videos ! This guy does an amazing job !

Well, somewhat less fuzzy than the average person saw in practice. Dot crawl and color bleed aren't the way to go.
The original model SNES was always RGB ready (SNES Jr released a year after DKC3).

I believe regular TVs back then, interlaced the picture to 480i and stretched it to 4:3.

I wonder if it wasn't 240p, rather than 480i, because the picture was progressive I think

But the real resolution... ? 256x240, 320x240, black bars added, overscan... ? I don't really know !

I think your misremembering how they looked in the past. They were always clearly pixelated. While the term pixel art wasn't a thing, it definitely existed.

Yes, I'm not sure. But when I remember the DKCs or Killer Instinct, I only have the souvenir of something almost 3D. I don't have the souvenir that I saw any aliasing. I should have kept my Super Nes and my old CRT

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Even on a PVM, we can't see any aliasing on the edges :




Here is the result with the Super NT :

 

[baphomet]

Just saying, I open multiple PVMs and a BVM, even on them they're still very clearly made of pixels with blocky edges.

If you hook it up with rf on a shitty crt it'll lose tons of definition, but that's the opposite of making it "look good."

 

[SuperLumberjack]

But originally, these games weren't meant to be played on PVMs or BVMs neither.

It's a deformation done by some nostalgics. A PVM or a BVM is incapable to hide the dither in some of these games for example !

On a non prefessionnal CRT, the pixels weren't so visible. It's what the developpers had in mind I think !

In addition, logically, if we hadn't the nose glued to the screen, we weren't able to see pixels neither. It's why I think that the "pixel art" term, is rather recent. I never heard this expression in the old days. I believe that this expression was born with the modern screens. But maybe I'm wrong !

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I did some test to upscale this image in 2160p :

It's the Raw image in a resolution of 256x224.

The aspect ratio has to be changed in 4:3.

( In fact, it's closer to 64:49 to have perfect circle in some games I think. The Super NT proposes these resolutions for the 4:3 : 1170x896 (1170x960 in fact, because there are extra pixels), 1410x1080, etc.



)


Here is the result with a "Simple X3" filter and then bilinear to match a resolution of 2820x2160 :

And now, here is the result with a "Spline16" filter X4, and the bilinear to match the 2160p resolution :

I tried many filter, and the "Spline16" is the most natural ! I can render this picture sharper, but it's more artificial !


And the same picture on a Sony PVM (from the video in my previous post) :

What do you prefer ?

For me, the picture on the PVM is not as the 1st picture, and not as the 2nd, and it renders a low resolution image like a HD image.

It's sharper and most consisent than my 2nd picture, but the edges are less aliased than on the 1st picture.

But, as I said, it wasn't meant to be played on a PVM or a BVM. It was meant to be a bit more blurry I think.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Something between the 1rst and the 2nd picture :

It's a "Simple X2" filter (512x448), then "Spline16" X2 (1024x896) and the bilinear (2160p).

It's still not the same !

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Or this :

There is a simple "Bicubic" filter instead of the "Spline16" filter.


There are exactly the same details in each picture ! Nothing more, nothing less ! The sharper or blurrier aspect is purely subjective !

There is nothing else to do ! The result is always the same, whatever which filter is used... !

 

[SuperLumberjack]

This is on classic CRTs :

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Here is the result with a "Simple X3" ("Simple X6", sorry) filter and then bilinear to match a resolution of 2820x2160 :

https://lensdump.com/i/AdnZfm

 

[theclaw135]

I did some test to upscale this image in 2160p :

It's the Raw image in a resolution of 256x224.

The aspect ratio has to be changed in 4:3.

( In fact, it's closer to 64:49 to have perfect circle in some games I think. The Super NT proposes these resolutions for the 4:3 : 1170x896 (1170x960 in fact, because there are extra pixels), 1410x1080, etc.



)


Here is the result with a "Simple X3" filter and then bilinear to match a resolution of 2820x2160 :

And now, here is the result with a "Spline16" filter X4, and the bilinear to match the 2160p resolution :

I tried many filter, and the "Spline16" is the most natural ! I can render this picture sharper, but it's more artificial !


And the same picture on a Sony PVM (from the video in my previous post) :

What do you prefer ?

For me, the picture on the PVM is not as the 1st picture, and not as the 2nd, and it renders a low resolution image like a HD image.

It's sharper and most consisent than my 2nd picture, but the edges are less aliased than on the 1st picture.

But, as I said, it wasn't meant to be played on a PVM or a BVM. It was meant to be a bit more blurry I think.

PVM or BVM are professional monitors. You might get better results from a TV with SCART, Rare is a UK developer and definitely would've playtested that.