• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Captain America Civil War and the Problem of Time

Status
Not open for further replies.

guek

Banned
Film, like most forms of media, is an illusion. They are pictures in motion acting as a facsimile of reality. I noticed on my first viewing of Civil War something that momentarily broke this illusion in a way that I have yet to see discussed in depth elsewhere online. I’m referring to the passage of time and how a few of Civil War’s lighting and costuming choices may have inadvertently disoriented the audience respective to time. The scenes in question begin with Peggy Carter’s Funeral and extend all the way to Bucky’s capture in Bucharest. These scenes comprise the most narratively dense segments of the entire film, and though I have no doubt it was meticulously drafted, shot, and edited, a major problem seems to have slipped under the eyes of the Russo brothers. Time does not seem to change. To make understanding what I mean easier, here is a brief timeline of events and locations:


  • London – Peggy’s Funeral
  • London – Natasha and Steve
  • Vienna – Accords Signing
  • London – Sharon and Steve
  • Vienna – Bombing Aftermath
  • Bucharest – Bucky Identified
  • Bucharest - Bucky’s Capture
Before I discuss the funeral, it should be pointed out that the scene immediately preceding the cut to London are of Steve receiving the news of Peggy’s unfortunate death. He receives this message during an Avengers pow-wow arguing over whether or not the team should abide by the Sokovia Accords. This is important because moments before, Secretary Ross informed the Avengers that the ratification and signing of the Accords would take place in a few days time. This immediate cut from the Avengers facility in upstate New York to London is jarring because we later learn that Peggy’s funeral is conveniently held on the same day as the signing of the Accords.


London – Peggy’s Funeral - Natasha and Steve


IFho4ol.png


Peggy’s funeral begins with a giant title card filling the screen telling the audience they are now in London. As is typical of England weather, the sky is overcast and it is somewhat difficult to discern the actual time of day. However, considering what follows immediately afterwards, let’s assume that this is a grey London morning on which Peggy Carter is being laid to rest. The cathedral through which Steve carries Peggy’s casket is lit with beautiful natural light filtering in through both clear and stained glass windows. It’s obviously daytime.

YFJXmFr.png


Following the eulogy, we immediately cut to Steve standing alone in that same cathedral. Natasha makes her way down the pews towards him, not only to comfort him but also to let him know that her visit is a pit stop before she makes her way to Vienna for the signing of the Accords. Note what Steve is wearing.

ylX0uhJ.png


Vienna – Accords Signing // London – Sharon and Steve

hx6s5Vu.png


Another title card and suddenly we’re in Vienna. The day looks like it’s just beginning. T’Challa directs his gaze through giant glass windows before being approached by Natasha. This is where the first red flag went off for me. For those unaware, Vienna is east of London and located in the heart of central Europe. Commercial flight times between the two cities clock in at about 2hrs. While Natasha is undoubtedly flying in a private jet, likely a super advanced quinjet of Tony Stark’s making, she would still have had to travel from the London cathedral back to the airstrip, fly, land, and make her way to the location of the signing. Private jets can be slightly faster than commercial airlines but even so, it’s highly unlikely that her entire travel time is less than 2-3hrs. But why does it look like it’s still morning? Even if we ignore the geographical constraints of flying east from London and how that alone would put you later in the day, the sun should still have moved across the sky as Natasha traveled to Vienna and yet it has not. The sun appears to be suspended in the sky.

1rMR6f4.png


This detail in isolation would be an incredibly minor nitpick - a fumble that should have been caught but not beyond what our subconscious is willing to swallow to enjoy a movie. The film continues and Zemo bombs the UN summit. As the dust settles, we cut back to London where Steve, still in his funeral clothes, is escorting Sharon Carter through a hotel lobby back to her room. It’s not clear how much time has passed at first glance but it’s hard to ignore the sunlight pouring in through the windows. Once they’re informed of the bombing, the viewer can infer by the news reports that the story is only just now breaking. Sharon tells Steve she has to go to work and *BOOM!* we’re in Vienna again.

zVSgXgJ.png


Vienna – Bombing Aftermath

j6QXSrM.png


As paramedics and cleanup crew comb the area, Natasha receives a phone call from Steve who is now in Vienna. How in the world did Steve get there so fast? And there’s that damn sun again, shining bright as ever. Now is when the time distortion starts to become significantly disorienting. The passage of time is not something that is often directed straight to the viewer. Most commonly we see subtle cues that clue in our subconscious to the fact that time is moving forward. The casting of shadows will change, clocks may appear in the background, scenes alternate between day and night, etc. It’s basic filmmaking that few people actively notice but easily internalize if done right. The making of Civil War was a colossal endeavor costing hundreds of millions of dollars to produce and yet the seemingly benign detail of daylight changes was completely missed in editing.

uYmReKk.png


Bucharest - Bucky Identified

pMnahWp.png


The disorientating effect is further exacerbated by the next scene which cuts to Bucky in Bucharest. Again, it is at latest around midday. Bucky spots someone giving him the side eye in the marketplace and finds a picture of himself plastered on a newspaper. Clearly this isn’t the same day as the UN bombing but you would never have known that judging by the scene changes and the static lighting. While objects like newspapers, clocks, or calendars can effectively clue in the audience that time is moving forward, changes in daylight are the easiest to detect. The lighting is telling us one thing, the newspaper another, and even though the viewer can acknowledge that this is likely not the same day, coming to that conclusion requires an unnecessary step.

AiW3Y6H.png


The importance of avoiding these kinds of extra steps in filmmaking cannot be understated if the illusion of film is to be maintained. Civil War’s momentary lapse in timekeeping is eventually corrected and the film carries on without any further hiccups but this mistake in these moments end up causing more harm than one would think. The film is a packed 147 minutes long, and one of the more common complaints I’ve noticed is that the pacing in the first act feels like a slog. This was not my impression any of the times I saw it during its theatrical run but I wanted to see if the criticism had any merit upon my first home viewing. What I noticed was the first act feels much more condensed than either of the two that follow but is neither incomprehensible or particularly boring. That being said, the sloppy use of lighting as we jump from location to location gives the latter half of the first act a rushed, disjointed feeling that is hard to shake. I noticed it the first time I saw the film and can’t ignore it now that I’m actively looking for flaws. The movie feels like it’s moving too quickly through these scenes because the lighting cues give the impression that it is all occurring on the same day, in close proximity, within the span of a few short hours. Our conscious brain can recognize with a little effort that hours to days have passed but our subconscious brain is telling us something completely different. The result is a feeling of unease that unfortunately distracts our subconscious, marring the experience and breaking the illusion.

Ga5qYGU.png
 

Skab

Member
I can honestly say I never noticed any of that, and it wouldn't have bothered me if I had. (Nor does it now.)
 

Guy.brush

Member
Another "small" oversight is that German police SEK would NOT have any authority in BUCHAREST and they wouldn't be the ones to respond to a bomb attack in VIENNA in the first place. That stuff is primary school level of geography.
 

jph139

Member
Yeah, I remember the timeline being muddled pretty bad. Spacing things out a bit - funeral in Day 1, Cap and Widow talk on Night 1, Accords on Day 2, investigation on Afternoon 2, Bucky stuff on Day 3 - wouldn't have broken up flow and really would have helped with clarity.
 

Guy.brush

Member
I also heard that super heroes don't really exist

Such a statement lets filmmakers off the hook way too easily. You need some base level of world building and coherence in same to sell the idea of something like the Avengers.
Especially when you try to make your films look like Bourne spy thrillers on acid.
Having German police in Romania responding to a terror attack in Austria doesn't make any goddamn sense. just seems to be lazyness.
Most probably though they got some tax exempt funding from Leipzig Airport and needed to make that work in the story. So they put in some major scenes in Berlin, German police ah well lets just have a roadtrip with arrested Bucky from Romania to Berlin. It just didn't make any sense.
 

GPsych

Member
Another "small" oversight is that German police SEK would NOT have any authority in BUCHAREST and they wouldn't be the ones to respond to a bomb attack in VIENNA in the first place. That stuff is primary school level of geography.

In the Marvel universe, Germany clearly has law enforcement powers all over the world. Remember when Steve said, "When I woke up, they told me that we won. They didn't say what we lost." That's what he was talking about. The peace treaty after WWII granted Germany that level of law enforcement power.
 
I noticed it too. And I think its incredibly interesting in detail how these factors affect a movies imagery. But with more thought, I realize that aside from aligning a script with Dawn, Day, Dusk, and Night, It seems like it would be a huge waste of time and money for a film crew and studio to wait for time of day to line up for complete consistency.

Its too much cost for the absolute perfection of detail.
 

Guy.brush

Member
In the Marvel universe, Germany clearly has law enforcement powers all over the world. Remember when Steve said, "When I woke up, they told me that we won. They didn't say what we lost." That's what he was talking about. The peace treaty after WWII granted Germany that level of law enforcement power.

So that is why the CIA freely operates attack helicopters in Berlin... sigh
 

AMUSIX

Member
I don't think I ever thought that the accord signing was the same day as Peggy's funeral. Suppose Steve's suit didn't change, but perhaps he only brought one on the trip.


Then again, all movies stretch or compress time as needed in service of the story.
 

LakeEarth

Member
I agree there was confusion there.

The worst time issue is after Cap and Bucky head to Russia on the jet, Iron Man:
1. Tends to
War Machine, watching him get an MRI and talk to people
2. Heads to the
super secret underwater prison, talk to the general, talk to the prisoners
3. And THEN he heads to Russia, yet somehow gets there minutes after Cap does.

Yeah the timeline has problems.
 

Raptor

Member
Just one of many flaws of this film.

Im surprised it made that amount of money, in general is straight up garbage.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Chronologically, almost nothing in Civil War made sense. It's a pretty bad movie, but apparantly if you put in a snazzy 10 minute brawl you can get away with even the most mundane mediocrity.
 

Guy.brush

Member
Suspension of disbelief does wonders.

That only works when the wool put over your eyes, the illusion about to be cast is not contradictory in itself. As soon as you have this kind of incoherent world building, lots of people can't shut off their brain and just accept that.
You can have flying super people, you can have alien invasions, but you need to lay down the rules of the land you are trying to imagine. If the rules get broken right after they are established: BAD. If you don't even bother to establish those rules: Even worse, cause then everything on screen becomes an arbitary fireworks display where the audience cannot read consequences or deduct via some base logic why e.g. character X cannot use power Y but could before.
The bad geography and timeline in Civil War doesn't even count as violating your own ruleset though, that just seems convenience to get all scenes crammed into it. But geography and journey time is something a lot of people in the audience know something about, so it is hard for them to just put that stuff aside.
 

guek

Banned
Just one of many flaws of this film.

Im surprised it made that amount of money, in general is straight up garbage.
Please stop trying up troll in threads where it's not warranted

Edit: ok. We've clarified, I want sure if you were just trying to troll but it seems you're not. Apologies
 

AMUSIX

Member
I agree there was confusion there.

The worst time issue is after Cap and Bucky head to Russia on the jet, Iron Man:
1. Tends to
War Machine, watching him get an MRI and talk to people
2. Heads to the
super secret underwater prison, talk to the general, talk to the prisoners
3. And THEN he heads to Russia, yet somehow gets there minutes after Cap does.

Yeah the timeline has problems.

What they didn't make clear is that the quinjet that Cap and Bucky are in was the training jet, which only travels at 30 knots. See, on their way to Germany, Tony wanted to give Vision a chance to learn how to pilot the thing, so they took the gimped one.

This also means that Zemo spent a LONG time just sitting alone in the Siberian base waiting for someone to show up. They chose to remove the 47 games of "eye-spy" that he plays with himself.
 

Abounder

Banned
Shoehorning Spider-Man clunked up the movie, Black Panther & Co. was half-baked as a result and subplots felt rushed as hell.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
I agree there was confusion there.

The worst time issue is after Cap and Bucky head to Russia on the jet, Iron Man:
1. Tends to
War Machine, watching him get an MRI and talk to people
2. Heads to the
super secret underwater prison, talk to the general, talk to the prisoners
3. And THEN he heads to Russia, yet somehow gets there minutes after Cap does.

Yeah the timeline has problems.

...

Damn.

You guys are ruining Civil War for me!
 

AMUSIX

Member
Once again, compression and dilution of time is just a tool of film making. Anyone who has at least a passing interest in the craft knows this.

Need to maintain a sense of urgency? Compress things, make impossible jumps between locations, have an end of a day happen and then happen again. Need to put a lot of things on your characters' plates? Stretch a day out, repeat a morning over and over. Need to present a perfect moment of happiness? That 'moment' becomes much longer than it should be.

This is standard practice in film...and literature...and theater....
 

Gun Animal

Member
i noticed that too OP. First viewing I assumed that the signing was the day after peggy's funeral and second time i recognized it as the goof it is. The funeral scene needed to be shot very early in the morning (like 5-6 am) and the aftermath needed to be shot around dusk for it all to work. It's still somewhat believable, maybe that's what London looks like at 5 am as far as i know. They could have mitigated it with some color correction but I'm guessing they wanted to avoid those kinds of shenanigans after AOU.

my rationalization of the timeline:

6 am (London)/7 am (Vienna)
Peggy's funeral

9 am (London)/10 am (Vienna)
Natasha arrives at accords signing

1 pm (London)/2 pm (Vienna)
Steve arrives in Vienna
 

SephCast

Brotherhood of Shipley's
Yeah, movie could've used one night sequence, but honestly I didn't notice until this post.

Movie still rules. 2nd best MCU movie.
 
I noticed it when watching the movie. But if I can live with characters in GOT teleporting around Westeros, I can live with Marvel making Europe out to be the size of a small city,
 

Symphonia

Banned
Yes. In a movie with a man who can shrink and grow, a soldier who was frozen in WW2 and thawed out recently, and a teenage boy who can sling webs from his wrists, the timing and pacing was the most unrealistic thing about it.

OK.
 
Another "small" oversight is that German police SEK would NOT have any authority in BUCHAREST and they wouldn't be the ones to respond to a bomb attack in VIENNA in the first place. That stuff is primary school level of geography.


Reminds me of that scene of the A-Team-movie where they are supposed to be in Frankfurt, but show the Cologne Cathedral..
 

Guy.brush

Member
Once again, compression and dilution of time is just a tool of film making. Anyone who has at least a passing interest in the craft knows this.

Need to maintain a sense of urgency? Compress things, make impossible jumps between locations, have an end of a day happen and then happen again. Need to put a lot of things on your characters' plates? Stretch a day out, repeat a morning over and over. Need to present a perfect moment of happiness? That 'moment' becomes much longer than it should be.

This is standard practice in film...and literature...and theater....

Ah this is why Bay had a backdoor in the Smithsonian Museum that led directly to a sunbaked desert! It all makes sense now!
 

Guy.brush

Member
Reminds me of that scene of the A-Team-movie where they are supposed to be in Frankfurt, but show the Cologne Cathedral..

I might remember wrong but I think there was also a scene with them at border control and it was clearly not German border passport control but some other language police. Shit is hilarious.
 
I agree there was confusion there.

The worst time issue is after Cap and Bucky head to Russia on the jet, Iron Man:
1. Tends to
War Machine, watching him get an MRI and talk to people
2. Heads to the
super secret underwater prison, talk to the general, talk to the prisoners
3. And THEN he heads to Russia, yet somehow gets there minutes after Cap does.

Yeah the timeline has problems.

That Iron Man suit is fassssst
 

guek

Banned
Tony catching up at least had some daylight changes and it's not out there to assume the prison is somewhere in the north Atlantic in the direction of Siberia
 
I thought this was going to be about the problem on how our perception of the reason for the Civil War adjusted with time so that a large contingent of people today don't believe it was about Slavery.

But nope, I was wrong. It's about a comic book movie. Why would I have thought otherwise.
 

Veelk

Banned
I noticed that on my second viewing, but honestly, the timeline isn't a big deal to me personally.

The latter time issue is more pressing.

So it took Tony 24 hours to find Steve when he meets him at the airport fight. The fight happens, Rhodes gets injured, while Steve and Bucky escape to the Winter Soldier facility. I'm not sure how much time passes going by the daylight, but consider this.

Starting from the same location, it takes roughly the same amount of time for Steve and Bucky to get there as Tony...which makes no sense to me. Steve and Bucky head there as their main destination. Tony has to make sure his friend is taken care of medically visit Ross' prison and then from there leave to the destination Steve and Bucky were at, yet he only arrived a few minutes after them.

That's the one glaring inconsistency about CW that legitimately bothers me. Even if Ross's prison is somehow on the way to where Steve and Bucky were headed, Tony'd be lagging far behind them.
 

Dalek

Member
The only thing I noticed was the thing with Sharon basically teleporting to the bombing site immediately.

I agree there was confusion there.

The worst time issue is after Cap and Bucky head to Russia on the jet, Iron Man:
1. Tends to
War Machine, watching him get an MRI and talk to people
2. Heads to the
super secret underwater prison, talk to the general, talk to the prisoners
3. And THEN he heads to Russia, yet somehow gets there minutes after Cap does.

Yeah the timeline has problems.

This is literally one of those "Can't unsee" posts for me now. :)
 

kiguel182

Member
Movies play with time all the time. If you don't notice it during the movie (I didn't) then I say they pulled it off.

But you can say this about tons of stuff. Good editing will mask this.
 
Interesting and well-written. Without being well aware of the geography, time difference, and travel times some of that came across as unrealistic while watching, but I'm thankful it's not an issue that actually bothers me.

I did think this was about the actual Civil War before opening though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom