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CD Projekt Red Emergency Board Call Recording Online: Refunds, Multiplayer, More

Moogle11

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Almost 60% of sales were on PC alone, I think they could have made it work.

I mean, look at the situation now, I think it is inarguable that taking that course of action would have worked better. Even if they “fix” the game on those platforms, the reputation hit to the game and the studio is unreal. It won‘t escape this.

They have to meet their promises to investors if they want to keep people investing in the future. Investors aren't going to be happy getting less than 100% of the profit margins they were promised, and many are pissed if their profits don't exceed the promise as investors tend to view those as a floor rather than ceiling of profit expectations.

It would be different if they were totally self funded and didn't seek out investors. Then they'd have the flexibility to decide to drop versions and lower profit margins to best achieve their vision. Once you open the doors to investors, get them to invest by promising certain sales and profit milestones your hamstrung as missing those will harm your ability to make those kind of cuts as investors can sue and certainly won't invest in future efforts.

So then your faced with dealing with that, or harming your reputation with customers if you put out subpar product on some platforms like they've done here. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If CDPR is going to have lofty visions of doing huge scope games with high production values, they should probably just go back to being largely PC focused. Get their games out and running well on modern rigs and once they're done, look into downporting to consoles if they think it's worth it. And I say that as someone who failed to get into PC gaming and will likely never own another gaming PC. Just is what it is with these kind of games. If a dev's vision is taxing to even top level PC rigs, console versions are always going to be a challenge to get running adequately--much less if releasing at the same time.
 

Raven117

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Yeah, going to return my ps4 copy and wait until it releases on the ps5 officially. Gotta vote with your wallet, regardless of whether I will ultimately buy it anyway.

Fuck investors. They are garbage level people.
Well, this is an idiotic post.
 

MiguelItUp

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You can have QA’s part of the dev teams that do an excellent job. The problem is that it seems you had more of the actual coders being asked to do their own QA’s as the internal QA’s were not in large enough numbers.
Exactly. In the accumulative 8 years that I did QA at two different studios, our in-house QA did the most work and was much larger. A lot of the time we worked with Q-Loc and they just kind of helped tidy things up and tie up loose ends.

The in-house QA team can generally be larger than a lot of the other teams depending on the developer/publisher and project at hand.

The fact that they had other devs QA their own work was/is a huge mistake. I can't even begin to tell you the amount of times in my QA experience I had a coder/programmer tell me, "I saw it on my system, it was just fine!" But after baking a build I showed them what they saw was fine and it was completely broken. It's WAY too common.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Fuck investors. They are garbage level people.

Other thsn that nornal problems like every other company.

Idiots in managment vs. Developers
No way dude.

Investing is a way to make cash.

My portfolio has made a killing since labour day. One of my companies even got bought out and the stock went up $20. Only had 500 shares so that wasnt a million bucks. But it was a $10,000 swing ($13,000 cdn).
 
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diffusionx

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They have to meet their promises to investors if they want to keep people investing in the future. Investors aren't going to be happy getting less than 100% of the profit margins they were promised, and many are pissed if their profits don't exceed the promise as investors tend to view those as a floor rather than ceiling of profit expectations.

It would be different if they were totally self funded and didn't seek out investors. Then they'd have the flexibility to decide to drop versions and lower profit margins to best achieve their vision. Once you open the doors to investors, get them to invest by promising certain sales and profit milestones your hamstrung as missing those will harm your ability to make those kind of cuts as investors can sue and certainly won't invest in future efforts.

So then your faced with dealing with that, or harming your reputation with customers if you put out subpar product on some platforms like they've done here. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If CDPR is going to have lofty visions of doing huge scope games with high production values, they should probably just go back to being largely PC focused. Get their games out and running well on modern rigs and once they're done, look into downporting to consoles if they think it's worth it. And I say that as someone who failed to get into PC gaming and will likely never own another gaming PC. Just is what it is with these kind of games. If a dev's vision is taxing to even top level PC rigs, console versions are always going to be a challenge to get running adequately--much less if releasing at the same time.

First of all - investing has nothing to do with "promises", they get projections, sales data, ROI goals, potential upcoming risks, etc. Then people with money make investment decisions based on that. But nothing is a crystal ball. People who invest in a company understand they take on certain risks when they make an investment. The fact that they cannot release a PS4/X1 version because it's an irredeemable piece of shit that will do very real harm to the game and the company - that is one of those risks. One of the things that made CDPR such a valuable company was the insanely long legs that Witcher 3 had, where it was still selling tons of copies in 2018 and 2019. Now, I guess that could still happen with CP2077 but the hit to the game and their reputation is real.

Canceling these base versions would probably piss off some people invested in the short term, but the ones invested on longer timeframes would accept it better. As it is, all they did was do the reverse, make the people looking for a quick buck happy while hurting their reputation and the future of the game.
 
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wolywood

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This is a quote from CDPR about why there was no version of the Witcher 3 developed for PS3/XB360:

"Well we are afraid that the game we are creating is just too huge, too detailed to put on the current generation consoles. We didn’t want to compromise the quality of the game to get the size we wanted. This is why we are really excited that our work with “The Witcher 3” coincided with this new generation because we can finally create a world which is the size we wanted to be with the level of detail and care put into “The Witcher 2.”

IMO they should have taken the same approach with Cyberpunk. Sure the intial sales numbers would suffer, but a stable version of the game would have more than made up for that in the long run. And yes I know TW3 had its share of bugs at launch.
 

treemk

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Fuck investors. They are garbage level people.

In a way investors a another type of customer for CDPR, they are paying good money and expect something in return. Remember this mindset when you cry about investors not caring about players.
 

Yoda

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game needed another delay, or a staggered release where pc is released first.
 

ForestVSea

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I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll turn this around. While I take some issue with the construction of their apology, they do seem motivated to fix the situation. Presumably they can get last-gen versions to an at least playable state, and deliver next-gen quality eventually. Players will forgive a bungled launch if the devs stick with the game and make it good (see: No Man's Sky).

They could start by making it company policy that 1) reviewers/previews can show their own footage
2) they will show every version of their future games in their promotional material. That would show they actually are invested on a business strategy level to long term change
 

Jigsaah

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There are gamers and investors pressing for game releases everywhere, but that doesn't make every game shitty on release. CDPR has fallen victim of their own ambition and greedy.
I don't believe greed had much to do with it. The investors are greedy, yes. CDPR is beholden to them, like all publicly traded companies. I do agree that ambition is a reason but where would gaming be without ambition, it's hardly a bad thing.
 

Moogle11

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First of all - investing has nothing to do with "promises", they get projections, sales data, ROI goals, potential upcoming risks, etc. Then people with money make investment decisions based on that. But nothing is a crystal ball. People who invest in a company understand they take on certain risks when they make an investment. The fact that they cannot release a PS4/X1 version because it's an irredeemable piece of shit that will do very real harm to the game and the company - that is one of those risks. One of the things that made CDPR such a valuable company was the insanely long legs that Witcher 3 had, where it was still selling tons of copies in 2018 and 2019. Now, I guess that could still happen with CP2077 but the hit to the game and their reputation is real.

Canceling these base versions would probably piss off some people invested in the short term, but the ones invested on longer timeframes would accept it better. As it is, all they did was do the reverse, make the people looking for a quick buck happy while hurting their reputation and the future of the game.

I agree in general. It's just that most people investing in a game company (or any single company) are short-term investors. There's a lot of risk involved in investing in a single company and long-term investors are looking for safer long-term returns.

If I was CDPR, I'd never have turned to investors. They just got too big for their breeches and wanted to make top production value AAA games rather than just sticking to their strengths of story driven games with lower budgets which they could have funded themselves with their game sales and revenue from GOG. Thus they get in these kind of situations where they have a bunch of short-term investors who were expecting huge, short-term returns based on the success of The Witcher 3 who were no doubt increasingly pressuring them to get the game out after all the delays.

Put simply, if you want to put keeping customers happy first, either keep your games more AA level so you can self fund or go be a first party studio where a platform holder will bankroll you to make system selling exclusives even if they come at a loss or lesser profit. Otherwise your decisions will be driven by the pressures from your investors above all else and it's often going to be hard to satisfy both investors and your customers and investors just want to make that quick buck, back monetized games that milk consumers to line their pockets etc.
 
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Alebrije

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This time I do not blame investors is all about CEO and developing team being obscure and cheap regarding consoles version.

They should have cancelled PS4 and Xbone versions one year ago and just work on PC for this year relase and by april 2021 deliver PS5 and Series XS ones.

The recording says that no matter what they do PS4 and Xbone versions never will work great, they will do the possible to let te player finish the game without crashes but not improve anything else...son it seems will be like Call of duty on Wii compared to other versions...total crap. So if your only way to play this game is on a PS4 you are fucked for ever.....and CDPR knew it.
 
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I agree in general. It's just that most people investing in a game company (or any single company) are short-term investors. There's a lot of risk involved in investing in a single company and long-term investors are looking for safer long-term returns.

If I was CDPR, I'd never have turned to investors. They just got too big for their breeches and wanted to make top production value AAA games rather than just sticking to their strengths of story driven games with lower budgets which they could have funded themselves with their game sales and revenue from GOG. Thus they get in these kind of situations where they have a bunch of short-term investors who were expecting huge, short-term returns based on the success of The Witcher 3 who were no doubt increasingly pressuring them to get the game out after all the delays.

Put simply, if you want to put keeping customers happy first, either keep your games more AA level so you can self fund or go be a first party studio where a platform holder will bankroll you to make system selling exclusives even if they come at a loss or lesser profit. Otherwise your decisions will be driven by the pressures from your investors above all else and it's often going to be hard to satisfy both investors and your customers and investors just want to make that quick buck, back monetized games that milk consumers to line their pockets etc.
That's the way investing works. It can long term holds or short term.

Nobody has ever said if you invest in a stock or product you have to hold on for 40 years.
 
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GrayFoxPL

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Funniest thing was the girl at the beginning pronounce CD Projekt as "CD Project."

They probably give up on that long ago but in the conference devs still use correct name.

 

Moogle11

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That's the way investing works. It can long term holds or short term.

Nobody has ever said if you invest in a stock or product you have to hold on for 40 years.

That's the point I was making? That in the case of games it's almost all short-term investors so of course publicly invested studios are going to often cater to the whims of investors as if they fall short of their profit expectations they'll struggle to attract investors for future games.

It's a big reason I'm a console gamer and spend so much of my time on exclusive games. Those are the only AAA budget games where studios are often given the time and resources they need to make them shine as the platform holders need those highly polished showcase games to sell hardware and get people locked into their ecosystems and services even if that means reduced profit margins. Third party stuff is all about that quick return on investment for short-term investors and that means rushed, buggy launches, heavily monetized games that nickel and dime consumers etc. With exceptions of course.
 

Pietanic

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lol, the vast majority of AAA developers are console developers, you're mad because 1 isn't?

I’m not mad. So you’re saying they’re not console developers? Then they should not sell a half baked product on that platform. Makes Ubisoft games look extremely well constructed and optimised.
 
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ethomaz

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Funniest thing was the girl at the beginning pronounce CD Projekt as "CD Project."

They probably give up on that long ago but in the conference devs still use correct name.

Ohhhh how it is pronounced? I do the same.
 
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It's a big reason I'm a console gamer and spend so much of my time on exclusive games. Those are the only AAA budget games where studios are often given the time and resources they need to make them shine as the platform holders need those highly polished showcase games to sell hardware and get people locked into their ecosystems and services even if that means reduced profit margins. Third party stuff is all about that quick return on investment for short-term investors and that means rushed, buggy launches, heavily monetized games that nickel and dime consumers etc. With exceptions of course.
The reason why third party games seem more monetized (which I believe is true) is because the business model is distinct from console makers. Console makers make royalty fees, sub plan revenue, microtrans and digital sale cuts etc..... They can coast.

As for whether that means its a quick buck or not depends on the company. Some companies go for microtrans heavy models, some prefer just selling the game.

Among the biggest selling games are all third party, which are games that have high production values, sell a ton of copies, and microtrans model is really just bonus because they sell 20+ million copies anyway...... GTA (100 million copies), FIFA, COD, Skyrim/Fallout.
 
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DjMystix

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Awesome summary! Thank you so much! I would've never bothered if it wasn't for your summary.

I love CDPR but there is definitely no excuse for Cyberpunk 2077. And I just hate it when they keep referring to "last gen"!! m@#$f@#rs, you built this game FOR the "last gen" DURING the entire "last gen". For the record, there is no "next gen" version of the game out yet. I have been playing this on a PS5 and yes it runs better, but it was supposed to run better on PS4/XBO.

I also honestly am a little bummed that this game does not have a 3rd person mode. I am not buying their excuse of not having it. I personally think 3rd person would've been a better game but that will require more work, control mechanics like parkour, animations, cut scenes so they probably took the "easier" route and cut corners. This is just my opinion and yeah, I prefer 3rd person over a FPS, like a million times over.

So disappointed in this game. Not a single quest I have played so far without it bugging out. I am still enjoying the story and characters honestly and the City they built is truly breathtaking..
 
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mckmas8808

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Investors only care about immediate return on their investment and they haven't been getting that as this game has been in development hell with multiple delays which keep pushing the date for investors to get their returns.

If they'd canceled the current gen versions that would reduce copies sold a ton, reduce the return on investment and they'd have an uproar from investors already likely pissed at the multiple delays.

So they were kind of damned if they do, damned if they didn't. Cancel last gen versions (or delay again to polish more) and piss off their investors and have many unwilling to invest in future games. Launch as they did, and burn a lot of good will among gamers and risk longer term harm. They probably weighed those and decided the former was the bigger risk and gamers are largely used to games being rough at launch and fixed later these days.

Not saying that's right, just is what it is with development and release of huge budget, AAA games from investor funded studios/publishers. If a studio wants nearly unlimited budgets and time to achieve their vision, selling and becoming an first party studio is the way to go. The platform holders are desperate for super polished exclusives to sell their consoles and get people locked into their ecosystems and services and will take the hit. Otherwise the pressures are all going to be to make a quick, huge profit and meet promises made to investors above all else.

I wish companies just wouldn't care about the bolded. A content company should NEVER care more about investors than they do the content they create. Content is KING! It matters more than anything else in the media world. Investors will always shut up and be cool if the content is good and sales well.
 

Northeastmonk

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I just had a wild guess about them hiring an outsourced developer. The people who are experts in their field are probably doing contract work for themselves. They probably aren't sitting inside a corporate office all day long.

Those investors are money sharks. Shark Tank, but worse. They would rather have their vacation in the Bahamas than see a fan happy about their purchase. I knew that type of thing existed, but when you get an outline of what actually went on. Nothing prepares you for it. Why doesn't that investor go to GameStop or the car industry? Maybe he can make it out on the yacht before CDPR fixes cp2077.
 
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RedVIper

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I’m not mad. So you’re saying they’re not console developers? Then they should not sell a half baked product on that platform. Makes Ubisoft games look extremely well constructed and optimised.

I'm saying they're primarily PC developers because their games have always been more popular there.

The game absolutely needed more time, but seing console gamers crying because their platform wasn't the priority for once is just fucking funny.
 
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Awesome summary! Thank you so much! I would've never bothered if it wasn't for your summary.

I love CDPR but there is definitely no excuse for Cyberpunk 2077. And I just hate it when they keep referring to "last gen"!! m@#$f@#rs, you built this game FOR the "last gen" DURING the entire "last gen". For the record, there is no "next gen" version of the game out yet. I have been playing this on a PS5 and yes it runs better, but it was supposed to run better on PS4/XBO.

I also honestly am a little bummed that this game does not have a 3rd person mode. I am not buying their excuse of not having it. I personally think 3rd person would've been a better game but that will require more work, control mechanics like parkour, animations, cut scenes so they probably took the "easier" route and cut corners. This is just my opinion and yeah, I prefer 3rd person over a FPS, like a million times over.

So disappointed in this game. Not a single quest I have played so far without it bugging out. I am still enjoying the story and characters honestly and the City they built is truly breathtaking..

Bro PS4 and Xbone are last gen. The PC version does exist.

Also I think the game is way more immersive in first person and I'm very glad they went with it. Adding a third person option would be nice for people but hardly a priority considering combat etc is very clearly designed for first person.

If the game is unplayable on old gen - that isn't fair and you should be refunded. But also I can't get my head around wanting to play a game like the on old gen gear anyway. Just wait - it was obvious it was never going to run well on old hardware.
 
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I just had a wild guess about them hiring an outsourced developer. The people who are experts in there field are probably doing contract work for Those investors are money sharks. Shark Tank, but worse. They would rather have their vacation in the Bahamas than see a fan happy about their purchase. I knew that type of thing existed, but when you get an outline of what actually went on. Nothing prepares you for it. Why doesn't that investor go to GameStop or the car industry? Maybe he can make it out on the yacht before CDPR fixes cp2077.
That's not true.

Why would investors be happy about a poorly made game where there's going to be tons of refunds? How are they going to make money from a lousy product?
 
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Madflavor

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I know it's been said before, but they had to have known this was going to be a Category 5 Shitstorm releasing the game in the state it's in for last gen consoles. I get that they wanted to release it for the holidays, while we're in that awkward period between last and next gen consoles to maximize profit. But this is one of my biggest pet peeves. I absolutely hate Short Term Corporate Thinking. Make lots of money now, deal with the consequences later. This is the mentality of Management, while the development team is like "What? Are you serious? Holy fuck no, this is gonna be bad." All that crunch time and insane amount of hours they put into this game, and management is like "Release the game now. Make big money! *takes a drag out of his cig*"

Would it have been so bad if by October they were life "Hey look guys. Covid really fucked us, and this game ain't gonna be ready til mid-late 2021. We're really sorry, but we're not giving you an undercooked game." I mean the Covid defense is a legit and perfectly understandable situation.
 

Hawk269

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I listened to the whole thing as well and to me the head honchos sounded very defeated and I personally took away that they are genuinely sorry for delivering a crappy game to base console owners. I am in no way defending them nor do I think they don't deserve the shit they are getting because they really did fuck this up. Even on PC the game has a lot of issues, but it just looks incredible with great hardware.

But my take after listening to it is that they are going to do whatever they can to fix the issues. I was glad to hear that after the next patch which they said will be out in the next 7 days or so that the teams will take a holiday break and then come back with a big patch in January and another in February. What they will be able to fix is beyond me. I think it will be some performance optimizations, but most if it will be all the bugs and such.

I do wonder if stuff like the magically appearing police will be something they fix. It is kind of weird to pull off a crime and police magically appear around you.
 

YeulEmeralda

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Funniest thing was the girl at the beginning pronounce CD Projekt as "CD Project."

They probably give up on that long ago but in the conference devs still use correct name.


Here in the Netherlands when we found a company we make sure to pick a name the average American can pronounce. In fact we use as little of our obscure language as possible.
 

Northeastmonk

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That's not true.

Why would investors be happy about a poorly made game where there's going to be tons of refunds? How are they going to make money from a lousy product?
That's true. It just all boils down to their share. I realize that's the type of market video games are. Someone funds the other guy. I watch enough Shark Tank to see that. They're happy to make money. I mean, they're being told everything. They aren't sure what goes on, so they have to listen to the developer instead of making decisions along the way.

Its all about a business making money to the big guys at the top. I probably worded that wrong, but I've heard from countless people over the years about the clueless people at the top. That's fine, it shouldn't matter when CDPR is involved. CDPR should know better. I just don't expect much when the $$$ sign is talked about. We all see bullshots and the CGI trailers that lure people in to buy games. This was the same thing. Its like they all have that mentality because everyone talks about how a game is degraded after it launches. They need to hype people up to get the preorder. No one says "that's wrong" or "the gamer will figure this out"

Its like we are all just a bunch of customers who pay $59.99 USD or whatever price you paid. That's it. Locked and loaded. So yeah, they probably don't actually give two shits about us.
 
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GrayFoxPL

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Never heard anything else, people sound words out as they appear when they aren't familiar with foreign pronunciations

Nah, it's ok, it means the same. They probably don't care anymore or don't count on correct pronunciation. Good for business I guess. Though it's worth to note that even at this conference at 0.23 sec dude properly introduced himself as joint CEO of "CD Projekt."
 

TheGejsza

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so... CDPR just confiremd that they do not have any deal with Sony or MS regarding refunds. What a bunch of fucks. And I was huge fan of them since Witcher 1...
 

harmny

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That's not true.

Why would investors be happy about a poorly made game where there's going to be tons of refunds? How are they going to make money from a lousy product?

i think you are overestimating the number of refunds to be honest. performance is a problem. reception in the media and the vocal people on the internet is a problem. sales are not a problem. if sales were driven by reddit gaf and twitter cod and fifa would be dead franchises instead of selling millions each year. investors probably saw 8 million preorders which can mean 15 or 20 million copies by the end of the year and those are really good numbers.

i know people that are playing the game right now on last gen consoles. people that are casual gamers and just play gta cod and fifa and they really love it. they don't really care about performance, graphics, pop in, bugs, or being able to talk about life while you follow an npc for hours to see if they have a work/life cycle and sit on every chair.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
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so... CDPR just confiremd that they do not have any deal with Sony or MS regarding refunds. What a bunch of fucks. And I was huge fan of them since Witcher 1...
The company grew... it is not the same small developer anymore.
 

Moogle11

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The reason why third party games seem more monetized (which I believe is true) is because the business model is distinct from console makers. Console makers make royalty fees, sub plan revenue, microtrans and digital sale cuts etc..... They can coast.

As for whether that means its a quick buck or not depends on the company. Some companies go for microtrans heavy models, some prefer just selling the game.

Among the biggest selling games are all third party, which are games that have high production values, sell a ton of copies, and microtrans model is really just bonus because they sell 20+ million copies anyway...... GTA (100 million copies), FIFA, COD, Skyrim/Fallout.

I know, and that's what I was saying. I mostly stick with console games and Sony, Nintendo and MS first party games are a sizeable majority of what I play. The huge selling third party games like CoD, GTA etc. generally don't appeal to me at all. Just some rare exceptions like Witcher 3, Cyberpunk Skyrim, RDR etc. that I enjoy a lot. But even those end up below exclusives on my GOTY/GOTG list.

As you note, and I said before, the console makers want to sell hardware and get people locked into their ecosystems, paying for their subscription services, buying games in their digital stores so they get the royalties and so on. Thus they'll fund ambitious games, be fine with multiple delays until they're polished and so on as they need those system-seller games that wow people and get them to shell out for their console. The third parties have nothing to care about but making the profit margin on every game as large as possible and that just leads to business and design decisions that lead to less polished games as things release too early to get investors their returns sooner, heavy monetization to generate more revenue etc.

Just not my cup of tea usually, so I spend way more time on console first-party games than anything else and enjoy gaming more for it. To each their own and all that jazz of course.
 
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GrayFoxPL

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Here in the Netherlands when we found a company we make sure to pick a name the average American can pronounce. In fact we use as little of our obscure language as possible.

CD Projekt probably never dreamed of going worldwide anyway. The name itself is ancient. Noting the crossing from floppy diskettes to CD.
 

vpance

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I know it's been said before, but they had to have known this was going to be a Category 5 Shitstorm releasing the game in the state it's in for last gen consoles. I get that they wanted to release it for the holidays, while we're in that awkward period between last and next gen consoles to maximize profit. But this is one of my biggest pet peeves. I absolutely hate Short Term Corporate Thinking. Make lots of money now, deal with the consequences later. This is the mentality of Management, while the development team is like "What? Are you serious? Holy fuck no, this is gonna be bad." All that crunch time and insane amount of hours they put into this game, and management is like "Release the game now. Make big money! *takes a drag out of his cig*"

Would it have been so bad if by October they were life "Hey look guys. Covid really fucked us, and this game ain't gonna be ready til mid-late 2021. We're really sorry, but we're not giving you an undercooked game." I mean the Covid defense is a legit and perfectly understandable situation.

They caved to investor pressure, and greed. They desperately wanted those short term gains.

If they were actual long term thinkers they could have catapulted themselves into a higher tier of developers, with a proper release of the game. Even if it meant more delays.

I imagine their lifetime sales forecast will have to be cut in half.
 
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Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
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They caved to investor pressure, and greed. They desperately wanted those short term gains.

If they were actual long term thinkers they could have catapulted themselves into a higher tier of developers, with a proper release of the game. Even if it meant more delays.

I imagine their lifetime sales forecast will have to be cut in half.

I doubt it will be 50%, but they should expect a significant reduction in lifetime sales and, possibly worse, a huge hit to their reputation. Sad to see it. I'm going to continue enjoying the game on PC, where it's pretty awesome, but I hope this ends up being a lesson to other developers.
 

GeorgPrime

Bonus Member
Jan 9, 2020
3,173
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No way dude.

Investing is a way to make cash.

My portfolio has made a killing since labour day. One of my companies even got bought out and the stock went up $20. Only had 500 shares so that wasnt a million bucks. But it was a $10,000 swing ($13,000 cdn).

Like i said i have just experienced Investors who have no fucking clue what they are doing ;) There are a shitton of unexprienced Investors since some got rich with Bitcoin.

I still got shares from my old company. Maybe they will be succesful after Covid-19 then i can earn some money.
 
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