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Chants of 'equal pay' accompany USWNT win

oagboghi2

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He signed a four year deal with OKC. He was supposed to be with them through the 21-22 season. Then last week he told them he wanted out of that four year contract. He completely broke the four year deal. He did NOT complete his contract. You're flat wrong.

Melvin Gordon is right now doing the same thing. He has a contract. He wants a new one. He will probably get it.

He was traded to OKC in 2017 and would have been a free agent. He could have sat out the 2017-2018 and entered FA but he didn't. He signed a new contract okc when he was traded and completed it terms, and then signed the 4 year deal last year.

Did you think the contract he signed with OKC last year was his first contract with them, despite playing on that same team the previous season?
 
Jun 26, 2018
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I don't think the USWNT mediation will be as favorable as you think Connor.
Perhaps. But as it seems, with the media pressure and the USSF willing to mediate, that the women are in the more advantageous position. I think it was very smart for them to sign the CBA and keep playing while filing the lawsuit. It will be interesting to see.
 

switchback27

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He was traded to OKC in 2017 and would have been a free agent. He could have sat out the 2017-2018 and entered FA but he didn't. He signed a new contract okc when he was traded and completed it terms, and then signed the 4 year deal last year.

Did you think the contract he signed with OKC last year was his first contract with them, despite playing on that same team the previous season?
Don't think that was Connor's point. Connor was arguing that after PG signed the contract last year with the Thunder, he piped up about wanting to be traded and the team acquiesced, although he does agree with my point that voicing a trade demand is NOT the same as breaking a contract.
 
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switchback27

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Perhaps. But as it seems, with the media pressure and the USSF willing to mediate, that the women are in the more advantageous position. I think it was very smart for them to sign the CBA and keep playing while filing the lawsuit. It will be interesting to see.
True, we shall have to see. But the counterpoint is that if the women are willing to reap the fruits of the current CBA and then all of a sudden demand a new one, the opposition may be less inclined to give concessions because of the fear that this new CBA might also just end up being "ripped up" by public sentiment.
 
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Jun 26, 2018
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Did you think the contract he signed with OKC last year was his first contract with them, despite playing on that same team the previous season?
Technically, it was. When you acquire a player in a trade, you acquire them under the contract terms of the previous team. OKC was paying off the deal George had with Indiana. He only signed one contract with OKC. Then a year later, demanded a trade.
 

NickFire

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He signed a four year deal with OKC. He was supposed to be with them through the 21-22 season. Then last week he told them he wanted out of that four year contract. He completely broke the four year deal. He did NOT complete his contract. You're flat wrong.

Melvin Gordon is right now doing the same thing. He has a contract. He wants a new one. He will probably get it.

Here's another difference. PG arranged for a trade in secrecy without shitting on his employer, and his employer reaped a windfall of 1st round picks. Everyone is now talking what a beast of a team the Clippers will be, and looking forward to them beating the Lakers (Lebron really). With respect to the person who dropped a false narrative of sexism while shitting on the country, today's news cycle is about people drawing mean things on posters of her, and the NYPD's decision to make subway crime an actual concern (as long as the crime is vandalizing a poster). Despite all her media attention, I have not a single clue who she will play for next, what her teammates are doing next, etc. All these articles and tv appearances, and the entire focus is sexism, her hate for Trump, why she will not salute the flag, etc.

Long story short - PG has actually caused interest in his league by what he did from people who will be around in 1.5 years, and did it in a very respectful way. She has caused interest in her personally from people who simply hate one man / country, while giving 1/2 the country reason to go from "I don't really care" to "I really don't like."
 
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Jun 26, 2018
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PG arranged for a trade in secrecy without shitting on his employer, and his employer reaped a windfall of 1st round picks.
Well, the fans sure don't see it that way. Now with Westbrook demanding a trade, you have a team that is forced to rebuild. This team was completely blindsided by this. But at the end of the day, it's the nature of the beast. This has been going on for a long time.

I just found out that Sandy Kofax and Don Drysdale threatened to not play over contract issues in the 60's. Those guys are f'n American heroes. And do you remember Eric Dickerson holding out? That was crazy stuff.
 

oagboghi2

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Don't think that was Connor's point. Connor was arguing that after PG signed the contract last year with the Thunder, he piped up about wanting to be traded and the team acquiesced, although he does agree with my point that voicing a trade demand is NOT the same as breaking a contract.
Fair enough. I misunderstood his point
 

NickFire

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Well, the fans sure don't see it that way. Now with Westbrook demanding a trade, you have a team that is forced to rebuild. This team was completely blindsided by this. But at the end of the day, it's the nature of the beast. This has been going on for a long time.

I just found out that Sandy Kofax and Don Drysdale threatened to not play over contract issues in the 60's. Those guys are f'n American heroes. And do you remember Eric Dickerson holding out? That was crazy stuff.
Just because the fans of his former team are mad he left does not change anything I wrote. He has created interest in his new team and the league overall, while she has created interest in her personal hatred by like minded people, while turning 1/2 of sports fans away from interest in her team.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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He has created interest in his new team and the league overall, while she has created interest in her personal hatred by like minded people, while turning 1/2 of sports fans away from interest in her team.
Yeah, people hate those women.

 

NickFire

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Yeah, people hate those women.

Deflection level 25 reached.

Yeah, I fully admit that she has drawn huge interest by people who love her because she hates Trump / disrespects the US. But how does that grow the sport enough to overcome lost potential interest by her disdain for the people who think the US is great / voted for Trump? Do you really, honestly, genuinely believe that the people who currently love her hatred (but barely watched sports the last 2 years) will in large measure spend the next 3 years buying season tickets, watching almost every game she is in on TV if not in person, pay $15 six times a game for beer at her games, or giving two shits about her if she is not disrespecting the flag / talking about Orange Man Bad? You know better, and you know who else sells a shit ton of jersey's? CK, a former player who helped bring ratings for the league down until people stopped giving a shit about what he had to say. Sells tons of jerseys, but not a singe ticket, advertiser slot, or $15 beer was sold because of him after he voided his last contract. These people don't grow the sport. They grow a brand based on hatred.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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But how does that grow the sport enough to overcome lost potential interest by her disdain for the people who think the US is great / voted for Trump?
I don't think that number of people is nearly as big as you think it is. Having the best selling soccer jersey of all time, men or women, is a great sign on their popularity. Even the Women's Cup final garnered more TV viewers than the men. This team is crazy popular.

 

CDiggity

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The problem I see, is that this is proving the thought that I had that their recent popularity is based on "MURICA FUCK YEAH" and not the actual players.
 

NickFire

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I don't think that number of people is nearly as big as you think it is. Having the best selling soccer jersey of all time, men or women, is a great sign on their popularity. Even the Women's Cup final garnered more TV viewers than the men. This team is crazy popular.

Yes it is a great sign of her popularity. Huge sign actually. So why dodge the point about there being a huge difference between growing a brand based on hatred, and growing a sport? Is it because you don't want to admit that she is more popular for her hatred / identity politics than for what she does for a living? Is that why everyone loves her except a couple guys here (on a video game forum as you pointed out), but you won't even look at thousands of comments on websites visited by passionate sports fans are 95% against her?

Also:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2661838-colin-kaepernick-has-49ers-top-selling-jersey-since-national-anthem-protest
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/1/16074976/nfl-colin-kaepernick-anthem-protest-jersey-sales

Huge jersey sales? How many tickets has he sold the past two years though?
 
Jun 26, 2018
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So why dodge the point about there being a huge difference between growing a brand based on hatred, and growing a sport?
Because I think it's a moot point. The only way you can somewhat quantify this sentiment is by pointing to comments on a message board. That's not objective. It's crazy talk.

As far as Kaepernick goes, he does have immense popularity and black people see a redeeming quality in him. I certainly do not agree with his viewpoint but Nike is certainly able to capitalize on it. So I'm not sure what your point is there.
 

mekes

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Long time footy fan, I watched a few games and I’ll just say it as I thought it at the time. The women’s game is more technical than it was 4 years back but it still has a long long way to go. It’s quite irritating to watch the game played with such an obvious lack of power and speed.

Handing out equal pay would be a joke because they don’t have the numbers to support such a stake. Nearly all that were interested in the tournament will forget these players exist until 4 years later. Megan knows that, so she knows this was her only time to make a claim for something she doesn’t deserve, Who is watching her play over the course of a season? Who has a Rapinoe shirt in her clubs colours? Who travels around the country to watch her play? Who recognises her around the world on a week by week basis? I’m surprised she alluded to as much as she did, as it works directly against her claims for pay parity.

You’ve got to grow the game from a grassroots level. Build up the game in numbers, establish fan bases, receive media attention, get a T.V deal. Get some history in your game. It takes time and effort. Not quick demands.
 
Dec 15, 2011
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What numbers would be lacking in their favor?
This has been answered, repeatedly, earlier in this thread.
Also: why have you chosen to ignore the many valid questions in the [full] post you chose quote and then edit down?

Why would someone ignore and remove someone else's valid questions and, instead of addressing a single thing they said, ask another question by way of response?
What sort of person would engage on that insincere level and seriously expect their question to be answered when they show such disregard for anyone else's questions?

Fortunately for you, your cherry-picking methods, and your fondness for not answering questions that others pose, mine are all rhetorical questions.

So that just leaves you to be dismissive and retort along the lines of "BuT No CoHeReNt ArGuMeNt!!".
Because that's really worked out so well for you in the past.

:messenger_blowing_kiss:
 
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mekes

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What numbers would be lacking in their favor?
Not meaning to be super blunt, but in my honest opinion, the number of passionate fans who follow these players throughout the weeks and years,

International football pales in comparison to club football. You end up feeling that other than the hardcore travelling fans, fans in general don’t care too much until it’s tournament time. The male players arrive at international tournaments already established superstars. Rival fans will know how many goals they banged in throughout the season, which player can beat a player, who the free kick taker is. They come in with big reputations thanks to huge sponsorship and broadcast deals, due to the amount of viewers the players have on a week by week basis of a 9 month yearly season.

The only female player I knew of was the Brazilian player Marta, prior to this World Cup. I don’t even know if she still plays. I’d read that Alex Morgan was a big deal in America but I didn’t even know America had won a World Cup. I was surprised to find that out. You learn loads about players by following a team weekly, but the female game isn’t set up for that yet due to a general lack of interest from the public. That’s why I think it needs a lot of time and investment into the grassroots level, because if equal pay is needed, then equal investment into the growth of the game should be a higher priority.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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Not meaning to be super blunt, but in my honest opinion, the number of passionate fans who follow these players throughout the weeks and years,
Nobody is making the claim that they should be paid club wages. This is purely about the USWNT and the USMNT respectively. If the women profit more than the men, with ticket sales, etc. shouldn't they be paid at least the same?
 
Dec 15, 2011
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1.
So factual information only matters if it's uttered by a particular person.
Your list of arbitrary reasons to dismiss what someone says just keeps on growing, doesn't it?

2.
Doubling down on name-calling and denial after you've been shown to be in denial and investing more time in name-calling is not a smart play.
3.
So that just leaves you to be dismissive and retort along the lines of "BuT No CoHeReNt ArGuMeNt!!".
Because that's really worked out so well for you in the past.
 

Boss Mog

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cryptoadam

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Nobody is making the claim that they should be paid club wages. This is purely about the USWNT and the USMNT respectively. If the women profit more than the men, with ticket sales, etc. shouldn't they be paid at least the same?
Are the women willing to give up their guranteed salaries, because last I heard they aren't.

What the women should be asking for is not equal pay, is equal share of the revenues generated. I think the one area that they have a case is for sponsership and TV revenues. So they should negotiate for an equal split of those revenues that the men get, or since there is a claim that they are so popular go for the jugular and ask for a greater share. I have no issue with supporting the USWNT in getting a higher % of revenues if they bring in a higher % of revenues then the men.

Where I don't agree with them is with the funds from FIFA that the USSF distributes. Sorry but on that issue the women don't have a leg to stand on. US WC makes 6 billion compared to the womens 130 or so million. They already get a bigger share of that purse, just their purse is smaller. So barking up the tree that FIFA just pays the money but USSF distributes it doesn't work for me. Thats just straight up asking the men to subsidize their game because Womens WC is not as popular as the mens.

But first they have to give up their guranteed salaries or any other $$$ that USSF may pay for them to play in the NWSL so it is actually "equal pay".
 

finowns

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Are the women willing to give up their guranteed salaries, because last I heard they aren't.

What the women should be asking for is not equal pay, is equal share of the revenues generated. I think the one area that they have a case is for sponsership and TV revenues. So they should negotiate for an equal split of those revenues that the men get, or since there is a claim that they are so popular go for the jugular and ask for a greater share. I have no issue with supporting the USWNT in getting a higher % of revenues if they bring in a higher % of revenues then the men.

Where I don't agree with them is with the funds from FIFA that the USSF distributes. Sorry but on that issue the women don't have a leg to stand on. US WC makes 6 billion compared to the womens 130 or so million. They already get a bigger share of that purse, just their purse is smaller.
So barking up the tree that FIFA just pays the money but USSF distributes it doesn't work for me. Thats just straight up asking the men to subsidize their game because Womens WC is not as popular as the mens.

But first they have to give up their guranteed salaries or any other $$$ that USSF may pay for them to play in the NWSL so it is actually "equal pay".
He's heard this argument about 40 times, I don't think he cares. It's kind of impressive.
 

mekes

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Nobody is making the claim that they should be paid club wages. This is purely about the USWNT and the USMNT respectively. If the women profit more than the men, with ticket sales, etc. shouldn't they be paid at least the same?
That wasn’t really the point. The point was that the men are weekly superstars filling up pages in the papers and sporting websites, dedicated popular fan channels on YouTube. Advertisement deals based off of their weekly exploits, the faces of Nike and Adidas with marketing teams behind them, They go into the international scene and bring the exposure and therefor, the money.

I’m all for the women achieving equal pay, but not just because it is not equal. The women’s sport needs money put into the structure, and then the money should eventually trickle down as it always does. And that’s really how it always has been in the history of football. But it can’t be done without passionate fans.
 
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He's heard this argument about 40 times, I don't think he cares. It's kind of impressive.
I have addressed this argument. Several times. The USNMT only got $1.5m from FIFA for WC preparation. They got NOTHING from the payout. Yet they still made more than the women who won two consecutive WC's.

So why is the FIFA money relevant?
 

cryptoadam

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How is that relevant when the men didn't even get a payout from the WC, yet still earned more?
I can't check the articles posted since they are paywalled, but from what I remember the men get paid bonuses win or lose. OTOH the women get paid 100K guranteed even if they don't step on the pitch. But I would have to see the breakdown of how the bonuses were paid out from FIFA.

I did say I support the women negotiating a better deal of % of Revenue for sponsership/TV deals/Merchandising. But negotiated through the CBA not litigated through the courts. I would actually even support them asking for more if they bring in more revenue then the men.

But anyways do you agree that with this demand the women should forfeit their guranteed contracts? Because the men do not have guranteed contracts.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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But anyways do you agree that with this demand the women should forfeit their guranteed contracts?
I would say that would be a fair trade off for similar pay in a season. The women would probably prefer a guaranteed bonus like the men though too in that case. Bonuses which are apart from the FIFA payout. These are bonuses paid by the USSF.

The lawsuit stated that if the UWWNT and USMNT each played and won 20 exhibition games, the women would earn a maximum of $99,000 for the season ($4,950 per game) while the men would earn $263,320 ($13,166 per game). The men get a $5,000 bonus per game played, while the women’s pay is guaranteed whether they play or not, but lower.

So, prior to 2017, the women were getting paid less than half what the men were getting for regular games.

 
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Oct 26, 2018
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I would say that would be a fair trade off for similar pay in a season. The women would probably prefer a guaranteed bonus like the men though too in that case. Bonuses which are apart from the FIFA payout. These are bonuses paid by the USSF.

The lawsuit stated that if the UWWNT and USMNT each played and won 20 exhibition games, the women would earn a maximum of $99,000 for the season ($4,950 per game) while the men would earn $263,320 ($13,166 per game). The men get a $5,000 bonus per game played, while the women’s pay is guaranteed whether they play or not, but lower.

So, prior to 2017, the women were getting paid less than half what the men were getting for regular games.

As as many of us have said, if the ladies want big bucks, then do a good deal like the guys. It's their problem they had their own union reps forge ahead with the current contract years ago.

So big deal. Just ask for a big pay hike at next contract renewal. And don't act like 10 year olds. Paul George kept his whole trade deal secret to the last hour and it worked. He wasn't hooting and hollaring all night.

You don't have to cry like a toddler to get a good sports contract. As long as the management team has the money, the athlete proves they are worth it, big contracts are given out all the time.

And since they seem to be negotiating as a team, then get their own union rep to propose mandatory revenue % cuts like the mens pro leagues do.

If the women are too lazy to come up with their own fancy terms, just copy what mens leagues get and adjust the terms a bit so it fits the womens national team...... revenue %, veteran status, min salaries, pension % and all the bells and whistles. An every day joe can probably Google what union terms mens pro leagues get and see what's out kind of clauses are out there that people in normal jobs don't get.

Not hard.
 
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DeepEnigma

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As as many of us have said, if the ladies want big bucks, then do a good deal like the guys. It's their problem they had their own union reps forge ahead with the current contract years ago.

So big deal. Just ask for a big pay hike at next contract renewal. And don't act like 10 year olds. Paul George kept his whole trade deal secret to the last hour and it worked. He wasn't hooting and hollaring all night.

You don't have to cry like a toddler to get a good sports contract. As long as the management team has the money, the athlete proves they are worth it, big contracts are given out all the time.

And since they seem to be negotiating as a team, then get their own union rep to propose mandatory revenue % cuts like the mens pro leagues do.

If the women are too lazy to come up with their own fancy terms, just copy what mens leagues get and adjust the terms a bit so it fits the womens national team...... revenue %, veteran status, min salaries, pension % and all the bells and whistles. An every day joe can probably Google what union terms mens pro leagues get and see what's out kind of clauses are out there that people in normal jobs don't get.

Not hard.
They want guaranteed pay though. Something the men don’t get.

Their cake and eat it too, selfish shit.
 
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finowns

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I have addressed this argument. Several times. The USNMT only got $1.5m from FIFA for WC preparation. They got NOTHING from the payout. Yet they still made more than the women who won two consecutive WC's.

So why is the FIFA money relevant?
No idea I imagine there's a myriad of variables that determine who gets what: perhaps the men's team has a better negotiator, maybe they benefit from playing the most popular sport in the world, men's soccer, maybe the qualifying games are more numerous than the women's, maybe the US is more interested in men's soccer because they see exponential growth if they can get a championship US men's team and thus invest in it more, maybe it's not worth the risk to the men unless they get a certain amount of money, etc. etc. That said I reject entirely your assertation that this is some type of misogyny conspiracy; unless you show some evidence supporting the claim. The real question is why are we comparing the men's and women's teams at all?
 
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Shmunter

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Because like just about every job in life (aside from minimum wage floors), wages and salary are dependent on a few things:

1. Negotiation power of employee
2. Internally set (non-union) wage range for each job (if there is one)
3. Union set wage range or some kind of player wage/revenue sharing like NBA players getting something like 50%(?) of league revenue

If the women want more money, then do a deal with the organizers or management like everyone else does. How is that every mens pro player can negotiate contracts, but women can't?

Why is it that hard? If they are that valuable, owners and organizers will cave in and pay what they want..... and their current starting request is "equal pay"
Sports pay is not gender dependent. They are completely related to marketability. Men in the same sport also get paid differently depending on skill and star power. Men’s sports in general are more marketable so men in general get paid more.

People watching sports want to see top level performance. Men on average are physically faster & stronger hence the top performers within sport are men.

There’s nothing that can be done about this except for forcing an equality of outcomes. E.g. subsidised women’s sport to make up for lack of marketability. But business aren’t charities. Activists should start a fund and donate their money if they feel so strongly about it.

Office work is different.
 
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Saruhashi

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Not true. The women got better tv ratings.
Compared to what? You couldn't make a more nebulous statement if you tried.

Worldwide TV ratings? USA only TV ratings?

If it's only USA TV ratings then is that only for US matches or just a general better rating overall?
As in would, say, England v Norway women's match get a better rating than England vs Sweden men's? Worldwide? In the US?

Are the teams being paid based on their worldwide audience or their localized audience only?
Similarly, are the teams being paid based on the global audience for their entire tournament or just the audience for their individual matches?

If I play a small role in a tournament that makes $4.6 billion in revenues and someone else plays a large role in a tournament that only makes $131 million in revenues then how to we determine which has a higher value?

The men's world cup rakes in something like 35 times more than the women's. I would guess that, worldwide, even the men's qualifying tournaments generate a fair chunk of cash.

You are saying though that in one very specific region Team X gets more viewers than Team Y therefore they deserve the same pay.
So you are just disregarding global revenues entirely?
 

Saruhashi

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Is that right? I find that incredibly hard to believe in the world of pro sports. But if this is indeed true, reverse women and men in my statement and I’ll get my coat.
It's right if you are very, very, specific about certain things.

Say you worked in a sales job where you have to deal with 5 different regions. You company pays out based on the success of all 5 regions.
Your global revenues are better than your coworker in 4 out of 5 regions.
That 5th region where they are better than you also happens to be where the office is located.

Imagine your colleague is literally saying they should be paid the same as you because they got better sales than you.
Ignoring the global sales, because that's inconvenient for them, and saying "well in our company's hometown I earn more so i should get paid more".

FIFA shares the revenues from the World Cup on a worldwide basis. Even clubs that have player participating in the WC get paid something like 2k per player per day that the player is participating.

So even in a situation where the USA does not qualify there is still some kind of revenue payout from the qualifying stages (though this may come from CONCACAF rather than FIFA, it's not clear).
 
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Saruhashi

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I have addressed this argument. Several times. The USNMT only got $1.5m from FIFA for WC preparation. They got NOTHING from the payout. Yet they still made more than the women who won two consecutive WC's.

So why is the FIFA money relevant?
Surely there has to be some philosophy of "investment" in the men's team in order to achieve future FIFA payouts then?

Any money that the men's team are making between now and the 2022 WC is really an investment in the future of the national team, no?
Especially in a nation where many of your top players could potentially be poached by other nations if they have a grandparent etc from those countries?

So, from the men's US perspective, they are trying to build a squad and put together a team that can potentially go toe to toe with the likes of Ronaldo and Messi and Neymar on the world stage BUT we are only going to pay them the same as the women who's biggest challenge will be beating a team of 15 year old boys?
 
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Jon Neu

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Except that the women sell more jerseys, more tickets and were more profitable. You almost had a good point.
More jerseys than the nobodys of the USA team? Possible.

More tickets? Well, I have seen how tickets are literally free or super cheap for the women teams so they can fill the stadiums. I would not be surprised if that's the case with the FUSA Team.

More profitable? Simply not true. The USA team can participate in the WC, which is the most important event in Sports. The FUSA team is just the star of a running joke.

When you and them begin to realize that you can't compare the female WC with the men WC, then maybe we could start a serious conversation.
 
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