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[Brian_FETO]

That "apology" was fucking garbage. It might have happened but it's probably your fault or something. Great. Nailed it, David.

Im not defending him or calling her a liar... But what? he literally said 'I'm very sorry if I upset her."

He also vehemently insists that she's misremembering

 

[Zen Aku]

Love Mr. Show and Arrested Development but holy goddamn is that a textbook non-apology. Extremely gross and bad look.

Im not defending him or calling her a liar... But what? he literally said 'I'm truly sorry, if I hurt her. It was never my intention to do that.'

I don't think you know what a textbook non-apology is.

 

[cartographer]

Im not defending him or calling her a liar... But what? he literally said 'I'm very sorry if I upset her."

The "if I upset her" line is sort of a textbook deflection when apologizing though. It's not actually apologizing for your actions, it's apologizing for the possibility a person reacted to your actions in a certain way.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Im not defending him or calling her a liar... But what? he literally said 'I'm very sorry if I upset her."

He said "if", said he doesn't remember it, and alluded to a movie about different people remembering the same event differently. He said that she imagined it basically.

 

[ebullientprism]

Man, it's nuts to me how people don't realize that even if the accusation is exaggerated or false (doesn't seem to be the case here), how much better you look if you just own up to it and acknowledge fault?

I've legitimately made jokes towards people that were, in retrospect, offensive, yet they politely didn't show offense or tell me about it. Once I realized I went and apologized and told them I realized my mistake, and specifically that I realized why it was a mistake. Does it really make up for what I did? No, but Jesus Christ, that's how you apologize.

At some point we have to all recognize that we've all done regretful shit in our past. None of us are perfect or free from criticism. But it's on ourselves to own that shit. To recognize the mistake and point out how we're going to fix it.

Own up to something that never happened and you never did? LOL Seriously?

 

[Dan-o]

Damn, I have never seen the film, so I didn't know the meaning of #Rashomon.

Rashomon is great. I love it. It's my most-watched Kurosawa.

As for Cross' comments... what an idiot. His apology is garbage.

 

[gohepcat]

I mean.... It seems completely out of character for him right?


How exactly do you apologise for something that you think you did not do without calling the other person a liar?

Put yourself in that theoretical situation. Seriously.

I think my response would be something similar to that.

 

[Mael]

The "if I upset her" line is sort of a textbook deflection when apologizing though. It's not actually apologizing for your actions, it's apologizing for the possibility a person reacted to your actions in a certain way.

It can be used correctly like "If I upset her, it wasn't my intention and I didn't know at the time. Regardless I apologize and wlll try to do better"
Of course it is NEVER used that way.

 

[pigeon]

I mean.... It seems completely out of character for him right?


How exactly do you apologise for something that you think you did not do without calling the other person a liar?

Put yourself in that theoretical situation. Seriously.

I think my response would be something similar to that.

If I really believed I didn’t do something I wouldn’t apologize for it.

So why is he apologizing for this?

 

[Brian_FETO]

I mean.... It seems completely out of character for him right?


How exactly do you apologise for something that you think you did not do without calling the other person a liar?

Put yourself in that theoretical situation. Seriously.

I think my response would be something similar to that.

"I don't remember that at all, but if Ms. Yi was upset by an interaction we had where I acted ignorant and inappropriate, I'm deeply sorry. That's not who I am and I am disappointed in myself for not realizing at the time how hurtful dumb comments might have been"

Anything besides "maybe the real problem is we're BOTH misremembering! yeah! definitely not calling you a liar though."

 

[Squirrel Killer]

He goes all the way back to Rashmon instead the more known The Usual Suspects and Kaiser Soze?

Well... it isn't called The Usual Suspects Effect.

 

[cartographer]

I mean.... It seems completely out of character for him right?


How exactly do you apologise for something that you think you did not do without calling the other person a liar?

Put yourself in that theoretical situation. Seriously.

I think my response would be something similar to that.

He used / uses the N word in his some of his bits, so I don't think completely out of character is accurate.

 

[Zen Aku]

The "if I upset her" line is sort of a textbook deflection when apologizing though. It's not actually apologizing for your actions, it's apologizing for the possibility a person reacted to your actions in a certain way.

But he doesn't believe he did. He's giving her the benefit of the doubt, that if he did, then he apologized for whatever he said. So to you guys its either.

"You know what? I don't remember that but I'll admit I did it anyway and I'm sorry"

or

"Nah, I don't remember that so I'm not going to apologize for anything."

Both are worse than what he said. If he truly does not remember it happening but still willing to apologize if he offended her that night. Then honestly that's probably the best apology he could make at the moment.

Him fully admitting he did something wrong even though he has no recollection of it wouldn't make it look good on him. Also not apologizing and calling her a liar would also be worse. If I was in his situation and know or cant recall doing something similar I would write something similar. You're not going to admit to any wrongdoing but you're willing to apologize if it did happened.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

He used / uses the N word in his some of his bits, so I don't think completely out of character is accurate.

Does he call a black person the n-word or is he implicitly playing a character that is racist? I haven't seen all his standup but I'm fairly confident that if he uses the word it's from a perspective that is not a genuine expression of his personal hatred for black people.

 

[Puddington]

David Cross is probably kinda racist, but most people are in my experience. And when I say most people, I mean Charlene Yi has probably heard a variation of those jokes a thousand times throughout her life and only remembers Cross doing it because it's not every day a celebrity throws those tired ass ethnic stereotype jokes in your face.

That said, I'm going to take David Cross' side just because I find him to be the funnier person generally. So shame on him for this instance of not being more original with his racist material.

 

[parrotbeak]

This is very disappointing. Even if he didn't remember, he could have acknowledged that it was a possibility. Comedy is a creative act. We've grown up with racism, sexism and homophobia ingrained in us. I occasionally make jokes that I realize as soon as they come out that the premise is sexist or homophobic. I'm sure I've done it without catching myself, especially 10 years ago.

 

[Permanently A]

This is tough... David Cross comes off as genuine person. I hope it was a Tobias level misunderstanding somehow but obviously that's pretty unlikely. If he did do it he should have just apologized. If he didn't I hope there's a reasonable explanation.

 

[pigeon]

TBH I'm really not a whole fan of the "anything but Occam's razor" defense.

Racism that Asian Americans face is less brutal, but because of that also more likely to be dismissed, ignored, or seen as acceptable.



I don't really think being on drugs excuses your behavior. I've been under the influence and on illicit substances multiple times and somehow saying racist things towards other people didn't magically manifest.

Yeah. I’ve had perfectly nice coworkers or acquaintances say mildly racist things to me many times. That “stereotypical Asian accent” thing doesn’t surprise me at all any more. Happens all the time.

People legit don’t think Asian jokes are racist to Asian people.

 

[cartographer]

Does he call a black person the n-word or is he implicitly playing a character that is racist? I haven't seen all his standup but I'm fairly confident that if he uses the word it's from a perspective that is not a genuine expression of his personal hatred for black people.

I'm not really of the view that's there's much of a difference. If you think it's funny enough to say in either of those contexts, it's not really a stretch for him to think it's funny to say what Yi remembers he said.

 

[Zen Aku]

This is very disappointing. Even if he didn't remember, he could have acknowledged that it was a possibility. Comedy is a creative act. We've grown up with racism, sexism and homophobia ingrained in us. I occasionally make jokes that I realize as soon as they come out that the premise is sexist or homophobic. I'm sure I've done it without catching myself, especially 10 years ago.

Read his response again. He did give her the benefit of the doubt that if it did truly happen. He is sorry that he did that to her.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

I don't really think being on drugs excuses your behavior. I've been under the influence and on illicit substances multiple times and somehow saying racist things towards other people didn't magically manifest.

Or they did and those people just haven't called you out on twitter yet.

 

[parrotbeak]

Read his response again. He did give her the benefit of the doubt that if it did truly happen. He is sorry that he did that to her.

And then went on to say maybe they both misremember and different perspectives. And he can't believe he has to say he's not a racist.

Dude, everyone has racist assumptions. It's in our culture. We can't get better without admitting that.

 

[Foggy]

What any of us would do doesn't matter. Unless you are suggesting because he didn't apologise well we should assume it went down in the worst way.

The point of what I said wasn't a "what would you do" hypothetical. It's saying that if you make a racist joke and that even if you project it as clearly as possible, if someone says later they were hurt by it, you should probably apologize. It's pretty basic.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

So, diet racist?

There isn't a significant difference between ironic racism and real racism to the target.

Can someone link his history with the N word?

There's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8J7looNr2E

For context, it's a one-off shock value thing within the routine, after that point he goes on to rant against a totally unrelated subject (if I remember correctly).

 

[Zen Aku]

And then went on to say maybe they both misremember and different perspectives. And he can't believe he has to say he's not a racist.

Dude, everyone has racist assumptions. It's in our culture. We can't get better without admitting that.

Ummm thats how the real world works. People do misremember things, they do have different perspectives on how things played out. He privately contacted to talk. He did as much as possible from his position to not completely dismiss her claim and also was willing to apologize if he hurt her AND reached out and talk to her.

From where he's standing, I can't see much more that he can do. There is a different between having racist assumptions (which everyone has to some extent) and going out there and broadcast all your assumptions on to the world. While he may have some racist assumptions, him pointing out that he believe himself to not be an outward racist is perfectly fine as a way for him to defend himself.

*disclaimer: I never watched any of his shows or stand up. Pretty sure the only thing I have seen him in is those chipmunks movies.

 

[Brian_FETO]

Ummm thats how the real world works. People do misremember things, they do have different perspectives on how things played out. He privately contacted to talk. He did as much as possible from his position to not completely dismiss her claim and also was willing to apologize if he hurt her AND reached out and talk to her.

From where he's standing, I can't see much more that he can do. There is a different between having racist assumptions (which everyone has to some extent) and going out there and broadcast all your assumptions on to the world. While he may have some racist assumptions, him pointing out that he believe himself to not be an outward racist is perfectly fine as a way for him to defend himself.

*disclaimer: I never watched any of his shows or stand up. Pretty sure the only thing I have seen him in is those chipmunks movies.

If you were a new comedian and you met someone successful, who you may even admire/look up to, you are probably going to remember your first interaction.

 

[Linkura]

In case anyone misses the subtle bullshit at the end of his tweet there, Rashomon is a classic Japanese film directed by Akira Kurosawa exploring unreliable narrators who all recall different versions of the same event. Because, you know, she's Asian.

Jesus Christ. What a fucking asshole.

 

[TripleBee]

It doesn't read like an apology because it isn't. He's saying she is incorrect.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Ummm thats how the real world works. People do misremember things, they do have different perspectives on how things played out. He privately contacted to talk. He did as much as possible from his position to not completely dismiss her claim and also was willing to apologize if he hurt her AND reached out and talk to her.

"I do not remember"

"both misremembering"

"#Rashomon"

Really tried hard not to dismiss her claim.

As for different perspectives, yeah that happens but people who have been the targets of face to face racism usually remember it quite accurately.

That kind of thing sticks with you for a lifetime when it comes from a total stranger, when it comes from someone that you possibly admire and aspire to be like? Yeah, I don't think her memory is that faulty here.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I'm not really of the view that's there's much of a difference. If you think it's funny enough to say in either of those contexts, it's not really a stretch for him to think it's funny to say what Yi remembers he said.

There's a difference between using the language of racism in the process of villainizing and mocking racists and saying offensive, targeted things to a POC. Being willing to do one of those in no way implies to me that a person would do the other.

If it did happen, which I am not ruling out, maybe Cross thought he was engaged I some kind of layered irony or something which obviously would not necessarily come across to his conversation partner.

He's definitely an acerbic dude who doesn't shy away from cutting remarks but nonetheless I don't believe he would intentionally belittle an actual acquaintance on the basis of their race. But again, I'm not ruling out that he said something insensitive without meaning to be hostile and harmful.

 

[Kinyou]

He really should have left out that final third. Just comes off as shitty.

 

[Saya]

Sometimes people who say casual racist things just don't remember what they did, because it doesn't mean anything to them. They weren't the one being traumatized. It was just a joke, he was just having some fun.

 

[Zen Aku]

"I do not remember"

"both misremembering"

"#Rashomon"

Really tried hard not to dismiss her claim.

As for different perspectives, yeah that happens but people who have been the targets of face to face racism usually remember it quite accurately.

That kind of thing sticks with you for a lifetime.

I grew up exposed to racism with kids around my age and I certainly don't remember any of those kids name. Sure I remember it happened at some point, somewhere.

Both people can misremember something. He might have said something pretty racist, but it might have not been exactly what she claim it it cause she might also misremembering what he said.

So Rashomon is about narrators who are unreliable because of their inability to recall events? While I agree that its unnecessary to include that in his apology. It does serve his apology that maybe certain things did happened but their recollections of it doesn't quite matches up. So he contacted her and talk privately and tried to resolve the situation. He could have hashtag #FakeNews at the end. That would have been a lot worse.

 

[PixelatedBookake]

Why not just give an earnest apology and own up to it? He didn't apologize for anything.

 

[dohdough]

I wonder how many people giving Cross the benefit of the doubt also didn't condemn McGregor for his remarks about dancing monkeys. Probably no one.

I also can't believe some of you are defending #Rashomon as if Cross was totally ignorant of the context, which is what makes comedy, comedy.

Shitty "apology" and I never liked Cross anyways. All the more reason not to in the future.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Why not just give an earnest apology and own up to it? He didn't apologize for anything.

He doesn't think he did it. Put yourself in that position and think about whether you'd just "own up to it."

He tried to thread the needle here by expressing sympathy but without saying he did something he doesn't think he did.

 

[curiouscharles]

Why not just give an earnest apology and own up to it? He didn't apologize for anything.

Yeah, he 's not looking good here.

The ONLY thing you can say in such a situation is "holy shit, I'm an asshole, I apologize sincerely, and will work to never be like that again - fuck me"... or something along those lines.

Not, "are you sure you're remembering this right? I'm a nice person!".

Pretty upset about this to be honest, would have expected better of him.

 

[Zen Aku]

Why not just give an earnest apology and own up to it? He didn't apologize for anything.

Would you apologize for something you believe in your heart you didn't do? Sure there might be a possibility you did it, or something similar. But you're just not sure.

 

[Zoe]

He doesn't think he did it. Put yourself in that position and think about whether you'd just "own up to it."

He tried to thread the needle here by expressing sympathy but without saying he did something he doesn't think he did.

It'd be fine if he stopped there. But then he accused her of misremembering it.

 

[Duxxy3]

That seems completely within the character of a comedian. For better or worse. Shitty thing to say though.

 

[pigeon]

He doesn't think he did it. Put yourself in that position and think about whether you'd just "own up to it."

He tried to thread the needle here by expressing sympathy but without saying he did something he doesn't think he did.

If I was accused of doing something racist that I knew I didn't do I would be much more aggressive in my denial.

The reason you "thread the needle" is because you don't think you did anything super racist but you're not really sure and maybe you did something kind of racist.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

It'd be fine if he stopped there. But then he accused her of misremembering it.

I won't deny he isn't tactful.

 

[Drifters]

Yeah, not buying that.

 

[gohepcat]

"I don't remember that at all, but if Ms. Yi was upset by an interaction we had where I acted ignorant and inappropriate, I'm deeply sorry. That's not who I am and I am disappointed in myself for not realizing at the time how hurtful dumb comments might have been"

Anything besides "maybe the real problem is we're BOTH misremembering! yeah! definitely not calling you a liar though."

That is awfully close to what he said. You would be absolutely torn apart for that.

 

[Zen Aku]

If I was accused of doing something racist that I knew I didn't do I would be much more aggressive in my denial.

The reason you "thread the needle" is because you don't think you did anything super racist but you're not really sure and maybe you did something kind of racist.

No the reason you dont go full denial is because it would make you look like a jackass for dismissing her claim completely. He's being decent in at least giving her the benefit of the doubt and apologizing if it did happen.

I'm sure he has said something racist at some point in his life and cant recall it. So he is willing to at least apologize if it did happen. Being a hardass and denying it completely is just like yelling Fake News and blocking your ears.

 

[gohepcat]

If I was accused of doing something racist that I knew I didn't do I would be much more aggressive in my denial.

The reason you "thread the needle" is because you don't think you did anything super racist but you're not really sure and maybe you did something kind of racist.

I would find doing that difficult without straight up accusing the person of lying. You would end up sounding much worse to a lot of people.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

If I was accused of doing something racist that I knew I didn't do I would be much more aggressive in my denial.

The reason you "thread the needle" is because you don't think you did anything super racist but you're not really sure and maybe you did something kind of racist.

I can easily imagine an aggressive denial leading to just as much anger at him (or more) so maybe he figured he'd just say what he felt without massaging the message into optimal PR.

Calling her a liar even harder wouldn't be better, would it?

 

[pigeon]

No the reason you dont go full denial is because it would make you look like a jackass for dismissing her claim completely. He's being decent in at least giving her the benefit of the doubt and apologizing if it did happen.

I'm sure he has said something racist at some point in his life and cant recall it. So he is willing to at least apologize if it did happen. Being a hardass and denying it completely is just like yelling Fake News and blocking your ears.

Right. He's unwilling to fully deny it because he knows he's probably done some racist stuff, so maybe he did this racist thing. That's what I said.

I would find doing that difficult without straight up accusing the person of lying. You would end up sounding much worse to a lot of people.

I can easily imagine an aggressive denial leading to just as much anger at him and further recriminations so maybe he figured he'd just say what he felt without massaging the message into optimal PR.

Calling her a liar even harder wouldn't be better, would it?

There's something really interesting about all these responses, which is that they primarily treat this situation as a PR crisis management situation.

If people are actually accusing you of things you know you didn't do, that's not a PR crisis management situation, that's just slander. Yes, just saying "none of that is true, I have character witnesses" is a normal response to random out-of-the-blue slander.

The fact that Cross's response is obviously crisis management (and these replies perhaps unconsciously know that, since they're analyzing it from a crisis management perspective) should be telling in itself.

 

[BocoDragon]

This is too specific not to be true. I'm not going to call Cross a monster, but a terribly unfunny, racist caveman in that instance? Yup.

His apology needs to be better. Can't charisma out of this one.

 

[rudger]

It'd be fine if he stopped there. But then he accused her of misremembering it.

What if she confused him with another white comedian? ...what if she’s the racist?! Shiyamalantwist.jpg

Spoiler

To be clear, I don’t actually think that’s what happened