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Chile declares state of emergency in Santiago as violent protests escalate

crowbrow

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Fucking communis... wait, I mean wut? I thought capitalist countries were not ruthless oppressive regimes like socialist or communist ones... First Ecuador, now Chile but they will never provoke the media hysterics that Venezuela or China do though.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Fucking communis... wait, I mean wut? I thought capitalist countries were not ruthless oppressive regimes like socialist or communist ones... First Ecuador, now Chile but they will never provoke the media hysterics that Venezuela or China do though.


Why do you care anyway? These protesters are the same as Antifa.
 
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Ornlu

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Fucking communis... wait, I mean wut? I thought capitalist countries were not ruthless oppressive regimes like socialist or communist ones... First Ecuador, now Chile but they will never provoke the media hysterics that Venezuela or China do though.
Lol are we really trying to morph this into some communist stanning? I'd really rather not.

Chile has never NOT been a hot mess; I'm not sure if you've ever read up on Chilean history, but if you haven't, I'd strongly recommend adding it to your reading list. It's a completely wild ride. Spanish colony - Revolution - Civil War - Republic - Junta - Dictatorship - Republic - Commies - Junta - Dictatorship - Republic. Not exactly fertile ground for a normal, functioning, Western style Republic.
 

crowbrow

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Lol are we really trying to morph this into some communist stanning? I'd really rather not.

Chile has never NOT been a hot mess; I'm not sure if you've ever read up on Chilean history, but if you haven't, I'd strongly recommend adding it to your reading list. It's a completely wild ride. Spanish colony - Revolution - Civil War - Republic - Junta - Dictatorship - Republic - Commies - Junta - Dictatorship - Republic. Not exactly fertile ground for a normal, functioning, Western style Republic.
No but I'm sick of the media telling me socialism and communism is the ultimate evil every time someone throws a rock in Venezuela and when shit like this has been happening for decades in many capitalist South American countries (like right now in Ecuador and Chile) the media is mostly silent, treat it as a footnote or as "meh, business as usual" (like you're doing here BTW, most LAtin American countries have a super messy past, including Venezuela, that doesn't stop the media claiming Chavez and Maduro is the worst to ever happen to the world). And yeah I know about Chilean history, I have two Chilean uncles who came to my country escaping Pinochet's dictatorship. That one was a favorite of the capitalists BTW and the right loves to put Chile as the ultimate example of the merits of capitalism in Latin America, they claim Pinochet did good persecuting and disappearing all those damn commies (even though my uncles were doctors and 100% not communists but they just happen to support the democratically elected government which everyone knows that supporting democracy is what evil commies do).
 
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lock2k

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Fucking communis... wait, I mean wut? I thought capitalist countries were not ruthless oppressive regimes like socialist or communist ones... First Ecuador, now Chile but they will never provoke the media hysterics that Venezuela or China do though.
They don't have to kill stray dogs and violate trash cans in Chile to be able to eat something at least.

Also, Communism sucks and killed way more people than Nazis and it fucking gets a free pass in the modern world.
 
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crowbrow

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They don't have to kill stray dogs and violate trash cans in Chile to be able to eat something at least.
Sensationalist media BS, the same as the baby-eating communists during the cold war. In all oppressive regimes or systems there are people suffering extreme conditions and taking extreme measures including in capitalist societies that generate miserable conditions for the population.

Also, Communism sucks and killed way more people than Nazis and it fucking gets a free pass in the modern world.
Capitalism sucks too and has been also responsible for millions of deaths and misery around the world though.
 
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Ornlu

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No but I'm sick of the media telling me socialism and communism is the ultimate evil every time someone throws a rock in Venezuela and when shit like this has been happening for decades in many capitalist South American countries (like right now in Ecuador and Chile) the media is mostly silent, treat it as a footnote or as "meh, business as usual" (like you're doing here BTW, most LAtin American countries have a super messy past, including Venezuela, that doesn't stop the media claiming Chavez and Maduro is the worst to ever happen to the world). And yeah I know about Chilean history, I have two Chilean uncles who came to my country escaping Pinochet's dictatorship. That one was a favorite of the capitalists BTW and the right loves to put Chile as the ultimate example of the merits of capitalism in Latin America, they claim Pinochet did good persecuting and disappearing all those damn commies (even though my uncles were doctors and 100% not communists but they just happen to support the democratically elected government which everyone knows that supporting democracy is what evil commies do).
Well, riots/protests/social unrest absolutely is "business as usual" per the standards of most of South America. I'm glad your uncles managed to escape to another country (whichever country you are from) and were able to avoid persecution that way. I didn't try and stand up for Pinochet either, btw.
 

KingMoron

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Sensationalist media BS, the same as the baby-eating communists during the cold war. In all oppressive regimes or systems there are people suffering extreme conditions and taking extreme measures including in capitalist societies that generate miserable conditions for the population.


Capitalism sucks too and has been also responsible for millions of deaths and misery around the world though.
Settle down comrade
 
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crowbrow

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Well, riots/protests/social unrest absolutely is "business as usual" per the standards of most of South America. I'm glad your uncles managed to escape to another country (whichever country you are from) and were able to avoid persecution that way. I didn't try and stand up for Pinochet either, btw.
I'm not saying you did but the decades-old discourse is already tiresome of the right preaching us how nice and friendly capitalism is while pointing towards Chile as the ultimate example of how wonderful everything is under capitalism while drilling the same old tale of the socialist and communist boogeymen when our history more than shows that dichotomy to be complete BS.
 

lock2k

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Sensationalist media BS, the same as the baby-eating communists during the cold war. In all oppressive regimes or systems there are people suffering extreme conditions and taking extreme measures including in capitalist societies that generate miserable conditions for the population.


Capitalism sucks too and has been also responsible for millions of deaths and misery around the world though.
Capitalism rules!

Where do you live?
 
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crowbrow

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Capitalism rules!

Where do you live?
Germany although I'm originally from Latin America.

BTW, as a disclaimer since in these conversations people tend to have a very black and white view of the world that devolves into retarded simplistic reductionism: I'm aware of the benefits of capitalism and the good it has brought to the world by increasing wealth and prosperity as I'm also aware of its exploitative practices and how it has promoted oppression and abuse extensively too. The same with communism, I'm aware of the evils state communism has devolved to but I'm also aware of how socialist ideals have improved the lives of millions of people when implemented in a good way and when they point towards the loss of perspective that occurs when a market-based economy loses its north.
 
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Fbh

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Well damn, couldn't have picked a worse time to open my first store/business.
I'm way down south so things haven't really been bad here, some minor scale conflict during the night and panicked people rushing to the supermarkets and fuel stations to stock up on supplies, but otherwise things are working fairly normally. In Santiago and other larger cities it's getting pretty ugly though, just heard from an acquaintance yesterday who had just opened his food joint a couple of months ago and had it completely looted and destroyed on Saturday.

Some things to keep in mind though:
- While a lot of the media isn't focusing on it, a large part of protests have been completely peaceful. Don't mix up the people who are legitimately protesting with the pieces of shit doing the looting/rioting.
- As one of the images mentions, the metro fare increase was only the trigger, the protests are about the massive inequality and corruption in the country. Chile is quickly turning into a country with first world cost of living but third world wages.
- While currently everything is being blamed on the right, and not only is a lot of the blame with them but the current government is shit too, let's keep in mind that the dictatorship ended almost 30 years ago, in that time we've had 6 different presidents with 5 of them being from the left... that's 24 out of those 30 years. The problem goes beyond left and right, it's the entire political class in this country that is shit, gets elected through lies and false promises and then just spends their entire term filling their pockets (and those of their friends).
 

Ornlu

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Well damn, couldn't have picked a worse time to open my first store/business.
I'm way down south so things haven't really been bad here, some minor scale conflict during the night and panicked people rushing to the supermarkets and fuel stations to stock up on supplies, but otherwise things are working fairly normally. In Santiago and other larger cities it's getting pretty ugly though, just heard from an acquaintance yesterday who had just opened his food joint a couple of months ago and had it completely looted and destroyed on Saturday.

Some things to keep in mind though:
- While a lot of the media isn't focusing on it, a large part of protests have been completely peaceful. Don't mix up the people who are legitimately protesting with the pieces of shit doing the looting/rioting.
- As one of the images mentions, the metro fare increase was only the trigger, the protests are about the massive inequality and corruption in the country. Chile is quickly turning into a country with first world cost of living but third world wages.
- While currently everything is being blamed on the right, and not only is a lot of the blame with them but the current government is shit too, let's keep in mind that the dictatorship ended almost 30 years ago, in that time we've had 6 different presidents with 5 of them being from the left... that's 24 out of those 30 years. The problem goes beyond left and right, it's the entire political class in this country that is shit, gets elected through lies and false promises and then just spends their entire term filling their pockets (and those of their friends).
I hope it stays mostly peaceful in your area. What business have you opened?

It does sound like a generally high level of corruption. I'd love to hear more about the situation from someone with perspective from within the country.
 
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hunthunt

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Without a doubt the incredible uprising and complete social implosion in my little neoliberal country governed by the right wing coalition of Sebastian Piñera surprised no one in this country except for the oligarchy which has been abusing from their privileges and chocking the working class with an insane and uncontrolled hyperconsumerism, crazy unfair and unequal distribution of wealth and a brutal indolence to the poor and old people with I would say even machiavelic level of evil press releases from the government to speak about stuff like the ridiculous increase of the cost of living.

First of all and most important: People in Chile are not protesting because of a metro ticket price rise of 30 pesos which is equivalent to 4 cents. Even though, ticket pricing is an interesting thing to have a look at as well, in Chile you pay public transport every time you use it. One way, one ticket. Each costs more than one dollar by now. If you go to work by public transport it’s two dollars a day only to go there and back. Given that you go there at least 5 days a week, it makes up to about 50 $/month

It's money people don't have, or in other words: It's 20 % of their minimum wage: 432 USD.

Meanwhile senators and deputies earn up to 9,349,851 Chilean pesos which is equal to 13,150 USD. “On average, the 43 senators have a liquid income of $6,320,154”:

The price of electricity is rising which is already one of the most expensive in the Americas, averaging 100 USD month

Water in Chile is privatized, and its far and away the most expensive in the Americas

There are similar problems with working rights (almost inexistent working rights actually, 45 hours a week, no sindicates, complete job insecurity), health care (Non existent either, just a private, absurdly expensive insurance system and a completely precarious state system in which you can be waiting a tratment for months until you actually die before lol) and the pension system (an awful private system called AFP which has been studied and discredited everywhere)

. There are also very high university fees, especially compared to the salary, here is literally impossible for 90% of the population have careers in medicine for example, as stupid as it sounds.

So there you go, CAPITALISM JUST FAILED in Chile. And people dont care about burning down the whole city if that means a complete redesign that could leads us to a Welfare State for example.

sorry for my english, I know it sucks, I went to public schools which are the worst in Latin America.
 
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bigedole

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I'm interested in understanding more about what's happening in Chile. My gut/bias leads me to believe that despite these industries being privatized, they are not free markets. Crony capitalism is not capitalism.
 

crowbrow

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I'm interested in understanding more about what's happening in Chile. My gut/bias leads me to believe that despite these industries being privatized, they are not free markets. Crony capitalism is not capitalism.
That's like saying since communism in theory has no central authority figure then the Soviet Union was not really communism but crony communism. The ideal version of any ideology is usually never possible, the point is that capitalism usually devolves into crony capitalism. It happens very often because the ideal version of capitalism doesn't exist and capitalism in the real world has flaws that make it easily become crony capitalism.
 

bigedole

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That's like saying since communism in theory has no central authority figure then the Soviet Union was not really communism but crony communism. The ideal version of any ideology is usually never possible, the point is that capitalism usually devolves into crony capitalism. It happens very often because the ideal version of capitalism doesn't exist and capitalism in the real world has flaws that make it easily become crony capitalism.
I'm not getting into a no true Scotsman debate. Most of the things people point to when complaining about outcomes of capitalism are things that happened directly because of government involvement, and aren't the "fault" of free markets. The ideas behind capitalism are responsible for bringing billions of people out of poverty and putting phones in their hands. The ideas behind communism are responsible for killing millions people and pushing untold millions more into poverty.
 

crowbrow

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I'm not getting into a no true Scotsman debate. Most of the things people point to when complaining about outcomes of capitalism are things that happened directly because of government involvement, and aren't the "fault" of free markets. The ideas behind capitalism are responsible for bringing billions of people out of poverty and putting phones in their hands. The ideas behind communism are responsible for killing millions people and pushing untold millions more into poverty.
You are the one who brought up the topic of true vs not true this and that so if you didnt want this discussion why start it?

But capitalism needs government intervention to keep it going so that is why it inevitably turns into crony capitalism sooner or later. Remember the 2008 financial crisis when all those banks were going to collapse and basically the government stepped in and bailed them all out? The true "free market" alternative of that would have been to leave everything collapse and basically create a worlwide financial crisis order of magnitudes bigger than the one that happened. That's why the banks were considered "too big to fail". At some point capitalism creates these financial entities that are so big and intertwined with everything in society that a free market version of them is no longer possible, they need government support to sustain themselves. That's why 100% of big financial interests have ties to government officials and do lobbying. Crony capitalism IS capitalism, it actually is the consequence of one of the main flaws of capitalism.

And socialist theories have also been responsible for improving the lives of millions by promoting social programs, worker rights, etc. That doesn't take away the evils of communist regimes but that people have cellphones now doesn't suddenly make capitalism a perfect infallible utopia, capitalism is responsible for a lot of shit and abuse too.
 

bigedole

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You are the one who brought up the topic of true vs not true this and that so if you didnt want this discussion why start it?

But capitalism needs government intervention to keep it going so that is why it inevitably turns into crony capitalism sooner or later. Remember the 2008 financial crisis when all those banks were going to collapse and basically the government stepped in and bailed them all out? The true "free market" alternative of that would have been to leave everything collapse and basically create a worlwide financial crisis order of magnitudes bigger than the one that happened. That's why the banks were considered "too big to fail". At some point capitalism creates these financial entities that are so big and intertwined with everything in society that a free market version of them is no longer possible, they need government support to sustain themselves. That's why 100% of big financial interests have ties to government officials and do lobbying. Crony capitalism IS capitalism, it actually is the consequence of one of the main flaws of capitalism.

And socialist theories have also been responsible for improving the lives of millions by promoting social programs, worker rights, etc. That doesn't take away the evils of communist regimes but that people have cellphones now doesn't suddenly make capitalism a perfect infallible utopia, capitalism is responsible for a lot of shit and abuse too.
Why were the banks going to collapse in 2008? Because the federal government encouraged banks to give out loans to people the banks knew couldn't afford them, in the interest of "Everyone should be able to get a home loan". And yes, the government should've let the banks go under, rather than pushing the cost onto the tax-payers. It is precisely because the destructive part of capitalism no longer exists when the government gets involved that these types of things continue to happen.

No one said capitalism leads to perfect utopias. It's simply the most efficient and most fair system for generating wealth and distributing resources. Communism by its very definition is both unfair and inefficient. Put natural human corruption on top of it and you get mass murder as opposed to, uh, I'm not even sure what the equivalent would be for capitalist societies. Seriously, you're comparing the abuse of rich people using their wealth to bend/create rules to get them richer to literally millions of people dying.
 

crowbrow

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Why were the banks going to collapse in 2008? Because the federal government encouraged banks to give out loans to people the banks knew couldn't afford them, in the interest of "Everyone should be able to get a home loan". And yes, the government should've let the banks go under, rather than pushing the cost onto the tax-payers. It is precisely because the destructive part of capitalism no longer exists when the government gets involved that these types of things continue to happen.

No one said capitalism leads to perfect utopias. It's simply the most efficient and most fair system for generating wealth and distributing resources. Communism by its very definition is both unfair and inefficient. Put natural human corruption on top of it and you get mass murder as opposed to, uh, I'm not even sure what the equivalent would be for capitalist societies. Seriously, you're comparing the abuse of rich people using their wealth to bend/create rules to get them richer to literally millions of people dying.
Well but these financial institutions already exist and there's no version of capitalism right now where they don't exist so this perfect free market version is a fantasy. That's because sooner or later capitalism was going to turn into what it has become: crony capitalism. The amount of wealth capitalism generates makes it virtually impossible for it to not become intertwined with government/power interests.

And yes, capitalism is one of the most effective systems to generate wealth, probably the most effective. Socialist institutions are, in their part, some of the most effective ways to guarantee rights and improved quality of life to many people too and counterbalance the negative effects of the abuses in the market (for example how unions made way to get rid of abuses by employers and guarantee workers rights).

And communism is by definition also effective, i mean it is an ideological utopia after all but in practice it has lead to the deaths and abuse of millions. On the other side, capitalism is all fine a dandy in paper too but in practice in the real world capitalism has gotten to where it is by exploiting and pillaging cheap labor and resources from many lands, exploiting poor people, starting wars to secure cheap resources, etc. So capitalism in the real world and not its utopia version has its fair share of blood and abuse attached to it.
 

SpecialAgentZ

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The so called protesters are just a bunch of blackblocks, antifa and communists, the same soros and Foro de São Paulo funded scum you'll find all over Latin America committing crimes and political vandalism, like a far-left unnoficial militia. They do this when the far left lose power, in an attempt to cause social convulsions that could lead to revolution. They tried that in Brazil in 2013 but lost the momentum to the normal citizens who elected Bolsonaro.
 
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bigedole

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Well but these financial institutions already exist and there's no version of capitalism right now where they don't exist so this perfect free market version is a fantasy. That's because sooner or later capitalism was going to turn into what it has become: crony capitalism. The amount of wealth capitalism generates makes it virtually impossible for it to not become intertwined with government/power interests.

And yes, capitalism is one of the most effective systems to generate wealth, probably the most effective. Socialist institutions are, in their part, some of the most effective ways to guarantee rights and improved quality of life to many people too and counterbalance the negative effects of the abuses in the market (for example how unions made way to get rid of abuses by employers and guarantee workers rights).

And communism is by definition also effective, i mean it is an ideological utopia after all but in practice it has lead to the deaths and abuse of millions. On the other side, capitalism is all fine a dandy in paper too but in practice in the real world capitalism has gotten to where it is by exploiting and pillaging cheap labor and resources from many lands, exploiting poor people, starting wars to secure cheap resources, etc. So capitalism in the real world and not its utopia version has its fair share of blood and abuse attached to it.
I don't think you think very deeply about the things you think. You're blaming capitalism for starting wars for the purpose of securing resources... wtf do you think wars were fought about 2000 years ago? How can you suggest that socialism improves quality of life "to many people too" in any way remotely similar to what capitalism has done? Seriously, tell me some of these great socialist societies that have improved the lives of their citizens. While you're at it, point me towards a union that is effective in current day and isn't simply another representation of corruption and abuse. I have no problem with workers organizing together, but who in their right mind thinks it's reasonable to make it mandatory to join or be unable to get the job? What incentive is their for the union to actually behave in a responsible manner then? Do you think teacher's unions are a net positive on the education system now? How about police unions on law enforcement? How about autoworker unions? I mean, this list can get long.

You're blind. You've grown up in a world that already benefited from all of the amazing good that free markets and trade bring to civilization. You can't imagine what it was like to live in a world where half of every newborn baby was dead before they turned 10. You only see what we have now, specifically what some rich people have now, and ponder how unfair it is that they have so much when so many others simply have a place to live, a fridge, a TV, the internet, a car and basically every need taken care of with some small amount of effort. Communism isn't an ideological utopia, unless you're idea of a utopia is to exist without merit as an individual. To simply be a cog in a machine, whose effort does not matter, whose unique perspective on life is unwanted and ultimately whose existence is meaningless.
 

crowbrow

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You're blaming capitalism for starting wars for the purpose of securing resources...
Well capitalism wouldnt be what it is today without these wars so it definitely has benefited from them. Unless you think capitalism wealth comes out of nowhere and fantasy lands. So yeah it has that blood on its hands.

That wars were fought 2000 years ago doesn't suddenly make the fact that capitalism benefits from wars disappear. Famines were also happening thousands of years ago that doesn't mean communism hasnt been responsible for famines itself. Same thing.

Seriously, tell me some of these great socialist societies that have improved the lives of their citizens.
Socialist ideals and institutions are abound in practically every developed country in the world now. From workers rights to universal healthcare to redistribution of wealth through social programs. All these institutions are product of socialist ideals and socialist thought.

While you're at it, point me towards a union that is effective in current day
Unions were very important at some point in history, they provided the support for worker rights. They have become less relevant now with technological advancements. But they still play a crucial role in many countries. i know this might come as a shock for you but there are more countries in the world than the US where the relevance of unions is much more important right now, in fact this thread is about one of these countries! Maybe with stronger Unions or social institutions some of the abuses people in Chile are suffering now could be mitigated.

You're blind. You've grown up in a world that already benefited from all of the amazing good that free markets and trade bring to civilization.
You also grew up in a world which already benefitted from a lot of socialist movements and revolutions. Besides, i said in this very thread that i acknowledge the benefits brought by capitalism, but that doesn't mean i cant be critical of its abuses and weaknesses. You're the one who has this twisted simpleton black and white view of the world who cant process how someone can criticize capitalism and actually find flaws in it on a thread of a country that has left many people behind on a capitalist market system.

Communism isn't an ideological utopia
Communism is a description of an utopia. By definition utopias are ideal societies and it is described as an ideal society. That you like it or not or if it makes you emotionally unstable has no bearing of it being an actual utopia. Antartida was also an utopia, it doesn't mean you have to want to live there for it to be considered one.
 

bigedole

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The idiocy behind your first point is too much for me. You win the war of attrition. I'm going to continue benefiting from the conquests of Julius Caesar while reading manga as I wait for Trails of Cold Steel 3 to go live in an hour.
 

crowbrow

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The idiocy behind your first point is too much for me. You win the war of attrition. I'm going to continue benefiting from the conquests of Julius Caesar while reading manga as I wait for Trails of Cold Steel 3 to go live in an hour.
Glad you agree you have no idea of what you were talking about. Enjoy your many worker rights :)
 

hunthunt

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The so called protesters are just a bunch of blackblocks, antifa and communists, the same soros and Foro de São Paulo funded scum you'll find all over Latin America committing crimes and political vandalism, like a far-left unnoficial militia. They do this when the far left lose power, in an attempt to cause social convulsions that could lead to revolution. They tried that in Brazil in 2013 but lost the momentum to the normal citizens who elected Bolsonaro.
This is not a political movement, no flagship has been taken nor anyone has claimed being behind this, just random normal people.

This is just a complete society tired of being crushed by bad social politics but you cant understand this is you are not part of the 50% of chileans that live with less than 500 dollars a month in a country with a cost of living similar to a developed European country and where every basic service (and this is seriously true) is expensive and privated.

We are chileans, we dont give a fuck about Sao Paulo communist conspiranoic theories and the real left wing in Chile is dead anyway, they only get 7 or 8% percent in elections, everyone else is liberal and pro Capitalists even socialists and progresists.
 
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SpecialAgentZ

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"Sao Paulo communist conspiranoic theories"

Everything I don't know is conspiracy theory.
The bastards are know for organizing and deploying stuff like this for decades in the entire South America & the Caribbean and it's "conspiracy".

What you are seeing now we saw here 6 years ago. Started the same way: far-left agitators, mainly communists and anarchists blackblocks, tried to cause convulsion using the "R$ 0.20" increase in bus fare in capitals as pretext. Even got a number of civilians to join the cause. But as soon as normal people saw their real demands and their ways (destruction, aggression, socialist propaganda, feminism and all that bullshit) people took the protests for themselves and converted it into a healthy campaign against corruption, socialism and far-left.

Just because a political wing party isn't represented in current legislature/government doesn't mesn that the underground agitprop ceased existing or that the scum following the ideologies of the idiots stopped being born. There are blackblocks, communists and anarchists in the streets with the same stupid folks doing the same stupid things with the same stupid flags and modus operandi.

And I live in Brazil, you don't want to preach to me about cost of living and average income, dude. You know well that is not a Chilean only problem.
 
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Davey

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Edit: Both are the same videos but on different moments, that's why they have the same thumbnail.

Do someone remember what I always say about sao paulo forum? Well, let's take a look...


That one is diosdado cabello (in lowercase, zero respect from me), he just said in an interview this:

We're going through a bolivarian hurricane, the bolivarian hurricane of people can't be stopped. What's happening in Peru, what's happening in Chile, what's happening in Argentina, what's happening in Honduras, what's happening in Ecuador... it's just the little breeze, the hurricane is coming... Hold on... it is absolutely impossible that Colombia stays as it currently is, it's absolutely impossible that Brasil stays as it currently is, that's going to explode because they have a neo-liberalism overdose and no one can resist that.
Then you have nicolas maduro saying:


I can tell you from Venezuela "The plan in going well!", Sao Paulo forum, the plan is going as we made it, the plan is going perfect, you understand whay I'm saying, Sao Paulo forum plan is in full development, victorious!

(pause)

All goals we wanted to achieved... we're achieving them one by one, it's the union of social movements, progressist, revolutionaries, national-populars, of all latin america, caribbean and beyond... of the world, Sao Paulo forum has gone revitalized, reimpulsed, and that's how we have to continue joining progressist, revolutionaries, of the left, advanced, from latin america, the caribbean and the world, that's the goal we wanted... and we're going well, we're much better than we expected, and even there's even more coming... I can't say no more, they're "super mustache secrets", I can't say no more.
And there's more but I actually can't hear them without having an actual rage/trigger... It's almost the only thing in life that really triggers me...

Some may argue: "Why are they saying their plans? That's bs!"... Well, they've always said their plans when they know they can't be stopped, that's been like that since I've been a child and all people say is "Nah, It's bs I don't believe them" when they announce their shits...

Somehow Piñera ended up calling "war" yesterday after cancelling the public transport price raise, I'm speculating on this one but It times perfectly with the moment of that message madure gave...

I'm frustrated, angry, I feel impotent... I'll leave it as is... Think what you will...
 
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Davey

Member
Jan 30, 2014
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Venezuela
"Sao Paulo communist conspiranoic theories"

Everything I don't know is conspiracy theory.
The bastards are know for organizing and deploying stuff like this for decades in the entire South America & the Caribbean and it's "conspiracy".

What you are seeing now we saw here 6 years ago. Started the same way: far-left agitators, mainly communists and anarchists blackblocks, tried to cause convulsion using the "R$ 0.20" increase in bus fare in capitals as pretext. Even got a number of civilians to join the cause. But as soon as normal people saw their real demands and their ways (destruction, aggression, socialist propaganda, feminism and all that bullshit) people took the protests for themselves and converted it into a healthy campaign against corruption, socialism and far-left.

Just because a political wing party isn't represented in current legislature/government doesn't mesn that the underground agitprop ceased existing or that the scum following the ideologies of the idiots stopped being born. There are blackblocks, communists and anarchists in the streets with the same stupid folks doing the same stupid things with the same stupid flags and modus operandi.

And I live in Brazil, you don't want to preach to me about cost of living and average income, dude. You know well that is not a Chilean only problem.
FFS dude we're in the same fucking boat because Brazil and Venezuela went onboard almost at the same time while most latin america jumped late.

I never thought I'd found someone that gets it, not because "deep understanding" or some "wokeness" shit, but because you've seen it in the last 20 years going public.

Idk what's so "conspiratory" about them, they have publicly appeared since around early 2000's in our countries sucking fidel's cock in national TV since the beginning, they even announced their regular forums in national news.
 

crowbrow

Member
Feb 28, 2019
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"Sao Paulo communist conspiranoic theories"

Everything I don't know is conspiracy theory.
The bastards are know for organizing and deploying stuff like this for decades in the entire South America & the Caribbean and it's "conspiracy".

What you are seeing now we saw here 6 years ago. Started the same way: far-left agitators, mainly communists and anarchists blackblocks, tried to cause convulsion using the "R$ 0.20" increase in bus fare in capitals as pretext. Even got a number of civilians to join the cause. But as soon as normal people saw their real demands and their ways (destruction, aggression, socialist propaganda, feminism and all that bullshit) people took the protests for themselves and converted it into a healthy campaign against corruption, socialism and far-left.

Just because a political wing party isn't represented in current legislature/government doesn't mesn that the underground agitprop ceased existing or that the scum following the ideologies of the idiots stopped being born. There are blackblocks, communists and anarchists in the streets with the same stupid folks doing the same stupid things with the same stupid flags and modus operandi.

And I live in Brazil, you don't want to preach to me about cost of living and average income, dude. You know well that is not a Chilean only problem.
This is the exact same conspiracy talk the left says about right wing agitators in Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, etc (remember the protests against Dilma Rousseff which also started over transportation tarifs). Maybe both are right... Or maybe both are conspiracy nonsense.
 

Dontero

Member
Apr 19, 2018
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Glad you agree you have no idea of what you were talking about.
You mean like you attributing war to capitalism despite every single system having wars including communism ? Your argument about war in defense of famine is like the oldest argument ever uses since 70s that never flied anywhere and is something every new kid on the block who finds out about communist uses when faced with communism problems.

The difference between two is that wars happen because of various reasons and you can hardly tribute them to economic system. Secondly capitalism directly opposes war, ideal capitalistic world is world without any borders. It is central power of state that wants to prevent or 1up someone for gains not economic system.

The famines are good argument because everything from start to finish is direct cause of communism.
This is best exemplified by Ukraine famine. Communists took over bread basket of europe which produced shitload of food for whole europe, killed succesful farmers who just one generation ago were serfs aka slaves because apparently they were "wealthy" and didn't want to "share their spoils with people" despite themselves not having much. Everything was fine until bad years happened and whole thing collapsed like house of cards because you can't replace farmers who knew their work from experience with random people doing some work for 1 year or 2. That could be the end of the story but it was just the beggining.

After they realized that they won't have enough food for everyone communists decided to do what communist do. Some animals are more equal than others. They took what food was left and shipped most of it to russia leaving people who toiled in fields with barely anything. Those who hid any kind of storage of food were EXECUTED. Millions died directly because of communism.

Do you know what would happen under capitalism ? Ukraine would be instantly flooded with food from somewhere else because hungry people would give everything for food and food would be much profitable there.


----------------------
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Enjoy your many worker rights :)
Which didn't happen because of communism or socialism but due to capitalism. As people living standards improved they got more free time and excess of food to unionize and collectively bargain with employers.

What communists don't understand is that in capitalism not capitalist but consumer rules. How bussiness owner or worker handles work is completely irreleveant. For all consumer cares workers can completely own means of production or made out of heads of business owners nice piramid. It doesn't matter. What matter is final price and product. And this is where main difference comes and why something works and something doesn't work.

Communism is system in which workers are the ruling class. This is why it fails. Because work for work doesn't lead anywhere and workers need to force business owners and consumers to buy their products under the barrel of a gun.

Capitalism is system in which consumers rule. Workers and Business owners are completely meaningless and they are all working to satisfy consumer needs.
 
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crowbrow

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Feb 28, 2019
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You mean like you attributing war to capitalism despite every single system having wars including communism ?
The wars that capitalism uses to benefit itself from damn yeah capitalism has a responsibility there. As well as communism for its wars and its famines despite of the fact that there has been also famines in capitalist countries or in ancient times.
Secondly capitalism directly opposes war, ideal capitalistic world is world without any borders
Im not talking about idealistic fantasies here, in the real world the current capitalistic system has fed itself from wars to get cheap resources and worker exploitation around the world for cheap labor. If we are going to argue idealized versions of systems then communism is also super nice but the real world implementations of these systems are not the perfect little utopias they claim to be.

The famines are good argument because everything from start to finish is direct cause of communism.
The exploitation of workers in other countries and some wars are also due to capitalism from start to finish. You have these huge companies with economic interests that need to generate more wealth, they lobby for free market laws that allow them to exploit cheap labor in developing countries with poor working conditions, oil companies lobby for politicians that support wars and presence in countries with oil supplies, arm companies lobby for selling arms to many conflict groups all over the world. The amorality of the wealth-creating drive of capitalism is responsible for a lot of shit around the world.

Also, im not disputing here the abuses and atrocities commited under communist regimes. Im very aware of how these food managing programs ended up creating famines and death in large populations.

As people living standards improved they got more free time and excess of food to unionize and collectively bargain with employers.
That's a very shortsighted view of history. The creation of unions is directly linked to abuse from employers and many of the ideas from worker rights and unions come from socialist theories and thinkers but also go all the way back to the middle ages and guilds in city-states.
 
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Super Mario

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Nov 12, 2016
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Oh look, a bunch of high school students, obviously well-informed on the issues and history.

Will someone out there please grow some balls and let every high school student know that their opinion is worthless. They are pawns of special interests to manufacture new idiots each day to carry out their agenda.
 

hunthunt

Member
Mar 22, 2019
308
435
280
Chile
"Sao Paulo communist conspiranoic theories"

Everything I don't know is conspiracy theory.
The bastards are know for organizing and deploying stuff like this for decades in the entire South America & the Caribbean and it's "conspiracy".

What you are seeing now we saw here 6 years ago. Started the same way: far-left agitators, mainly communists and anarchists blackblocks, tried to cause convulsion using the "R$ 0.20" increase in bus fare in capitals as pretext. Even got a number of civilians to join the cause. But as soon as normal people saw their real demands and their ways (destruction, aggression, socialist propaganda, feminism and all that bullshit) people took the protests for themselves and converted it into a healthy campaign against corruption, socialism and far-left.

Just because a political wing party isn't represented in current legislature/government doesn't mesn that the underground agitprop ceased existing or that the scum following the ideologies of the idiots stopped being born. There are blackblocks, communists and anarchists in the streets with the same stupid folks doing the same stupid things with the same stupid flags and modus operandi.

And I live in Brazil, you don't want to preach to me about cost of living and average income, dude. You know well that is not a Chilean only problem.

Lol you conspiranoic guys are so funny, you really need a class of history dont you?

This kind of social unrest has happened houndred of times in the world and the they all have the same background, extreme inequallity, abuse from the olligarchy, a sensation of tiredness and despair from the population, etc etc

Its not like the french revolution had chaves agitators that fled in the deLorean to agitate the mass because thr price of the bread.

I repeat, 99% of the people that is in the streets havent even heard about that Sao paulo communist convention, and again, we dont give a fuck about it, we just want a change in the paradigm of the social politics in this country, no one here want Chaves Socialism or Bolsonaro's police state, we want our capitalism with a decent welfare state.
 
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Without a doubt the incredible uprising and complete social implosion in my little neoliberal country governed by the right wing coalition of Sebastian Piñera surprised no one in this country except for the oligarchy which has been abusing from their privileges and chocking the working class with an insane and uncontrolled hyperconsumerism, crazy unfair and unequal distribution of wealth and a brutal indolence to the poor and old people with I would say even machiavelic level of evil press releases from the government to speak about stuff like the ridiculous increase of the cost of living.

First of all and most important: People in Chile are not protesting because of a metro ticket price rise of 30 pesos which is equivalent to 4 cents. Even though, ticket pricing is an interesting thing to have a look at as well, in Chile you pay public transport every time you use it. One way, one ticket. Each costs more than one dollar by now. If you go to work by public transport it’s two dollars a day only to go there and back. Given that you go there at least 5 days a week, it makes up to about 50 $/month

It's money people don't have, or in other words: It's 20 % of their minimum wage: 432 USD.

Meanwhile senators and deputies earn up to 9,349,851 Chilean pesos which is equal to 13,150 USD. “On average, the 43 senators have a liquid income of $6,320,154”:

The price of electricity is rising which is already one of the most expensive in the Americas, averaging 100 USD month

Water in Chile is privatized, and its far and away the most expensive in the Americas

There are similar problems with working rights (almost inexistent working rights actually, 45 hours a week, no sindicates, complete job insecurity), health care (Non existent either, just a private, absurdly expensive insurance system and a completely precarious state system in which you can be waiting a tratment for months until you actually die before lol) and the pension system (an awful private system called AFP which has been studied and discredited everywhere)

. There are also very high university fees, especially compared to the salary, here is literally impossible for 90% of the population have careers in medicine for example, as stupid as it sounds.

So there you go, CAPITALISM JUST FAILED in Chile. And people dont care about burning down the whole city if that means a complete redesign that could leads us to a Welfare State for example.

sorry for my english, I know it sucks, I went to public schools which are the worst in Latin America.
I’ll be honest, as an American living in one of the poorest states, the amount of money you describe is far less than what I pay to get to work every week and I would beat wholesale ass to pay your electricity bill. Mine is three times that pretty much year rounds.

I’m not saying I understand what Chile is going through but it sounds like you simply have overpaid government workers, yes probably due to corruption.

But no one has described Chile as a place that has stifled the entrepreneurial spirit and ability to create jobs by teaming up. My coworkers and people I’ve met at symposiums over the years from Chile espouse nothing but good things about the programming jobs there when they lived there (married to Chilean people) or currently run tech startups.

So from the outside looking in to me it looks like a temper tantrum with no self reflection from the anarchist side of things.

How the police and military are conducting themselves is a whole other level of eyebrow raising.

It sounds to me like Chilean youth havent expended all their options under capitalism and went str8 for activism. That seems to be a trend everywhere.

God speed whatever future the country gets to. Let the loss of life, liberty and happiness end swiftly and in small numbers.
 
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oagboghi2

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Apr 15, 2018
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Sensationalist media BS, the same as the baby-eating communists during the cold war. In all oppressive regimes or systems there are people suffering extreme conditions and taking extreme measures including in capitalist societies that generate miserable conditions for the population.
So it's okay?

Capitalism sucks too and has been also responsible for millions of deaths and misery around the world though.
Stanning for Venezuela and China? How pathetic

"Wrap it up guys. There is a riot in Chile so we can't criticize Venezuela and China anymore."
 
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hunthunt

Member
Mar 22, 2019
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Chile
I’ll be honest, as an American living in one of the poorest states, the amount of money you describe is far less than what I pay to get to work every week and I would beat wholesale ass to pay your electricity bill. Mine is three times that pretty much year rounds.

I’m not saying I understand what Chile is going through but it sounds like you simply have overpaid government workers, yes probably due to corruption.

But no one has described Chile as a place that has stifled the entrepreneurial spirit and ability to create jobs by teaming up. My coworkers and people I’ve met at symposiums over the years from Chile espouse nothing but good things about the programming jobs there when they lived there (married to Chilean people) or currently run tech startups.

So from the outside looking in to me it looks like a temper tantrum with no self reflection from the anarchist side of things.

How the police and military are conducting themselves is a whole other level of eyebrow raising.

It sounds to me like Chilean youth havent expended all their options under capitalism and went str8 for activism. That seems to be a trend everywhere.

God speed whatever future the country gets to. Let the loss of life, liberty and happiness end swiftly and in small numbers.
Then your country can expect the same social uprising as Chile soonet than later.

No one was expecting this and we have been always one of the most stable and "rich" countries in the Americas.

You just need to look world history , theres a finite ammount of pressure that a society can tolerate being crushed until everything implodes.

This is what is happning in my small town and in the whole country.
 
Mar 18, 2018
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Then your country can expect the same social uprising as Chile soonet than later.

No one was expecting this and we have been always one of the most stable and "rich" countries in the Americas.

You just need to look world history , theres a finite ammount of pressure that a society can tolerate being crushed until everything implodes.

This is what is happning in my small town and in the whole country.
A revolution in the US like Chile isn’t going to happen. It will be something felt around the globe and will open the doors to the fall of other countries around the world through conquest.

If you want to read the history books, read the right ones.
 

hunthunt

Member
Mar 22, 2019
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A revolution in the US like Chile isn’t going to happen. It will be something felt around the globe and will open the doors to the fall of other countries around the world through conquest.

If you want to read the history books, read the right ones.

I found a interesting article in Bloomberg explaining why a total and chaotic uprising like the one in Chile could happen everywhere (ok, except United States)


If you had told me a month ago that we would be in curfew and thousands of people in every city in the country rioting for better social conditions I would have laughed in your face.