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China escalates tensions underlining the difficulties with Trump's trade war

Hotspurr

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Analysts continued to warn about the dangers of an escalating trade war on Monday, as China moved to strike back at the U.S., hitting U.S. stocks and boosting Treasuries.

Semiconductors, with direct exposure to trade, and banks stocks, which are sensitive to interest rates, were among the decliners. The biggest U.S. banks slid, with the KBW Bank Index dropping as much as 4.1% to the lowest since June 4. Bank of America Corp. led index decliners, with a drop of 5.5%, the most since Dec. 4, while Citigroup Inc. shed more than 4% and JPMorgan Chase & Co. slipped 3.8%.

Micron Technology Inc. fell 6.2% while Texas Instruments Inc. lost 4.4% and Intel Corp. was down 4%. Apple Inc. dropped 5.6%, the most since May 13. Shares in Chinese tech giants Alibaba Group Holding and JD.com Inc. fell near two month lows in U.S. Trading.
More at the Link
 
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HeresJohnny

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No one has been willing to deal with China. It was always going to be painful and that is precisely why no one did before. They are going to do whatever they can to restore the status quo, and America has to stand firm on it. China is already fucked in many ways, because the companies that are leaving there are already putting it in motion; nothing is going to stop the exodus, imo.
 

Horns

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Trade wars are easy to win. Except they're not. It's only going to get worse IMO.
 

JordanN

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Trade wars are easy to win. Except they're not. It's only going to get worse IMO.
I rather we fight a trade war against a known tyrannical and communist government.



Tiananmen was only 30 years ago, yet why did we continue to move all our factories to China? We could have built our own at home or in other countries.
 
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HeresJohnny

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I rather we fight a trade war against a known tyrannical and communist government.



Tiananmen was only 30 years ago, yet why did we continue to move all our factories to China? We could have built our own at home or in other countries.
Cheap labor. There is evidence that companies have been leaving or planning to leave China for years before Trump became president, due in large part to rising labor costs. But yeah, to put it nicely: Commies make strange bedfellows.
 
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JordanN

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Cheap labor. There is evidence that companies have been leaving or planning to leave China for years before Trump became president, due in large part to rising labor costs. But yeah, to put it nicely: Commies make strange bedfellows.
I'm definitely aware of the "cheap" labor reasons.

But all Western nations were incredibly greedy or stupid to not have a backup plan ready when it turns out China was not going to turn democratic over night. We're now feeding the beast instead of starving it.

It's actually sad when you think about it, most Communist countries were close to dying by the end of the 20th century. But we now helped fuel the biggest one left on earth instead of letting it go the way of the Soviet Union.

 
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HeresJohnny

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I'm definitely aware of the "cheap" labor reasons.

But all Western nations were incredibly greedy or stupid to not have a backup plan ready when it turns out China was not going to turn democratic over night. We're now feeding the beast instead of starving it.

It's actually sad when you think about it, most Communist countries were close to dying by the end of the 20th century. But we now helped fueled the biggest one left on earth instead of letting it go the way of the Soviet Union.

What should really terrify Americans is how much China owns of us. Seriously, I work in AC and I can't count the amount of Chinese investor-bought homes I service every day. They own corporations, buildings, and landmarks too. China is a 500 pound gorilla. We had to take the fight to them because they were already abusers of currency manipulation and straight up copyright and IP theft. Imagine what they'd be like in another decade of politicians sucking their dicks?
 

JordanN

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What should really terrify Americans is how much China owns of us. Seriously, I work in AC and I can't count the amount of Chinese investor-bought homes I service every day. They own corporations, buildings, and landmarks too. China is a 500 pound gorilla. We had to take the fight to them because they were already abusers of currency manipulation and straight up copyright and IP theft. Imagine what they'd be like in another decade of politicians sucking their dicks?
I wrote a very lengthy post on Gaming side about the exact same topic. China has definitely infiltrated the West. To the point I wouldn't be surprised they have open collaborators in the government.

 
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Ornlu

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I wrote a very lengthy post on Gaming side about the exact same topic. China has definitely infiltrated the West. To the point I wouldn't be surprised they have open collaborators in the government.

They definitely have collaborators in the sense of "politicians that want favorable deals with China in order to line their own pockets". The first most glaring example being the Biden family.
 
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DKehoe

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What should really terrify Americans is how much China owns of us. Seriously, I work in AC and I can't count the amount of Chinese investor-bought homes I service every day. They own corporations, buildings, and landmarks too. China is a 500 pound gorilla. We had to take the fight to them because they were already abusers of currency manipulation and straight up copyright and IP theft. Imagine what they'd be like in another decade of politicians sucking their dicks?
I just got back from London and Chinese investors are buying up huge amounts of property there and then leaving them empty.
 
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Boss Mog

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I rather we fight a trade war against a known tyrannical and communist government.



Tiananmen was only 30 years ago, yet why did we continue to move all our factories to China? We could have built our own at home or in other countries.
To be honest because almost nobody wants to do factory work for minimum wage in the US.
 

matt404au

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I just got back from London and Chinese investors are buying up huge amounts of property there and then leaving them empty.
That’s how they get their money out of the country and away from the greedy fingers of the state. Amazing that it’s cheaper for them to just buy overpriced property and leave it empty.
 
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JordanN

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To be honest because almost nobody wants to do factory work for minimum wage in the US.
I digress.

High School students, temporarily unemployed people, senior citizens, those are the people we should help work manual jobs until they decide to pursue something bigger in life.

Also, the push for automation may even make these jobs redundant in the future. If we could have the timeline that focused on local manufacturing and using robots vs sending all our jobs to China, I would have taken the first option.
 
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matt404au

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I rather we fight a trade war against a known tyrannical and communist government.



Tiananmen was only 30 years ago, yet why did we continue to move all our factories to China? We could have built our own at home or in other countries.
I don’t think manufacturing will ever be fully repatriated. Next best option is to decentralise it in various countries like Nepal, Thailand, etc. and introduce good ol’ capitalist competition so that the economic power is also decentralised. Maybe turn Taiwan and Tibet into manufacturing powerhouses to give China the middle finger.
 
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HeresJohnny

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I don’t think manufacturing will ever be fully repatriated. Next best option is to decentralise it in various countries like Nepal, Thailand, etc. and introduce good ol’ capitalist competition so that the economic power is also decentralised. Maybe turn Taiwan and Tibet into manufacturing powerhouses to give China the middle finger.
That'll flare their roids up good LOL
 

btgorman

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What should really terrify Americans is how much China owns of us. Seriously, I work in AC and I can't count the amount of Chinese investor-bought homes I service every day. They own corporations, buildings, and landmarks too. China is a 500 pound gorilla. We had to take the fight to them because they were already abusers of currency manipulation and straight up copyright and IP theft. Imagine what they'd be like in another decade of politicians sucking their dicks?
I’m not sure it’s THAT bad, but... this is kind of a good thing.

The reason why rich Chinese invest in other nations is because of China instability. The higher the risk of China instability the more capital flight will happen to China.
 

Boss Mog

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I digress.

High School students, temporarily unemployed people, senior citizens, those are the people we should help work manual jobs until they decide to pursue something bigger in life.

Also, the push for automation may even make these jobs redundant in the future. If we could have the timeline that focused on local manufacturing and using robots vs sending all our jobs to China, I would have taken the first option.
It'll be easy to build a factory in the US once the robots are developed enough to make shit almost entirely by themselves. In the meantime it probably made sense to do it in other countries. It's good to have stuff made in the US but if the price of the item is double, most people wouldn't buy it if there was a foreign made alternative that was half the price. I buy Chinese phones like ZTE, Xiaomi and OnePlus for that very reason, they are literally half the price or less for the same tech.

Some people might think of it as exploitation but these jobs used to pay really well for China so it was easy to get labor for them. Now that China is more developed the salaries for factory jobs aren't that great anymore and so China is actually moving its manufacturing to Africa where once again the pay that was too cheap for China is actually a decent living wage in Africa. Plus it develops countries and teaches them Western values so I'm all for it. The less third world barbarism, the better.
 

cryptoadam

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I rather we fight a trade war against a known tyrannical and communist government.



Tiananmen was only 30 years ago, yet why did we continue to move all our factories to China? We could have built our own at home or in other countries.
get ready for round 2 with HK. but of course after the crocodile tears when China fucks up HK, the same people will go back to saying trade wars are bad and they want their PS5 to be 25$ cheaper.
 

matt404au

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I’m not sure it’s THAT bad, but... this is kind of a good thing.

The reason why rich Chinese invest in other nations is because of China instability. The higher the risk of China instability the more capital flight will happen to China.
But the minute China stabilises, that capital will vaporise and crash Western markets.
 

diablos991

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Short term pain for long term gain.
Glad the President has the guts to ride this out.
 
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Zefah

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I'm definitely aware of the "cheap" labor reasons.

But all Western nations were incredibly greedy or stupid to not have a backup plan ready when it turns out China was not going to turn democratic over night. We're now feeding the beast instead of starving it.

It's actually sad when you think about it, most Communist countries were close to dying by the end of the 20th century. But we now helped fuel the biggest one left on earth instead of letting it go the way of the Soviet Union.

I think most truly believed that the Communist party could not last after the populace starting become more economically prosperous and that they would demand democracy. Most could never have imagined how technology would evolve to get the CCP the tools they required to completely control information and public opinion by extension.
 

cryptoadam

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I think most truly believed that the Communist party could not last after the populace starting become more economically prosperous and that they would demand democracy. Most could never have imagined how technology would evolve to get the CCP the tools they required to completely control information and public opinion by extension.
Keep i mind the CCP is communist in name only, its a fascist government and state.
 
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dolabla

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Officially deemed a currency manipulator by the Trump administration:

The U.S. is counterpunching China in the latest battle royale that has become the U.S.-China trade war.

The Treasury Department on Monday officially declared China Opens a New Window. a currency Opens a New Window. manipulator, after the yuan fell to a more than 10-year low against the U.S. dollar overnight.

Secretary Steven Mnuchin, with the support of President Trump, determined that China is in fact unfairly influencing its currency – allegations that had been made by the president multiple times throughout the day.

“In recent days, China has taken concrete steps to devalue its currency, while maintaining substantial foreign exchange reserves despite active use of such tools in the past,” the Treasury Department’s statement read. “The context of these actions and the implausibility of China’s market stability rationale confirm that the purpose of China’s currency devaluation is to gain unfair competitive advantage in international trade.”

The Treasury Department will work with the International Monetary Fund to try to rectify the “unfair competitive advantage created by China’s latest actions.”






Fuck China
 

pramod

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We should have started this fight long ago. But oh well better late than never.
Just proves to me again that Trump was the president we needed, but maybe not the one we deserved.
 
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juliotendo

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China is fucked in the long run.

A lot of manufacturing is beginning to move to Vietnam as opposed to China, and despite the horrific war during the late 60s, Vietnam is now considered a strategic partner with the US and an enemy of China.
 

Dev1lXYZ

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Time for the international community to step up and declare that Hong Kong be independent of China. Time for those artificial islands made in the South China Sea international waters declared unlawful and carpet bombed. Companies that corroborate with the Chinese government like Google need to be formally warned to stop or face severe fines and possible seizure by the government.
 
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cryptoadam

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China is fucked in the long run.

A lot of manufacturing is beginning to move to Vietnam as opposed to China, and despite the horrific war during the late 60s, Vietnam is now considered a strategic partner with the US and an enemy of China.

China's big gamble is the one belt road, and its foray into Africa. One belt road right now is looking like it could turn into a big failure. And I think African's are starting to wake a bit to China.

What should be kept an eye on is where China is building military bases and ports. China is pushing hard to be able to project power across the globe. I think is economy is actually less of a concern. Debt is high in China and the housing bubble can burst at any moment.
 
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pramod

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If you think about it, if the US loses the trade war, Trump will get canned.
If China loses the trade war, their entire government could get canned.

So I don't think we should have any fantasies about a "win" against China. I think the best scenario we can hope for is some "half win" for both sides.
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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Vicetrailia

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Trump initially did all this tariffs stuff over the trade deficit between the two countries. And this continues to be the reason for the trade war.

The moral arguments are based on information that we learned mostly since Trump became president, but they are not the reason for the trade war.

If Trump shifts the reason to a moral one, he would get more support considering everything that is going on at China.

But for now he has not taken advantage of that, so support for the trade war will continue to be lower, especially considering all of the consequences.
 
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crowbrow

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Trump initially did all this tariffs stuff over the trade deficit between the two countries. And this continues to be the reason for the trade war.

The moral arguments are based on information that we learned mostly since Trump became president, but they are not the reason for the trade war.

If Trump shifts the reason to a moral one, he would get more support considering everything that is going on at China.

But for now he has not taken advantage of that, so support for the trade war will continue to be lower, especially considering all of the consequences.
He can't convincingly condenm China morally while spouting support to Saudi Arabia and even calling military action to protect another ruthless dictatorship. It would just fall on deaf ears as yet another instance of American hypocritical moral double standards.

China, being a communist country, has ironically learned to take advantage of the amoral capitalist system and has even managed to turn it against their main proponents.
 
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TheSadRanger

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China is fucked in the long run.

A lot of manufacturing is beginning to move to Vietnam as opposed to China, and despite the horrific war during the late 60s, Vietnam is now considered a strategic partner with the US and an enemy of China.
Much has been moved to Taiwan as well and who do you think China has been eyeing. Jingping isn't exactly quiet about getting Taiwan absorbed into China. He's flat out said that Taiwan will be unified with China.

Taiwan is just as large of a trading partner (bout the same in exports to U.S but Taiwan imports more from the U.S) as Vietnam.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china/taiwan
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/vietnam

China will never let Taiwan be and has always held a grudge since the Chinese Civil War. I don't think Xi Jinping has the patience to wait on Taiwan, he will make a move sometime in the next couple of years.
 

epicnemesis

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If apple didn’t have contingency factories lined up then they don’t deserve their excessive cash reserves. They’ve had a few years of escalating trade tensions to ramp up.
 
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