Katsura
Member
Yup. Everyone knows art made by a committee is far superior. Everyone loves a camel
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Chucklefish apologizes for Wargroove's whitewashed voice casting
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I can't believe they caved. Pathetic.
TriSuit666
Banned
Just a bunch of idiots racesplaining how they want something to be run. They’ve got no idea how the VA industry works, unfortunately that tweet thread kinda makes things worse.
nkarafo
Member
SJWs don't understand the concept of double standards.
Katsura
Member
I say let them be. It's nice to have all the idiots contained over there. We just have to show developers that catering to them is not the way to go
H4ze
Member
The Cartographer
Member
They are the embodiment of double standards.
ROMhack
Member
But this isn't art. It's WAR
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
It's like browsing what's at the checkout counter when you're standing in line.
You'll buy nothing or something small like a pack of gum or a chocolate bar. But every now and then there is still the urge to flip through the junky National Enquirer to see which celeb they photoshopped adding 100 lbs, or is claimed to be having a sexual relationship with a snowblower.
Whether it's true or not, who cares.
It's all about having laughs at idiots.
Herr Edgy
Member
The thing is, it's understandable wanting to have more minority representation.
People are up in arms about a just cause using the wrong means to an end (which is pretty much my own definition of SJWs), becoming villains/racists themselves.
All of this really comes from the perspective that 'punching up' is okay and 'punching down' is horrible; it uses a hierarchy as a base, implying that naturally a white male is simply above all others - that they are different because they are male, and white. Not saying that statistically, white males don't have some sort of advantage in some scenarios, but in the end I'm not being put into CEO position just because I'm a white guy. I have had and still have my fair share of problems in life and no, a minority person having problems too does not invalidate my own, simply because individuals are not statistics. I don't gain anything from the fact that the top 1% are white men and even if I were to become a top 1%, there are going to be millions of white people who still won't be there. I'm not a number.
It's morally just trying to bring awareness to subconscious bias (i.e., just bringing up the question about your own bias, then answering it: if your answer is still 'let's use a white male', that's okay too: you made a conscious choice instead of letting your subconscious influence you too easily), and dismissing that this bias exists by simply stating "lol just take the one best for the job" is too simple., even though I agree with the idea.
What is not just is trying to remove individuality of white people for the sake of some minority representation.
Simple scenario:
1000 voice actors, 100 of them a minority, all about the same skill level.
100 voice acting roles, 50 of them for minority characters (all actors are up to all of those roles in terms of skill).
In my mind, all those 1000 voice actors are just people. They are the same. Trying to live their lifes, earning money, advancing their careers, looking for opportunities.
If we give 50 of the voice acting roles to 50 of the 100 minority actors due to matching skin tone ('punching up' is okay), then distribute the leftover 50 'majority' roles evenly (we'll have to evenly distribute roles for white characters; if you matched white voice actors with white characters only, that would be wrong again, because it's 'punching down') we'll have 75 minority voice actors on 100 roles and 25 majority voice actors on 100 roles. Even if we didn't distribute the leftover roles evenly and instead proportional to the percentages of voice actors, we'd end up with 55 minority actors and 45 majority actors, due to wanting to be 'fair'.
Realistically, people's skills aren't going to be the same, especially not their voices. So a 55 minority + 45 majority actors distribution would be perfectly fine if no politics were being pushed and I'm sure most people here on GAF would not deny that.
The majority is called majority for a reason. Minorities need to be respected and people need to be aware of their subconscious bias, but pushing any farther than bringing this to attention is racism, textbook definition.
EDIT:
Maybe I went a bit offtopic.
I never like seeing small devs apologize for twitter outrage, because in the end, numbers in reality are much larger than anything we can fathom. Huge outcries on twitter account for a minimal number of people that you are trying to reach so even if you feel like you are in social media hell, it's not as big as you think it is. It's media blowing things up and the internet in general that things feel much bigger than they are. You are sharing yourself with the world, and most people just don't give a fuck and never will.
That being said it's also understandable that they don't want to risk anything. Livelihoods are at stake (or that's what they think), so just apologizing publicly is a small price to pay if you think it will help you secure your livelihood and also your ability to keep following your passion.
2nd EDIT:
Actually, I think it goes farther than just livelihoods. I think it's about the game dev space in general and that is in accordance with my own experiences.
Being indie means being public and being a manager in a big company means being public, too. It's only the 'lowly goons' in big companies that aren't visible.
Also, given that game dev is a heavily team oriented endeavor and the industry exploits people, networking becomes so much more important. Rather than just 'having the skill' (and the personality), it often comes down to faking your personality to improve your network. I've seen so many students and young studios presenting themselves in way that seem much more dishonest than just 'presenting your better side' - and not in regards to their customers, but to their own peers. Lots of game devs see other game devs as opportunities. That's why no one wants to show their individualistic sides. I think that's also largely the reason why many games are so stale nowadays. People surpress themselves in order to cater to other game dev people.
Just me posting here is honestly somewhat of a risk. I'm employed in a game tools company and we have connections to companies all over the world, even big ones that I'm not allowed to name. Realistically nothing is going to happen to me because I keep a low profile. I don't tweet (much, if at all), I don't make YouTube videos; the only thing I'm doing is posting here sometimes, really. But if I'm going to go the indie dev route at some point, you can bet that this post right here will get dragged through the mud were I to start becoming a bit more of a public person. If the first thing a future potential employer finds about me is accusations of racism, or a bit more personal, if I were to network with people and after the event they'd look me up and find a shitstorm on twitter about me being sexist or racist, you can bet that this will have professional consequences; not because people necessarily believe it, but because the game dev space is highly competitive and you don't want drama. You can always find someone your equal or someone better, without the drama.
So Chucklefish probably doesn't want to have negative publicity: not just because of potential loss of customers, but because of perceived loss of future possibilities in the game dev space.
People are up in arms about a just cause using the wrong means to an end (which is pretty much my own definition of SJWs), becoming villains/racists themselves.
All of this really comes from the perspective that 'punching up' is okay and 'punching down' is horrible; it uses a hierarchy as a base, implying that naturally a white male is simply above all others - that they are different because they are male, and white. Not saying that statistically, white males don't have some sort of advantage in some scenarios, but in the end I'm not being put into CEO position just because I'm a white guy. I have had and still have my fair share of problems in life and no, a minority person having problems too does not invalidate my own, simply because individuals are not statistics. I don't gain anything from the fact that the top 1% are white men and even if I were to become a top 1%, there are going to be millions of white people who still won't be there. I'm not a number.
It's morally just trying to bring awareness to subconscious bias (i.e., just bringing up the question about your own bias, then answering it: if your answer is still 'let's use a white male', that's okay too: you made a conscious choice instead of letting your subconscious influence you too easily), and dismissing that this bias exists by simply stating "lol just take the one best for the job" is too simple., even though I agree with the idea.
What is not just is trying to remove individuality of white people for the sake of some minority representation.
Simple scenario:
1000 voice actors, 100 of them a minority, all about the same skill level.
100 voice acting roles, 50 of them for minority characters (all actors are up to all of those roles in terms of skill).
In my mind, all those 1000 voice actors are just people. They are the same. Trying to live their lifes, earning money, advancing their careers, looking for opportunities.
If we give 50 of the voice acting roles to 50 of the 100 minority actors due to matching skin tone ('punching up' is okay), then distribute the leftover 50 'majority' roles evenly (we'll have to evenly distribute roles for white characters; if you matched white voice actors with white characters only, that would be wrong again, because it's 'punching down') we'll have 75 minority voice actors on 100 roles and 25 majority voice actors on 100 roles. Even if we didn't distribute the leftover roles evenly and instead proportional to the percentages of voice actors, we'd end up with 55 minority actors and 45 majority actors, due to wanting to be 'fair'.
Realistically, people's skills aren't going to be the same, especially not their voices. So a 55 minority + 45 majority actors distribution would be perfectly fine if no politics were being pushed and I'm sure most people here on GAF would not deny that.
The majority is called majority for a reason. Minorities need to be respected and people need to be aware of their subconscious bias, but pushing any farther than bringing this to attention is racism, textbook definition.
EDIT:
Maybe I went a bit offtopic.
I never like seeing small devs apologize for twitter outrage, because in the end, numbers in reality are much larger than anything we can fathom. Huge outcries on twitter account for a minimal number of people that you are trying to reach so even if you feel like you are in social media hell, it's not as big as you think it is. It's media blowing things up and the internet in general that things feel much bigger than they are. You are sharing yourself with the world, and most people just don't give a fuck and never will.
That being said it's also understandable that they don't want to risk anything. Livelihoods are at stake (or that's what they think), so just apologizing publicly is a small price to pay if you think it will help you secure your livelihood and also your ability to keep following your passion.
2nd EDIT:
Actually, I think it goes farther than just livelihoods. I think it's about the game dev space in general and that is in accordance with my own experiences.
Being indie means being public and being a manager in a big company means being public, too. It's only the 'lowly goons' in big companies that aren't visible.
Also, given that game dev is a heavily team oriented endeavor and the industry exploits people, networking becomes so much more important. Rather than just 'having the skill' (and the personality), it often comes down to faking your personality to improve your network. I've seen so many students and young studios presenting themselves in way that seem much more dishonest than just 'presenting your better side' - and not in regards to their customers, but to their own peers. Lots of game devs see other game devs as opportunities. That's why no one wants to show their individualistic sides. I think that's also largely the reason why many games are so stale nowadays. People surpress themselves in order to cater to other game dev people.
Just me posting here is honestly somewhat of a risk. I'm employed in a game tools company and we have connections to companies all over the world, even big ones that I'm not allowed to name. Realistically nothing is going to happen to me because I keep a low profile. I don't tweet (much, if at all), I don't make YouTube videos; the only thing I'm doing is posting here sometimes, really. But if I'm going to go the indie dev route at some point, you can bet that this post right here will get dragged through the mud were I to start becoming a bit more of a public person. If the first thing a future potential employer finds about me is accusations of racism, or a bit more personal, if I were to network with people and after the event they'd look me up and find a shitstorm on twitter about me being sexist or racist, you can bet that this will have professional consequences; not because people necessarily believe it, but because the game dev space is highly competitive and you don't want drama. You can always find someone your equal or someone better, without the drama.
So Chucklefish probably doesn't want to have negative publicity: not just because of potential loss of customers, but because of perceived loss of future possibilities in the game dev space.
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nkarafo
Member
Yeah but they don't realize it, that's why i said they don't understand the concept.
abstract alien
Member
Next up in game development: It is now required that you be the same nationality and of similar culture to the characters you develope and/or portray.
It's a joke, but not really.
It's a joke, but not really.
cormack12
Gold Member
Good post. There is a difference between acknowledging there are certain social and economic reasons for less diversity in the pool in the first place, and creating a punitive hierarchy for selection based on ethnicity. What they're saying is that - as you allude to - there would be 100 VA jobs, of which 25 are PoC. Those 25 roles should be reserved only for PoC to voice. The other 75 should be open to all comers. It a very rudimentary form of making yourself feel better because it feels 'good' at a superficial level.
Should doctors be selected by their skin colour in racially segregated communities with worse mortality rates, or should a white doctor get the job treating these people he can't identify with - off the back of his expensive privileged education.....
It can't work without creating a worst bias that already exists. There's a level of maturity required to acknowledge where and how the problem exists without being reactionary and creating a racially prejudiced 'correction' in the current job market. Of course, this falls on ears that are already ringing with the wails of self pity and 'woe is me'.
Shifty1897
Member
Just put in a REEE mode that makes every character non-white, changes gender pronouns to they/them, and disables the voice acting. Maybe also have the characters say some new lines randomly like "Labor unions are great!" and "No person is illegal!"
OutrageousFacts
Banned
This poting is disgraceful.
Chucklefish had ONE thing to do: *not* react to the crazies.
I have little sympathy now. They're being shit on by the outrage crowd and it was SO predictable.
I can but repeat myself: Dear developers, pls take this as lesson. Never give in to the outrage mob!
"IT'S NEVER ENOUGH"
Nickolaidas
Member
I disagree. When X-COM was announced to be rebooted as a first person shooter, the outrage mob made them cave and give us X-COM Enemy Unknown which not only was awesome, it also revitalized the genre.
Outrage can be beneficial, when done for the right reasons.
Can't stand it when game developers apologize for what they do because of social complaints. It's one thing to apologize if you release a broken game, you didnt include what was advertised and so on. But to apologize for shit like this? They have no backbone and can't even stand by their product.
Everytime someone apologizes for shit like this it gives the social media political correct mob a little more power and a little more influence. And those fucktards should have no power or influence.
Everytime someone apologizes for shit like this it gives the social media political correct mob a little more power and a little more influence. And those fucktards should have no power or influence.
Kev Kev
Member
Fuck that
Caving into to these crybabies who just want a piece of the “I’m offended by anything” action, and ultimately just want attention, is the fucking problem.
People are slowly starting to come around to not caving into these people who will literally complain about anything for that attention. This developer shouldn’t have caved and neither should any company that find itself in a similar situation in the future.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Caving in only accomplishes one thing. It empowers these feeble minded idiots.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Never apologize for doing nothing wrong.
Juke Joint Jezebel
Member
It was only a small handful of twitter users bitching and whining as well. Fucking weak!
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The Bloody-Nine
Member
'We demand an apology!'
Okay, sorry.
'Not good enough, someone has to be fired!'
It never ends with these retards.
Okay, sorry.
'Not good enough, someone has to be fired!'
It never ends with these retards.
Paracelsus
Member
Short answer: balls
Long answer: Protect from what? You know 99.99% of the complaints from that lunatic fringe are complete non-issues? What the hell were they gonna do, block the sales? Please.
Torrent of Pork
Banned
Don't ever apologise to those who don't make enough money to purchase your product in the first place.
PhoenixTank
Member
What do cherry picked posts from an Ion Fury thread (from August, no less) have to do with Chucklefish or Wargroove?
OH NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Apart from misleading people?
It was a stupid idea to not see this coming, given the current climate. I mean, I can't think of a single black voice actor myself, but people in casting should know that damn well even if they are outsiders to the videogame market.
It was even more stupid to apologize. Now the wokies will never let this go.
It was even more stupid to apologize. Now the wokies will never let this go.
ShinNL
Member
I love current GAF
NeoLed
Member
Even publisher as big as CDProjekt caved in. Looking at the bright side, no one lose their gigs or jobs
Paracelsus
Member
They wouldn't lose it anyway, they did nothing wrong.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Outrage culture : Give them an inch, they take a mile and complain it wasn't two miles.
Wasn't CDPR an all white cast when they made witcher?
Wasn't CDPR an all white cast when they made witcher?
Portugeezer
Member
It was a fine explanation (although we know some people would never be pleased).
Ar¢tos
Member
Question: By focusing and scrutinizing the race, attributes and background of every fictional character, aren't you just being.... Racist?
I thought the opposite of being racist was not caring about race, not caring even more to the point color charting voices or accents.
One of these days we will have every character of the same color, height, body shape, same face and voice, and ambiguous gender.
I thought the opposite of being racist was not caring about race, not caring even more to the point color charting voices or accents.
One of these days we will have every character of the same color, height, body shape, same face and voice, and ambiguous gender.
Ballthyrm
Member
There is only one correct form for a Dev apology. Patch notes.
I wish we had better tools for Devs to find what people are really annoyed about.
The default option will always favor the loudest voice.
Devs (especially indie ones) don't have the bandwidth to triage all that info.
It's a ton of ungrateful work for somebody like a community manager to find the things that can be acted upon.
Ar¢tos
Member
What I like in Japanese devs is that they usually don't engage directly with the player community, just patch things.
But they do care and hear about the complaints. I know 2 cases where devs asked the admins of the wikis of their games to report to them any bugs/issues that users posted on the wikis forum.
We hear a lot about scenes in games being changed when a JP game is releases in the west, but the dev never justifies why and just ignores the cries, there is nothing to win by justifying, people will always be mad either way.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Is it just me, or is there something just... bizarre about rating the quality of someone's apology? Setting aside that this is a complete non-issue to begin with, of course.
Anyway, I get why Chucklefish felt the need to say something. They're a small company, they're steadily growing, and if something were to blow up, that success could go to shit. Why take the chance? They were in a shitty situation.
Anyway, I get why Chucklefish felt the need to say something. They're a small company, they're steadily growing, and if something were to blow up, that success could go to shit. Why take the chance? They were in a shitty situation.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It's not you, it's the insanity of these retards.
Ballthyrm
Member
If you see it as a game like theses desk chairs activists, then you need to find a way to count fake internet points.
Maybe they think they are like Cherokees counting coups or some shit like that.
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Their overall goal is to flaunt and use their power against others.
They target a developer and get a response from the community at large, stirring up drama. What
But then the developer turns it around, offers a perfectly reasonable explanation, and politely apologizes.
If their goal was to better understand where the developer was coming from or even to "teach them a lesson", the apology would've been sufficient. But no, the developer's apology takes power away from the zealots. Their little mob has already been ruined before it could spin up and really get going. So the truest of believers cannot help but pout. "Harumph, meanie developer threw icewater on our tantrum". Inwardly, that's the sentiment, so outwardly they need to judge the apology itself with suspicion.
Chucklefish apologized, but didn't apologize hard enough. Most adults already grew out of this kind of schoolyard bullying environment a long time ago. A certain political ideology rewards and encourages this juvenile, stunted thinking in its adherents.
BadBurger
Is 'That Pure Potato'
"You didn't apologize hard enough", said the blue-haired unemployed 30-something on Twitter.
LazyParrot
Member
What are these people going to do once they realize that pretty much all Japanese games that got an English dub in the past 25 years didn't use Asian voice actors, even if the game was set in Japan and featured Japanese characters exclusively?