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Colin Moriarty of Kinda Funny: source says "most developers are not happy with PS4.5"

SneakersSO

Member
Aug 20, 2015
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Well 1 out of 1 developer is most of that sample of developers. So not really a lie, just left out that sample size part.
Going by Colin's earlier tweet before this one, its clear he has an anti-iterative console stance from the get-go, and hearing his comments after this tweet just reaffirm that.

This whole iterative console business is going to be very polarizing, as its easily the most ground-breaking thing to happen in the console space since motion controls. Personally, I think if iterative consoles means we get to build-up a digital library with our platform holders that will follow us for years & years to come, then i'm all for it.
 

CosmicQueso

Member
Feb 16, 2010
14,234
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0
Mars
Going by Colin's earlier tweet before this one, its clear he has an anti-iterative console stance from the get-go, and hearing his comments after this tweet just reaffirm that.

This whole iterative console business is going to be very polarizing, as its easily the most ground-breaking thing to happen in the console space since motion controls. Personally, I think if iterative consoles means we get to build-up a digital library with our platform holders that will follow us for years & years to come, then i'm all for it.
Well they lost most patreon supporters because of this. Most being my sample of 1 cancelling.
 

ninjablade

Banned
Dec 9, 2012
2,798
0
0
Before this gen, there were already people who were waiting on Slim models to jump in the generation. This Neo thing will probably amplify that just off the fact that it isn't just a "Slim model", it's a -more powerful- box altogether + the addition of 4K Blu-ray capability. I think that's a pretty big jump from the OGPS4. Sure, not everyone will wait, but the point is that this new direction will cause customers to be a lot more "wait and see "-ish when it comes to buying these boxes.
Most of these people you talk about on message boards have little do with the market. People have a hard time waiting for a year for something they want you think they will wait 3 years is just crazy, the people here that wait already own a pc for gaming, and buy consoles for exclusives, which obviously doesn't represent the market.
 

The God

Member
Mar 21, 2014
4,368
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0
Most of these people you talk about on message boards have little do with the market. People have a hard time waiting for a year for something they want you think they will wait 3 years is just crazy, the people here that wait already own a pc for gaming, and buy consoles for exclusives, which obviously doesn't represent the market.
Show me where I talked about people on message boards.
 

ninjablade

Banned
Dec 9, 2012
2,798
0
0
Show me where I talked about people on message boards.
When you said people waiting for a slim version, I figured you meant people on message boards, cause I can't imagine running across anybody in real life saying I'm gonna wait for the slim version.
 

Fredrik

Banned
Jun 27, 2005
7,344
0
0
Yes we are seeing some negativity but don't forget part of the reason for this is because this is new to consoles .
If this become the new norm i don't think we will see the negativity any more since people would know what to expect .
Consoles will just become like everything else and you chose the best time to jump.
With specs being a extra factor to think about along with everything else.
I'd say that the news factor is a tiny reason for the outrage.

I think it's mostly about that many of us has bought consoles early on, to get an early taste for a new gen while drooling at some previews of future releases and waiting for the awesome games to arrive, and now there is talk about new hardware coming out before we even got to play the games that got us to buy the PS4 in the first place.

If you go back to launch threads about PS4 or even just last years E3 threads I bet you can find a few posts about Gran Turismo 7, Last Guardian, Final Fantasy XV, FF7 Remake, Shenmue 3, The Last of Us 2, God of War 4, etc being valid reasons why you should buy a PS4.

And now we're supposed to get hyped about how much better those games will run and look on another box.

Generally speaking about upgrades becoming the norm on both PS and XB. I think the whole idea that a console purchase is a long time investment and future games to help justify the purchase is crushed at it's core. From now on it'll only be about what's actually out at this very moment and how great those games runs and looks right now. Future releases might have a higher spec box as the target.

Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc, even Turn 10 and Sucker Punch are in here, they're are all doing great, ironically so in some cases where there has been backlashes, but they're already developing their third wave titles or something like that.
But Look at Polyphony Digital, Rare, Sony Santa Monica, 343, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, etc where 2, 3 or 4 years dev cycles seems to be the norm. In these cases we'll be looking at 1 game per hardware iteration, tops. :/

The up-side to all this is that the devs can't throw out badly optimized rushed titles that barely push the hardware at the hardware launches anymore, and then wait 3 years to show their real skills, because now those launch titles might be the only games they'll get remembered by with anyone buying hardware day 1, they need to do their very best every time now.
 

Marty Chinn

Member
Jun 6, 2004
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1,585
This whole iterative console business is going to be very polarizing, as its easily the most ground-breaking thing to happen in the console space since motion controls. Personally, I think if iterative consoles means we get to build-up a digital library with our platform holders that will follow us for years & years to come, then i'm all for it.
But you don't need an iterative model to have that. We got that the second they switched architecture. You would get all you posted with traditional generations.
 

The God

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Mar 21, 2014
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0
When you said people waiting for a slim version, I figured you meant people on message boards, cause I can't imagine running across anybody in real life saying I'm gonna wait for the slim version.
come the fuck on lmao

So if Sony doesn't go the iOS route, do you expect the PS5 to sell as strongly or better than the PS4 at launch?
 

farisr

Member
Nov 5, 2011
10,188
1
635
When you said people waiting for a slim version, I figured you meant people on message boards, cause I can't imagine running across anybody in real life saying I'm gonna wait for the slim version.
Well you need to improve your imagination then because I personally know 3 people who were waiting for a slim revision, and these guys are not the online message board user type
 

nib95

Banned
Feb 26, 2007
34,618
2
0
Well you need to improve your imagination then because I personally know 3 people who were waiting for a slim revision, and these guys are not the online message board user type
Pretty much. The casual gaming market, which is by far the biggest in terms of consumer numbers, cares more about price than anything else, and yea, they are very much willing to wait, at least with respect to console gaming. I'm sure a large portion of that 40 million PS4 install base is now formed of some of the casual market, but there's still a massive number left. Plus the PS4's not quite at impulse buy pricing yet.

The PS4K is more aimed towards the core gaming or enthusiast console market imo.
 

ninjablade

Banned
Dec 9, 2012
2,798
0
0
Pretty much. The casual gaming market, which is by far the biggest in terms of consumer numbers, cares more about price than anything else, and yea, they are very much willing to wait, at least with respect to console gaming. I'm sure a large portion of that 40 million PS4 install base is now formed of some of the casual market, but there's still a massive number left. Plus the PS4's not quite at impulse buy pricing yet.

The PS4K is more aimed towards the core gaming or enthusiast console market imo.
I can imagine casual gamers waiting for the right price cause they just don't think it's worth the 300-350$ investment, but waiting 3 years just for a slimmer version or more powerful version when you really want the console, ok I'm sure there are people like that but a very small minority.


come the fuck on lmao

So if Sony doesn't go the iOS route, do you expect the PS5 to sell as strongly or better than the PS4 at launch?
Depends on how long this gen lasts, and what games start pushing for a new audience, this is something no one can answer now
 

Daft Punk

Banned
Oct 24, 2015
1,751
0
0
But you don't need an iterative model to have that. We got that the second they switched architecture. You would get all you posted with traditional generations.
Yes while waiting anywhere from 5-8 years before a new switch. If I knew that Sony could have hardware that runs my games even better and is coming in at a reasonable price, id be all for it.
 

wapplew

Member
Mar 1, 2012
13,775
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610
This whole iterative console business is going to be very polarizing, as its easily the most ground-breaking thing to happen in the console space since motion controls. Personally, I think if iterative consoles means we get to build-up a digital library with our platform holders that will follow us for years & years to come, then i'm all for it.
Business wise, iterative cycle it's relatively new to console, but it couldn't be more save and unimaginative from software & hardware stand point. It's the most anti ground-breaking concept.
Also, backward compatible digital library have nothing to do with business model. All we need is future hardware stay within similar architecture, we don't need quick iteration to achieve that goal.
 

Hexa

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May 31, 2013
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Business wise, iterative cycle it's relatively new to console, but it couldn't be more save and unimaginative from software & hardware stand point. It's the most anti ground-breaking concept.
Also, backward compatible digital library have nothing to do with business model. All we need future hardware stay within similar architecture, we don't need quick iteration to achieve that goal.
They're both dependent on the same thing and hence both are likely to go hand in hand because iterative consoles isn't just a business decision. They're only happening now because they've completely abandoned the idea of exotic hardware and seem to be permanently going with standard tech. Backwards compatibility is only guaranteed if they keep the same architecture between generations as you said. Otherwise things can get complicated. In the same vein, an iterative console cycle is only effective if you're using mass market tech that advances at a considerable pace without heavy investment from platform holders. Otherwise it's a lot more expensive.
 

wapplew

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Mar 1, 2012
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They're both dependent on the same thing and hence both are likely to go hand in hand because iterative consoles isn't just a business decision. They're only happening now because they've completely abandoned the idea of exotic hardware and seem to be permanently going with standard tech. Backwards compatibility is only guaranteed if they keep the same architecture between generations as you said. Otherwise things can get complicated. In the same vein, an iterative console cycle is only effective if you're using mass market tech that advances at a considerable pace without heavy investment from platform holders. Otherwise it's a lot more expensive.
I understand what you mean.
I just want to clarify backward compatible or "digital library follow you for years" doesn't necessary mean console have to copy iOS/PC model. Traditional model can have BC no problem, just see WiiU.

Tired of people keep using BC to justify iOS/PC business model. I'm not against the idea of mid gen enhance hardware, I'll be there day 1. I just don't like console potentially adapting iOS/PC model.
 

Marty Chinn

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Jun 6, 2004
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Yes while waiting anywhere from 5-8 years before a new switch. If I knew that Sony could have hardware that runs my games even better and is coming in at a reasonable price, id be all for it.
That's a completely different argument though. I'm pointing out that iterative consoles don't suddenly bring that to the table. That's been on the table already for years.
 

edotlee

Member
Nov 28, 2012
501
629
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Colin is the reason I have a hard time listening to their podcast.

I don't even think he likes games or playing them.

He is negative, pessimistic, selfish, and sounds miserable and always tired.

He makes statements that he acts like or claims are facts on the podcast, but never backs it up with where he gets the information or the source. He acts like he knows. It's frustrating to hear.

He makes their podcast a hard to listen to miserable experience. His co-host however, is positive, fun, enjoyable, and always sounds extremely happy and energetic.

Regarding his tweet and the topic of this thread, I want to know how many developers? 1, 2, 50? How many development studios / companies are these developers spread across? Were these all in the same studio? What kind of developers? What range of titles or backgrounds do these developers have?

Without any information except what he has stated I call bullshit and take his statement as just that. A statement, of his opinion.
Yeah, Colin is okay when he doesn't go on rants. Unfortunately, he goes on them fairly often and makes it difficult to listen to. He talks in a "if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-wrong" kind of way that's very off putting.
 

Kralamoonard

Member
Mar 23, 2015
2,643
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0
UK
Colin is the reason I have a hard time listening to their podcast.

I don't even think he likes games or playing them.

He is negative, pessimistic, selfish, and sounds miserable and always tired.
Well now you're just being overly facetious with that BS. How can you seriously think that?? Talk about a full on character assassination.

Dude, he probably plays more games than us two put together lol.
 

spiky

Neo Member
Apr 4, 2016
18
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0
I'd say that the news factor is a tiny reason for the outrage.

I think it's mostly about that many of us has bought consoles early on, to get an early taste for a new gen while drooling at some previews of future releases and waiting for the awesome games to arrive, and now there is talk about new hardware coming out before we even got to play the games that got us to buy the PS4 in the first place.

If you go back to launch threads about PS4 or even just last years E3 threads I bet you can find a few posts about Gran Turismo 7, Last Guardian, Final Fantasy XV, FF7 Remake, Shenmue 3, The Last of Us 2, God of War 4, etc being valid reasons why you should buy a PS4.

And now we're supposed to get hyped about how much better those games will run and look on another box.

Generally speaking about upgrades becoming the norm on both PS and XB. I think the whole idea that a console purchase is a long time investment and future games to help justify the purchase is crushed at it's core. From now on it'll only be about what's actually out at this very moment and how great those games runs and looks right now. Future releases might have a higher spec box as the target.

Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc, even Turn 10 and Sucker Punch are in here, they're are all doing great, ironically so in some cases where there has been backlashes, but they're already developing their third wave titles or something like that.
But Look at Polyphony Digital, Rare, Sony Santa Monica, 343, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, etc where 2, 3 or 4 years dev cycles seems to be the norm. In these cases we'll be looking at 1 game per hardware iteration, tops. :/

The up-side to all this is that the devs can't throw out badly optimized rushed titles that barely push the hardware at the hardware launches anymore, and then wait 3 years to show their real skills, because now those launch titles might be the only games they'll get remembered by with anyone buying hardware day 1, they need to do their very best every time now.
This.

To have games that run well enough on the previous gen while also pushing the new gen far enough to entice people into upgrading is going to be tough on devs.
 

SneakersSO

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Aug 20, 2015
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But you don't need an iterative model to have that. We got that the second they switched architecture. You would get all you posted with traditional generations.
This isn't about the 'traditional' console business. This entire move is about adhering to consumer purchasing habits in the here & now. Consumers buy electronics with faster turn arounds & quicker capability refreshes, even if those iterations are mostly smaller steps. Heck, we're seeing 4K adoption starting to take off now, when most analyst were saying the marketplace wouldn't adopt another TV set after the big conversion to HD televisions occurred, and that took a decade.

The data I think that both Sony & MS saw was that the market perception for the tech within a console is considered way less valuable in the back-half of a console generation, and refreshing the hardware is a means to stifle that concern. With these consoles, you aren't just asking people to buy a plastic box, you're asking consumers to invest in each platform. And as much as we'd like to think the design of these APUs will carry our digital library forward, there will come a point where a fundamental refresh on these APUs has to occur. That part is inevitable. So maybe refreshing the tech in these consoles is the means by which they buy enough time so that we reach a point both on their end and on the consumer end, where cloud-rendered game-streaming is fully possible, and they eliminate hardware from the equation entirely, and fully transfer to a 'games-as-a-service' model.
 

SneakersSO

Member
Aug 20, 2015
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Business wise, iterative cycle it's relatively new to console, but it couldn't be more save and unimaginative from software & hardware stand point. It's the most anti ground-breaking concept.
Also, backward compatible digital library have nothing to do with business model. All we need is future hardware stay within similar architecture, we don't need quick iteration to achieve that goal.
I wouldn't necessarily describe this move as 'safe'. Sure, in their current implementation, at least on Sony's part, its safe because their current install-base is still being supported & is actively generating them a profit & is pushing software development, and Sony is co-branding this console with a media format that is both taking off & is currently content starved.

However, this is still hardware they are producing that has to be sold. It's going to be Sony's job to ensure they get the marketing on this right.

Also, BC is very much a part of the consumer consciousness to some degree. No, not necessarily as a selling point, but rather, as a form of ownership. Consumers that buy software now evaluate said software very differently than they were in 2008. You look at how people approach purchasing apps, and some form of digital legacy or access to that software on that platform is expected, even if the person never intends on using that app again once they are done with it. Think about it - how many paid apps on your phone do you currently 'own' right now & never use? How many Steam games fall under the same category? This is the market reality of consumers who buy software in 2016. This was going to extend to consumers making software purchases on consoles going forward.

Edit:

Bah, sorry for the double post. I suck :(
 

SolidSnakeUS

Member
Aug 1, 2013
8,394
1
0
Yeah, Colin is okay when he doesn't go on rants. Unfortunately, he goes on them fairly often and makes it difficult to listen to. He talks in a "if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-wrong" kind of way that's very off putting.
"Don't tread on me."
 

ZehDon

Member
Jun 13, 2013
3,006
3,471
690
Australia
I don't understand why people are getting it the other way around. The PS4 is not the "weaker" hardware. It is what it is and will be what it would have been without the Neo on the market. The Neo is just more powerful. It's a glass-half-full situation here.
It might not have been clear, but I was referring to a hypothetical PS5/PS5Neo situation, as opposed to the PS4, wherein the PS5Neo is a known quantity when the PS5 is made available. In this situation, the PS5 can adequately be described as the weaker hardware, because it's already known better hardware will be available.

You're really overestimating the patience of early adopters. Even if it was known 3 years ago that Sony was going with a PS4 upgrade in 2016, would hardocre Playstation fans be just playing their PS3's this whole time?
I believe your misunderstanding my point.

The people who are expressing "Yes! PS4K! Day 1!". Yeah, they're the people who will buy the PS5 at launch, and then also buy the PS5Neo when its available. They're the hardcore, the dedicated. Dropping $999.00 across two consoles in the span of three years is A-OK by them. On the other hand, the people who don't like the PS4k and the fundamental shift it represents, or who simply cannot afford to purchase yet another new console? They're the people who won't be buying a PS5 at launch, because it's a poor overall value proposition. Outside of the first year, we're not really talking about "early adopters" anymore, just customers. By the time the PS4Neo/PS5Neo rolls around, we're talking about "mainstream consumers".

My point was that the latter will outnumber the former through basic consumer spending and market forces. This is because consumers are pretty good at flocking to the best deal, and the PS4Neo/PS5Neo is just straight up objectively superior. My proposal was that this would trigger a negative cycle. The PS5, with the PS5Neo being a known quantity, would see less early adoption rates. Sony simply will not sell ~40 PS5s before the mid-gen revision, because we know the mid-gen revision is going to be objectively superior. This means longer cross-gen support till the user base ticks up, thus, less exclusive developer support, higher developer risk in supporting fewer hardware sales, in turn triggering slower adoption rates, and round and round it goes. Until the PS5Neo launches, which is the best value proposition for everyone, and people jump on board. Which begs the question - what's the point of the PS5 in a market with mid-gen revisions?
 

nib95

Banned
Feb 26, 2007
34,618
2
0
I'd say that the news factor is a tiny reason for the outrage.

I think it's mostly about that many of us has bought consoles early on, to get an early taste for a new gen while drooling at some previews of future releases and waiting for the awesome games to arrive, and now there is talk about new hardware coming out before we even got to play the games that got us to buy the PS4 in the first place.

If you go back to launch threads about PS4 or even just last years E3 threads I bet you can find a few posts about Gran Turismo 7, Last Guardian, Final Fantasy XV, FF7 Remake, Shenmue 3, The Last of Us 2, God of War 4, etc being valid reasons why you should buy a PS4.

And now we're supposed to get hyped about how much better those games will run and look on another box.

Generally speaking about upgrades becoming the norm on both PS and XB. I think the whole idea that a console purchase is a long time investment and future games to help justify the purchase is crushed at it's core. From now on it'll only be about what's actually out at this very moment and how great those games runs and looks right now. Future releases might have a higher spec box as the target.

Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc, even Turn 10 and Sucker Punch are in here, they're are all doing great, ironically so in some cases where there has been backlashes, but they're already developing their third wave titles or something like that.
But Look at Polyphony Digital, Rare, Sony Santa Monica, 343, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, etc where 2, 3 or 4 years dev cycles seems to be the norm. In these cases we'll be looking at 1 game per hardware iteration, tops. :/

The up-side to all this is that the devs can't throw out badly optimized rushed titles that barely push the hardware at the hardware launches anymore, and then wait 3 years to show their real skills, because now those launch titles might be the only games they'll get remembered by with anyone buying hardware day 1, they need to do their very best every time now.
Definitely agree with a lot of this post, especially about how a lot of the tent pole exclusives I bought the system for, will end up being ones I'll likely first play on the PS4K. It's frankly extremely disappointing.
 

wapplew

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Mar 1, 2012
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I wouldn't necessarily describe this move as 'safe'. Sure, in their current implementation, at least on Sony's part, its safe because their current install-base is still being supported & is actively generating them a profit & is pushing software development, and Sony is co-branding this console with a media format that is both taking off & is currently content starved.

However, this is still hardware they are producing that has to be sold. It's going to be Sony's job to ensure they get the marketing on this right.

Also, BC is very much a part of the consumer consciousness to some degree. No, not necessarily as a selling point, but rather, as a form of ownership. Consumers that buy software now evaluate said software very differently than they were in 2008. You look at how people approach purchasing apps, and some form of digital legacy or access to that software on that platform is expected, even if the person never intends on using that app again once they are done with it. Think about it - how many paid apps on your phone do you currently 'own' right now & never use? How many Steam games fall under the same category? This is the market reality of consumers who buy software in 2016. This was going to extend to consumers making software purchases on consoles going forward.

Edit:

Bah, sorry for the double post. I suck :(

I understand your concept, you want console become OS base business, I owned plenty of those devices.
I'm not against that idea. I'm just saying console can become OS base business with traditional generation cycle.

Also, consumer purchasing habits haven't change. It's been that way on every other tech sector since forever. We buy phone knowing new phone coming out every years since the beginning of mobile phone in the 70's, same go for PC, Mac, Cars.
Console have no problem keeping traditional cycle before, why they have to adapt now?
 

justsomeguy

Member
Sep 14, 2013
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0
375
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Personally, I think if iterative consoles means we get to build-up a digital library with our platform holders that will follow us for years & years to come, then i'm all for it.
Hold on, weren't you really vocal in the xbox 1.5 threads (or maybe the uwp threads) that any move ms made away from single fixed platform was a nighmare for developers and you were firmly against it? Why the change of heart, or have I misremembered your point? (and apols if I have - mobile so cant easily hit post history)

edit: Yes, here we go, here's your views when it was discussed as an XBox plan:

If you add in another console, in particular one that is sub-dividing one ecosystem, you still have to code to that console's strengths & weaknesses. Even if we go with the assumption that the APU is identical but with higher clock speeds on the processors, we still have to do a ton of individual debugging & QA in order to ensure a solid performance.

Most console games only ship with the assets & configurations that the console would be able to support. The overwhelming majority of console games, save for a few exceptions, do not allow you to change specific graphical settings in their game. So its not like we're just gonna ship an Xbox version of a game, have that one disc run on two different machines, and have each machine choose the graphical settings of the game. That adds some other significant issues we'd have to QA for that I don't even want to begin thinking about.

Is it just that your thinking's moved on since then?
 

Muzicfreq

Banned
Dec 16, 2014
4,007
0
0
I wonder if it's because they haven't had to deal with "low" and "high" settings tests on the consoles.

I think they'll be okay with it over a few years.
Let me add some more paper work on your already filled schedule

You'll get used to it in a few months
 

Jacksinthe

Banned
May 26, 2014
6,237
0
0
Chicago, IL
Let me add some more paper work on your already filled schedule

You'll get used to it in a few months
Not used to it, restructure.

Don't forget most games outside of a few platform exclusives are on PC. Devs are already partitioning performance for different hardware configurations on PC.

This will add some dev time for testing and other stuff but not complete overhauls - but the final word on wether or not this will make a good ROI is consumer adoption and satisfaction. If that doesn't exist, devs will quickly push back and refuse to adopt the platform.
 

SneakersSO

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Aug 20, 2015
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Also, consumer purchasing habits haven't change. It's been that way on every other tech sector since forever. We buy phone knowing new phone coming out every years since the beginning of mobile phone in the 70's, same go for PC, Mac, Cars.
Console have no problem keeping traditional cycle before, why they have to adapt now?
They're adapting now partially in part because console sales are down now across the board. The only one doing the numbers that they should be is Sony. Even if Sony doubled their marketshare to 80 million over the next 3 years, and MS doubled theirs to 40 in the same time frame, its still way, way smaller of a marketshare for a cumulative generation. Theres a ton of reasons for this market shrinkage, and no, an iterative console approach won't fix or address a myriad of issues 2016 consumers face. But this is an approach manufacturers want to try.

Hold on, weren't you really vocal in the xbox 1.5 threads (or maybe the uwp threads) that any move ms made away from single fixed platform was a nighmare for developers and you were firmly against it? Why the change of heart, or have I misremembered your point? (and apols if I have - mobile so cant easily hit post history)

Is it just that your thinking's moved on since then?
Hey, thanks for bringing this up. I actually still maintain it is gonna be more debugging & QA work, although the amount has certainly diminished as i've spoken to colleagues with new things coming to light, especially all this NEO business, which wasn't even on my radar back then (it sorta was - I had been told Sony was investigating a new Playstation. I just thought it was typical R&D, not an iterated PS4).

All of what we discussed back then was speculative, with the major issue being if any components in the APU changed and how much work would need to be done by individual dev teams if the console's featured an equivalent APU. Now that the picture has become clearer on how much extra work we're talking, and we have an idea on what the standards are going to be for at least one of these new machines, I can definitely take a step back & have more of an open mind about it.
 

mckmas8808

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May 24, 2005
45,058
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Really? You'd be happy about a constant cycle of iterative releases? That's possibly the worst thing that could happen imo, and guarantee's stifled progress in terms of tech and design, as new, vastly more powerful hardware will be forever held back by older, far more inferior hardware. The equivalent would be something akin to a permanent state of cross gen game releases.

I really, really hope the PS5 is still a thing, and that it isn't iterative, and isn't tied down or held back by either the PS4, or the PS4K. I want next gen advanced hardware that isn't held back in any way, where devs are allowed to truly extract the absolute most from it, from the ground up, without consideration of inferior products.
I think it's possible that the PS5 is going to be a big jump, "because" the PS NEO exist. I could be that Sony is preparing for this generation to last 7 years and is creating the NEO as a stop gap to make it easier to wait longer for the PS5 to come out.

Without the NEO they may feel the pressure to release the PS5 earlier than they'd like.
 

wapplew

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Mar 1, 2012
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They're adapting now partially in part because console sales are down now across the board. The only one doing the numbers that they should be is Sony. Even if Sony doubled their marketshare to 80 million over the next 3 years, and MS doubled theirs to 40 in the same time frame, its still way, way smaller of a marketshare for a cumulative generation. Theres a ton of reasons for this market shrinkage, and no, an iterative console approach won't fix or address a myriad of issues 2016 consumers face. But this is an approach manufacturers want to try.
Gaming market in general is growing, the different is, it used to be all the money go to console and PC, because they are the only devices that provide gaming experience and now mobile take away big chuck of that cake.
This approach you talking about, at the very best can slow down the shrink, i don't think it can take back the lost cake this way.
It only milk more money out of existing market to offset the lost.
I think they should keep making unique experience that mobile can't provide, adapting similar model only make them more alike and console can't really compete with mobile strength.
 

mckmas8808

Member
May 24, 2005
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Lol, the PS6 doesn't replace a PS5Neo the same way a PS5Neo utterly replaces a PS5. Apples and organes. Consumers will shift to the most cost effective solution - which is the neo revision. If Sony are banking on desperate gamers buying weaker hardware because they think they can't wait, they're going to lose out.

LOL! This PS4K news is making people go crazy. If the PS5 comes out in 2020 and is a 10 Tereflop console with 64 GBs of RAM, a GPU built on 7 nm with NextGen\HBM2 memory, and the new UHD Bluray standard with 100 GBs of space........then gamers will want to flock to it SOOOOO fast your head will spin.

There's no way on God's green Earth the PS NEO can compete with a console that has the hardware that I list above. It's literally not possible. God of War 5 being made on a disc with 100 GBs of space, using 7 TFs of GPU power, and using 50 GBs of RAM can not run on the PS NEO. This is why you will want to buy the PS5!
 

wapplew

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Mar 1, 2012
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LOL! This PS4K news is making people go crazy. If the PS5 comes out in 2020 and is a 10 Tereflop console with 64 GBs of RAM, a GPU built on 7 nm with NextGenHBM2 memory, and the new UHD Bluray standard with 100 GBs of space........then gamers will want to flock to it SOOOOO fast your head will spin.

There's no way on God's green Earth the PS NEO can compete with a console that has the hardware that I list above. It's literally not possible. God of War 5 being made on a disc with 100 GBs of space, using 7 TFs of GPU power, and using 50 GBs of RAM can not run on the PS NEO. This is why you will want to buy the PS5!
I think this is very likely the case.
PS5 simply can't achieve 8-10x power jump at 2018 and Sony don't think PS4 alone have the power to last until 2020, that why we got PS4K as compromise.
 

Movalpolos

Banned
Aug 12, 2015
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Colin is the reason I have a hard time listening to their podcast.

I don't even think he likes games or playing them.

He is negative, pessimistic, selfish, and sounds miserable and always tired.

He makes statements that he acts like or claims are facts on the podcast, but never backs it up with where he gets the information or the source. He acts like he knows. It's frustrating to hear.

He makes their podcast a hard to listen to miserable experience. His co-host however, is positive, fun, enjoyable, and always sounds extremely happy and energetic.

Regarding his tweet and the topic of this thread, I want to know how many developers? 1, 2, 50? How many development studios / companies are these developers spread across? Were these all in the same studio? What kind of developers? What range of titles or backgrounds do these developers have?

Without any information except what he has stated I call bullshit and take his statement as just that. A statement, of his opinion.
This is pretty nitpicky, but Colin's tweet still just irks me from a journalistic point of view. Like, I understand the limitations of twitter and that he can't go into exact specifics to protect his source, but he knew exactly what he was doing by sending such an extremely vague tweet at that time when people were starving for any news on this topic. Using language like "most" and "extra nonsense" without really breaking down exactly what he means either in subsequent tweets or even better, a video, would add some much needed meat to this.

Whatever. This just seems gossipy rather than reporting when you put something so juicy out there that draws the response that it did and not expound on it or clarify it really at all.
Absolutely accurate.
 

thelastword

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Apr 7, 2006
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Common sense. You really think most devs would bother patching their 2-3 year-old games to look/run better?
I think they would though, I can see shadowfall getting a 1080p 60fps patch on NEO where they cut out that reprojection BS they did for launch, whilst also boosting textures, AF and effects. I can also see Sucker Punch making ISS and FL 1080p 60fps. I can see a patch for the order 1886 and Driveclub to make them 1080 60fps, GTA5 with the new DLC can get a boost to 1080p 60fps as well.

Third party games like BF4 and Hardline can now get a locked 1080p 60fps with max assets, they might opt for a higher resolution like 3260x2160 for Unity and Syndicate improve the AF and asset quality and lock it at 30fps with good AA or go for 1080p 60fps with med-high assets. Games that had very bad PS4 versions and got flack, I think developers from said games would definitely see the need to upgrade their products, especially if they have further DLC to come or GOTY editions planned. I can see a proper console release of Witcher 3 being a thing. I'm also willing to take a bet that Rocksteady will enhance AK for NEO. I think you will be surprised at how many devs/publishers have reason or see it fit to enhance their older games for the NEO.

By this sentiment, why even have new generations? Why haven't console manufacturers just made every new console backwards compatible? The reason for new generations un-anchored by older ones, is because consumers like progress and want to see comprehensive jumps in technology, fidelity and design, not just meagre ones, especially for hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money. You take that away, and you make improvements more incremental or less substantial, and you run the risk of limiting value proposition perception, and garnering less interest from potential consumers.
Comprehensive jumps in technology was mostly achieved through exotic and custom hardware by the manufacturers. We're talking a huge investment in R&D, that didn't or don't always pay up in the end. Then we would have customers expecting a console of upwards of $1000 in BOM for great hardware and manufacture to be sold at $300-400 or else they won't buy. They'd say such a console sold for $500, $600-$700 or even $800 is too much and won't support. So in the grand scheme of things, such business models don't make sense anymore, we all know what happened when a manufacturer tried a $600 console, some adjustments had to be made to get a more comfortable price point for greater market adoption.

The thing is, the people who are most vocal or adamant of how the market must be are not always right. Most times they speak only for themselves or a niche group. I still remember how many people made noise about BC, but yet there was a $600 console with full BC and now it was too expensive. People want great things, but fail to realize it comes at a cost, just like a having a NEO like console in 2013 would cost much more than $400.00, so you can't ask for that and expect the manufacturer to the burn all the time by subsidizing hardware.

It's also just much harder now to survive in the marketplace, things are complex, some business ventures dont' pan out, so you don't keep the status QUO going, you adapt or it's bye bye business. Imagine you as a manufacturer invested a 1 billion in R&D of a console that launches in 2013, lets say you fitted a custom 980+i5 combo and sold it at $500.00, you know you already losing a tonne on hardware alone. Then you've got to make investments in software to bolster adoption of your new found console behemoth, because I'll tell you this, persons would still come out and say "they aren't buying a console for $500.00, cause' that's way too much".

So you have to secure some exclusives to sweeten the deal. If these exclusives bomb and don't sell, that's a bigger money pit, that would probably be unrecoverable for the whole generation or ever. The risk and chance of bankruptcy or abject failure for such a venture is much too great in this present climate. Console manufacturers are cutting their losses all the time, even this gen with lower R&D, many dev shops have been cut or have closed down in the last few years, it's not the best climate to be making such huge investments with such massive probabilities for failure. That time is over.

I think x86 and AMD with their APU's have been this generation's savior, so it was a good pickup by Sony. The technology is moving hard and fast and more GPU and CPU power is going to come through quick, with less power draw and reduced silicon whilst also sporting higher efficiencies. The roadmap is there, it's perfect for consoles, Sony can iterate even faster and offer a much more powerful unit for the same price just 3 years later is a good thing, hell, the PS3 is still $300.00 for a 500GB unit in 2016 (the slim one at that, with the smaller MB, shrinked dies and less power draw).


I never expected about 390x performance on a console GPU in 2016, but there we have it, and we all know what first parties are able to do with much less in a closed box, but the biggest takeway is this; it's only at a bitepoint of $400 for the consumer.....so all I'm seeing is greater power at a great price, a very marketable one, even for current PS4 owners.

As for PS5, I think you may think this limits PS5 to be powerful, but just take a look at the AMD roadmap, I think the specs for PS5 will be much greater than Navi and much greater than Zen and Vega which is before Navi is a beast as it is. In 2020, I can see the PS5 harbouring whatever GPU comes after Navi Coupled with Zen 2.0. So you can bet the PS5 will be a beast. All of that without Sony spending a fortune in R&D and losing a fortune at launch.

Sounds like you just don't understand Colin or his humor. To say he doesn't seem to like games means you haven't listened to them much or at all.

And on the podcast he specifically said one developer.
WOW, one developer out of one, translates to the majority of developers in the industry, and yet people want to take a vague tweet as gospel and break matchsticks in their ears when other developers say differently.....Hmmmm.

Wait, what? So "most developers" from his tweet is actually one developer. So the tweet is basically a lie?
Only in this industry do journalists say anything and they don't have to prove it, is it because they know certain people will just lap it up and use unsubstantiated tweets as facts?

I thought choosing AMD and x86 are more about save R&D and production cost, not necessary about BC.
Cell can have BC if they make stronger chip base on same architecture, just like Nintendo system always have BC even they are not using x86.
x86 makes BC much easier without costing the manufacturer an arm and a leg and gimping current hardware. PS2 chipsets in the PS3 meant that the extra money used for the GS+EE could have been used to making the PS3 more powerful, perhaps a much better RSX/GPU.


"most people don't like videogames"

well, i mean i only asked one person and she said she didn't...

come on
Perhaps that one developer is his cousin from high school who is just getting into games production. You never know, when you leave things as vague as this, it lends to lots of speculation. Also, if you don't come out and give more tidbits when the whole internet is talking about your tweet, then you basically had no ground to stand on in the first place. Even now that we know it's one dev and it was a lie, I would still like to know if this is an A, AA or AAA dev, what type of work he has done, the quality of his titles etc..

This is pretty nitpicky, but Colin's tweet still just irks me from a journalistic point of view. Like, I understand the limitations of twitter and that he can't go into exact specifics to protect his source, but he knew exactly what he was doing by sending such an extremely vague tweet at that time when people were starving for any news on this topic. Using language like "most" and "extra nonsense" without really breaking down exactly what he means either in subsequent tweets or even better, a video, would add some much needed meat to this.

Whatever. This just seems gossipy rather than reporting when you put something so juicy out there that draws the response that it did and not expound on it or clarify it really at all.
Yeah, pretty much my point.

I'd say that the news factor is a tiny reason for the outrage.

I think it's mostly about that many of us has bought consoles early on, to get an early taste for a new gen while drooling at some previews of future releases and waiting for the awesome games to arrive, and now there is talk about new hardware coming out before we even got to play the games that got us to buy the PS4 in the first place.

If you go back to launch threads about PS4 or even just last years E3 threads I bet you can find a few posts about Gran Turismo 7, Last Guardian, Final Fantasy XV, FF7 Remake, Shenmue 3, The Last of Us 2, God of War 4, etc being valid reasons why you should buy a PS4.

And now we're supposed to get hyped about how much better those games will run and look on another box.

Generally speaking about upgrades becoming the norm on both PS and XB. I think the whole idea that a console purchase is a long time investment and future games to help justify the purchase is crushed at it's core. From now on it'll only be about what's actually out at this very moment and how great those games runs and looks right now. Future releases might have a higher spec box as the target.

Ubisoft, EA, Activision etc, even Turn 10 and Sucker Punch are in here, they're are all doing great, ironically so in some cases where there has been backlashes, but they're already developing their third wave titles or something like that.
But Look at Polyphony Digital, Rare, Sony Santa Monica, 343, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, etc where 2, 3 or 4 years dev cycles seems to be the norm. In these cases we'll be looking at 1 game per hardware iteration, tops. :/

The up-side to all this is that the devs can't throw out badly optimized rushed titles that barely push the hardware at the hardware launches anymore, and then wait 3 years to show their real skills, because now those launch titles might be the only games they'll get remembered by with anyone buying hardware day 1, they need to do their very best every time now.
You've made some pretty solid points for the flip and perhaps the best ones I've seen, but look at a dev like Poliphony, they barely gave us two GT's last gen and GT6 was sent out to die at the end of a very long generation. The same can be said about GOW-ascension. TLG is still not out yet and Santa Monica hasn't given us anything yet. We have yet to see a new DMC or NG game. FF, seems to be taking forever and where is Deep Down?....

Let's be honest, many devs are taking their sweet time, by the time they release their wares PC GPU's would be exceedingly better. Maybe it is that they are struggling with current hardware where they can't even produce the great graphical trailers they wowed us with. All I'm seeing are gameplay vids with lots of shimmering, subhd and toxic framerates. If we're only going to get one FF this gen, it might as well look the best it can be. We're clearly not seeing trilogies in franchises this generation, even if it was only the PS4 and no Neo. x86 arch and a smoother dev environment also ensures that dedicated devs can pull most out of the hardware on first try, well, much more as opposed to exotic hardware.

Honestly, if your game is really great, ignore that Neo even exists. It shouldn't matter, because content is king and not numbers like resolution. It's about the experience, right?
Content is king...yes, but great content at high resolutions, better framerates and higher quality assets is even better.
 

Movalpolos

Banned
Aug 12, 2015
5,206
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Next time I see Colin at E3 or any other similar event, I will approach him personally on the subject of his tweet.
 

Freeman

Banned
Aug 23, 2013
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I think that for people to embrace a more iterative consoles approach we need to be reassured that our library of games is going to work on future PS machines going forward.

If we get a transition as shitty as the PS3 to PS4 was every time they release a numbered PS, there is just no point.