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[NullPointer]

More armed citizens in that crowd would have been a good thing. Lives would probably have been saved.

Maybe, maybe not. But one of the guys who pinned the shooter down was packing heat, but didn't see the need to use it by that point.

And that mugshot is honestly one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen. He's no longer a human being in my book.

 

[Digital Enhancement]

That's the creepiest mugshot I've ever seen.

 

[polyh3dron]

Mugshot.

 

[LocoMrPollock]

What he meant is that it wasn't a "legitimate" way to use his gun. Criminals wouldn't stop using guns because of a law. Gun laws do not stop shooting like this one. See: Canada.

I disagree. This dude was probably too off to even obtain a gun through illegal means.

He was able to walk-in to a store on November 30th and purchase a gun with no hurdles at all and now 6 people are dead, including a child.

You take that away, or at least make people jump through more hoops before giving them a weapon and this probably would not have happened.

In this particular case, anyway.

 

[Gaborn]

restricting mentally unstable people from buying guns legally would seriously reduce mass shootings

psychos should be permitted to buy guns

But in this case the guy was undiagnosed. Should we also require that every single person that wants to own a gun see a psychiatrist? Of course even THEN it ignores illegally getting a gun

 

[gutter_trash]

But in this case the guy was undiagnosed. Should we also require that every single person that wants to own a gun see a psychiatrist? Of course even THEN it ignores illegally getting a gun

yes

anyway, must illegal guns are leaked by gun manufactures in the US via blackmarket but derp dep NRA is too powerful so the blackmarket will persist

legally anyhow, psych evalution must be mandatory before getting a license

 

[saelz8]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

HP is going to cause a lot of nightmares.

 

[kamspy]

yes

anyway, must illegal guns are leaked by gun manufactures in the US via blackmarket but derp dep NRA is too powerful so the blackmarket will persist

legally anyhow, psych evalution must be mandatory before getting a license

So who will protect you? Who will evaluate the evaluators?

 

[RustyNails]

I found this on reddit:

1. Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for."
2. Senator Phil Gramm: "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."
3. Rep. James Hansen on Bill Clinton: Get rid of the guy. Impreach him, censure him, assassinate him."
4. John Derbyshire intimated in the National Review that because Chelsea Clinton had "the taint," she should "be killed."
5. Ann Coulter: "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too."
6. Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."
7. Bill O'Reilly: "ll those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains."
8. Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"

 

[besada]

What he meant is that it wasn't a "legitimate" way to use his gun. Criminals wouldn't stop using guns because of a law. Gun laws do not stop shooting like this one. See: Canada.

Your example of how gun laws don't stop gun crimes is a country who's had only one federal official assassinated, and that in 1868? A country that comes in 20th in per capita gun crime, compared to the U.S.'s 8th?

 

[dead souls]

snip

Great post. It really is completely obvious from his youtube channel that he had latched on to far right wing libertarian ideas. Unfortunately the usual group of posters that always try to spin this stuff will never be convinced no matter how obvious it is.

 

[DrForester]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

HP is going to cause a lot of nightmares.

Wow, being defended but the guy who defended Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber)

 

[saelz8]

Wow, being defended but the guy who defended Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber)

It's actually a lady.

 

[besada]

Wow, being defended but the guy who defended Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber)

They're Federal Public Defenders, so they get all the crazy, broke ones.

 

[Dan]

In what sense? That he was legally allowed to buy the gun? That's not quite were I was going with that.

Psychos are going to be able to pull crap like this off at will if CITIZENS cannot properly arm themselves. Police and whatever private security she employed obviously weren't fast enough to react. Maybe a citizen standing closer to the incident could have done something if it wasn't such a pain in the ass to legally carry a loaded weapon.

Yes, that's what we need. An arms race between citizens and psycho killers. That'll surely result in less violent deaths.

 

[RustyNails]

Wow, being defended but the guy who defended Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber)

Who cares, as long as the guy has his day in court? Someone has to do the dirty work. It doesn't mean he shares the killer's sentiment. It will be a sad day for democracy when criminal suspects are locked up without any fair hearing.

 

[leroidys]

More armed citizens in that crowd would have been a good thing. Lives would probably have been saved.

Gun laws only effect the legitimate owners. I'm sure someones tried to bang this into the GAF hive mind by now.

What are you even talking about? There are almost no barriers to gun ownership in Arizona. Did this make the people in the crowd safer? Are you saying that all citizens should be required to carry guns or something? That sounds like evil big brother to me, dictating what I must purchase. How would doing a mental health check on a person purchasing a firearm make us less safe?

 

[ivysaur12]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

HP is going to cause a lot of nightmares.

Heroic Giffords Intern Could Be Asked For Papers Under AZ Immigration Law

Sweet, HuffPo.

In the Vaccine-Autism Debate, What Can Parents Believe?
Jenny McCarthy, 01.10.2011
Author, model and autism activist

Bail-out to TPM.

 

[Wallach]

More armed citizens in that crowd would have been a good thing. Lives would probably have been saved.

In the interview that I heard (I believe on CNN) with one of the two men that tackled this guy, he said he himself was carrying a handgun at the time the shooting took place. It was a situation where it would have been incredibly dangerous to return fire at this man. There was a small crowd of people and they were in front of a populated shopping area. If you fire a weapon and this guy and miss you are risking someone else's life.

 

[DrForester]

Who cares, as long as the guy has his day in court? Someone has to do the dirty work. It doesn't mean he shares the killer's sentiment. It will be a sad day for democracy when criminal suspects are locked up without any fair hearing.

I was thinking of the notoriety of such a position, not that he isn't entitled to it. Honestly based on what we've heard I was totally expecting this guy to say he was going to defend himself.

 

[D4Danger]

Watching the news over the last few days I can't help but be reminded of this video from Newswipe about how the media reports on these situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

 

[nyong]

The Western European countries with the highest rates of gun ownership also have the lowest murder rates. Please stop with the guns=murder nonsense, because it has absolutely no basis in reality. There's something about our culture (pressure?) that may help breed this sort of insanity. In fact, our non-gun murder rate exceeds all of Europe's entire murder rate.

Between Palin, Beck, and gun laws some people sure seem determined to add an anti-right slant to this atrocity.

 

[WinFonda]

Mug shot.

Crazy motherfucker indeed.

I'm starting to wonder if this asshole planned out his insanity defense. All that youtube shit was uploaded within the past month. And he tied his name to his youtube account so it would be easily found. Of course, true crazy is hard to fake. And he's pretty convincing.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Sarah Palin reached out to Glenn Beck over the weekend, and Beck read some of their email exchange on his radio show this morning. “Sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer. I know you are felling the same heat, if not much more on this,” Beck wrote. Beck expressed concern about Palin’s safety, and urged her to hire the same Los Angeles-based security firm that he uses.

The rhetoric of both Beck and Palin has been cited by both liberals and some of the mainstream media as examples of the kind of overheated political discourse that, if not directly connected to the Tucson shooting, has created an environment in which a similar thing might happen again. “I hate violence,” Palin wrote back. “I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence.”
​

Dramatic reading of emails by Beck

 

[kamspy]

The way self defense laws are right now (much less public, good samaritan defense), any able minded person carrying a gun has to think twice before stepping in. Even without firing his weapon, a gun carrying citizen stopped the massacre. Odds are if he's got a handgun in his waist he's got assault weapons at home. We should probably take them right?


I'm not suggesting anything other then that more restrictions are not going to make us safer, only the contrary. We need police reform from the ground up. Most importantly how we interpret the word 'police' (fat dudes in tux pants).

 

[DrForester]

In the interview that I heard (I believe on CNN) with one of the two men that tackled this guy, he said he himself was carrying a handgun at the time the shooting took place. It was a situation where it would have been incredibly dangerous to return fire at this man. There was a small crowd of people and they were in front of a populated shopping area. If you fire a weapon and this guy and miss you are risking someone else's life.

Common Sense? From a gun owner? Surely you jest, Sir.


Regardless, the guys who held him down and the woman who was able to take one of his clips are heroes. There was an interview with two who held him down, were apparently more helping.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41003128#40998373

Get a bit of satisfaction from this part:

Meredith: Did he say anything?

Guy: "My arm, ow, ow you're hurting me...." "Sure it wasn't comfortable but it's not my problem"

 

[Snaku]

“I hate violence,” Palin wrote back. “I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence.”
​

Dramatic reading of emails by Beck

I wrote a piece on Desert Storm that was every bit as articulate as her statement, back in first grade.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

OK, saying Rommel was a hero compared to Patton is a little more than I can bear. I'm fully aware of both their histories and the revisionism. Bottom line, he wore a hat with the swastika on it, and before that he was the Kaiser's boy. You should sell your Nazi apologist shit somewhere else, because I'm not buying.

He didn't say "more of a hero" at all and your black and white world of "nazi apologism" is a silly place to live.

 

[empty vessel]

More armed citizens in that crowd would have been a good thing. Lives would probably have been saved.

Jesus Christ, you gun extremists even put gun violence in your pro column. I am not anti-gun, but I am anti-delusion. Guns do not prevent gun violence. Never have and never will. Guns do cause gun violence. Always have and always will. The very purpose of a gun is to cause gun violence. Practices in other nations with respect to firearm access have empirically proved--i.e., this is not up for rational debate among people who draw conclusions from empirical observation--that restricting access to guns lowers gun violence. (I think they have also shown that more robust social welfare programs and reduced inequality lower crime generally.)

However you want to defend your ability to acquire and possess firearms (and by all means do), do not resort to this faith-based ridiculousness that firearms protect life. It isn't remotely rational.

Gun laws only effect the legitimate owners. I'm sure someones tried to bang this into the GAF hive mind by now.

As has already been pointed out, Loughner was a legitimate owner. The division you seek to draw between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" firearm owners is purely metaphysical rubbish. You don't get to retroactively declare the legitimate owners from the illegitimate ones after the fact. If this were January 7, 2011 instead of January 10, 2011, you would have insisted that Loughner was a legitimate gun owner and cried foul at any attempt to limit his gun possession. You don't find that even a little bit intellectually disingenuous?

 

[BakedPigeon]

After reading every single page in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I never want to be involved with poligaf, you guys are fucking heartless.

 

[JayDubya]

And that mugshot is honestly one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen. He's no longer a human being in my book.

It's... satisfaction.

Those guys that want to watch the world burn? We just found one. We can argue politics until we're blue in the face and throw stupid unrelated speculation to try and make sense of the senseless and have something to blame, but if you're looking for an explanation, there's always crazy, evil, or both available.

It's rare to see a monster looking so chillingly monstrous, but there you have it.

 

[adversesolutions]

Another thing the right can't hide behind:

if Loughner is not particularly influenced by the high tide of the extreme right buoyed by the Tea Party, and is just a "lone nut" and there's "always going to be guys like this", that means that the existing gun laws fully enable "lone nuts" to get their hands on 33-bullet handguns. If the right doubles down on gun rights, that means they are willing to accept that every once in awhile "one's going to slip through the cracks", and people in government are going to be shot now and again.

There was no preventive solution here.

- Jared Loughner's community college expelled him after erratic behavior.
- The army would not accept due to failing a drug test.
- He was a legal adult, and not subject to any institution in particular. If anything his immediate community was his family, but the most they could have done is kick him out of the house.
- He was not involved in any physical organization, although he probably had correspondence online with similar conspiracy-oriented individuals. There is no organization to crack down on.

That leaves you with one last defense: PREVENTING him from getting a gun.

I can't see how gun laws are going to come out unmodified once this case has really been raked over.

 

[Ember128]

What he meant is that it wasn't a "legitimate" way to use his gun. Criminals wouldn't stop using guns because of a law. Gun laws do not stop shooting like this one. See: Canada.

We have stricter gun ownership laws in Canada. You can still buy a Desert Eagle in Canada with the proper license.

The other difference being that there is not the same media industry of outrageous bullshit where people are paid exorbitant amounts of money to rail against fictitious government conspiracies with language bordering on inciting violence.

Since that industry does not exist and is not fed across the airwaves 24/7, we have a largely more peaceful culture.

Does it stop all shootings from happening? No. But we have far less political violence and our homicide rate is about 1/3rd of that in the US. I fucking wonder why.

 

[Clevinger]

“I hate violence,” Palin wrote back.

 

[kamspy]

Gun laws do not stop at possession of the firearm. Use is a big factor too. Do you know how the monetary cost of shooting someone in self defense? Let's say someone enters your house while you and your family sleep. You wake up, find them rifling through your possessions and shoot them three times below the waist. Having a wife and children upstairs, it's not the best time to wonder if the thief is armed.

I can tell you exactly how much it cost. $10,063.47, weeks of lost work and stress I'll never get back.

Now how is someone in a crowd supposed to react with any urgency with that in the back of their head? It's been said that the person who brought the psycho to the ground was armed. I bet if gun use laws were more relaxed (sane) he could have brought the guy down even faster.

 

[Gaborn]

It's... satisfaction.

Those guys that want to watch the world burn? We just found one. We can argue politics until we're blue in the face and throw stupid unrelated speculation to try and make sense of the senseless and have something to blame, but if you're looking for an explanation, there's always crazy, evil, or both available.

It's rare to see a monster looking so chillingly monstrous, but there you have it.

The Mother Jones interview where at the end the guy compares Loughner to the Heath Ledger's Joker seems very appropriate based on the mugshot.

Since hearing of the rampage, Tierney has been trying to figure out why Loughner did what he allegedly did. "More chaos, maybe," he says. "I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that." Tierney thinks that Loughner's mindset was like the Joker in the most recent Batman movie: "He fucks things up to fuck shit up, there's no rhyme or reason, he wants to watch the world burn. He probably wanted to take everyone out of their monotonous lives: 'Another Saturday, going to go get groceries'—to take people out of these norms that he thought society had trapped us in."

 

[DrForester]

Irrelevant pictures

Yeah this thread is stuck in a causality loop.

Lt. Commander Data recommends decompressing the shuttlebay to get out of it.

 

[The Chosen One]

Well when you have Roger Ailes telling his own people at Fox News to "shut up, tone it down", then you know even he recognizes their rhetoric has gotten out of hand to the point where it gives the impression they're instigating political violence.

It's kind of like if you have a bunch of people protesting outside Walmart with signs like, "Death To Walmart!", "Let's Rollback their Heads!", and etc. Then soon after you have some crazy unaffiliated nut shootup a bunch of Walmart clerks. Even if the crazy nut didn't take direct cues from the protestors, the protestors should feel shame and embarrassment for making violent rhetoric that could associate them with a violent insane nutjob. That's basically the situation we have here.

Also, while it may be tough to ascertain his exact political affiliation. He definitely was politically aware. How many 20 year-olds know who their congressman is or what their congressional district is? He got a grudge against Gifford from when he asked a question at a townhall meeting. The Tea Party anger and the vandalism against Gifford's home and office made national news last year, so I think it would be safe to assume Jared was probably aware of these incidents. If this indeed was the case, it would only further validate his irrational thoughts of violence against her. This is why reasonable people understand why dangerous rhetoric has to be toned down. Even if the facts prove there's no direct or tangential cause, it very well could have been.

 

[thekad]

That leaves you with one last defense: PREVENTING him from getting a gun.

I can't see how gun laws are going to come out unmodified once this case has really been raked over.

The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

According to police and media reports, the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, legally purchased a semiautomatic Glock 19 with a high-capacity magazine in November at a gun store in Tucson. Under the assault weapons ban, it was illegal to manufacture or sell new high-capacity magazines, defined as those that hold more than 10 rounds. The magazines used by Loughner had 31 rounds each, according to police.

If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon.

...

President Bush backed the ban, and an amendment to extend it passed in the Senate in 2004 but was never voted on by the House.

Guns laws that were already in place before the Bush administration might have saved lives.

 

[soundahfekz]

Well when you have Roger Ailes telling his own people at Fox News to "shut up, tone it down", then you know even he recognizes their rhetoric has gotten out of hand to the point where it gives the impression they're instigating political violence.

It's kind of like if you have a bunch of people protesting outside Walmart with signs like, "Death To Walmart!", "Let's Rollback their Heads!", and etc. Then soon after you have some crazy unaffiliated nut shootup a bunch of Walmart clerks. Even if the crazy nut didn't take direct cues from the protestors, the protestors should feel shame and embarrassment for making violent rhetoric that could associate them with a violent insane nutjob. That's basically the situation we have here.

Also, while it may be tough to ascertain his exact political affiliation. He definitely was politically aware. How many 20 year-olds know who their congressman is or what their congressional district is? He got a grudge against Gifford from when he asked a question at a townhall meeting. The Tea Party anger and the vandalism against Gifford's home and office made national news last year, so I think it would be safe to assume Jared was probably aware of these incidents. If this indeed was the case, it would only further validate his irrational thoughts of violence against her. This is why reasonable people understand why dangerous rhetoric has to be toned down. Even if the facts prove there's no direct or tangential cause, it very well could have been.

nailed it.

 

[timmytheman123]

Do you know of a non violent way to kill an animal?

 

[X26]

Sarah Palin reached out to Glenn Beck over the weekend, and Beck read some of their email exchange on his radio show this morning. “Sarah, as you know, peace is always the answer. I know you are felling the same heat, if not much more on this,” Beck wrote. Beck expressed concern about Palin’s safety, and urged her to hire the same Los Angeles-based security firm that he uses.

The rhetoric of both Beck and Palin has been cited by both liberals and some of the mainstream media as examples of the kind of overheated political discourse that, if not directly connected to the Tucson shooting, has created an environment in which a similar thing might happen again. “I hate violence,” Palin wrote back. “I hate war. Our children will not have peace if politicos just capitalize on this to succeed in portraying anyone as inciting terror and violence.”
​

Dramatic reading of emails by Beck

I'm shocked, shocked, that these two are trying to portray themselves as victims and use it to bolster their own views

 

[DarkKyo]

Wow, that mugshot is scary as hell. What a sick looking piece of garbage.

 

[AniHawk]

Do you know of a non violent way to kill an animal?

Wait for winter to roll around so the gorillas simply freeze to death.

 

[Kifimbo]

Also, while it may be tough to ascertain his exact political affiliation. He definitely was politically aware. How many 20 year-olds know who their congressman is or what their congressional district is? He got a grudge against Gifford from when he asked a question at a townhall meeting. The Tea Party anger and the vandalism against Gifford's home and office made national news last year, so I think it would be safe to assume Jared was probably aware of these incidents. If this indeed was the case, it would only further validate his irrational thoughts of violence against her. This is why reasonable people understand why dangerous rhetoric has to be toned down. Even if the facts prove there's no direct or tangential cause, it very well could have been.

I totally disagree. And I agree with Penn Jillette.

Hyperbole, passion, and metaphor are beautiful parts of rhetoric. Marketplace of ideas can not be toned down for the insane.

 

[Snaku]

It's... satisfaction.

Those guys that want to watch the world burn? We just found one. We can argue politics until we're blue in the face and throw stupid unrelated speculation to try and make sense of the senseless and have something to blame, but if you're looking for an explanation, there's always crazy, evil, or both available.

It's rare to see a monster looking so chillingly monstrous, but there you have it.

What disturbs me the most is that is the last thing that little girl saw before she was murdered.

 

[timmytheman123]

Guns laws that were already in place before the Bush administration might have saved lives.

Are there any official reports on how many shots were actually fired?

 

[Mgoblue201]

I think we agree more than we disagree actually. But I would suggest that you're heavy into shaky extrapolation while suggesting it's "context" instead of--in this case--post hoc ergo propter hoc (I also think I've amply demonstrated people use "target" iconography and nomenclature in political mapping, use terms like "battleground" states, etc). Further, the idea that people who speak their mind while others get death threats are deliberately provoking assassination--while you don't explicitly say this, you come close--is an idea that is both abhorrent to me personally, and also not I feel consistent with reality. Where you see manipulation I see carelessness. I agree though, that people should attempt to understand the words they use in conversation, especially if they're a public figure of Palin's stature.

I think that putting the worlds "deliberate" and "provoking assassination" together are an unfair characterization of my position. Stoking anger may be deliberate, and it may provoke violence, but that does not entail that the politicians who harness that anger seek a bloodbath. I also didn't mean to imply that this is an act of mere political calculation. I think that Palin is deeply delusional and actually believes that she is attempting to improve the state of the country. But that doesn't mean that her MO isn't about tapping into a deep sense of tribalism that feeds upon a vast array of self-defeating and destructive thoughts and emotions.

And when someone like Chuck Grassley supports an individual mandate, but then suddenly has a change of heart upon the election of a Democratic president and then viciously attacks the health care bill for political gain, there is a chance that he might actually have convinced himself that he is against the bill on principle. I never doubt the ability of people to say things incoherently, rationalize a position, and let emotions and desires drive their arguments. People can say incredibly harmful things and think that they're actually doing good, even if they're completely abandoning all principles by doing so. I would classify that as careless too, because it's not always a conscious thing.

Lastly, I don't see the relevance of demonstrating the iconography is common. A factual position is not a moral position. And morality is always about context. That is how we fundamentally make moral decisions. Even back then people were horrified that Palin would post that image. It got a lot of press and came at a really bad time. I have never said that Palin is culpable either. I have said that it's irresponsible. That's not a crime. I believe in personal responsibility. If people let themselves be swayed that much by a stupid image from a politician, then they are really dumb. But I think you underestimate the power of an idea, even the mere assertion of it.

 

[El Sloth]

Do you know of a non violent way to kill an animal?

Heart attack. Damn humming bird, I didn't want to scare you to death.

 

[timmytheman123]

Wait for winter to roll around so the gorillas simply freeze to death.

:lol