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[liquidtmd]

Every time I see the concept of a council / high council / senate in science fiction and fantasy, it's mostly detracted from the experience.

I like political intrigue too, but the second they say in a programme 'we need to discuss this with the high council' or something like that, I roll my eyes because they mostly just exist to deliberately make shit decisions that piss off the protagonists and get ignored anyway.

It's no longer good drama for me because for me to care I would have to also see the councils point of view. Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Stargate...Basically all have this and it's always the worst part of the shows for me.

So GAF...Tell me some of you best and worst examples of this. Can anyone point to me where it was done well?

 

[DrForester]

 

[MGrant]

It appeals to the power fantasy that a lot of the (popular) sci-fi audience wants to see reinforced. People are idiots, I can do things better by myself, government is corrupt, bureaucracy is too slow, the REAL people with power are shadowy illuminati figures. I'm struggling to think of an example of a story in which the problems are solved and the world made better by careful and conscientious governance.

 

[old manatee]

Good one. They definitely don't fall victim to the trope op is calling out.

 

[Nollemaster]

 

[BocoDragon]

I have one pointed exception: the Death Star boardroom in A New Hope is badass.

I think it works because it's the viscous and evil beauracry.

Whenever you have these noble old people talking in Rivendell/Zion/Coruscant whatever it charts somewhere between dull and dorky.

Also give points to SEELE in Evangelion. Maybe evil councils work best.

 

[fanboi]

Who are these again

 

[Lightning Count]

Who are these again

I forget the exact name of the council itself but they are from Bill & Ted.

 

[Ominym]

It appeals to the power fantasy that a lot of the (popular) sci-fi audience wants to see reinforced. People are idiots, I can do things better by myself, government is corrupt, bureaucracy is too slow, the REAL people with power are shadowy illuminati figures. I'm struggling to think of an example of a story in which the problems are solved and the world made better by careful and conscientious governance.

Bingo, I'd go even further to say it targets the kid in all of us who was told they couldn't do something by adults. A "council" serves as a great stand in for the adults older than the sometimes adult protagonist(s) and as such they serve a similar role.

Another thing worth noting in that regard is that many councils don't act out of malice. They don't aim to hurt anyone and in some cases are actively trying to help. But oftentimes they don't 'see' what the protagonist sees, either through them being jaded or having lost their way due to complacency.

The only example of a good council that I can currently think of might be The Council of Elrond from the Lord of the Rings, though that might be a stretch. Everyone agrees The Ring sucks and must be destroyed though there is in-fighting about how to destroy it. They also aren't too good at providing support but at least their goals align (mostly) with the protagonists.

 

[Metalmarc]

Who are these again

The Three Most Important people in the World

 

[Angelus Errare]

It appeals to the power fantasy that a lot of the (popular) sci-fi audience wants to see reinforced. People are idiots, I can do things better by myself, government is corrupt, bureaucracy is too slow, the REAL people with power are shadowy illuminati figures. I'm struggling to think of an example of a story in which the problems are solved and the world made better by careful and conscientious governance.

That and most sci-fi (writers in general) aren't the most political savvy. Writing a good believable council/political entity requires knowledge of politics.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

From what I recall the Zion Council in the Matrix sequels isn't corrupt/inefficient and more or less always makes the right decisions (helping Morpheus).

 

[Renekton]

government is corrupt, bureaucracy is too slow, the REAL people with power are shadowy illuminati figures. I'm struggling to think of an example of a story in which the problems are solved and the world made better by careful and conscientious governance.

This sounds like real life from where I live.

Maybe Scandinavians should make more Science Fiction, could be more favorable of government.

 

[JB1981]

From what I recall the Zion Council in the Matrix sequels isn't corrupt/inefficient and more or less always makes the right decisions (helping Morpheus).

Yea but the depiction was god awful

 

[Jaraghan]

This. Ugh they pissed me off in 1 and 2.

 

[Rexatality]

Probably a cynical perspective, but I have trust issues towards government and politics. So maybe I don't mind as much when the protagonist cleans up the mess even when its a complete power fantasy (I'm curious why some people see it as a negative word)

 

[Stinkles]

From what I recall the Zion Council in the Matrix sequels isn't corrupt/inefficient and more or less always makes the right decisions (helping Morpheus).

Is Zion that sexy underground dance club?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Is Zion that sexy underground dance club?

...yes.

Yea but the depiction was god awful

Oh, no doubt. But its the only example of a benign and effective council in Sci-Fi that I can think of at the moment.

 

[DarkKyo]

Council of Ricks from Rick and Morty is awesome.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Does Lucasfilm story group count?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Does Lucasfilm story group count?

Nah they're more like this:

 

[emag]

Council of Elrond?

 

[KingK]

That and most sci-fi (writers in general) aren't the most political savvy. Writing a good believable council/political entity requires knowledge of politics.

Yeah, I think this and the post you quoted explain it all.

I'd love to read a large scale sci-fi story with the same nuance and emphasis applied to politics as the ASOIAF series.

 

[jstripes]

 

[bengraven]

The council rejects your idea for a thread and if you create it you will be all alone without our support.

 

[Jest Chillin]

It appeals to the power fantasy that a lot of the (popular) sci-fi audience wants to see reinforced. People are idiots, I can do things better by myself, government is corrupt, bureaucracy is too slow, the REAL people with power are shadowy illuminati figures. I'm struggling to think of an example of a story in which the problems are solved and the world made better by careful and conscientious governance.

Eh, I would say it's more simple than that.

Political Councils generally exist to solve things with laws, treaties, etc... If they solve the problem, there's no action in the story. If they agree to send the hero(oes), well that doesn't change what was already going to be done by the hero(oes) so they don't serve much overall purpose outside of world building flavor. If there is no council, then the story has to explain why because the idea of any society existing without a power structure to rule or at least govern seems untenable and not beleivable, even in fiction.

 

[V-Faction]

"Reapers"

 

[Killer Queen]

So the shadow Illuminati?