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[Ripclawe]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...cinco-de-mayo/2011/11/12/gIQABiZ0HN_blog.html

A federal court judge ruled that officials at a California high school had a legal right to send home students wearing shirts showing the American flag on Cinco de Mayo because there was a reasonable fear that the images could lead to violence.

Chief U.S. District Judge James Ware of San Francisco ruled last week that it was not a violation of the freedom of speech for students at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill to be ordered to turn their shirts with the American flag inside out or go home on May 5, 2010, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.Two students were sent home.

Ware cited past clashes between Mexican-American and Anglo students over clothing on the holiday, which is a celebration of Mexican heritage and in Mexico commemorates a Mexican army victory over the French in 1862. (It is not Mexican Independence Day.)

Students wearing the shirts had sued the Morgan Hill Unified School District on the grounds that their right to free expression had been violated as well as on discrimination because students wearing Mexican flag colors were not censored. Ware rejected both issues.

The Supreme Court in 1969, ruling that students could legally wear black armbands to class to protest the Vietnam War, said schools can bar student expression when there is a threat that there will be disruptions to actual learning.

But the judge noted that federal court rulings since then have said that some student expression could put those students in jeopardy and that school officials could take action if they feared in advanced that trouble could result. Several courts, for example, have approved bans on Confederate flags in schools with racial tension

Ware also rejected the students’ claim of discrimination. The judge wrote that while the students wearing the shirts with American flags had told a school official that they knew they might be in danger but wanted to keep the shirts on anyway, there was no evidence that youths who wore clothing with Mexican flag colors were in danger.

“All students whose safety was in jeopardy were treated equally,” the judge wrote.

Bill Becker, a lawyer for the students, was quoted by the Chronicle as saying, “The court found that the rights of students promoting their Mexican heritage trumped the rights of students expressing their patriotism.” He said he would appeal.

Live Oak High School has about 1,300 students, 20 percent of them English-language learners and 18 percent of students come from low-income families.

 

[wenis]

DAT QUOTE

“The court found that the rights of students promoting their Mexican heritage trumped the rights of students expressing their patriotism.”

someone is going to have a field day with this...

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...cinco-de-mayo/2011/11/12/gIQABiZ0HN_blog.html

I see nothing wrong with this decision. I'm sure if I went to Mexico and wore a U.S. flag on July 4th, the schools would ban Mexican flags being worn.

 

[Cyan]

Eh, pretty obvious the students just want to wear the shirts to troll the Mexicans... but then, so what? Not like the shirts are even rude or obscene.

I wonder if Ripclawe will actually participate in discussion, this time.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Wearing an American shirt on Cinco de Mayo absolutely should not be banned. Engaging in a slippery slope is never a good idea.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

I've always hated the term Anglo being used to mean generic white. It's insulting really.

 

[Ripclawe]

Eh, pretty obvious the students just want to wear the shirts to troll the Mexicans... but then, so what? Not like the shirts are even rude or obscene.

I wonder if Ripclawe will actually participate in discussion, this time.

whats to say?

You have a Judge implying that students wearing american flag shirts on American soil in an American School are in danger because of Mexican students.

so not only is it a slap in the face its also racist.

 

[apocalidiot]

Bill O'Reilly just got a huge boner

 

[Kusagari]

I've always hated the term Anglo being used to mean generic white. It's insulting really.

African-American used to describe every black person in the country is far more insulting.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I was about to say isn't Anglo just a prefix?

I just wonder if these students still have the right to wear hats sideways and pants down to their ankles.

 

[la flama blanca]

so dumb.

 

[Lenz44]

Yeaaah this is fucked up on a bunch of levels. Only in California I suppose.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

This is just stupid. The 1969 SC ruling can be applied to anyone's reasoning.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

African-American used to describe every black person in the country is far more insulting.

I think not. It would be akin to calling every African-American Somali or every Latino a Spaniard. I don't like it.

I was about to say isn't Anglo just a prefix?

I just wonder if these students still have the right to wear hats sideways and pants down to their ankles.

In the Southwest United States, Anglo, short for Anglo American, is used as a synonym for Non-Hispanic Whites, that is, all European Americans (except Portuguese-, and Spanish-Americans), most of whom speak the English language but are not necessarily of English descent. The term Anglo-American also excludes Franco-Americans such as the Cajuns of Louisiana. The term Anglo has been regularly used by mainstream media such as the Los Angeles Times.

However, it is also possible to find usage of Anglo in contrast with Jewish. In addition, some non-Hispanics whites in the United States who speak English but are not of English ancestry do not identify with the term Anglo and in some cases find the term offensive. For instance, some Cajuns in south Louisiana use the term to refer to area whites who do not have Francophone backgrounds. Irish Americans, the second largest ethnic group in the United States following German-Americans, also sometimes take umbrage at being called Anglo.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Leaves plenty of room for other articles of clothing, pins, bags, book covers, etc.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

I see nothing wrong with this decision. I'm sure if I went to Mexico and wore a U.S. flag on July 4th, the schools would ban Mexican flags being worn.

Firstly, I doubt they would do this. Secondly, this isn't Mexico.

 

[onken]

African-American used to describe every black person in the country is far more insulting.

What the hell, how can exactly the same thing be "far more insulting" for one race over another?

 

[speculawyer]

Meh. This is silly. The school people obviously don't care if kids wear American flag shirts or not. They just doesn't want to deal with kids getting the shit kick out of them in their school on on their watch.

Blowing this up into some 'free speech' thing is kinda silly. The school administrators are probably much happier with some people whining about about some silly faux-free-speech thing than getting sued because a kid got the shit kicked out of them and the school didn't protect them. That is what this about.

 

[tapedeck]

Firstly, I doubt they would do this. Secondly, this isn't Mexico.

Pretty sure he was joking, or at least I hope he was.

And yes this is fucking dumb.

 

[Reneledarker]

Firstly, I doubt they would do this. Secondly, this isn't Mexico.

Third, you can't wear the Mexican flag in any clothes, is in the Mexican law.

 

[Dude Abides]

I wonder how Clarence Thomas would come out on this. His view is that students essentially have no 1st Amendment rights at school.

whats to say?

You have a Judge implying that students wearing american flag shirts on American soil in an American School are in danger because of Mexican students.

so not only is it a slap in the face its also racist.

No, what you have is a judge saying that school can ban an article of clothing if it thinks that the result of students wearing that article will be the disruption of school activities and possibly violence.

If, say, a gang were to adopt the American flag as its colors, would it be ok for the school to ban American flag clothing at school?

 

[Ripclawe]

I wonder how Clarence Thomas would come out on this. His view is that students essentially have no 1st Amendment rights at school.


No, what you have is a judge saying that school can ban an article of clothing if it thinks that the result of students wearing that article will be the disruption of school activities and possibly violence.

If, say, a gang were to adopt the American flag as its colors, would it be ok for the school to ban American flag clothing at school?

Only if they can prove that it is an actual gang and ongoing problem. What this is saying that the American flag is a disruption only on one day of the year because of the heritage feelings of some students.

The whole ruling is screwed up and hoping student defy the ban. It is ridiculous.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

I'm surprised it went to such a high court. There is so much shit banned from being worn in school with the justification that it is a "distraction from learning." Kids don't have freedom of expression in schools. I guess the students were hoping that the US flag design would have some kind of protected status. But a shirt isn't a flag.

And if the thing you wear irritates the administration, it's over. IMPEDIMENT TO LEARNING! YOU CAN'T LEARN WHILE I'M ANNOYED!

 

[Dude Abides]

Only if they can prove that it is an actual gang and ongoing problem. What this is saying that the American flag is a disruption only on one day of the year because of the heritage feelings of some students.

The whole ruling is screwed up and hoping student defy the ban. It is ridiculous.

What if they think it is likely to result in disruption and violence on this particular day and have a reasonable basis for so thinking?

 

[Big-E]

Meh. This is silly. The school people obviously don't care if kids wear American flag shirts or not. They just doesn't want to deal with kids getting the shit kick out of them in their school on on their watch.

Blowing this up into some 'free speech' thing is kinda silly. The school administrators are probably much happier with some people whining about about some silly faux-free-speech thing than getting sued because a kid got the shit kicked out of them and the school didn't protect them. That is what this about.

Yep, well said.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

What if they think it is likely to result in disruption and violence on this particular day and have a reasonable basis for so thinking?

Then they are acknowledging that they are sitting on a powder keg of racial tension and instead of working to diffuse said tension they are banning the flag of the country in which they teach while allowing a different subset of student to wave foreign colors. That's not working to end tension that's actively insulting one group while favoring the other.

If anything, this kind of act will only raise racial tension. The school admin are burying their heads in the sand.

 

[speculawyer]

Then they are acknowledging that they are sitting on a powder keg of racial tension and instead of working to diffuse said tension they are banning the flag of the country in which they teach while allowing a different subset of student to wave foreign colors. That's not working to end tension that's actively insulting one group while favoring the other.

If anything, this kind of act will only raise racial tension. The school admin are burying their heads in the sand.

Of course you are assuming they did absolutely nothing else to address the issue.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

Of course you are assuming they did absolutely nothing else to address the issue.

What I am assuming is that the action they have taken will likely have the reverse effect. Now it'll be some know-nothing nativist threatening to kick the hell out of some poor kid wearing his home country's soccer jersey.

 

[Dude Abides]

Then they are acknowledging that they are sitting on a powder keg of racial tension and instead of working to diffuse said tension they are banning the flag of the country in which they teach while allowing a different subset of student to wave foreign colors. That's not working to end tension that's actively insulting one group while favoring the other.

If anything, this kind of act will only raise racial tension. The school admin are burying their heads in the sand.

Maybe. Knowing nothing about the situation this school beyond what's reported in the article I'm reluctant to substitute my judgment for that of the people who work there every day of their lives.

In any event, this is a classic Heckler's Veto rationale, which the Supreme Court does not generally like, but the Supreme Court is also pretty skeptical of the First Amendment rights of students while they are at school. I hope this goes up as it will be interesting to see how the Court as a whole, and Thomas and Breyer in particular, attempt to resolve the tension.

 

[eastmen]

Wow , I would walk into school with an american flag on everything I own and would tell off the teachers who tried to stop me and any student who wanted to mess with me would get it in turn.

Such a stupid thing , if you want to celebrate a holiday from another country. Go there that day and celebrate

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

What if they think it is likely to result in disruption and violence on this particular day and have a reasonable basis for so thinking?

what's to stop the Mexican students from kicking the crap out of the american flag wearing students any other day?

 

[Agnostic]

If people had any respect for the flag they wouldn't be wearing it as clothing in any form.

 

[remnant]

Maybe. Knowing nothing about the situation this school beyond what's reported in the article I'm reluctant to substitute my judgment for that of the people who work there every day of their lives.

In any event, this is a classic Heckler's Veto rationale, which the Supreme Court does not generally like, but the Supreme Court is also pretty skeptical of the First Amendment rights of students while they are at school. I hope this goes up as it will be interesting to see how the Court as a whole, and Thomas and Breyer in particular, attempt to resolve the tension.

The two are not really colliding here. Thomas believes that parents had authority over a child's speech, not public institutions. What case has the SC ruled on that makes you believe they will judge that public institutions have the right to curtail free speech in order to defend themselves from a lawsuit when they don't do their job?

 

[remnant]

If people had any respect for the flag they wouldn't be wearing it as clothing in any form.

I remember the original thread for this story was one of the firstt GAF reads i had ever seen, and posts like this still make me laugh. Why exactly is the kid wearing the American flag apparel the bad guy in this story, and not the kids who despise this country so much that seeing a American flag on Cinco de mayo drives them to violence?

 

[diehard]

lol this shit is going to backfire so hard.

 

[Agnostic]

I remember the original thread for this story was one of the firstt GAF reads i had ever seen, and posts like this still make me laugh. Why exactly is the kid wearing the American flag apparel the bad guy in this story, and not the kids who despise this country so much that seeing a American flag on Cinco de mayo drives them to violence?

All of those children who have hatred towards the country get to see the flag flying above all everyday they show up at school. A patriotic American should know better than to treat the flag as a clothing accessory.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

If people had any respect for the flag they wouldn't be wearing it as clothing in any form.

While I'm sure you're probably thinking about any number of T-shirts purchased at your local Wal-mart, with which I agree, it is worth noting that there is nothing wrong at all with wearing a patch, say, on a jacket.

If it can be worn on the army uniform, it isn't disrespectful. We're not talking about medals here.

 

[rCIZZLE]

I think banning this will do more much more harm than good. Just gives racist rednecks a reason to be bigger assholes.

 

[AlberichMX]

Third, you can't wear the Mexican flag in any clothes, is in the Mexican law.

Yes, only armed forces and goverment agencies can do that.

And as a mexican, I don't care if a US citizen wants to wear his flag or anything like that in May 5th.

 

[speculawyer]

I think banning this will do more much more harm than good. Just gives racist rednecks a reason to be bigger assholes.

There is no 'banning'. There is just some school official that made a judgment on one day that he/she felt was a good idea to prevent violence.

For those that are arguing this was wrong . . . what remedy do you want? Should the kids get a cash payment? Do you want your tax dollars paying for that? If some kid got beat up, do you want your tax dollars paying out on a lawsuit over that?

 

[Moppet13]

Are French flags on shirts at school on Cinco De Mayo cool?

 

[Sye d'Burns]

There is no 'banning'. There is just some school official that made a judgment on one day that he/she felt was a good idea to prevent violence.

For those that are arguing this was wrong . . . what remedy do you want? Should the kids get a cash payment? Do you want your tax dollars paying for that? If some kid got beat up, do you want your tax dollars paying out on a lawsuit over that?

I'm not saying there should be any kind of payout. I would be satisfied if the school said "oops" and came up with something a little less incendiary before next May 5th.

Kids get beat up every day. It's a sad fact of life. Not every kid gets a payout, nor should they. That said, the door swings both ways. What happens when that know-nothing nativist kicks in the teeth of some poor kid wearing that soccer jersey. Is the school liable for for that?

In my opinion, one could make the argument that the school set the wheels of that beating in motion by giving the nativist a "reason" to resort to violence and therefore making the school more directly responsible for that beating than the one you believe they were trying to prevent initially.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Seems like kind of a dick move to wear an American Flag T-shirt on Cinco de Mayo just to piss people off...but it seems like a bigger dick move to ban people from wearing an American Flag T-shirt on Cinco de Mayo too.

Cinco de Mayo in Texas is one of my favorite holidays, as long as the Reconquista dicks aren't around using it to push their anti-US agenda...which just brings out the rednecks, ect. ect. ect.

 

[speculawyer]

I'm not saying there should be any kind of payout. I would be satisfied if the school said "oops" and came up with something a little less incendiary before next May 5th.

Well this is Federal court, not misunderstanding between friends at a party or Judge Judy. There has to be an actual case/controversy with a requested remedy.

The judge may have felt the same way but didn't have that option. I think the judge may have felt the same was as The Dude when he said:

Knowing nothing about the situation this school beyond what's reported in the article I'm reluctant to substitute my judgment for that of the people who work there every day of their lives.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

Well this is Federal court, not misunderstanding between friends at a party or Judge Judy. There has to be an actual case/controversy with a requested remedy.

The judge may have felt the same way but didn't have that option. I think the judge may have felt the same was as The Dude when he said:

I wasn't aware that "You work there. I'll take your word for it" is as valid a form of evidence in Federal court as it is among friends at a party or on Judge Judy.

Hold on, am I reading you right? You're suggesting the judge may have felt that a better plan could be implemented but doesn't have the option of ordering the school to come up with one?

 

[Drkirby]

Don't sound to outlandish, and I think I can see where the school officals are coming from (The assumption is that the kids were wearing the shirts to intentionally stir up people) but I bet the Media will have a field day.

 

[timetokill]

Considering that Cinco de Mayo is mostly an American holiday only makes this funnier. Mexico doesn't give a shit about it, besides it being a great excuse to sell Mexican beer.

 

[Sye d'Burns]

Don't sound to outlandish, and I think I can see where the school officals are coming from (The assumption is that the kids were wearing the shirts to intentionally stir up people) but I bet the Media will have a field day.

This isn't wearing a swastika on Hitler's birthday here, it's wearing an American flag in an American school in an American state. An American flag is provocative in America. Wow.

 

[alphaNoid]

I am now going to start wearing an American flag on the 5th of may.. every year.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Ware also rejected the students’ claim of discrimination. The judge wrote that while the students wearing the shirts with American flags had told a school official that they knew they might be in danger but wanted to keep the shirts on anyway, there was no evidence that youths who wore clothing with Mexican flag colors were in danger.

sounds like all they have to do is threaten the Mexican students who wear the Mexican Flag colors and the ban can spread!