This is something that we have work together to create.
Making an example out of someone is wrong and should never be something we resort to, nor would it stop it completely.
Until everyone as a whole can do it, working harder is the only option.
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Cross The Line - Sexual Assault... ok, maybe just Sexual Harassment!
- Thread starter The Faceless Master
- Start date
This is something that we have work together to create.
Making an example out of someone is wrong and should never be something we resort to, nor would it stop it completely.
Until everyone as a whole can do it, working harder is the only option.
CountAntonius
Member
By not supporting at the top, By speaking out about it. You can't control everything all you can do is set an example and some already have (Level l Up).
MScoutsDCI
Member
So are you claiming that non-physical intimidation and bullying don't exist either? Grow up. I don't need to hit or even touch someone to bully them.
I fail to see a requirement of physicality in that definition. Thanks for proving my point.
BronsonLee
Member
I'm about to give you the best advice ever: Everything Triforce Says Is Not Worth Listening To.
Takes an hour to make a point, and that point is usually batshit insane. Not worth the effort.
Work together how? You're excluding punitive measures from our toolbox, so what do we have to get a bunch of unruly strangers to behave?
And why is making an example of someone bad? If you're saying making someone a scapegoat, I'll agree with you. Which is why I said: forget Aris. We're moving forward. When some douchebag-nobody at some tournament tells some girl something horrible when they're playing against each other, what do we do? Or do you think this will emerge organically, somehow, and we won't have douchebags at tournaments?
I'm incredibly skeptical. Good posters on GAF don't inspire others not to be shitty posters. The mods cracking down on shitty posters inspire people not to be shitty posters (and it isn't 100%).
I believe he was being sarcastic originally.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
It was sarcasm, please read the post I was responding to in that same post I made, and others I've made here. Someone claimed he was just "being an ass with words", so I replied to the sexual harassment claim in the manner in a world where the ass comment would be true. But it's not.
If you fail at detecting heavy, heavy sarcasm, perhaps I'm not the one who needs to grow up
.I didn't get a lot of sleep before work so I think the sound of me clicking and checking what I wrote 5 times was probably louder than the WHOOSH -_0 haha.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Are there people in here that are trying to say that there should be no consequences for his actions, that we should let sorry be enough and walk away?
If so let me say this.
Everyone agrees that what Aris did was wrong, and most people (I hope) thinks he should change his behavior at least somewhat.
But if there are no concrete consequences for him then what is his motivation to change? I'm sure people want to think the best of him, but even a good person can fall back into bad habits if they are not incentivized to change their ways or been shown that behaving badly has consequences.
Furthermore, if Aris can do the kinds of things he did very publicly and there's no consequences beyond having to say he's sorry, then what's to keep people from thinking they can probably get away with that kind of shit and worse when they're not under close scrutiny by both Capcom and thousands of viewers.
If so let me say this.
Everyone agrees that what Aris did was wrong, and most people (I hope) thinks he should change his behavior at least somewhat.
But if there are no concrete consequences for him then what is his motivation to change? I'm sure people want to think the best of him, but even a good person can fall back into bad habits if they are not incentivized to change their ways or been shown that behaving badly has consequences.
Furthermore, if Aris can do the kinds of things he did very publicly and there's no consequences beyond having to say he's sorry, then what's to keep people from thinking they can probably get away with that kind of shit and worse when they're not under close scrutiny by both Capcom and thousands of viewers.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
(pssst. i think you're on the same side.)
MScoutsDCI
Member
Wow. That WHOOSH sound you heard...Yeah, probably deafening. My bad.
notworksafe
Member
Should everyone be banned from competing if they've said mean things? Should each person be required to give their twitter, Facebook, and SRK account names when registering for a tourney? It's not just "pros" that enter these tourneys. Everyone does.
I can't answer that, it will take a lot of time and effort from many people, no one person will be able to do it.
There is a huge difference between handing out punishment and making an example out of someone. One is reasonable and needed, the other forces that person to be made to answer for everyone's mistakes by shoving the idea that this will happen to others on them.
Let Aris take whatever punishment is needed, but don't use him to further an agenda, it isn't right to use anyone like that nor will it actually stop it from happening.
Ninja Scooter
Member
From what I saw this guy particular (Aris?) comes off as someone who just needs someone to tell him to shut the fuck up. No need to engage him in conversation, just tell him he's a moron and to shut his mouth. For me the onus falls on Capcom and the other sponsors not to let this keep going, kick him off the show and have a strict consequences against this sort of behavior. You want to have the right to act like a vulgar virgin whenever you see a girl at your local pizza parlor or in locally organized tournaments? Fine. But when a big company like Capcom is funding them, they need to nip it in the bud. It's in their best interest that their games appeal to the widest possible audiences, and here you have this moron who is currently acting on their payroll saying he wants to intimidate people out of the scene? Fuck him.
Why do you think the only solution is crucifying him and not simply addressing the bigger problem by better monitoring live events, streams, and getting everyone (Aris included) talking, acting towards moving the scene out of the gutter?
CountAntonius
Member
We don't know what Capcom has said to him behind the scenes We don't know what went on with the apologies between him and Miranda. The guy's face , picture and words have been on pretty much every gaming media site on the internet. I think that is far worse than banning him from a tourney or two(which I don't mind happening). What he did was terrible but I asked this before and nobody could come up with a suitable answer? What else has to happen to this guy for people to be satisfied? Honestly?
If you're a well-known and well-established asshole, yeah, maybe you should be banned. Teach you not to be an asshole. Otherwise, it's the perils of fame. The more famous you get, the more careful you have to be. So no one's going to pore over the social media history of some nobody, but if you become someone in the community -- clean up your act.
Yeah, it's hypocritical, but that's just how society works. Hell, no one's saying that you can't be a total douchebag racist homophobe misogynist. I mean, it'd be nice if you weren't, but there's no such thing as thought police. Just that if you're a douchebag racist homophobe misogynist, keep it to yourself, we don't want a whiff of it.
Neato_Jinkins
Banned
how dense can you be?
do you really not understand the difference between friendly ribbing and sustained, persistent commentary based on who you are as a human being?
notworksafe
Member
Just not sure how this would happen or be enforced. There's no FGC ruling body. Each tourney is run by independent, local TOs that don't have an association with any other TOs.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It would be up to whoever is organizing the tournament. In the case of Capcom, a tourney which essentially is acting as a gigantic commercial for an upcoming game they are trying to sell, it is in their best interest to ban idiots like him from their competition completely, let alone let him have access to a microphone.
I'm sorry, man, but I'm just seeing platitudes. You say we have to work hard, but it's not clear on what. But it seems like you're not completely against actually doling out punishment?
Granted. Like I said, let Aris slide, keep him off the mics. Maybe this is a mistake, but so much of the discourse hinges on him that we're not really getting anywhere regarding the state of the community.
I think its obvious that at some point there's gonna have to be a split between the big-name sponsored esports side of the FGC and the more old-school cliquey side. If companies like Capcom are gonna be involved, they have to stamp that shit out now. Set up stricter rules and whatnot.
It may lose that raw, homegrown feel that a lot of people love, but you can't have it both ways.
It may lose that raw, homegrown feel that a lot of people love, but you can't have it both ways.
Pretty sure that getting lambasted by thousands and the gaming media can be motivation for change. A public shaming of the sort must've gotten to him, I really have difficulty seeing a scenario where he *still* isn't aware of the repercussions of what he's said and would risk that shit again.
I just fear all these recommendations for "the next step" for Aris include some sort of character or personality change beyond just being aware of what he's saying to females. I'm disturbed by people wishing he'd be blackballed forever over this. None of the punishments line up with the crime. And by default, I'd have to say giving him another shot is the best option. Everyone knows the stakes, Aris, the FGC, Capcom, etc. If this shit happens again. If the FGC wants it will distance itself from him should feelings of uncertainty with him persist. I don't think something *NEEDS* to be imposed to restrain him like he's an animal, completely dysfunctional member of society or whatever he's being painted as.
CountAntonius
Member
We are just going around at circles at this point man. It's basically now up to the TO's to handle this how they see fit at their tournaments. Hopefully that means not accepting, endorsing or shrugging off this kind of behavior. These tournaments aren't run by major corporations and will tend to reflect the individual people hosting it. I hope they all learned from this but only time will tell. The back and forth is making my head hurt and I'm ready to move on from this discussion. Great debate fellas.
Kifftopher
Neo Member
I've seen others else use this as a "defense" of his character, yet he still resorted to asking her to marry him and other dumb shit. Sure he treated her as a woman, but he didn't treat her much differently than he's treated other women.
If any punishment was given to Aris it should be because he is a got damn embarrassment to the community.
Being an idiot on your own time within and insulated community is one thing. Being an idiot on at a Capcom sponsored multi-day reality show is another thing.
I prefer not being idiotic at all but if you are going to do it then don't try to present your opinion as a larger agreed upon view within the FGC.
Being an idiot on your own time within and insulated community is one thing. Being an idiot on at a Capcom sponsored multi-day reality show is another thing.
I prefer not being idiotic at all but if you are going to do it then don't try to present your opinion as a larger agreed upon view within the FGC.
notworksafe
Member
If Capcom sponsored a tourney they would probably be well served to uninvited Aris. They don't sponsor any though.
This isn't strictly true. Everyone has contact with everyone else. And here is where the leadership of the FGC should make a stand. This is where they should take this seriously, for real seriously and get together and establish baselines of acceptable behavior. Enforcing it will be a bitch, naturally, but they can probably fake it.
Or, alternatively, and this is a worst-case scenario for the FGC, Capcom can push for stricter controls. You probably don't want it to come to this. And yeah, there's the illusion that the FGC is independent of corporations, but I don't think that's true anymore. Not since sponsorships became a thing. I mean, we have EVO creating main events for games that are out for a few months because it's Capcom's newest and hottest, which is hardly the ideal situation.
Sir Abacus
Member
"Professionals" should be professional in a professional context? Amateurs these rules need not apply?
Hollywood stars do blow and have "unfortunate accidents" with hookers in their free time. Nobody really cares except for the gossip circuit. Sometimes it can make them even more popular (who doesn't like a good comeback story). If they go onto a film set and start trying to guess their co-stars cup size and suggest they want to hang a camera in the ladies they're not going to have a good professional reputation and people won't want to work with them.
Possibly a bad analogy but if a male doctor came in, pointed at your wife's/girlfriend's tits and said "34B AMIRITE?" you'd be hard pressed to knock the fucker out little alone not report him to the AMA and get his license to practise pulled for being an unprofessional twit.
I'm pissed at this not because I don't think people shouldn't be free to call women bitches in their personal time but because gaming is still a fledgling spectator sport looking for widespread appeal. It doesn't help the situation when so called "pro-gamer" schmucks like Aris confirm the stereotype that we're all misogynistic fucktards and then follow up his stupidity with an apology so thin you could turn it clear using the remains of his KFC from last night.
Because the other faces of the community are well respected and loved people. Wong, Chen, David, Valle. People like these and many others like them continue to become better and more well known, along with people like Sherry there is no need to focus on the bad to create change.
When these kind of things happen let punishment be given, and takes steps to clamp down on it at big events like Evo.
As the community continues to evolve sticking forward people who are positive will bring us larger and better audiences then if we shove forward how badly and harshly we punish this who get out of line.
Aren't they putting 500K into tourneys this year?
Capcom mostly sponsors a fuckton of their own events. Even still, you see the Capcom logo on a lot of streams.
BronsonLee
Member
blkdan here - Really Enzo? Taking him off the mic doesn't need to be done? He's proven time and time again that he's completely lacking in social intelligence with regard to this. It has to stop sometime. Enough is enough. (And it's time for a change~! *sharpshooter*
)PsychoSoldier
Banned
Consequences do not always equal crucifying, though that is obviously one extreme that it could take. Personally, I don't know exactly what form that could take, but to simply let it slide seems like it could send a bad message.
Plus, how is one supposed to clean up the scene if people see that the community is unable or unwilling to censure its' own. Dialogue is great, but not everyone has good motives or will listen to reason. More people keeping shady things from happening in an active way would be great but the possibility of consequences aside from having to say you're sorry could help act as a deterrent.
notworksafe
Member
Unless these tourneys are also for Tekken or Soul Calibur, they run little risk of Aris attending.
blkdan here - Really Enzo? Taking him off the mic doesn't need to be done? He's proven time and time again that he's completely lacking in social intelligence with regard to this. It has to stop sometime. Enough is enough. (And it's time for a change~! *sharpshooter*
Okay yeah, that's rational, sorry I was referring to more of the drastic measures people were suggesting though.
Aris is barely on the mic at big events anyways, but I think it's be a bigger loss than a gain to lose a good, knowledgeable commentator with fears that he will say some dumb shit. I don't get the fear he'll say something like this again. Why would he after this incredibly massive reaction and pressure from every direction?
The super cool and cute was the guy who got bodied by Kayo, and then got a hug.
I don't know what to think about Aris/Kayo now- last year I thought Kayo was in on everything and it was an elaborate joke , but I'm not so sure she was now.
freenudemacusers
Member
I recently watched that, and while it was cute and relatively innocent for the most part, when she left he seemed fixated on her smell.
I think he has a thing about girlsmell.
This is crazy though, Kayo has never said she has an issue and there are females who do take to the type of humor. Just look at Sherry she joked with Aris a lot and mentioned about she raped him and tells her friends that to body people is to "rape" them.
Miranda took it bad and it was on Aris to pick up on it and stop, he failed and fucked up.
Doesn't mean every woman suddenly had an issue with him.
I was asked to chime in on this, so here we go.
The fighting game community is not special. There aren't special rules in place allowing everyone to act however they want and say whatever they want "because it's the FGC and that's how it's always been and that's how we want it to stay." That's just not how it works, not just if it is to be taken seriously or awarded any measure of respect, but also if you want to be a decent human being in any context.
When male:female ratios are out of balance, like in the hardcore video game community, people will tend to act crassly; someone's not there, you are less likely to take them into account when you say something, and that behavior gets reinforced when a subculture of insular boys that celebrates trash talking forms. In some of these articles I see the Starcraft II community being mentioned as an example of a far more welcoming and respectful gaming culture than the FGC, but it deals with similar issues thanks to the scarcity of women and the abundance of socially awkward male gamers. When a female gamer joined a Korean pro team, and it was revealed that she only had mid-league ladder status, she was met with a swarm of harassment and derision for receiving special treatment, even though the whole point of her being brought onto the team was to see if she could be developed into a talent and to further the acceptance of women in pro gaming. Different tone, same message: you're not welcome, you're not part of the club, you're inferior, go away.
Sexist, misogynist, harassing behavior is not appropriate; that much should be obvious. But it's also driving women away from all of these scenes, which benefits no one. Who wouldn't be for better male:female ratios in hardcore gaming and esports? It's not going to happen unless we take appropriate measures to address all this crap we see (or participate in) on a daily basis. That means condemning this sort of behavior and ostracizing the worst offenders.
Should this Aris guy be banned? I wouldn't shed any tears, and I think he should be actively prevented from having any sort of legitimate voice in the community in the wake of what he's said here, but it's a band-aid on a more endemic concern. So his statements are imbecilic and damaging, but they also accurately reflect the outlook of the fighting game scene (and the hardcore video game culture at large) to at least some degree. The controversy as a result of the statements can hopefully serve a positive purpose, though: let everyone reflect on how they act and what they say to women in gaming and be more conscious of what they're doing. It's a fight against entropy, ultimately; there's an infinite supply of fresh idiotic socially awkward teenage boys to try to screw with any progress that's made, but it's still necessary.
Edit:
The problem with pointing to specific women in the scene and saying "hey, look! they're totally into the trash talk and they take the sexist jokes and throw them right back at the guys!" is that it's selection bias; the only women you actually have in the scene are the ones that developed a thick skin before they let themselves be driven out by the onslaught of trash.
The fighting game community is not special. There aren't special rules in place allowing everyone to act however they want and say whatever they want "because it's the FGC and that's how it's always been and that's how we want it to stay." That's just not how it works, not just if it is to be taken seriously or awarded any measure of respect, but also if you want to be a decent human being in any context.
When male:female ratios are out of balance, like in the hardcore video game community, people will tend to act crassly; someone's not there, you are less likely to take them into account when you say something, and that behavior gets reinforced when a subculture of insular boys that celebrates trash talking forms. In some of these articles I see the Starcraft II community being mentioned as an example of a far more welcoming and respectful gaming culture than the FGC, but it deals with similar issues thanks to the scarcity of women and the abundance of socially awkward male gamers. When a female gamer joined a Korean pro team, and it was revealed that she only had mid-league ladder status, she was met with a swarm of harassment and derision for receiving special treatment, even though the whole point of her being brought onto the team was to see if she could be developed into a talent and to further the acceptance of women in pro gaming. Different tone, same message: you're not welcome, you're not part of the club, you're inferior, go away.
Sexist, misogynist, harassing behavior is not appropriate; that much should be obvious. But it's also driving women away from all of these scenes, which benefits no one. Who wouldn't be for better male:female ratios in hardcore gaming and esports? It's not going to happen unless we take appropriate measures to address all this crap we see (or participate in) on a daily basis. That means condemning this sort of behavior and ostracizing the worst offenders.
Should this Aris guy be banned? I wouldn't shed any tears, and I think he should be actively prevented from having any sort of legitimate voice in the community in the wake of what he's said here, but it's a band-aid on a more endemic concern. So his statements are imbecilic and damaging, but they also accurately reflect the outlook of the fighting game scene (and the hardcore video game culture at large) to at least some degree. The controversy as a result of the statements can hopefully serve a positive purpose, though: let everyone reflect on how they act and what they say to women in gaming and be more conscious of what they're doing. It's a fight against entropy, ultimately; there's an infinite supply of fresh idiotic socially awkward teenage boys to try to screw with any progress that's made, but it's still necessary.
Edit:
The problem with pointing to specific women in the scene and saying "hey, look! they're totally into the trash talk and they take the sexist jokes and throw them right back at the guys!" is that it's selection bias; the only women you actually have in the scene are the ones that developed a thick skin before they let themselves be driven out by the onslaught of trash.
boredJonathan
Member
I don't think he'd ever do something like this again - IF there are consequences. Not letting him on the mic would be one of those. If he's brought back into commentating again right away, what kind of signal does that send to him?
I'm sure he'll be thinking twice about what he says, but this is more a matter of punishment, and action by the community that they won't stand for this kind of behavior. His likely hood to do the same shit again is really secondary at this point.
If you want others to believe that this incident is one off, and unacceptable, there needs to be consequences for Aris - regardless of how likely he is to do it again.
Sir Abacus
Member
By your logic women shouldn't complain if their significant other beats the shit out of them because some women don't have a problem with it.
This isn't even close to true.
We have a choice, all of us and we are allowed to decide what we find acceptable and what we don't.
If someone doesn't like a type of humor then we need to respect that, however if others find it enjoyable you and I as well as everyone else have no right to tell them they can't enjoy it together.
This is the scene growth equivalent of sour grapes.
Takamura-San
Member
If i go for what another woman may feel, then Rihanna deserved to be punched in the face.
So getting rid of the bad part of the FGC is a battle against entropy?
Would be worth it.
As I said, I don't know what to think about Aris/Kayo from last year now, but I do know I am a lot more inclined to believe that Kayo wasn't ok with it.
Has Kayo ever expressed any issue? If so then there was a problem and we didn't need this to know it.
As it stands Kayo was a hot topic for a while and many commentators said very nasty things about her live and on the mic in front of everyone. Aris was one of the few that really didn't.
Sir Abacus
Member
Yeah. It is.
I give up. I only hope that the populace at large is smart enough to mentally separate truly professional leagues and e-sports with this amateur grade bullshit. Because it seems like the apologists can't really figure out that remarkably, professional is supposed to mean professional.
I do think plenty of folks have a real dislike of the FGC, and the knives come out on stuff like this. The thing is, why give those folks more ammunition?
You don't Ned to understand someone to be scared or creeped out by them.
All I'm asking has Kayo ever said she disliked or was uncomfortable around the man?
If so then we didn't need cross assault to say it was wrong and if not then we are looking for things to be wrong and actively trying to make things worse instead of handing the current problem.
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