• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Crytek Engineer praising PS5 and Chris "Series X PS5 difference is staggering" Grannell may be both complete utter frauds

Thirty7ven

Sony make cringe trainers.
Apr 13, 2020
3,653
14,691
660
This is great and all yet how does a game match or surpass the best looking Sony exclusives graphically if the development is hamstrung to the Xbox One base console?

It might be, because the narrative that is whack, has no basis in reality and developer talent is more important than any perceived physical limitations.

But that’s just your opinion that it does, when it’s not a fact.

What is a fact is that if the baseline didn’t impose limitations then I would be able to play Gears 5 on a 8800GT. So the baseline does affect how high you can start from.

But I like MS’s strategy, for the Xbox, and I don’t think it will negatively impact the XSX versions.
 
Last edited:

S0ULZB0URNE

Gold Member
Jan 27, 2020
2,412
2,780
575
Didn't he work on Hunt Showdown?
Why was he fired if he didn't break any NDA?
Who is that so called source you are quoting OP?
 

Dontero

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
3,047
3,368
620
The entire discussion of how this system would function is stringent on resolution, you're off on a tangent right now. As noted the only way a 2060 could not replicate something a 2080 Ti is doing at 30 FPS is if that 2080 Ti was at a bottomed out resolution which the 2060 could not scale down to mitigate its performance loss.

A fake scenerio that would never exist, you're lost in the woods.

Again with resolution. Does Battlefield 5 at 1080p require more or less power than minecraft at 4k ? Somehow i don't see answer for that easy question.

For your knowledge even game at 720p can murder 2080ti given enough technology. Good example of that is raytracing. 2080Ti at 720p isn't able to run any modern game with full path tracing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alabtrosMyster

Thirty7ven

Sony make cringe trainers.
Apr 13, 2020
3,653
14,691
660
X1S RT Minecraft demo was running at 1080p and hovering between 30 and 60. How does Lockhart run it?
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,529
11,702
2,110
How is that someone working at a major studio and working on a next gen game has never used or had access to next gen devkits?

The studio may be major and working on next-generation games, Crytek would certainly qualify, but those studios have teams that do not work on console tooling and/or games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CatLady

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,529
11,702
2,110
It's not a good nor bad scenario it's agnostic, whether you deem the possible effects of that as negative is for you to come to terms with, not me.

This seems awfully disingenuous on your part.

Whenever Sony has not said something it is seen as negative (oh no, no RT tech demo in Cerny’s speech, RT must suck on PS5... oh Cerny’s interview did not say RDNA2, it must be RDNA1 based).
Whenever it is not explicitly stated that the RT HW is running at the same frequency than everything else in the CU they are part of it must mean that maybe “hey it may be running even faster”.

Curiously it is not a case where you went with an “it could run at 1/3rd the speed, concern concern concern, it could be actually worse than PS5, MS clarify clarify!!!!”
 
  • Like
Reactions: thismeinteil

OSC

Member
Jun 16, 2018
3,626
3,446
515
Oh I'd love to hear this, fixed time of day, no wildlife, no people, no dynamic environment to speak of or weather system beyond timefall, no vegetation except in very static and isolated locations, barely any physics interaction to speak of and so on and so forth.

The game is a barren and largely dead environment covered in moss and rocks with very little else.

Time stamped to section about environment
the geometry of the environment dynamically changes drastically when you're caught in death stranding, the effect is showcased in digital foundry's video.
 
Dec 22, 2019
1,049
3,813
345
If Ali Salehi should have all his statements retracted because he didn't have a devkit. So should this guy.

Why? He's not in the industry and hasn't been for years. He's most famous for sharing the same podcast as this creep:


Context: Timdog is stalking customers to see how many pick up an Xbox so he can brag about a one month NPD win a few years back.

Yes, I'm not joking.
 
Last edited:

sneas78

Banned
Apr 12, 2016
792
245
360
yup, that's why I don't get why it matters what he actually did there.

HE WORKED there, so he KNOWS a lot of people in the industry. He is able to ask those people, who have access to devkits. That's the only thing that is important.

Anyway, doesn't really matter what all those people we, we need to see the GAMES and then DF will tell us whats better and what not.
This is scary. Do people not know what they are seeing anymore? They don’t have their own opinions? What is it with, “DF will tell us” Wth what’s better?
 

TBiddy

Member
Mar 16, 2015
4,712
6,599
830
Denmark
Why i can't ? What is the difference ?
Do you think devs who make graphics said: "Look we don't want to use that power. Let us wait with it !"

No, they simply couldn't because any game designed around XboxOneX would mean that this game wouldn't work on XboxOne.
Similar story here. Any game that is designed around SEX only will not work on Lockheart

The XB1 and the X1X are two very different consoles, when it comes to the internals. One of them has 32 MB ESRAM and 8 GB DDR3, and the other has 12 GB GDDR5. That alone should tell you, that you can't really compare this gen with next gen.

Lockhart is rumoured to be the exact same console as the XSX, just with a bit less memory and a smaller GPU. Both of which developers can easily adjust their games to by reducing resolution, or maybe the development tools can do it for them, who knows.

Point being - to use the XB1 / X1X situation and conclude anything from that with regards to Lockhart/XSX is silly, at best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pawel86ck

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
Apr 16, 2007
2,267
1,499
1,505
UK
This is scary. Do people not know what they are seeing anymore? They don’t have their own opinions? What is it with, “DF will tell us” Wth what’s better?
Imagine having to watch a video from someone that zooms in 1000x to watch a blade of grass in order to establish if a console or game is worthy 🤦‍♂️

I'm lucky enough that I'll have all of the next gen consoles, but there are a lot of reasons I generally choose PS over XB for most of my gaming, I imagine that is the case for 99% of consumers out there. Next gen I think Sony will double down on those factors, and both will deliver excellent products.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zones and sneas78
Mar 27, 2020
11,461
31,835
720
Uncharted bunghole
Imagine having to watch a video from someone that zooms in 1000x to watch a blade of grass in order to establish if a console or game is worthy 🤦‍♂️

I'm lucky enough that I'll have all of the next gen consoles, but there are a lot of reasons I generally choose PS over XB for most of my gaming, I imagine that is the case for 99% of consumers out there. Next gen I think Sony will double down on those factors, and both will deliver excellent products.

Well my ants are better than your ants.

 

RaySoft

Member
May 31, 2013
955
1,465
670
Oslo, Norway
I think what trips people up sometimes is they are conflating "easier" with "more powerful"; when I first read the Ali guy's stuff that's what I thought they were trying to say or at least, that's how I interpreted it, but given what we know about both systems and can extrapolate will be further features and capabilities in both of them, I honestly see them as two different things.

I.e a system doesn't need to be "more powerful" in order to be easier to develop for. The Dreamcast was relatively easier to develop on than the PS2, but outside of some select abilities (lack of deferred rendering, VRAM amount, native output resolution support etc.), it was certainly more powerful than Dreamcast. It's kind of similar with PS5 and XSX; there are some areas PS5 may have some advantages in, but for the main grunt of things and overall the XSX is the more powerful system.

However, some of PS5's advantages, namely "unified" memory pool (actually both systems have unified pools, there are no "split" pools going on in XSX but the bandwidths differ between the 1 GB + upper bound 1 GB partition of 2 GB chips (560 GB/s) and the lower-bound 1 GB partition of 2 GB chips (336 GB/s)), faster GPU clock and more powerful flash memory controller at the hardware level, are a good bit more "automated" for developers, generally to the point where they don't need to think about them too much. Not to say they don't have to think about them at all; if a game's particularly taxing on the GPU power budget due in part to the fillrate (which is influenced by the clock speed of the GPU, i.e it's not something a dev needs to explicitly tell the GPU to do through code), they may have to cut back some of the visual complexity of the scene (as one example). But compared to leveraging some of XSX's hardware headroom and hardware/software advantage potential, it could be easier to do that type of stuff on PS5 (requiring less dev "thinking").

Personally I think the XSX has more potential for "programming creativity" over PS5, particularly after the first couple of years of the systems being out. I don't mean that in terms of game design or such because both systems are capable enough to realize practically the same conceptual ideas in practice as the gen gets underway and as it progresses. However, I think there'll be more "room" regarding XSX for a bigger base of optional approaches to reach similar results, some of which can possibly prove more efficient on resources (both hardware and software) than would've been initially assumed, versus PS5 where going with certain fixed hardware functions somewhat limits what type of options can be explored in this reaard.

This is a really rough example, but think of the SEGA 32X and SEGA Saturn. Both systems could do 3D and Saturn was a lot more powerful at it comparatively, but since the Saturn used fixed polygonal hardware it could only draw polygons as quads. Conversely, the 32X could do both quads and triangles mainly due to that lack of fixed polygonal hardware, though it needed to use the CPUs to do such through software instead. Given how devs came to prefer triangles over quads, that ironically gave the 32X an advantage over the Saturn even if it came at a hardware cost.

I'm not suggesting the "programming creativity" between PS5 and XSX will be at that scale (you couldn't do a straight comparison anyway which is why I said it's a rough analogy); just suggesting sometimes easing up on dedicated fixed-function hardware and having flexible hardware headroom in one or several areas can invite certain approaches to programming and design challenges that can meet results comparable (and maybe at times even superior) to what the fixed-function hardware can provide.

Anyways, we've got a whole upcoming gen to see how all of this shakes out and that's got me kind of excited.

A scale-me-down. Something I'm not personally interested in, either, but it won't be holding back XSX from a technological or game design POV.

From a manufacturing, pricing and marketing POV, though,...well that's honestly still up in the air and the main reason I'd rather it wasn't a thing, at least not for a couple of years. We'll find out soon, though.
Actually "easier" to develop for a set hardware is ofc a good thing at the start, but the easier it is, the less theoretical power there is for the devs to take advantage of at a later stage. On the PS4 Cerny introduced more ALU's 'cause he, rightfully so, expected that some caluculations would shift from CPU to GPU compute. This stuff is what people cite as "secret sauce" I'm certain that both XSX and PS5 have their own "sauces" based on what each company deems critical this gen.

The "issue" with XSX dual bandwith RAM.. Devs will probably make some higher functions for it, so they don't have to "think" about it all the time, but that function will also draw cycles. You could do it without ofc, but then you need more micromanagement and more specialized code. Probably more in the realms of 1st party games.

XSX certainly has more GPU shaders than the PS5, but we don't know how many more ALU's for instance.
Also we don't know if XSX needs ALU's to do calculations elsewere (to support new hw features) in the system. Same with PS5.
But I have a hunch that MS has gone for more traditionally transistors, and Sony went for more specific.
MS can then maybe catch up in some regards utilizing their (probably) increased ALU count to do their calculations to archeive something simular that the PS5 have a specific hw block for.
This is probably the reason that devs think the two platforms more or less performs about equal as well, since XSX may have to use some of it's cumpute advantage over PS5 to leverage where PS5 may have some custom implementations. This is all up to devs ofc, and how they distribute their budget. I for one, love this approach, It's more dynamic and instead of a hw block that is designed to do one thing, you're more "free" to do what you want when you can use compute. That said, it requires more work.
The more you put in, the more you get out of it.
 
Last edited:

DaMonsta

Member
Jan 10, 2020
532
637
305
The Crytek guy said within the interview that he had not worked on either console and was only speculating based off public comments and rumors.

But that part of what he said was ignored for whatever reason.

So I wouldn’t call him a fraud. He was pretty honest.

It was the people that tried to twist his words into actual dev comments on the consoles who where frauds.
 
Last edited:

DrScissorsMD

Banned
Apr 3, 2020
484
952
405
The Crytek guy said within the interview that he had not worked on either console and was only speculating based off public comments and rumors.

But that part of what he said was ignored for whatever reason.

So I wouldn’t call him a fraud. He was pretty honest.

It was the people that tried to twist his words into actual dev comments on the consoles who where frauds.
But who would do that. Definitely not anyone who’s name was sort of like “Primary of Shovels”.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: CatLady

sneas78

Banned
Apr 12, 2016
792
245
360
Imagine having to watch a video from someone that zooms in 1000x to watch a blade of grass in order to establish if a console or game is worthy 🤦‍♂️

I'm lucky enough that I'll have all of the next gen consoles, but there are a lot of reasons I generally choose PS over XB for most of my gaming, I imagine that is the case for 99% of consumers out there. Next gen I think Sony will double down on those factors, and both will deliver excellent products.
Thank you, I was afraid I’m the minority. It drives me nuts.
 
Aug 28, 2019
3,946
8,205
630
www.instagram.com
IF Lockhart exists - and that's a big IF - it's going to be a console that has the same CPU, the same type of SSD and a GPU with adequate horsepower to run next-gen games at 1080p. If we assume that XSX will run games at 4k with it's 12 TF, 4 TF is more than enough to run the same games at 1080p.

I trust Microsoft will provide developers with the adequate tools to target the XSX and let the games scale (more or less) automatically to Lockhart. It should be 'easy' if all else is equal, besides the GPU.

I hope that's the case if Lockhart turns out to not be a streaming-only device (which 4 TF would be overkill for IMHO). But that is going to require virtually all the work to be done on MS's end so that the process of scaling down is virtually automated and something devs don't need to consider, otherwise while Lockhart could be technically able to run next-gen games at 1080p it could create some pipeline issues for teams that don't have the financial or time resources to tailor a downport to it the way, say, an EA or Rockstar can.

Again though, my main issues with Lockhart are logistical, not technical. I think MS needs to focus solely on XSX and worry about a Lockhart a year or two after XSX's release. If they want to be price-competitive, do it with the XSX. From what they've mentioned so far XSX might be their baseline but you know people are going to turn the Lockhart into XSX's anchor if it comes out simultaneously. We're already seeing a bit of that right now.

So I honestly hope MS's plans have changed with regards Lockhart, because I also don't want Lockhart production to be in competition with XSX manufacturing, if say I'm shopping for an XSX but can't find one because they're sold out, but there's a Lockhart there instead. That could've been another XSX, know what I'm saying?

Yeah just mid game refresh. I mean if scaling is so easy like you said why games didn't target Xbox one X ?

The answer: Scaling is not easy. Scaling UP is easy. because you add framerate few effects and resolution. By scaling down you cut features.

Never said scaling down was easier than scaling up. However, scaling UP still means they had to target the weaker base systems as the baseline, which meant that things like AI, physics, logic etc. had to fit in the constraints of those systems. So the easiest thing to scale UP was the resolution and some graphical effects.

You can pose your exact same question to PS4 Pro and it would be just as wrong, whatever was the baseline limited the range of scaling up. However, there's no logistical reason why MS would not make XSX the baseline for next-gen and scale down because while scaling up could be relatively easier, scaling down is not some Herculean feat, either. Especially with smart game design and good programming practices.

We already see this with PC game settings to an extent, so there isn't a reason that can't be done with consoles. But like I've said before, it's logistical reasons why I'm not sold on Lockhart, primarily.
 

Allandor

Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,166
892
405
Germany
That (topic) was what I expected.
All developers who really have the dev-kits are under strict NDAs. They won't say anything that wasn't approved by Sony or Microsoft. Everything we will here until the NDAs are lifted are more or less PR stunts.
And after that, you really won't here negative statements from devs because else they might get problems with ether of those companies.
We might get some info from some leakers, but that information is really hard to verify, so we don't know what is right or wrong until we have the actual hardware & games.
 
Last edited:

captainraincoat

Gold Member
Nov 15, 2010
5,093
7,638
1,240
Guys, the difference IS staggering.

Look, the PS5 can do about 10TF while the XSX is 12TF, locked.

12 - 10 = 2.

That's two whole extra TF to work with..! Look at what Sony could do with 1TF: Horizon: Zero Dawn. That means that XSX games will have two H:ZDs extra on every PS5 game..! That's loads! Who can say that's not a staggering difference.

Can you imagine what that would look like? Doing an XSX game on the PS5 would likely be like ports of arcade game to home systems, back in the early 90s.

To illustrate, here's the Amiga version of Street Fighter 2:



And the arcade version:



Now, these two look quite similar, but if you look closely you can see the arcade version has the edge. And that's not even in motion!

So, yes, the XSX is going to be way more powerful than the PS5.

As a bonus, here's what the C64 version of SF2 looked like. This is sort of what one could expect from a XSX game after being ported to a Lockhart (a 4TF machine):

If you had the one joystick with 2 buttons that most people had with their Amiga and thats a big IF.....(they were considered a luxury) the game was a piece of crap to play
and most ended up using the keyboard

The cd32 versions at least had a gamepad
 

Shmunter

Member
Aug 25, 2018
8,812
20,380
775
Lots of arguing about TF differences. Perhaps time for some baseline agreements?

XSX = 18% more rendering power
PS5 = 2x asset delivery

Conclusion : XsX can deliver a sharper image. PS5 can deliver an image with higher quality asset, or more variety of assets. Both logical conclusions from spec info deliverer directly by platform holders.

Thank you for your time have a good time!
 
Last edited:

thelastword

Banned
Apr 7, 2006
11,734
11,937
2,000
Man up to your fucking lie and say "I made mistake". Typical fanboy behaviour😂😂😂😬😬

His job is not to correct other people . He gave his "personal" opinion and left it at that . Next time dont lie for ur favorite plastic box
Good luck with that......
This thread is basically mental gymnastics to say Ali Salehi was right but Chris Grannel was wrong.
I see no mental gymnastics....I just see proof that Grannell was proven to be FOS....


What's interesting is most likely, this developer is working on the Crysis Remaster, whilst Grannel does not even work in the industry anymore....For over 10 years...
 

sneas78

Banned
Apr 12, 2016
792
245
360
Imagine having to watch a video from someone that zooms in 1000x to watch a blade of grass in order to establish if a console or game is worthy 🤦‍♂️

I'm lucky enough that I'll have all of the next gen consoles, but there are a lot of reasons I generally choose PS over XB for most of my gaming, I imagine that is the case for 99% of consumers out there. Next gen I think Sony will double down on those factors, and both will deliver excellent products.
Me too.. I’m sold on Hellblade 2.. I know Ninjatheory will deliver. Ps5 tho will be main console for sure. But glad Xbox Fans are getting some love from many more game studios. Can’t wait to see what they have cooking. With Sony I’m sure next god of war is coming.. Guerrilla game and Naughty Dog.. etc. and I might be the minority but I want the order 1886 2! Love that game.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bojanglez

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
Apr 16, 2007
2,267
1,499
1,505
UK
Me too.. I’m sold on Hellblade 2.. I know Ninjatheory will deliver. Ps5 tho will be main console for sure. But glad Xbox Fans are getting some love from many more game studios. Can’t wait to see what they have cooking. With Sony I’m sure next god of war is coming.. Guerrilla game and Naughty Dog.. etc. and I might be the minority but I want the order 1886 2! Love that game.
Yeah Hellblade 2 should be great, Ninja Theory were a great acquisition for MS. I'm probably also in a minority that really really liked Heavenly Sword, it's main problem was that it struggled with frame rate on PS3, if Sony ever get their act together with PS3 BC and can leverage the modern hardware it would probably be the first game I'd play. Failing that they should commission a remaster, add trophy support and take advantage of the new haptics in the Dualsense. Anyway I'm going off on a tangent 😆
 

bhunachicken

Member
Apr 11, 2018
883
1,431
405
If you had the one joystick with 2 buttons that most people had with their Amiga and thats a big IF.....(they were considered a luxury)

Wandering offtopic here, but - the Amiga actually supported two button inputs from day one, so it's baffling that Commodore stuck with the one button setup. But I suppose there were already tons of joysticks on the market that were compatible with the input port. Would've been nice, though. Pressing a button to jump in a game is preferable to pushing up.
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
2,122
3,223
430
Lots of arguing about TF differences. Perhaps time for some baseline agreements?

XSX = 18% more rendering power
PS5 = 2x asset delivery

Conclusion : XsX can deliver a sharper image. PS5 can deliver an image with higher quality asset, or more variety of assets. Both logical conclusions from spec info deliverer directly by platform holders.
I think only PS5 developer can say for a fact if sony console will indeed be able to deliver 2x more assets. I can see obvious limitations. I know playstation fans always expect the best, but how's 13-14 TF expectations turned out the last time?
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
2,122
3,223
430
Me too.. I’m sold on Hellblade 2.. I know Ninjatheory will deliver. Ps5 tho will be main console for sure. But glad Xbox Fans are getting some love from many more game studios. Can’t wait to see what they have cooking. With Sony I’m sure next god of war is coming.. Guerrilla game and Naughty Dog.. etc. and I might be the minority but I want the order 1886 2! Love that game.
IMO the order wasnt just a technical showcase like Ryse for example and I have really enjoyed it. Like you I hope we will see the order sequel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SleepDoctor

Shmunter

Member
Aug 25, 2018
8,812
20,380
775
I think only PS5 developer can say for a fact if sony console will indeed be able to deliver 2x more assets. I can see obvious limitations. I know playstation fans always expect the best, but how's 13-14 TF expectations turned out the last time?
??? 13-14 TF never came from Sony. 2x SSD speed is official.
 

Vroadstar

Good chance I'm crying about MS or misquoting people.
Nov 19, 2013
1,567
3,023
690
Me too.. I’m sold on Hellblade 2.. I know Ninjatheory will deliver. Ps5 tho will be main console for sure. But glad Xbox Fans are getting some love from many more game studios. Can’t wait to see what they have cooking. With Sony I’m sure next god of war is coming.. Guerrilla game and Naughty Dog.. etc. and I might be the minority but I want the order 1886 2! Love that game.

You're not alone, love the Order too even bought the special edition with the statue. So yes hopefully part 2 comes as well to continue the story
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
2,122
3,223
430
Good luck with that......
I see no mental gymnastics....I just see proof that Grannell was proven to be FOS....


What's interesting is most likely, this developer is working on the Crysis Remaster, whilst Grannel does not even work in the industry anymore....For over 10 years...
You guys attack the messenger but what Grannel has said is just a common sense considering what we already know about PS5 and XSX specs. I'm 100% sure if Grannel would prise playstation then you guys would overlook he hasnt made any new games lately and prise him. But because he says a good thing about XSX you guys are desperately trying to find anything just to discredit him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CatLady

Dontero

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
3,047
3,368
620
You really need to educate your self on the difference between the XB1 and the X1X.

Why would i need to educate myself when you said it yourself what is the difference which resebles exactly Lockhart and SEX.
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
2,122
3,223
430
??? 13-14 TF never came from Sony. 2x SSD speed is official.
And so is limited 16 GB (13 GB available to developers) memory sony went for. I'm not claiming to know everything, because I'm not a developer and my knowledge is limited in this area. However I'm aware of certain facts that makes me question your 2x more assets claim and I would need to hear some good explanation, before I will believe you.

We know for a fact 8-9 GB/s would bottleneck 10 TF GPU, and that's why AMD build 5700 XT with 448 GB/s memory BW. Such powerful GPU can obviously only use non-streaming textures in realtime because otherwise it would be bottlenecked to the extreme.

I can understand why SDD is so important, because it can quickly fill up streaming memory pool with data for for the next couple of seconds. But why do you think you need SDD 8-9 GB/s transfer speed to fill lets say 1 GB streaming memory pool required for the next second. Can you explain?
 
Last edited:

hyperbertha

Member
Nov 24, 2018
2,001
6,722
625
I hope that's the case if Lockhart turns out to not be a streaming-only device (which 4 TF would be overkill for IMHO). But that is going to require virtually all the work to be done on MS's end so that the process of scaling down is virtually automated and something devs don't need to consider, otherwise while Lockhart could be technically able to run next-gen games at 1080p it could create some pipeline issues for teams that don't have the financial or time resources to tailor a downport to it the way, say, an EA or Rockstar can.

Again though, my main issues with Lockhart are logistical, not technical. I think MS needs to focus solely on XSX and worry about a Lockhart a year or two after XSX's release. If they want to be price-competitive, do it with the XSX. From what they've mentioned so far XSX might be their baseline but you know people are going to turn the Lockhart into XSX's anchor if it comes out simultaneously. We're already seeing a bit of that right now.

So I honestly hope MS's plans have changed with regards Lockhart, because I also don't want Lockhart production to be in competition with XSX manufacturing, if say I'm shopping for an XSX but can't find one because they're sold out, but there's a Lockhart there instead. That could've been another XSX, know what I'm saying?



Never said scaling down was easier than scaling up. However, scaling UP still means they had to target the weaker base systems as the baseline, which meant that things like AI, physics, logic etc. had to fit in the constraints of those systems. So the easiest thing to scale UP was the resolution and some graphical effects.

You can pose your exact same question to PS4 Pro and it would be just as wrong, whatever was the baseline limited the range of scaling up. However, there's no logistical reason why MS would not make XSX the baseline for next-gen and scale down because while scaling up could be relatively easier, scaling down is not some Herculean feat, either. Especially with smart game design and good programming practices.

We already see this with PC game settings to an extent, so there isn't a reason that can't be done with consoles. But like I've said before, it's logistical reasons why I'm not sold on Lockhart, primarily.
You say lockhart won't hold back games but I don't see how that's the case unless lockhart has the exact same CPU and SSD as Series X.

Also , there are certain aspects of graphics that just cannot be scaled back to a lower system. For example, a lighting model designed to take full advantage of Series X cannot work on lockhart, which means the only way is to design the visuals around Lockhart and then bump up the scalable parts for Series X hardware. Which means the Series X and PS5 versions could be compromised just because lockhart exists even if its GPU is the only downgraded component.

Honestly IMO lockhart is such a braindead idea that makes the whole thing way more complicated for both developers and gamers. MS gets to tap into the super casual market, at the expense of gamers that care more about what next gen should truly deliver.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: DoctaThompson

Shmunter

Member
Aug 25, 2018
8,812
20,380
775
And so is limited 16 GB (13 GB available to developers) memory sony went for. I'm not claiming to know everything, because I'm not a developer and my knowledge is limited in this area. However I'm aware of certain facts that makes me question your 2x more assets claim and I would need to hear some good explanation, before I will believe you.

We know for a fact 8-9 GB/s would bottleneck 10 TF GPU, and that's why AMD build 5700 XT with 448 GB/s memory BW. Such powerful GPU can obviously only use non-streaming textures in realtime because otherwise it would be bottlenecked to the extreme.

I can understand why SDD is so important, because it can quickly fill up streaming memory pool with data for for the next couple of seconds. But why do you think you need SDD 8-9 GB/s transfer speed to fill lets say 1 GB streaming memory pool required for the next second. Can you explain?
We can speculate all we want. For example there is even a chance PS5 will have better rez and frames Instead XsX because geometry engine and tempest will take load of the GPU that XsX needs to deal with. That’s speculation because we have no idea.

Regarding ssd speed and assets it’s plain, e..g instead of holding gfx assets of a full room in ram e.g. 9gig, on PS5 you can stream another 9 gig as you turn making the room 18gig, aka twice the assets. Directly from Sony’s streaming example.

Whether pooling is even necessary on PS5 under most occasion is another matter. Those cache scrubbers seem to point to ssd stream pushing straight to usable GPU memory in real-time. Not much reason for them being there otherwise.
 
Last edited:

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
4,717
9,047
525
You guys attack the messenger but what Grannel has said is just a common sense considering what we already know about PS5 and XSX specs. I'm 100% sure if Grannel would prise playstation then you guys would overlook he hasnt made any new games lately and prise him. But because he says a good thing about XSX you guys are desperately trying to find anything just to discredit him.

There's no need to be desperate, he's telling us lies that the PlayStation 5 will struggle with open world games and won't have Real-Time Ray Tracing.

You want me to ignore those lies and believe him on everything else? Let's not forget that we can see that the consoles are close in power, but he still says the difference between both consoles are staggering.

We can look at these 3 main factors and conclude that he's not even reliable, even if he's a former Sony dev.

But look at some members from XboxGAF. They know the Lockhart will be weaker than the PS5 and XSX, but somehow the Lockhart will not struggle with open world games?
 

TBiddy

Member
Mar 16, 2015
4,712
6,599
830
Denmark
Why would i need to educate myself when you said it yourself what is the difference which resebles exactly Lockhart and SEX.

Because you clearly dont know the difference. I even posted it for you earlier. At least have the decency to read what you’re responding to.
 

Tamy

Banned
Apr 9, 2020
161
503
280
But look at some members from XboxGAF. They know the Lockhart will be weaker than the PS5 and XSX, but somehow the Lockhart will not struggle with open world games?

What? xboxGAF? Are you saying the mods here are biased towards xbox? seriously? lol

The reason is that lockhart games will run at 1080p.
PS5 games will run at 4K

this is a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference in terms of TFlops you need!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZywyPL
Jan 29, 2019
5,688
6,126
495
When you start digging into peoples past like that, you're going down a road to some scary shit
This is not like they looked at their family pictures on Facebook and tried to figure out where they live... People want to know if a source is credible, someone who made a comment on public forums on a topic that has proven contentious to say the least... So that someone goes and check out public information to check his credibility is fair... However you could argue that people have wayyyy too much time on their hands.
 

DForce

Member
Nov 23, 2017
4,717
9,047
525
What? xboxGAF? Are you saying the mods here are biased towards xbox? seriously? lol

The reason is that lockhart games will run at 1080p.
PS5 games will run at 4K

this is a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference in terms of TFlops you need!
Where in my post does it say anything about mods?

You clearly did not understand the point of my post.
 

thelastword

Banned
Apr 7, 2006
11,734
11,937
2,000
You guys attack the messenger but what Grannel has said is just a common sense considering what we already know about PS5 and XSX specs. I'm 100% sure if Grannel would prise playstation then you guys would overlook he hasnt made any new games lately and prise him. But because he says a good thing about XSX you guys are desperately trying to find anything just to discredit him.
What? getting public info on someone about his career is attacking the messenger?......If you are going to do surgery or need a doctor or alternatively a lawyer, will you take one who has a bad rap, lies a lot and has several bad reviews online, will you trust them or use their word as fact and for reference?.....People have been using his Sony credentials to prop him as an authority, even when he hadn't worked on anything for over a decade, even when he was at Sony, that his roles in the games he listed is kinda dubious......Nobody who does that, should now play the victim and expect to get away scotch free. You know how many times this guy has been quoted as an authority in the gaming press and how many threads were created from his words on forumdom, people taking his word as gospel.....It just shows a lack of professionalism and lots of sensationalism and lies around gaming these days.....People would rather push lies, just for their prescribed angle.....Cue PS5 is 9.2TF to this day.....even after the reveal, certainly this can't be the right way to go about things and to properly discuss the differences between these consoles.

As for common sense? Grannel said: PS5 would struggle with open world games and RT, Grannell said the differences is staggering between PS5 and Series X, favoring Series X, but somehow it's all common sense coming from his cup? What did he say about PS5's faster SSD, it's higher clocks which affects RT just as CU will, what did he say on the geometry engine and cache scrubbers or the Dual Sense controller and Tempest Engine? Anytime a developer bashes and downplays PS5, it's common sense.....It was the same way with Dynamic Voltage Games......Then look at anytime Quantum Error, Godfall or a RAD dev say something about P55, then all these games look like shit, but Dynamic Voltage Games looks amazing.and tears graphical ass....Look, all these devs mentioned above are current and more accomplished devs than Grannell and Dynamic Voltage, yet see the reaction from certain fans...….You look at what some said of the RAD technical engineer Andrea Pessino......I mean how can you doubt or berate a guy who knows graphics and code like this guy and then present the lies of Grannell and Dynamic Voltage as common sense speakers and lightsources in this dark era, when everything they have said has proven to be FUD by actual devs working on PS5 with actual dev kits....Some are even taking bets on PS5, they are that confident in the hardware....
 

pawel86ck

Banned
Jan 27, 2018
2,122
3,223
430
We can speculate all we want. For example there is even a chance PS5 will have better rez and frames Instead XsX because geometry engine and tempest will take load of the GPU that XsX needs to deal with. That’s speculation because we have no idea.

Regarding ssd speed and assets it’s plain, e..g instead of holding gfx assets of a full room in ram e.g. 9gig, on PS5 you can stream another 9 gig as you turn making the room 18gig, aka twice the assets. Directly from Sony’s streaming example.

Whether pooling is even necessary on PS5 under most occasion is another matter. Those cache scrubbers seem to point to ssd stream pushing straight to usable GPU memory in real-time. Not much reason for them being there otherwise.
I thought geometry engine is just a fancy name for the universal feature in RDNA 2 architecture. Mesh shaders in XSX (or even on Nv GPUs) cant do the same job?

Also according to developers XSX also has a dedicated audio chip, although we dont know much about it unlike tempest chip.
 

ZywyPL

Member
Nov 27, 2018
4,475
7,505
675
Lots of arguing about TF differences. Perhaps time for some baseline agreements?

XSX = 18% more rendering power
PS5 = 2x asset delivery

Conclusion : XsX can deliver a sharper image. PS5 can deliver an image with higher quality asset, or more variety of assets. Both logical conclusions from spec info deliverer directly by platform holders.

Thank you for your time have a good time!

What does the "higher quality" exactly mean? Higher poly models? That's what GPU allows for. Better shaders? Same. Better shadows? Same. Better lightning? Same. Higher draw distance? Same. More particles? Same. Better tessellation? Same. The list just goes on and on.

There's absolutely zero point in storing/streaming 20M polygon models when the GPU can only draw 15M, unless you're aiming for serious framerate or resolution drop.

The only graphical aspect that isn't computing power bound is the textures - now, X1X already does 4K textures, so I cannot believe that next-gen consoles will have a single issue with that, so let's assume that PS5 will be indeed able to stream 8K textures instead of 4K (which I doubt given their size and 825GB drive space) - will anyone be able to see the any difference/extra details at 4K or less? Press X to doubt.
 

sircaw

has bigger MS points balance than reaction score.
Jul 3, 2019
6,298
33,741
825
A local pond.
What? getting public info on someone about his career is attacking the messenger?......If you are going to do surgery or need a doctor or alternatively a lawyer, will you take one who has a bad rap, lies a lot and has several bad reviews online, will you trust them or use their word as fact and for reference?.....People have been using his Sony credentials to prop him as an authority, even when he hadn't worked on anything for over a decade, even when he was at Sony, that his roles in the games he listed is kinda dubious......Nobody who does that, should now play the victim and expect to get away scotch free. You know how many times this guy has been quoted as an authority in the gaming press and how many threads were created from his words on forumdom, people taking his word as gospel.....It just shows a lack of professionalism and lots of sensationalism and lies around gaming these days.....People would rather push lies, just for their prescribed angle.....Cue PS5 is 9.2TF to this day.....even after the reveal, certainly this can't be the right way to go about things and to properly discuss the differences between these consoles.

As for common sense? Grannel said: PS5 would struggle with open world games and RT, Grannell said the differences is staggering between PS5 and Series X, favoring Series X, but somehow it's all common sense coming from his cup? What did he say about PS5's faster SSD, it's higher clocks which affects RT just as CU will, what did he say on the geometry engine and cache scrubbers or the Dual Sense controller and Tempest Engine? Anytime a developer bashes and downplays PS5, it's common sense.....It was the same way with Dynamic Voltage Games......Then look at anytime Quantum Error, Godfall or a RAD dev say something about P55, then all these games look like shit, but Dynamic Voltage Games looks amazing.and tears graphical ass....Look, all these devs mentioned above are current and more accomplished devs than Grannell and Dynamic Voltage, yet see the reaction from certain fans...….You look at what some said of the RAD technical engineer Andrea Pessino......I mean how can you doubt or berate a guy who knows graphics and code like this guy and then present the lies of Grannell and Dynamic Voltage as common sense speakers and lightsources in this dark era, when everything they have said has proven to be FUD by actual devs working on PS5 with actual dev kits....Some are even taking bets on PS5, they are that confident in the hardware....

What's worse is you get people like Matt from ResetEra that say the difference between the two systems is hardly anything and he has/working knowledge on both systems.

People won't believe that guy but they will believe this Grannel chap and like the reasons you stated he is not even in the loop at all.

People Like dealer really are like the gaming equivalent of Russian propaganda.
They do so much damage to gaming.
 
  • Like
Reactions: thelastword